SamRoswell's page

SamRoswell wrote:

What you do at higher levels is tumble past more enemies, tumble through enemies, tumble at full speed, or some combination of the above. With the new rules what you will see is fewer people bothering;

This is simply not true. Sciencephile on here can attest - I have been using the BAB mechanic for both tumble and casting defensive for years now. There is still plenty of tumbling and such being done - and lots of casting defensively.

True there not as much auto-success as there use to be - but its still a sound tactice.

if your choice is to "move away and suffer an attack of opportunity" or "move away as a tumble and possibly suffer an attack of opportunity" the choice is pretty obvious.
...
Robert

But do you also have the 3.P alpha 3 version of the Mobility feat in your game during all that time?

Mobility (Combat)
You can easily move through a dangerous melee.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge.
Benefit: You do not provoke any attacks of opportunity due to movement this round.

If the main issue is that people can eventually perform Tumble actions (and Concentration/Spot/Listen/Search/Ride/Swim/Climb/Knowledge/Craft/et c.) without a roll, and others find that fact insulting, would it not be simpler, and more consistent, to (re-)introduce an automatic failure possibility into the skill roll mechanic? Roll a 1 on your skill check, no matter what skill, and you automatically fail.

EDIT: Oh, and I think it adds to the game for the rogue or wizard - because it is BORING to be always that good... and it is more rewarding to get that good in spite of the odds. I would prefer to have invested something, like skill focus and maxed ranks, to be able to do something than "Well, I can do this since level 8, and NEVER again shall I meet something I can't tumble (acrobate?) around..." On a related note, I houseruled in my campaigns a 1 on a skill check is always a failure, just for the thrills...

What you do at higher levels is tumble past more enemies, tumble through enemies, tumble at full speed, or some combination of the above. With the new rules what you will see is fewer people bothering; If you invest max ranks, you're matching the addition of the fighter's BAB to your DC (assuming opponents of the same level); that leaves your DEX+Class Skill Bonus (3)+Feats+d20 vs 15 (+ Environmental adjustments + 2N, where N is the total number of opponents you have attempted to tumble past). Assuming no feats, a DEX of 18, no environment penalties and only 1 enemy, you've got a 7+d20 vs 15. 8 or higher to win, or 65% chance of succeeding, always; subtract 10% for each additional enemy. Only to move through a threatened square. If you want to tumble through his square, to end up behind him, you've got a 40% chance, minus 10% for each enemy you've already tumbled past. Yes, you can invest in 1 feat to increase your odds by 15%, or two feats to increase your odds by 25%. Or you can invest in two different feats to increase your odds to 100%, and never have to worry about investing in Acrobatics at all, except for Balancing or Jumping purposes, both of which will be static DCs anyway. Use Mobility to get into place, then just stand there until your next turn and do a full round attacks until the monster is dead; Wash, rinse, repeat. Apparently it's what people want. True, you'll never get past the guys blocking the hall to take out the spellcaster in the back, but it's not important to kill him anyway; that's what your spellcaster is for...

Both are Combat Feats; you can only use one Combat Feat per round. So if you cleave, you cannot also get the Dodge bonus, if you have both feats. Also, Cleave states "As a full-round action, make a single attack". No other attacks on your turn that round.

Also, you must declare if you are using a Combat Feat "Unlike most feats, the benefits from combat feats are not always active. Unless stated otherwise, you must choose to use a combat feat before any attack rolls are made..."

Hmmm... it appears that the new definition does not restrict you to half-speed when tumbling.
On the balance, that makes it easier to move full speed until level 10 (against full progression opponents). But you lose the flexibility of moving slower to make things easier.

EDIT: Okay, so +5 penalty to DC for moving "normal speed or greater" (penalty also applies to jumping, where you used to get a bonus for such things...). So, easier to move full speed until level 5, and easier to move greater than half but not quite full until 10 (vs. SRD). So, there is more flexibility than I originally saw, but only in that things are worse than I originally read...

DC 15: Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

DC 25: Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.
Accelerated Tumbling
You try to tumble past or through enemies more quickly than normal. By accepting a -10 penalty on your Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half your speed.

So, Rogue in light armor and light load can move 30' (6 squares) normally. Tumble reduces this to 15' (3 squares). For each enemy that threatens you the DC increases. 15, 17, 19, et c.

Three squares (2 diagonal for 3.5, 2.12 diagonal in real life) isn't very far. To go full speed those DCs are now effectively 25, 27, 29, et c. And really, you just want to go through you're opponent's square, requiring a DC of 25, plus additional rolls of 17, 19, et c. for each additional enemy. Again, if you really want to get somewhere you're looking at 35 and 27, 29, et c. Not very static (unless you always know you'll be fighting a single enemy).

Personally, I always preferred the Neverwinter Nights method to keep pumping points into tumble: for every 5 ranks you get +1 Dodge bonus to AC.
If you prefer the sticks to carrots, make the tumbler re-roll for each threatened square, with all penalties stacking (i.e. 15, 17, 19 for first square, and 21, 23, 25 for second, assuming three enemies threatening each square).