Pathfinder & 4th Edition


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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but as someone who is still 'sitting on the fence' about subscribing, thought it important to try-n-learn.

If and when there is a 4th Edition of D&D, will Pathfinder switch over to it or remain 3.5?

Not looking for a promise per se although it'd be nice to know what you guys are thinking of doing when the time comes.

Thanks.

Steve G.
Project Manager, AvatarArt


I have a feeling that they will stick to 3.5, since 4.0 will be a WotC exclusive. ~sighs~ sorry.


At which point in time I will probably quit playing Living Greyhawk, and be exclusive to home campaigns. But then what the hell am I going to do at Cons?


~grins~ Jeer at the fools that payed for 4.0?


Sharoth wrote:
~grins~ Jeer at the fools that payed for 4.0?

No ,might distract me from whatever game I pickup to replace my LG fix. Because it'll probably be a mini's wargame. More than liklely Reapers Warlord. Or maybe back into Battletech, I've got a bunch of those mini's laying around still.

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Xenophon wrote:
Sharoth wrote:
~grins~ Jeer at the fools that payed for 4.0?
No ,might distract me from whatever game I pickup to replace my LG fix. Because it'll probably be a mini's wargame. More than liklely Reapers Warlord. Or maybe back into Battletech, I've got a bunch of those mini's laying around still.

It would be one company switching to 4.0.

But consider all the other companies who publish rpg based on the OGL...

Most of them will be still there... ;-)

Greetings,
Günther

Lone Shark Games

After seeing some of the previews for the changes they're making to star wars, as well as some of the fantastic work that has been done (by wotc or other companies) in other products (from mutants and masterminds / True 20 to tome of battle, even to the dnd miniatures game), I would heartily welcome a 4th edition that actually made solid strides forward in game design, and I'd hope that any company or player would judge it on its own merits, not on some private schedule of "I can't buy a new player's handbook/edition more than once every 7 years" or somesuch.

I would be extremely saddened if they chose not to make it OGL, however.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

AvatarArt wrote:
If and when there is a 4th Edition of D&D, will Pathfinder switch over to it or remain 3.5?

Given that we don't know any more about 4th edition than you do, it's WAY too early to spend much effort thinking about what we *could* do, much less what we *will* do.


Keith Richmond wrote:

After seeing some of the previews for the changes they're making to star wars, as well as some of the fantastic work that has been done (by wotc or other companies) in other products (from mutants and masterminds / True 20 to tome of battle, even to the dnd miniatures game), I would heartily welcome a 4th edition that actually made solid strides forward in game design, and I'd hope that any company or player would judge it on its own merits, not on some private schedule of "I can't buy a new player's handbook/edition more than once every 7 years" or somesuch.

I would be extremely saddened if they chose not to make it OGL, however.

How about "I can't buy over 90 new hardback DnD books every 7 years". Not to mention the thousands of dollars spent on softback books...

I am in the minority, I personally will buy almost all IF NOT ALL of the stuff DnD major players put out. I am a collector. I know many people who are not. I know many people who are just starting out in DnD, or PnP roleplaying games. They may be young, may be in college, may be on a budget etc... These people can not, or choose not to spend THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars per year on DnD, unlike a dork like me.

I personally feel really bad for all the people who bought 3.0, then about 15 minutes later, they had to buy 3.5 and now they are going to be buying 4.0 in the near future (IF THEY decide to buy).

I think WoTC made a huge mistake with cancelling Dungeon and Dragon Magazines, it is akin to the legendary genius decision of "let's kill Greyhawk, we need to make 25 different campaigns, spread ourselves super thin across all of them, and then focuse 90% of our energy on Forgotten Realms." For those oh you who forget, this was end of First edition, and begining of second edition. Thankfully Greyhawk was brought back as "THE CORE" world for products. I feel the two mags will be brought back as well. And not as some dumb PDF file that everyone will steal off BitTorrent.

I also feel this Pathfinder venture has a good chance of failure. Most people who buy DnD stuff have a certain hobby or comic book store they shop at, if not on line. Those stores ROUTINELY offer products for 10-20% discounts. So if we do the math. 20 bucks at a 20 % discount is 16. Add roughly $1.25 for tax, and you are spending $17.25 for a product IF YOU LIKE IT after reviewing it in store. Now Paizo's proposal is to charge 14 for the mag, 4 for shipping (which is 7-10 day shipping LOL), and you can not review it first???

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me...

I mean no disrespect to you Keith, but I feel many people will be financially unable or unwilling to switch to 4th edition so quickly. Many of you may remember how many "first edition" games people would run in home games or GEN CON games, WHILE 2nd EDITION WAS OUT! They didn't want to spend the money... I see 4th as having same problem, since 3.5 is so new.. And yes, I believe 6 years is new.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

The fact that Hobby store sell things at discount is irrelevant: The discount comes out of their share of the sale, not Paizo's. Paizo is just happy thet the product sold. And they wouldn't sell it to the hobby shop at a price that leaves them losing money on it.

Sovereign Court

I don't see your logic Ron. If the hobby stores sell their products at discount, that doesn't harm Paizo. And Paizo has done a fantastic job so far marketing Pathfinder and providing insights into the content of the books. As a charter subscriber, I chose to pay up front because I read what was available and determined that yes, this will be a quality product and well worth my hobby-dollars.

As for 4th edition, I hope it's still a decade away. I want to get a little more play out of the books I do have. But then, that doesn't help game producers earn a buck, so I don't expect the delay to be quite that long. More 3.5 books please!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Vendle wrote:
As for 4th edition, I hope it's still a decade away. I want to get a little more play out of the books I do have. But then, that doesn't help game producers earn a buck, so I don't expect the delay to be quite that long. More 3.5 books please!

The nice thing about adventure modules is that they can stand the test of time. When I got involved with d20 Modern's Dark*Matter, I came across "old" adventures like the Killing Jar. The adventure is AWESOME. It is well-written, well-paced, and is probably one of the best adventures I've ever read. But it's not d20. No problem. Just cut and paste the threats with d20 threats and now it's fully updated.

I can't imagine that I'll get through even a 10th of the adventures I have in the lifetime of 3.5. But assuming that I've some great tickers for the future, and assuming that I find myself still playing in the years to come, I can't imagine that it won't be too hard to swap out "old" threats for whatever new game system I'm using.

So, keep the good adventures coming!


Vic Wertz wrote:
Given that we don't know any more about 4th edition than you do, it's WAY too early to spend much effort thinking about what we *could* do, much less what we *will* do.

I was thinking this is the oliphant in the room, and that there's really only a few possibilities. You have the timetable which is either going to be that 4th Ed comes SOONER or it is going to come LATER. Sooner to me could be as early as this August at GenCon, which will be the con's 40th anniversary. Could '40th' go well with '4th?' Monte Cook's thoughts from 2006 seem to validate this. Or it could be later, such as in April of 2011. Either way, its coming.

The other aspect are the differences; i.e will it play well with 3.5 and the current OGL. Will it be COMPATIBLE and therefore easily converted or will it be INCOMPATIBLE and not worth the time?

So basically the possibilities of a 4th edition D&D are:

1) SOONER & COMPATIBLE
2) SOONER & INCOMPATIBLE
3) LATER & COMPATIBLE
4) LATER & INCOMPATIBLE

Curious as to how people see each of these affecting Pathfinder.

Steve G.
Project Manager, AvatarArt


I flip through the 4th edition books when they come out and see what they have to offer. However I have so much money invested in 3.5 that 4th better wow me or else I’ll stick with what works. I’m not going to shell out thousands of dollars every few years just to have the most recent edition. Especially if a new set will come out every five years, not if I can get 12 years or so out of my product I’ll be more likely to consider it. Hell, I have friends who played 2nd edition until a year ago.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Thank god someone finally started a 4e thread! And better yet, someone already posted the whiny little "I know what D&D players really want/I'm cheap" rant in it. On the first page even! Woot!

I have one thing to say:

HITLER!!!

I win the thread!!! Yay me!!!

Edit: Also, the new edition will be classless, diceless, require the use and purchase of offical WotC minatures (seriously - there will be roving bands of death squads and spy sattelites to make sure you only use the correct products), will be playable exclusively online with a monthly fee, and will be dumbed down so that only people younger than you who's company and taste you disdain will want to play it.

Liberty's Edge

Why do I feel compelled to comment, and yet, compelled not to at the same time?


Sebastian wrote:

Thank god someone finally started a 4e thread! And better yet, someone already posted the whiny little "I know what D&D players really want/I'm cheap" rant in it. On the first page even! Woot!

I have one thing to say:

HITLER!!!

I win the thread!!! Yay me!!!

Hah, I invoke Quirk's exception. Now get back on topic.

I certainly hope we'll have a fourth edition at some point (although not nescesarily this year or next). I hope for a system that'll give me many of the cool options 3.5 ed gives me, but is easier to use when improving monsters. Because at high level, that just takes too much time if you ask me.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Chef's Slaad wrote:


Hah, I invoke Quirk's exception. Now get back on topic.

What topic? There's no topic regarding 4e, there's a horse, badly mutilated, beaten beyond recognition, smelling of rot, and long since decayed beyond recognition. I mean yeah, we could continue beating this poor carcass, but can we really call that a topic?

Plus, I saved everyone the effort by posting a summary of the most common beliefs/assumptions regarding 4e.

These "topics" could really be drinking games. If this thread continues, take a drink every time someone says any of the following:


  • 3e will be classless or have fewer classes
  • Monte's prediction is repeated but framed to sound as if the poster came up with it
  • WotC has to compete with MMORPG's
  • The preferences of the gaming community are definitively proven through anecodotal evidence
  • The role of Dragon in the launch of 4e
  • 4e will be in pdf format
  • The incorrect statement that the OGL will/can be revoked
  • Money will be the reason for 4e being launched (drink twice if the poster uses $$ or just uses Money as a single word sentence)
  • 3.5 is the only version of the game that a person ever could/would/should want
  • WotC will fail miserably in the launch of 4e
  • Hasbro will be responsible for 4e

Now do I win?

Liberty's Edge

I have this friend,...let's call him Spanky. Well, he went out with this girl, who works with this other girl, who went out with this guy who games, and he said that she said that SHE said that he said that his cousin, who doesn't game much but buys comics, just indies none of that Marvel/D.C./Image spew (his words, not mine, or his, or hers, or hers, or his,),...well this cousin guy, he was talking to this guy, who owns the FLGS where he used to work. Not the guy she went out with, but the guy's cousin or brother or whatever.
So anyway, I forgot what I was going to say.

Gaaaaaaah!!! I hate it when that happens!!!


Gozz m'witness! Ith all thrue!!! (hic)

Dark Archive Contributor

Heathansson wrote:
So anyway, I forgot what I was going to say.

What you were going to say is, "Hey Mike, me and some of the other guys put our wallets together and bought you a few bottles of Jameson's. We're shipping it to Paizo even as I speak..."

Right?

;D


4th Edition will actually be a CCG.

In fact, Hasbro will just combine Magic:TCG, D&D Minis, and 300 page PDFs into a single MMORPG.

That only runs on Windows Vista.


Sebastian wrote:
  • Money will be the reason for 4e being launched (drink twice if the poster uses $$ or just uses Money as a single word sentence)
  • What happens when someone blames "those greedy bastards at T$R?" Is that a triple drink?

    Cheers,
    El Skootro

    Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

    el_skootro wrote:


    What happens when someone blames "those greedy bastards at T$R?" Is that a triple drink?

    No, you actually would skip a drink. Retroactive continuity currently states that TSR was a good and kindly caretaker of the D&D brand and fans alike. Not only would they not have ever released 3e, but they would've kept supporting your favorite discontinued campaign setting and would never have been as motivated by money as WotC/Hasbro.

    (they also would've been out of business, but the considerations of running a successful business should never be included in a discussion of 4e)

    Liberty's Edge

    Now I need a drink.

    Liberty's Edge

    Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    Sean, Minister of KtSP wrote:
    That only runs on Windows Vista.

    LOL!

    Silly rabbit, nothing runs on Windows Vista!

    *grins*

    Sorry, couldn't help it. *chuckles*


    Ron Podulka wrote:


    How about "I can't buy over 90 new hardback DnD books every 7 years". Not to mention the thousands of dollars spent on softback books...

    You could spend the money on crack and hookers

    Ron Podulka wrote:


    I personally feel really bad for all the people who bought 3.0, then about 15 minutes later, they had to buy 3.5 and now they are going to be buying 4.0 in the near future (IF THEY decide to buy).

    Don't I could have spent the money on crack and hookers

    My point being that what ever money you are spending to get EVERY D&D book, has got to be expendable income. So obviously you do not have another need for the money. If you enjoy collecting the books, then I say enjoy your purchase. If you can't afford to purchase EVERY D&D book then you shouldn't be buying them and open a savings account.


    Keith Richmond wrote:

    After seeing some of the previews for the changes they're making to star wars, as well as some of the fantastic work that has been done (by wotc or other companies) in other products (from mutants and masterminds / True 20 to tome of battle, even to the dnd miniatures game), I would heartily welcome a 4th edition that actually made solid strides forward in game design, and I'd hope that any company or player would judge it on its own merits, not on some private schedule of "I can't buy a new player's handbook/edition more than once every 7 years" or somesuch.

    I would welcome 4e D&D if it actually makes solid strides forward in game design. But I just don't se the whole d20 thing played out, to where we need a whole new edition.

    Keith Richmond wrote:


    I would be extremely saddened if they chose not to make it OGL, however.

    Me too. When this first happened I wondered about the quality of 3rd party publishers. But paizo and others have proven the worth of OGL to gaming and D&D. I wuold miss OGl all together.


    Crazy Idea!

    Have Paizo OGL their gameworld and new rules as OGL 4.0. This would raise the stakes and either:

    nudge WOTC into releasing their 4.0 as OGL or

    WOTC turns it's back on OGL but gamers have a choice.

    However, the time to act is now, because if you wait until 4.0 is released, many good ideas will be copyright already.

    Sovereign Court

    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

    Sorry for re-opening a thread which is probably getting on quite some people's nerves by now.

    But in the meantime Clark Peterson from Paizo's partner Necromancer Games explained (link leads to enworld message board discussing the news) a certain shortage of product news by the uneasiness in the industry. Many people did estimate 4th edition to be announced on GenCon and Necromancer Games like many other 3rd companies felt unsettled: Will WotC invite some companies to join in in creating 4th edition products (-> d20) or will it not? Will 3.5 products be outdated or not?

    Thanks to a reader's explanation in a different thread I finally grasped the difference between d20 and OGL (at least in a rough manner - very easily put I understand that d20 could force a company to follow WotC to any new edition and is in general more restrictive, while OGL can't be changed any more). In regard to this information I can only applaud Paizo for using OGL for their products.

    What is bothering me now, is the question: If at some time a 4th edition will show up and WotC would enable 3rd companies to publish d20 products for that edition: Would Paizo stay true to the OGL licence, or would we see a change to d20/ 4th edition?

    And if you are as much in the know as most people are right now, maybe you have at least an opinion you could share with us...? ;-)

    I am part of the voiceful crowd who don't yearn for a 4th edition yet and would certainly welcome if Paizo kept on producing OGL (i.e. 3.5 compatible) products for a very long time. For that very reason I would like to know your point of view, i.e. your perspective.

    Thanks in advance for your answer!

    Greetings,
    Günther

    Sovereign Court

    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

    Baah!
    Günther writes and everyone falls silent... :pp

    Liberty's Edge

    Mike McArtor wrote:

    What you were going to say is, "Hey Mike, me and some of the other guys put our wallets together and bought you a few bottles of Jameson's. We're shipping it to Paizo even as I speak..."

    Right?

    But why would he use "me" as the subject instead of "I?" :P

    Liberty's Edge

    Azzy wrote:
    Mike McArtor wrote:

    What you were going to say is, "Hey Mike, me and some of the other guys put our wallets together and bought you a few bottles of Jameson's. We're shipping it to Paizo even as I speak..."

    Right?

    But why would he use "me" as the subject instead of "I?" :P

    Cos I roll like that. ;)

    Dark Archive Contributor

    Heathansson wrote:
    Cos I roll like that. ;)

    Heathy gets a cookie. :)

    Liberty's Edge

    Nyomp. Yummah.

    Liberty's Edge

    LOL. Sorry, Mike, I couldn't resist. ;)

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    Guennarr wrote:
    If at some time a 4th edition will show up and WotC would enable 3rd companies to publish d20 products for that edition: Would Paizo stay true to the OGL licence, or would we see a change to d20/ 4th edition?

    I reiterate:

    Vic Wertz wrote:
    Given that we don't know any more about 4th edition than you do, it's WAY too early to spend much effort thinking about what we *could* do, much less what we *will* do.

    Dark Archive Contributor

    Azzy wrote:
    LOL. Sorry, Mike, I couldn't resist. ;)

    No worries, Azzy. Just keepin' it in character. ;D

    Sovereign Court

    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
    Vic Wertz wrote:


    I reiterate:

    Vic Wertz wrote:
    Given that we don't know any more about 4th edition than you do, it's WAY too early to spend much effort thinking about what we *could* do, much less what we *will* do.

    Thanks again for reiterating. ;-)

    ... and for not letting yourself be unsettled too easily by rumours.

    Greetings,
    Günther


    Just because I like resurrecting old threads, and I thought people might be interested...

    According to the Wizards forums, Wizards has just (perhaps inadvertently) announced 4th Edition.

    I personally have no interest in learning a whole new set of rules, in all honesty. Any idea yet if you folks are staying 3.5 or plan on going 4, now that its apparently a go?

    RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

    Looks liekt he rumors of them announcing 4E at GenCon were right.

    I mean, it's not impossible that it's something else, but not bloody likely. However, since the minis game is rooted in 3rd, and they make money on the Minis game, they can't change it too much. The bigger issue is if 4th will be OGLed. If it is, we're gold. I realize the Paizo staff is busy with GenCon, but any of you guys know what's going on? You know the people over at WotC, which is more connections that we have.


    I wonder what the future holds for Pathfinder and Paizo now?

    Olaf the Stout


    I'm just waiting for Sebastion's head to explode out of sheer smug satisfaction.

    As for what Paizo will do, they'll have to wait and see what it's all about and when it will happen like the rest of us.


    They've probably been in meetings all night long.


    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

    Announcing 4E and releasing 4E are two different things.

    Anyhow, the WOTC boards are lockdown with a countdown timer so something big is about to break. The logo '4dventure' I think is evidence that it will be a 4E announcement that people have been expecting or speculating about.

    That said, I feel like I was lied to. Yes, lied to. The spindoctoring at WOTC had me convinced that 4E was still a ways off.

    WOTC has gone on record that any important announcments for D&D will occur at D&D Experience (formerly Winter Fantasy) and at the past D&D Experience, there was no announcement of 4E.

    In fact, during the big presentation at D&D Experience, audience members put the question about 4E to WOTC staffers and the response was (paraphrased as I don't have the quoted responses):

    - 4E will come out eventually but it was still quite aways off.

    - 3.5 sales are still strong and R&D development on 3.5 material was continuing and the future release schedule for 3.5 material was proof of that.

    - that 4E was not in active development at that time (Jan '07) and that the normal development cycle for a product of that scope would be 1.5 to 2 years.

    So, here we are, 7 months after these statements by WOTC staffers were made at D&D Experience and it looks very much like a 4E announcement to the majority of people at GenCon.

    Which means that WOTC staffers deliberately misrepresented the actual state of 4E at D&D Experience.

    I got blindsided because I took WOTC at their word. I wonder if the announcement tomorrow is something that Paizo knew about and they are prepared for..... or if they will get blindsided as well.


    Black Moria wrote:

    Announcing 4E and releasing 4E are two different things.

    Anyhow, the WOTC boards are lockdown with a countdown timer so something big is about to break. The logo '4dventure' I think is evidence that it will be a 4E announcement that people have been expecting or speculating about.

    That said, I feel like I was lied to. Yes, lied to. The spindoctoring at WOTC had me convinced that 4E was still a ways off.

    WOTC has gone on record that any important announcments for D&D will occur at D&D Experience (formerly Winter Fantasy) and at the past D&D Experience, there was no announcement of 4E.

    In fact, during the big presentation at D&D Experience, audience members put the question about 4E to WOTC staffers and the response was (paraphrased as I don't have the quoted responses):

    - 4E will come out eventually but it was still quite aways off.

    - 3.5 sales are still strong and R&D development on 3.5 material was continuing and the future release schedule for 3.5 material was proof of that.

    - that 4E was not in active development at that time (Jan '07) and that the normal development cycle for a product of that scope would be 1.5 to 2 years.

    So, here we are, 7 months after these statements by WOTC staffers were made at D&D Experience and it looks very much like a 4E announcement to the majority of people at GenCon.

    Which means that WOTC staffers deliberately misrepresented the actual state of 4E at D&D Experience.

    I got blindsided because I took WOTC at their word. I wonder if the announcement tomorrow is something that Paizo knew about and they are prepared for..... or if they will get blindsided as well.

    You know, looking at the topics in the forums before they got locked down, I'm wondering if this announcement is just that 4th edition is officially on its way, but is indeed a ways (maybe a year or more) off. There did seem to be a lot of threads about "what would you like in 4th edition" as opposed to "what do you think about what we already have planned."

    Liberty's Edge

    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    KnightErrantJR wrote:


    You know, looking at the topics in the forums before they got locked down, I'm wondering if this announcement is just that 4th edition is officially on its way, but is indeed a ways (maybe a year or more) off. There did seem to be a lot of threads about "what would you like in 4th edition" as opposed to "what do you think about what we already have...

    I think you're right. It's been clear from message boards that a new edition is an unpopular idea, and to make that change as a blindsiding move rather than a "Tell us what you'd like to see" way is pretty silly.

    The Exchange

    Well I for one hope that 4e does come. It will mean an end to WoTC owning DnD for in truth I think it is such a bad Idea at this time I can't help but wonder how soon it will be before they sell off the game.

    Sebastian Have drink on me, my good(ChaoticEvil) Man.

    Mike I live next door to a liquor store you don't know how tempted I am to box one up and to send it to you.


    Announcing that 4th edition is coming in 6 months or a year would be a terrific way to flush all 3.5 edition product sales into the toilet. On the other hand, that might be the idea. Leashing in a too popular magazine wasn't enough; we had better drop the big one....! Cripes I hope they don’t choose Eberron as the Core setting, oiy.

    The Exchange

    mwbeeler wrote:
    Cripes I hope they don’t choose Eberron as the Core setting, oiy.

    Yeah that would be a good way to have everyone not buy the new books!

    Although if it is OGL then they would have to make a new SRD which you could DL for free from thier site. That wouldn't be too bad a prospect because then you could just cut and paste Pathfinder feats and PrC's into your own homebrew rules and never have to buy a PHb agian.

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