Squidmasher's page

Squidmasher wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Before you go saying that Ezren is quite decent, take a look at 7th-level Ezern's spellbook. Remember, his bonded object allows him to cast any of the myriad emergency spells in those pages once a day. Imagine how many spells a 7th-level wizard might have access to, since versatility is the Wizard's forte.

To be honest, I only looked at the first level versions. Who's still playing pregens by 7th? By then, I assume that any new players would have made their own characters. They wouldn't exactly be new players anymore.

What about the situation of a new player showing up to a game where everyone's ready to play a 7th level scenario? Should he just go home?

That didn't really occur to me; in Denver where I play, we sign up for games in advance and 1st level tables are almost always available.

Before you go saying that Ezren is quite decent, take a look at 7th-level Ezern's spellbook. Remember, his bonded object allows him to cast any of the myriad emergency spells in those pages once a day. Imagine how many spells a 7th-level wizard might have access to, since versatility is the Wizard's forte.

To be honest, I only looked at the first level versions. Who's still playing pregens by 7th? By then, I assume that any new players would have made their own characters. They wouldn't exactly be new players anymore.

Squidmasher wrote:

Pregens are extremely suboptimal and weak as a whole. It's best to help new players build characters, and it doesn't take long at all before someone becomes proficient enough in the system to exceed the pregens.

If you mean by suboptimal and weak, that they aren't uber-optimized, then you are correct. Otherwise, they are completely playable and quite balanced for a good play experience.

Hmm... I guess on closer inspection of the ones for PFS, they seem better than I remembered. I might be thinking of the ones in the older AP volumes; those were shameful at times. Kyra, Ezren, and Merisiel actually do look quite decent, although I still object to a lot of the choices with Valeros.

The problem with making new players a "better" first character, is that they may not know the rules to make their optimized character work in practice. The pregens have basic feats, abilities, etc that won't overwhelm the new player. Sure, you can make a better rogue than Merisiei, but that's because you know all the rules. Newbies won't.

It's not hard to make a fighter who's both better and easier to play than Valeros.

I haven't read throught this whole thread, so forgive me if this was mentioned. I think an AP where the characters have signed a contract with an advanced contract devil at some time in the past, and now realize that they screwed up big time and adventure to find this devil and destroy the contracts. It could start of with research quests into what needs to be done to break the contract, learning the devils truename, and eventually learning how to find and defeat the defeat, taking the characters to Hell itself.

As cool as ideas as this are, I don't think Paizo can safely do them because they absolutely rely on players acting a certain way to work. Its one thing to make a linear plot, but another to force the players into a certain course of action that a lot of characters (like Paladins) would never do.

Pregens are extremely suboptimal and weak as a whole. It's best to help new players build characters, and it doesn't take long at all before someone becomes proficient enough in the system to exceed the pregens.

Inner Sea Primer has a Fighter archetype for it.

@Fog - what is the "roll for attractiveness" thing? Is that some alternate rule?

Probably someone's house rule. It doesn't make much sense to me, though; if you absolutely insist on players rolling for attractiveness, why would the distribution be uniform? Wouldn't it make more sense to fit it to a normal curve?

Well, looks like I got here a little late. Thank you in advanced for providing your feedback; it's cool enough that this contest exists, but the fact that you'll even grant those of us who lost an honest and useful critique is amazing. Here's my item:

Helm of the Owlbear
Aura moderate transmutation and enchantment; CL 11th
Slot Head; Price 15,000 gp; Weight 10 lbs.
Description
This crude helmet is fashioned from the head and upper pelt of an owlbear, partially covering its wearer’s face with the visage of one of the fearsome hybrids. The helmet grants its wearer some of the fury and vision of an owlbear, providing a +1 morale bonus on Will saves and a +5 competence bonus on Perception checks. If the helm’s wearer has the Rage class feature, it grants him an extra 3 rounds of rage per day.

Additionally, whenever the wearer of the helm is raging, either with the class feature or the rage spell, the helm partially transforms the wearer into an owlbear. Although the wearer’s size category does not change, he gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, two primary claw attacks which each deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 for if the wearer is small), and a +1 natural armor bonus as a thick coat of feathers sprouts from his skin. If the wearer already has claws when raging, their damage die increases by one step (1d8 for medium, 1d6 for small, etc).
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape IV, rage Cost 7,500 gp

Well, about one minute to the reveal. Time to hope for the best.

Squidmasher wrote:

I think your player is missing the point of Golarion. The NPC's aren't there to be memorable; they're there to support the party's adventures. I think one of Golarion's biggest strengths is that it doesn't have any Elminsters running around in it.

That was explicitly one of the things he complained about. No memorable NPC's, no metaplot, no advancement of the world. And I can't really say that I disagree. The world feels too static. Not much moves forward, no big wars between nations ( besides Molthune/Nirmathas, which seems to be going on eternally ), no archmages plotting against each other.

I know some people like the idea of the PC's being the only ones who do anything of note, but at least for me that makes the world less immersive. If there are such powerful forces of evil running around, there need to be some equally powerful heroes pushing back. And it cannot all fall on the PC's shoulders, who conveniently advance in a way where they don't get stepped on by some of the more mightier things running around.

I like Golarions setting a lot, but it really feels like it could need a few kicks to make it feel more alive. Giving players a few memorable and powerful good NPC's to look up to would help. IMO, of course.

And, yeah, for me the strength of the Forgotten Realms was that it had Elminster, the Seven Sisters and more of those guys running around. I wish Golarion would be more like that.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. This is just a playstyle difference between us, and I don't think either one of has an objectively better position than the other.

Personally, I don't like either the old Forgotten Realms or the changes they made for 4e. I don't like the Harpers and Elminster and all of the high-level good guys running around because it makes the threats seem so much less dangerous. There's no real reason to strive against villains like Halaster or Manshoon or the Red Wizards, since all of those level 30+ NPC heroes probably won't let their evil plans go too far anyway. It bothers me quite a bit that the strongest forces for good are stronger than the strongest forces for evil without any help from the PC's. The ongoing metaplot, at least to me, seems to force the PC's out of the limelight, since the plot will always advance a certain way regardless of what they do. You can certainly make changes at the lower level and in local areas, but the players can never star in a plot that covers all of Faerun because there are more qualified heroes out there who are motivated to stop evil.

Also, the fact that every major player in the world is above level 20 puts me off as well (at least in the 3rd edition version, which is the version with which I am most familiar). The PC's are practically guaranteed they'll never be powerful enough to fight the actual major villains, since the game is designed for levels 1-20 and it's a pain to work beyond those bounds. This is another area where I prefer Golarion's style. According to Magic of the Inner Sea, Razmir is only a 19th level Wizard. One of the most powerful evil mages in the world and certainly the most vicious tyrant in the northeastern Avistan isn't epic level. A well-built 15th or 16th level party can challenge him, and they don't even have to break the framework of the game to do so. It makes the major portions of the setting so much more accessible to individual campaigns when every major NPC and his dog isn't a CR 20+ opponent.

However, I still object to the changes WotC made to Forgotten Realms in 4th Edition. Although they mostly resolved my complaints of too many gods (another subject for another time) and too many powerful NPC's, it was unfair of them to change the world that drastically. While old FR isn't my cup of tea, I recognize that people like you enjoy it quite a bit, and there's nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of settings that I do like, such as Eberron and Golarion, out there as it is without having to butcher existing ones into a form I enjoy. Let Forgotten Realms be Forgotten Realms, and let Golarion be Golarion. I don't want a ton of Elminsters in Golarion any more than I want them removed from FR. It contradicts each setting's greatest strength and appeal and accomplishes nothing but half-satisfying fans of the opposite setting.

Derail aside, I would be in favor of a Brevoy RP. It could be a great political intrigue campaign, something I'm not sure Paizo has done yet.

Erik Freund wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

I'd love to have an AP centered on Absalom, that would be a urban AP I'd like to play.

James and Sean have been quite explicit that Absalom is the "PFS playground" and won't likely get any module or AP support going forward. (Though there are some 3.5 modules set there, like Gallery of Evil and Hangman's Noose.)

That's a damn shame and withholds one of their most interesting places of their world from people who are not members of PFS.

I had just today a player complainabout the lack of memorable recurring characters in Golarion and I think Absalom would be one of the places to find them.

I think your player is missing the point of Golarion. The NPC's aren't there to be memorable; they're there to support the party's adventures. I think one of Golarion's biggest strengths is that it doesn't have any Elminsters running around in it.

karkon wrote:

Pathfinder came out in 2009 right? 36/19=1.8 characters lost per month?

Either you are playing in a lot of games or you are not doing something right.

A skilled GM can easily kill 2 characters/month. That's just ½ character per session if you play once a week.

Since when is GM skill measured by how many characters they kill?

Well, this looks way too interesting not to get involved in somehow. Let's see what I roll, and I'll post something in a few hours (or days, if it's really difficult).

1d100 ⇒ 16: Undine
1d100 ⇒ 29: Merfolk
1d100 ⇒ 78: Vodyanoi
1d100 ⇒ 66: Girtablilu
1d100 ⇒ 91: Aberration-based humanoid

Wow, that's looking like quite the potential for aquatic stuff. I'll have to hit up the Advanced Race Guide playtest to make that last race. Also, I have no idea what a Girtablilu is; I'm going to need help with that.

I let PCs know the exact health total of their fellow adventurers since I don't limit communication between party members. Why wouldn't another friendly character let the Cleric know how he was feeling and if he needed healing? When it comes to enemies, I just give the players a rough approximation (usually less or more than half, as well as barely scratched or nearly dead).

Worldwound or Absalom would be my votes.

Also, I hate to be this negative, but I would have absolutely zero interest in a Mana Wastes AP. It's completely unfair to anyone who wants to play a caster; I think it's bad design to rule out such a huge section of the game's classes by setting an entire AP there.

While it makes perfect sense for smart villains to target PC gear for destruction or theft, I don't do it when I DM. My players don't think it's fun at all, and when I play, I wouldn't want my gear tampered with either. I'm sure some groups enjoy plotlines based on the theft or destruction of equipment, but mine doesn't, so we don't do it.

Thanks for the clarification, everyone. Wraithstrike, you confirmed how I read it originally is correct (honestly, if the two didn't work together, I wouldn't make this character). Daryl, I have the 14 STR already, but thank you for the advice.

I'm looking at making an Aldori Swordlord character, but I have a rules question on the interaction of Weapon Finesse and Power Attack when using an Aldori Dueling Sword. While there is nothing in the description of either Power Attack or Weapon Finesse (at least as far as I saw; I might be missing something) that prohibits a character from using both feats at once, part of the sword's description worries me:

you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to

apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength
modifier on attack rolls with an Aldori dueling sword
sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon.
You can also wield an Aldori dueling sword in
two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your
Strength bonus to damage.

(Emphasis mine)

Does the "also" imply that you can only weapon finesse an Aldori Dueling Sword when you wield it in one hand? If so, that seems to significantly cut down on the damaging capability of a swordlord as well as hampering the usefulness of Aldori Dueling Mastery.

The character I am making is for PFS play, so house ruling this away is not an option.

Extremely minor spoiler here about Irovetti:

Definitely Razmir. The idea of a mortal pretending to be a god (and succeeding) in a world with real gods is just so awesome.

I remember James Jacobs mentioned in another thread that each Horseman is roughly CR 35. They're meant to be way more powerful than demon lords, because there are only four of them.

It doesn't matter when Pathfinder #14 was published relative to the old campaign setting. The Inner Sea World Guide was published after both of them, and it's the official campaign setting book now.

Stealth.

Follow-up: When you say we can only get level 2 or 3 potions within PA requirements, does that mean spell level (invisibility vs. say, mage armor) or casting level (level 3 potency vs. level 1)?

It means the potion's spell level. The caster level is always the minimum needed to cast the spell: 1st Caster Level for a level 1 spell, 3rd Caster Level for a level 2 spell, and 5th Caster Level for a level 3 spell.

Well crap. That is weak. That means the extend potion discoveries for Alchemists are virtually worthless in PFS, no?

Thankfully, that discovery is optional. In any case, you can still use it on potions that you bought instead of made.

Response

You don't really need to scrap the poison or the Torgan Touch, but you do need to make them less brutal. The Vion poison is way too powerful; the DC scales too high and the penalty for failure is pretty much death. If I were you, I would make the DC somewhere in the 11-13 range and the effect something like 1d2 Dex or Str damage. Then you could make racial feats that allow a Vion to increase the effects or DC of his poison. Torgan touch could be reworked similarly. Make it automatic stabilization as a standard action, and then add racial feats that allow it to act as Cure Poison or Remove Disease instead. But as it stands, both abilities are far too powerful to hand out to races meant for PCs.

As for Hobgoblins, I can understand your viewpoint. I would nerf Sneaky and Scholar to +2 each, and then I would change Resilient to DR 1/Adamantine or something like that.

Based on the race building guide, here are my evaluations of the races. Remember, a race should only have 10 points.

Kheros
Ability Bonuses: 4 points.
Slow and Steady: -2 points, like the Dwarf trait.
Stability: 2 points. Like the Dwarf trait.
Unapologetic: 1 point. I give this a point because this race will make a lot of Fighters and Barbarians with those adjustments, and so Intimidate will be significantly more useful for this race than Diplomacy.
Battle Ready: 2 points.
Gore: 6 points. This is a brutal natural attack.
Rhino Hide: 4 points.
Just like Home: 1 point. Circumstantial, but very good in those circumstances.
Keep Going: 1 point. Circumstantial, but that is a HUGE bonus it gives in that circumstance.
Weapon Familiarity: 1 point.

Total: 20. Way too powerful.

Overall, this race is a bit weird, and you definitely break standard conventions in making races. For example, racial bonuses to skills shouldn't exceed +2, except when it comes to races with extra modes of mobility such as climbing or swimming and the skills associated with that movement. Also, your mechanics for the Gore attack seem very convoluted and odd. If I were you, I would rework it as your standard 1d8+Str gore attack and give a free bull rush if you charge with it.

Torga

I could give this race a point analysis, but that would be pointless because of the Natural Healers and Torgan Touch abilities. Those two can't really be evaluated in the point system, and they're my two biggest issues with this race. First, races should really only get a +2 bonus to any skill except in the cases I outlined above. Second, Torgan Touch is effectively a MUCH better version of Cure Disease and Resist Poison that can be cast multiple times per day. If you get rid of Torgan Touch and reduce Natural Healers and Nature Sense to +2 bonuses, this race will be in line with the core races.

Vion

Ability Adjustments: 8 points.
Low-Light Vision: 1 point.
Aquatic/Natural Swimmers: 6 points.
Predator Visage: 3 points. Another convention-breaker.
Claw and Fang: 8 points.
Weapon Familiarity: 0 points.

Total: 26 points. Way overpowered.

The poison-related abilities are troublesome. That poison they get is absolutely ridiculous, and should either be heavily nerfed or removed entirely. As it is, it puts the race over the limit for being in line with the core seven on its own. And I don't think Poison Resistance actually exists within the rules.

Hobgoblin

Ability Adjustments: 12 points.
Darkvision: 2 points.
Alert: 1 point.
Keen Senses: 1 point.
Sneaky: 2 point.
Scholar: 2 points.
Resilient: 6 points. DR is awesome, even if it's only for one attack.

Total: 26 points. Really overpowered.

I would recommend just using the Hobgoblin from the Bestiary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall, these races are all quite overpowered and break many common conventions in making races. There are a few ways you can fix this, as detailed below.

1) Rework the races to be more in line with the core races.
2) Do away with the core seven races entirely, and only allow players to be these so they're all balanced with each other. If you do this, I would recommend that you apply the Advanced simple template from the Bestiary to compensate for the characters being more powerful.
3) Give characters who play one of the core races instead of these an extra level to keep them balanced with these races. Still apply the Advanced template to all creatures.

Right. If you're playing straight Pathfinder, then you're stuck using spells, spell-like abilities, etc.

Now, there's a few non-Pathfinder things (such as the epic Legendary Dreadnaught, if I recall properly), that can ignore DR. But in general, if something has DR/- then there's no way to ignore it.

Greater Penetrating Strike goes through it. Paladins who are using Smite Evil go through it.

I play an 8th level Sorcerer in PFS who has no knowledge skills whatsoever. I also have a 3rd level Fighter in PFS whose only knowledge is dungeoneering. Both of them get along just fine. I never said you should dump Int; I just said it helps that you don't need to put any points into it as a Gunslinger. True Strike really isn't too helpful if you're casting it yourself, because you're spending your standard action to cast it to get the attack bonus next turn. You'd probably be better off with just taking two attacks, especially as a class who targets touch AC; you're nearly guaranteed to hit most enemies anyway. Gunslinger/Wizard isn't a particularly strong combo; certainly no better than standard Gunslinger, and leagues behind an archer.

But for Pathfinder Society organized Play, where resource balance is a HUGE thing, it is just... wrong. And Rich Parents isn't an option there, though selling one the musket for half price is.

Resource balance is considerably easier in Society play than it is in home campaigns. At least, that's my experience of it; yours may vary. By the time you hit 2nd level, you'll probably have an average of 1350 gp if you picked up all the treasure, even if you don't play up at all. That's about 450 over the standard recommended WBL for 2nd, and enough to buy a masterwork pistol. Assuming you start with a musket and the ammo, you still have all that ammo for your new masterwork pistol.

And it's still hard to make a low-level gunslinger decent, even if he has a free masterwork gun. You still can't use Deadly Aim or apply your Dex modifier to damage, meaning you get to begin the fight by dealing an average of 4.5 or 6.5 damage on the first round of combat before effectively wasting your next turn reloading. Sure, you almost always hit with that touch attack, but the damage is pathetic. If you dip into Wizard for a level to get a free masterwork pistol, you effectively just sold off a level of your character advancement to get 1,300 gp. Note that this doesn't really benefit you at all; you get a +1 bonus to hit with the pistol because it's masterwork, but you don't increase your Base Attack, so you're still no better off in the attack bonus department than a standard 2nd-level Gunslinger. If you want to use the Wizard spells, you have to put points into Intelligence at character creation, which you don't actually use for anything Gunslinger-related, and you suffer a spell failure chance if you still want to wear armor. Additionally, you put off all of your deeds and ability to add Dex to gun damage for another level, which is downright painful.

Or, the Gunslinger can take the Rich Parents trait and easily have a masterwork gun by 2nd level without dumping out a level he absolutely needs into a class that doesn't synergize with Gunslinger at all.

I don't know about the people around you and roleplaying, but I'm not seeing an issue where I am. The reason why most discussions on the boards are about the rules is that people don't need to ask about clarification on roleplay, but they do on the rules. There isn't too much to say about roleplaying on the internet; you do it in person, and there are very few ways to do it wrong. But the rules are long and sometimes confusing, so opportunities for mistakes are frequent. Learning to roleplay isn't something you can do on the internet, so people don't really talk about it much here. Doesn't mean they don't do it in real life.

Where did you get the idea that Drow Nobles are automatically considered allowed for play? They're in the Bestiary, not the Core Rulebook, for a reason. They're only allowed with DM approval.

Is it possible to use a complete set of full plate with a headband? Or would the helmet prevent the magic of the headband from working?

Yes, you can use a headband with full plate. Full plate, like any other armor, only takes up your armor/robes slot.

Ultimate Combat will have some rules on vehicle combat. It's pretty likely that will include chariots.

I removed some bickering. If you must continue this topic, please take it to another thread.

Sorry about all that. I went too far in an unrelated thread. Thanks for your patience in dealing with all this stuff, though.

Victory condition: Defeat the encounter. Since it's a mindless creature, who is typically a sentry getting around qualifies. And since it has +0 Perception, there is also Invis and walk around.

Also, you don't move at half speed when prone. That is only when not prone.

And you can assume a higher level golem if you'd like. Mindless creatures are free XP, so the party won't mind.

Not even touching on such things as the problem with the Berserk ability here. That makes things a lot worse, mostly because it means there is no golem.

Who uses a creature with +0 Perception as a sentry?

You move at half speed while prone. That's the rule. Grease can stop you from moving at all while walking, but it doesn't restrict prone movement.

You're missing the point about the whole party thing. I was saying that there's no way a Wizard can beat a level-appropriate golem alone without a pretty severe expenditure of resources.

Berserk is only for a few golems. I picked a Flesh Golem for my example because I wanted to pick a golem at a reasonable level.

Well, this thread was interesting and inspiring at the start...

Sorry about all this. I guess I kind of got carried away.

If the golem is about APL then the casters have access to a fun little thing in summon monster 5. It's the Ankylosaurus, DC 23 fort or stun every hit (only +14 to hit though). Against Clay Golem CR 10 AC 24 fort +4. That's essentially 50% chance for the golem to be stunned each round. Granted you could just do a dazing acid arrow and get better results with the same slot, but that won't soak hits and takes a feat (that you're probably going take anyways).

Constructs are immune to being stunned. A Dazing Acid Arrow still doesn't do nearly enough damage to kill the golem.

Golems also have low HP, so it still works fine.

That particular golem has 79 HP, no save over +3 (at a level at which you have a spell DC of 17-20, without trying depending on spell level), is mindless, and can't see very well.

So let's see...

Silent Image, walk around.
Fog spell, walk around.
Grease, walk around.
Glitterdust, walk around.

If for some reason you want to actually fight the thing, even though there's no point in doing so cast summons. Or better yet, let the Druid's pet solo it. After all I never assumed the Wizard was alone, just that there were ways around SR. I'm not quite sure where the no martials thing came from, but Druid pets aren't martial classes in any case.

I still don't see how Silent Image beats golems. It can still hear you in fog. It can still move at half speed while prone from slipping in Grease, and it can get up once it's out of the spell's radius. It can still hear you with Glitterdust.

If you want to fight it with summons, your piddly little creatures are still going to have a hard time breaking through its DR. Assuming you use Summon Monster IV, your best damage dealers are Hound Archons, Lions, and Grizzly Bears. But they still have trouble getting through DR. Let's assume you got the golem with Grease and Glitterdust, which gives it an effective AC of 14. I'm going to run the DPR on a Grizzly Bear factoring in the golem's DR, but I won't bother with the Hound Archon or Lion. If you're that curious about how it would look, you can run it on your own. I'm sure they won't be much better than the bear.

Grizzly Bear: .65(3.5)+.05*.65(3.5)=2.38875. Grizzly has 3 attacks just like that, so that's a total of 7.16625 DPR. Over the 7 round duration of the spell, that's a grand total of around 50.13675 damage. Not enough to kill the golem. If you were a Conjurer with Augment Summoning, your bear would probably manage to kill it, but if not, you're still spending two of your highest level spells killing this thing, which is a pretty significant expenditure of resources.

As for your Druid argument: If you have the rest of your party and you're fighting a monster of CR=APL, the fight will be easy. You're just stating the obvious here.

Low magic means you do not get any of those stats. Hell, high magic still gets you auto hit.

But with my low magic rules, you can get high AC/CMD. The whole thing is built around getting you the same numbers (or close) as the ones you get in high magic.

Quite the generalization in any case. A sword and board Fighter can get 25 AC at 4th level even under my rules without taking Dodge, Combat Expertise, or Shield Focus, which means the Owlbear, the primary grapple monster at that level, needs to roll a 17 on its attack roll to hit with its grab, and then roll again to hit CMD (albeit with a much higher chance, but it's still not a formality). At 8th level, the same Fighter can have 29 AC(+11 armor, +4 shield, +2 Dex, +2 dodge) without any sort of AC boosting feats, which means your average monster still has to roll about 15+ to hit him. This trend continues through the levels; AC is not just a formality if you devote actual resources to it.

Actually, golems are rather weak in general, and weaker after the crippling, so not really. Meanwhile spells like Glitterdust end fights, even though the fight does not technically end after it is cast, the rest is just making it official. Other enemies with SR can do more when crippled. It's still not going to take much resources.

Golems aren't the strongest monsters, to be sure, but your summoned monsters are pretty crappy against CR appropriate monsters anyway. The DR that just about every golem packs makes it a definite pain for your summons to bypass, and they have to take the golem's attacks while they're whittling away at its hp. Glitterdust helps your monster not get torn to shreds in one round, but it doesn't end the fight. You make the enemy a lot less effective, but you don't win with it. You have to seal the deal with damage from some source, and summoned monsters aren't exactly the best at damage. But these abstractions aren't going to get us anywhere.

Suppose you're a 7th level Wizard who doesn't necessarily know he's going to be running into golems today, but he encounters a Flesh Golem. How do you handle it?

They do when the sources are magical.

As for enemies, still plenty of those that fly without magic, even if you ignore that most "low magic" means "low magic for you, not low magic for the rest of the world". Teleportation is an absolute requirement because short distance teleportation is the only way to escape a decent grapple, medium distance is the only way to escape combats, and long distance is the only way to get to where you need to be within a reasonable time frame. Potions of anything are incredibly overpriced, and waste actions. Meanwhile Haste items are a free action.

The sources aren't magical anymore. Being built into the character, they're all just sort of there. Since the system assumes you have those bonuses, though, they need to come from somewhere, and low-magic is more flavor as it is anything. I want to play low-magic Pathfinder, not another system, so I make as few changes as possible to keep the game working as it should. Making sure the bonuses are there through building them into the characters accomplishes that.

"Low Magic" does not mean "low magic for you, not low magic for the rest of the world" in my campaign. That's a straw man. I explicitly stated that low magic applies to everyone, not just the players. The enemy doesn't have magical flight, Haste, or teleportation either.

"Decent" grapples can be avoided by having high AC and CMD. Escaping combats isn't a strict necessity, and you can accomplish that with clever tactics or just running like hell, depending on your class. Long distance teleportation isn't a big deal because no one has it in my low-magic campaigns, so the idea of a "reasonable time frame" is vastly different than it is in a normal magic campaign. I changed the way potions work to make them less of an action waste, seeing as anyone can make them in my campaign, the price issue is considerably less important. I do have a few special materials for weapons that act as if they had the Speed property as well.

Squidmasher wrote:

And inside of core, I can't imagine there's much I failed to mention. So assuming you're playing strict Pathfinder with no 3.5 materials like I do, SR is still a pretty big obstacle unless you pick your race and two feats just to bypass it. And at that point, SR largely becomes a formality, but hey, if you went to lengths like that, you deserve to bypass SR.

Except that as stated, the first point alone covers it. Anything after it, such as that point is only mentioned for the sake of completeness. Therefore it is not an obstacle at all. It isn't even something you will necessarily notice, as all those SR: No spells are things you'd happily cast anyways.

But none of those spells actually win the encounter. You have to spend them and then a pretty hefty number of Summon spells, because even a de-buffed golem is still probably better than anything you can summon.

Depends on the monster. There's two types. The golems, and the everything else with SR.

The first type is beyond trivial, due to their abysmal saves. Any indirect save or die that is SR: No, and that the construct type does not grant immunity to, such as Glitterdust and they're shut down. You can also auto win with Silent Image, Grease, any fog spell...

The second type might or might not be difficult, but save or loses still work fine.

Glitterdust is a good way to handle it, although blinding a golem still doesn't really put it at the point where you can beat it with a summon. Silent Image needs some further clarification as to how you're using it. A prone golem can still move half speed and even at is penalties to attack rolls and AC can still probably beat any summon you throw at it, assuming your summon doesn't also fall in the grease. Fog applies to your summons as well.

Items, feats, Assay, Arcane Mastery... As I said, mostly non core, but this is really just for completeness. The first point alone is enough to never need to make a SR check.

And inside of core, I can't imagine there's much I failed to mention. So assuming you're playing strict Pathfinder with no 3.5 materials like I do, SR is still a pretty big obstacle unless you pick your race and two feats just to bypass it. And at that point, SR largely becomes a formality, but hey, if you went to lengths like that, you deserve to bypass SR.

See previous comment. As for summons, they can finish off crippled enemies. That's all they need to do. Martial characters can't survive more than a round or two vs level appropriate opposition either. Difference is you don't care if a summon dies. And since this is PF, you aren't making a martial character who can contribute. It is not possible.

Let's keep this argument focused on SR and not get into martials for now.

Translation: Take the magic, reskin it in a way that is technically higher magic, call it lower magic, and consider that a success?

Let's not even get into the fact that most of the "low magic" types come about to try and avoid basic stat booster items, not realizing the game does not function without them. So they certainly will not reflavor them as innate abilities.

Let's not get into the utility effects, such as flight, teleportation, and haste just to name a few that are most definitely magic. And you still need those.

So higher numbers on your character sheet are automatically magic now? I realize the game assumes you need certain stats, so I address it by giving those stats without magic.

I'm not most "low magic" types. We're discussing my suggestions right now, not theirs.

As for utilities, I said I'm running low magic. That applies to the enemies, too. You don't need flight nearly as much if the enemies don't have much of it, either. The few flying creatures still around when you take out most of the outsiders are things that had natural fly speeds to begin with, and you probably weren't ever going to be able to keep up with them with a standard fly spell anyway. Teleportation isn't exactly necessary. It's nice, but you don't strictly need it. Haste isn't completely needed, but if you really like it, you can still make potions of it.

So how did you limit the game to support the removal of magic?

Is this directed at me? Because if it is, I have my list of changes posted above.

Multiple reasons.

1: SR: No spells. Even in just core, you can do everything but blast or direct save or die without ever touching a SR: Yes spell. Blasting sucks, and direct save or dies were nerfed in PF, so you're not missing anything. All enemies could have SR: level + 100, and it'd not change what you are doing one iota. In non core you can even blast and direct save or die without touching SR. But let's ignore that.

2: Bypassing SR is not that hard even if for some reason you insist on going through it. There are so many things that boost your ability to blast through SR it is quite possible to say... roll 1d20+38 at level 16, without trying that hard. Granted many of these are non core, but see the previous point for why this only matters if you insist on playing an ineffective build.

3: Any use of indirect magic bypasses SR entirely. Disintegrate (aimed at the floor) and TK (to throw various oversized weapons) are but the simplest and least creative examples. In 3.5 there's also buffing (there aren't any worthwhile buffs in PF). Summons work too.

1) Which spells do you use instead of direct Save or Suck/Die or blasting to win fights without the help of martial characters?

2)Can you explain this one further? I see playing an elf and taking Spell Penetration, but besides that, I don't really see any ways of boosting your bonus against SR.

3) Indirect spell use is fairly circumstantial. If there's no bridge to disintegrate under them or no stalactite to drop (or other convenient terrain feature), there's not much you can do. Summons are fairly weak in combat, and I really can't see them standing up to CR appropriate monsters in a fight for more than a round or two.

Evil Lincoln wrote:

CoDzilla wrote:

Which means Commoners and Housecats. Which is actually more interesting than the game you are left with once the magic is gone. Hint: The magic is everything, so when it's gone you are left with nothing.

Deterministic statements about a style-of-play issue?

Where do you get off telling other people what they would enjoy? The core mechanic is perfectly serviceable in low magic settings. I've done it dozens of times.

When you start to make rigid pronouncements about people's style of play, you aren't just wrong; you can't possibly be right.

Hey look, more hand waving and false statements.

Fact: D&D has magic ingrained to it. It's not removable. Even the guys who have no magic of their own have plenty of magic from others built in. Without this, they cannot function.

Fact: Because of the previous fact, removing magic means removing everything. Removing everything, of course leaves you with nothing. As any magic you leave behind breaks the game.

Fact: Because of the previous fact, Commoners and Housecats results in a more interesting game than... nothingness. After all, you are most likely a Commoner. Perhaps you even have a Housecat. Yet there are still plenty of things you can do. They are just all very mundane.

So you see, the solution to a "low magic D&D" game is to walk away from a DM who clearly has no idea what he is doing or talking about, and instead play Commoners and Housecats. That's life, if you haven't caught it yet.

You can remove the Big Six by just building the bonuses into the characters without the items being present. Start on a 25 point buy and give an ability score increase at every even level to balance the lack of stat-boosters, give a +1 bonus on all saves every 3 levels, give a +1 dodge bonus to AC every 3 levels, base weapon and armor quality off of material strength instead of magical enhancements (and add in new materials to duplicate the effect of more popular enhancements like Keen). Remove Craft Magic Arms and Armor and just let people craft with their Craft skills. Rework DR/magic to just need better materials. Add in Reserve Points from Unearthed Arcana to allow some non-magical healing, and sever potions from spellcasting by basing Brew Potion off of Craft (Potions) or Profession (Herbalist) instead of Caster Level. Handwave all spellcasting requirements for making potions. Make drinking potions a move action that doesn't provoke, add a potion bandoleer that allows people to draw them as a swift action. Lastly, ban all primary casters because they don't fit in with low-magic.