Ron Podulka's page

Koldoon and others,

Perhaps I came across to strong with the Book vs. Magazine arguement. That is the least of my fears with the venture, or frustration with the loss of Dragon and Dungeon (as you say, great places for people to have their creations submitted)

It wasn't meant to be the final word on the semantics of periodicals. I think Journal is far more appropriate of a word then book or magazine. Thanks to the person who suggested it. It is just frustrating that they choose a marketing semantic to try and slide by some crazy pricing that bothers me...

I do try and support my FLGS, unfortunately there are not a ton of gaming stores where I live. In fact, I personally think (from my own xp) that they are a sort of dying breed as well. And that is truly sad IMO.

As to the discounts, not to disagree or agree with anyone.. but if people want a discount, here is what I suggest. When entering a comic or game store, ask if they have incentives for regular customer's. Everytime I have ever asked, they did have an incentive. I have lived in San Diego, FLA, Chicago Suburbs, and Minnesota. I know that is not everywhere in the known world, but I think that if I have been in a variety of places and they all tend to do business that way, then it can't be a fluke.. Then again.. I do not know how it is for people in Utah, or Kansas, or Baton Rouge for that matter. I am only speaking from my experiences and others I know in the gaming world. (and friends I have made at Gen Cons in years past). For the record, about 1/2 the time I have gotten discounts from Comic stores, I had to buy a "frequent buyer" card... Basically like 10 bucks or something.. About 1/2 those expired in a year, the others never expired.

Also, I am sure that the national bookstore chains have the same incentives across the nation so if those stores are in an area near you, you might want to give them a chance for your gaming supplies. Might be able to save a few bucks.

As to the "content" thing again... here is where I am coming from--->

I watched DDO be turned over to the world of Eberron, and the company of Turbine. I was one of the hundreds of people who thought this was a dangerous proposal for the first OFFICIAL DnD mmo. It turns out we were partly right. Eberron has been completely made generic (even the vaunted Warforged have had most of their abilities nerfed), and the rest of what made eberron unique has been eliminated or is "in planning". (am I psychic? an insider? uber? NOPE!) most of us just knew that even though WOTC wanted to push that world, for their own political/business reasons, it would have been much better to use Greyhawk, or Faerun, or even SIGIL (the city not company). This turned out to be true. I think the loss of the 2 mags, is of the same poor decision as DDO's, and I think Pathfinder's creation, while good, will be marred by pricing. Thus, another bad Decision IMO.

I think most gamers agree that there are two main groups of "us". THe old timers (anywhere from 30+ years xp, to 10+ years) and the New blood (less than 10 yrs xp). There have been a few articles written in Dragon (like the Gygax soap box article) (and since this is a thread griping about that mags demise, I assume we have all read them) pertaining to the NEED for new blood. And the fact that this industry needs growth, and future generations to sustain us. I think eliminatin the 2 mags will not help with new blood, and this pathfinder product will not hold the "new blood's " interest. Especially since New Blood is far more savvy than we were 30 years ago. They know where to shop, when to shop, how to program webpages, blah blah blah. They are not a breed you want to alienate IMO. We shall see if I am correct or not.

Now my problem with this is

1) Dragon and Dungeon were beloved. But were not "highly successful" as some might have you believe. But we still liked it.

2) There were more format changes in those 2 mags in the last 3 years than I have seen in any other magazine ever. Seriously, you guys have to agree, they were constantly searching for the right mix for the readers. But we still liked it.

3) Pathfinder is putting all it's eggs in one basket. (what if the adventure path is not to your liking, or god forbid... it is not UBER as some proclaim all Paizo products to be)

4) The pricing seems high to me, and I SPEND 40+ bucks on the hardbacks almost weekly... Not everyone will be as care-free with their gaming dollar as me. I know that people taking the time to voice their opinions, likes, dislikes, and concerns in a forum (as we all are doing) will probably spend the cash, but believe me, Paizo's Forum members will not keep Pathfinder alive by themselves. It will require far more of us than that. And I personally do not see tons of people running to the store to buy each and every issue of pathfinder month after month, and I also don't see those same people paying $18+ (subscription) when they can get it cheaper, or at a slightly higher price at the store....

You can all disagree with me, and say "Pathfinder will be the greatest thing ever!", or "Pathfinder is CHEAP at 20 bucks" etc... You may all be right. Or as more probable, you could all be very passionate people who care enough about DnD, or Paizo, or Dungeon/Dragon/Pathfinder to take your time and read and post to forums (like me). We are a small sampling of the gaming community and if we put ourselves in the "less passionate" minds of others, I think we can see that there is risk here... Lots of Risk.

I personally do not think that if all of us on these boards bought pathfinder it would be enough to sustain it. They will need THOUSANDS of more customers to break evern, and I do not think that our enthusiasm is enough to bring the buyers to the table.

Only time will tell.

My predictions (bring on the flames.. lol)

1) dragon will come back FIRST << odds 90% chance>>
2) Dungeon will come back second, if not as an addendum to Dragon magazine << odds of coming back as own magazine 30%, as an addendum 50%>>
3) DDO will be bankrupt within 18 months (after the novely of an official DnD mmo is over. they lost 70% of their subscribers already...) << odds 75% unless they get bailed out by a major player like SOE... they are in same trouble as Vanguard is, and Vanguard will be gone in 3 months or owned by SOny online>>
4) Paizo will survive and continue to be a major player in the RPG world <<100%>>
5) Pathfinder will have their pricing model seriously revised (i.e. no shipping costs and/or long term subscriptions available)<<80%>> OR
6) Pathfinder will not make it 18 months. <<20%>>

7) (the Motherload predicition) Hasbro will be dumping DnD product line, either by divesting WOTC, or just selling DnD in general. There is almost NO growth left in it. Unless DnD (whoever the current owner may be) uses their core strengths to branch further into computer RPG as well as PnP there will be very little growth for years to come, if ever). All this will happen within a few years (3) I bet. <<75%>>

Hmmm.. I wonder why they are not offering a long term subscription to Pathfinder now? Could it be, even they question the viability of this new plan? Doubt we will hear for sure on these boards their official/real answer on why no long term subscription. We might hear some marketing reason (i.e like the marketing choice to call a 96 pg monthly periodical, a book as opposed to a magazine, or journal). But if they were not concerned about the success of a product they put out, they would not be good business people. And up to this point, I think Paizo has been good business people, not to mention great game content providers.

~cheers, and once again, good luck to Paizo and WOTC, and Goodman games (I like them too, hehe)

aww heck... good luck to all the game companies out there. 8-)

Koldoon,

I appreciate all of your points. Some people will agree with them, some will not. I Personally do not think that Paizo is the end-all be-all in the gaming world. They are a terrific company and well worth supporting, but I would not say that everything they put out is great. (paraphrasing what you and others have said in response to my looooong post).

Let me sum up the points again.

1) 96 pages is NOT A BOOK. Even though acev and others might think it is. If that was the case, then people magazine, dungeon, dragon, the lost caverns of tsojcanth, Oasis of the white palm, Maxim magazine etc.. would all be books. They are not.. They are reading materials with pages just like books, but that is where the similarity ends. Now when a periodical comes out Monthly, and is sequential, I think you would be hard pressed to find people who would not call that a book. Seriously, I appreciate your loyalty, but come on.......... Is Stuff magazine a book? Mad magazine? How about TV Guide? (actually Stuff, Maxim, TV guide.. People.. they all have more than 96 pages I believe, maybe they should be called encyclopedias)

2) My arguement with the price is not necessarily the $20. I can not say for sure if it is a bad deal or a good deal. I am just going on what they are saying the format will be. If it is an incredible- incredible adventure, with a ton of useful stuff for people to use over and over, than $20 is CHEAP, (in my opinion). But the arguement is two fold. A) you can buy this magazine CHEAPER (operative word being cheaper) at the local hobby/comic store, and about the same price at the national booksellers. At those places, you can preview the issue before you purchase (See it is called ISSUE, like issue #1, and Issue #2... not too many "books" I know of come out with ISSUES). And you do not have to prepay. B)It will be arriving later, and possibly damaged in your mail, as opposed to going down the street and buying it for cheaper, and after perusing it.

Those are my two main gripes at this point. It may turn out that Pathfinder is as great as Castle Greyhawk, Lost caverns of T, White Plume Mountain etc... (whoever said Savage tide is best module ever, has different tastes than everyone I know, or has not played some of the older modules. Try the Oasis of the White palm series... or basically any Tracey Hickman module back in the day....Against the giants, the slavers series... geesh... so many uber modules... can't remember em all!).

If pathfinder is as great as 'castle greyhawk', or some of the other legendary modules, than I will say "Although it is higher than any non-trade magazine I know of, Pathfinder is well worth the price Paizo is charging. But I do recommend you drive the 6 minutes to your local bookstore and buy it there as opposed to paying MORE FOR IT through subscription". Not counting those of you in Prison, or the Military. (Don't laugh, they make up a large part of the RPG gaming population..)

~cheers, and I wish success to Paizo and WoTC.

Not sure why everyone is all the sudden a hater, to the company that kept DnD from Disappearing. And for you young kiddies out there, it was thisssssssss close to going By-by, not too many years ago. So yes, WoTC has dropped the ball a few times, yes they are a corporate "slave" forced to watch growth, revenue, ROA, ROI, etc... but I am still glad they bailed out TSR when they did.

Y'know, and I'm only speaking for myself here, I'd be happy to have ads and a lower price.

Call me crazy, but I -liked- the ads. Not all of them, obviously ... but I liked seeing new stuff from various publishers and distributors, funky dice manufacturers, Reaper miniatures, Bioware, et al.

For that matter, a "From the Editor" and letters column would be good, too.

And comics. I really like the Order of the Stick one-offs.

-The Gneech

I'm with John on this one. I have been a subscriber to both magazines for many years. I own 99% of all first edition products, about 90% of all 2nd edition, and about 95% of the 3.0/3.5 edition products put out by major players.

When it comes to Dungeon and Dragon, I NEVER wrote my comments or concerns to them. I assumed them to be like 99% of all message boards. You say you like something, and people call you a fanbois, you say you don't like something, and fanbois flame you.

Since we are on a message board, I will EXPECT such treatment, and thus I offer my problems with this new venture. 8-)

I liked the Prison Mail. I liked the Sage advice, I did not like any keith Baker/Ed Greenwood articles. I know I am in the minority... I don't care. That is my likes and dislikes. I liked reading about other players, and their favorite DMs, or character death stories, I liked reading how Nodwick was gonna get his nose cut off this month, I liked about 1/2 the articles in the mag each and every month. And even though I love the forgotten realms setting (though I have never played a campaign in it), I found Ed's articles not to my taste. I dislike Ebberon and perhaps this is why I dislike Keith's articles, Who knows?

When I read prison mail, I would ALWAYS see someone blasting the prior issue. I would read and empathize with them, and I would silently hope to myself that eventually they will understand the magazine is not ONLY FOR THEM. It is trying to reach many different people with many different likes and dislikes. There were issues of both mags that I liked 90% of content, and there were some I like 20%... that is what happens when the publishers try and reach mass audiences.. it is what it is!

As for this Pathfinder, I will buy them. Buy them all. Each and every issue. I am a dork (err, collector). I buy em all. paizo puts out a good product month after month. While I did not like the first "adventure path" they put out, I still kept each of my subscription copies, AND BOUGHT THE HARDBACK. Son of Kyuss, geesh... 8-(

But that is just me... Some people loved it, and rightly so. I think that most people are not like me, and are NOT COLLECTORS. I think a once a month magazine (not a book, a magazine...) that has ALL of it's eggs in one basket (the current campaign) is a risky venture for people with a fixed budget. What if the "campaign" part of issue one is not uber? What if people who have issue one and 2 find the campaign not to their likeing? Do they come back in 5-6 months when it is over, and try again? I doubt they will.

If this MAGAZINE does have a good amount of "extra" content as has been mentioned it is a good way to hedge your bets but not a sure thing.

For those of us, who liked the letters, liked the paper stock, liked the comics, liked the variety, and EVEN liked the ads... I hope that Pathfinder has a way to keep us happy, or for Paizo's sake, I hope they are all collectors!

PS Since Paizo is reading these boards (Kudos to you guys... very smart decision to read what your customers say.. free focus groups! hehe)... What is the deal with the pricing?

You guys MUST realize that $20 for a magazine is high (not uber high, but high... some game magazines are like 12 bucks but you get a dvd or ced with them)... Where I think the problem with your pricing really stands out, is the shipping and handling. $4 is absolutely outrageous. And I DO MEAN outrageous. Not to mention it is being shipped 7-10 day mail. I have never had a subscription to any magazine ever, that I paid a subscription price and extra for shipping. NEVER

I did the math in a different thread on these forums but to show it again.

Most people buy their DnD products from three main areas. 1) subscription. 2) On-line store. 3) specialty store (hobby, comic) or large book chain (borders, barnes and noble)

When we buy with subscription it is usually dramatically reduced in price. When we go to Comic or Hobby store 10-20% is an extremely common price savings they share with you, for being a regular customer. When I was into comics I paid 70% of cover because I bought there regularly... Now if you buy at borders or barnes and nobles, you can get 10% off just for signing up to be a preferred member. Not to mention the dozens if not hundreds of coupons they snail mail, or email you per year.

So let's assume you buy at a comic/hobby store. $20 price with 20% discount is 16 bucks. about $1.25 for tax puts you at $17.25 and you get to review to see if you like that month's issue, and you do not have to pay ahead of time. and you get it within 2 days of publisher release.

Go through Paizo subscription and you pay 14 bucks plus 4... Which equals 18 dollars, and you get it AFTER the stores, and you can not review it first, and you PREPAY, And sometimes the mags are damamged by post office ( a fact we deal with, since the discount is usually worth it.)

I think this is a mistake in your pricing guys. And trust me.. no one thinks a 96 page monthly periodical is a book. We all think it is a fancy magazine.. One that we will be paying more for then if we buy it down the street.

~Ron

I chose the subscription to pathfinder as my "transition choice" but if in 6 months when it runs out, you have not fixed the pricing, I will be forced to buy the mag elsewhere. I spend too much on my DnD hobby to throw money away, and that is what I am doing if I prepay MORE for a product than I could get it for, about 8 blocks away. I am sure that thousands of people feel the same way... whether they take the time to write it down.

After seeing some of the previews for the changes they're making to star wars, as well as some of the fantastic work that has been done (by wotc or other companies) in other products (from mutants and masterminds / True 20 to tome of battle, even to the dnd miniatures game), I would heartily welcome a 4th edition that actually made solid strides forward in game design, and I'd hope that any company or player would judge it on its own merits, not on some private schedule of "I can't buy a new player's handbook/edition more than once every 7 years" or somesuch.

I would be extremely saddened if they chose not to make it OGL, however.

How about "I can't buy over 90 new hardback DnD books every 7 years". Not to mention the thousands of dollars spent on softback books...

I am in the minority, I personally will buy almost all IF NOT ALL of the stuff DnD major players put out. I am a collector. I know many people who are not. I know many people who are just starting out in DnD, or PnP roleplaying games. They may be young, may be in college, may be on a budget etc... These people can not, or choose not to spend THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars per year on DnD, unlike a dork like me.

I personally feel really bad for all the people who bought 3.0, then about 15 minutes later, they had to buy 3.5 and now they are going to be buying 4.0 in the near future (IF THEY decide to buy).

I think WoTC made a huge mistake with cancelling Dungeon and Dragon Magazines, it is akin to the legendary genius decision of "let's kill Greyhawk, we need to make 25 different campaigns, spread ourselves super thin across all of them, and then focuse 90% of our energy on Forgotten Realms." For those oh you who forget, this was end of First edition, and begining of second edition. Thankfully Greyhawk was brought back as "THE CORE" world for products. I feel the two mags will be brought back as well. And not as some dumb PDF file that everyone will steal off BitTorrent.

I also feel this Pathfinder venture has a good chance of failure. Most people who buy DnD stuff have a certain hobby or comic book store they shop at, if not on line. Those stores ROUTINELY offer products for 10-20% discounts. So if we do the math. 20 bucks at a 20 % discount is 16. Add roughly $1.25 for tax, and you are spending $17.25 for a product IF YOU LIKE IT after reviewing it in store. Now Paizo's proposal is to charge 14 for the mag, 4 for shipping (which is 7-10 day shipping LOL), and you can not review it first???

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me...

I mean no disrespect to you Keith, but I feel many people will be financially unable or unwilling to switch to 4th edition so quickly. Many of you may remember how many "first edition" games people would run in home games or GEN CON games, WHILE 2nd EDITION WAS OUT! They didn't want to spend the money... I see 4th as having same problem, since 3.5 is so new.. And yes, I believe 6 years is new.