Advice on PFS Whip-Trip / Debuff Bard

[Creevy]

Hey everyone, I decided to try a bard out in PFS. Normally most bards get their CHA to 16 and then focus on their martial prowess. I wanted to go the opposite route, upping my CHA as high as possible and using my spells and whip to do my best wizard impression, while still retaining the skill monkey and social abilities of the bard. The whip is intended to trip opponents, and give me something to do when I'm not casting. I was hoping you'd look over what I have now, as well as give me some advice especially on feats, which is where I really need the help. I have no interest in using archetypes, as most of the good ones give up versatile performance and/or bardic knowledge, and I want to primarily be a skill monkey. This is my first time posting on here, so if I forget any information let me know and I will provide it.

My build so far:

Halfling Bard level 1

Str: 7 (5)
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 7
Cha: 17 (19)

Traits: Reactionary and Indomitable Faith (to buff my Wis dump)

In terms of spells I plan on taking mostly debuffing/good SoS spells, and when I am not casting them I plan to be tripping or disarming my opponents.

Feats are where I really need help. I have no need for whip mastery, as I do not plan on doing damage with my whip whatsoever. However, even without it, Weapon Finesse is crucial due to my strength dump, and I believe Improved Trip to be important as well, which means I need Combat Expertise. Even Greater Trip wouldn't go underutilized, but I also want Improved Initiatve since I plan to primarily be a caster/pseudo-caster.

On top of those, I'm afraid the DC for my spells won't be up to snuff, and was considering taking Heighten Spell for that reason. Do you think I'll need this, or will I be able to get by on the Charisma I have currently? Not to mention the bard favorites, Spellsong and Discordant Voice.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Your Stats won't work. You can't do a 5 Str, just a chain shirt is 12.5 lbs, so your already medium encumbered, and down to 15 ft movement. (or 20 foot if you take the fleet Halfling racial) So, don't go that route.

Use Str 8 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 19.

Your DC's will be fine, if you up Cha at level 4 and grab a Cha headband, and a Dex belt, you can weapon finesse.

I'm going to tell you something you won't want to hear. As a Halfling, anything larger than medium you can't trip. Since that's the case, and since Bards double dip skills with Versatile Performance, drop Int to 12 (or 13 just because you'll have 1 pt left somewhere. Use the whip to Aid Another instead, and take the Helpful Halfling Trait to make it +4.

As long as you can reach the enemy, you can give a +4 to hit to an ally.

That's about as good as you're going to get for support.

Bard performance, Blistering Invective(Intimidate and Fire AOE 2nd level spell), and possibly go the dazzling display and Flagbearer route. You're basically a team cheerleader at that point, with some control SoS for the enemies.

Or, if you have a way to get Blood of Angels (splatbook) use the Musetouched Aasimar (Dex/Cha, glitterdust SLA, Diplo/perform bonus). Much better race for this build.

Str 9 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 7 Cha 19 for this race, more str for more gear.

Get a +1 Dueling(PSFG not UE Dueling) whip (gives +3 to combat maneuvers). Get a +1 Agile Rapier for damage, adding dex.

[Rannan]

I was planning on a character just like this and apparently it will be a difficult road. The main issue is that enemies CMD gets pretty high the further you level, nonhumanoid especially. If you're following Treantmonks Controller Bard build, I'd stop. Even he posted on the thread saying it was not a good build in practice.

Know that you can't be a full caster or full melee either. If you focus on one too much you'll do terrible. Take Imp. Init at level, then you can buff the group right at the start if need be. I'd read into this thread when you get the time: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r2tm?Has-anyone-tried-Treantmonks-control-bard

Edit: how far will your campaign go? And if you get this build to work I'd definitely be interested in hearing about it.

[revaar]

You should reconsider the Whip Mastery Line, especially Improved Whip Mastery, which allows you to threaten a 10' range with your whip. Having a good threatening range is a great boost to the kind of Bard you want to be, since you can play similar to a reach Cleric, casting during your turn and making Attacks of Opportunity during the enemy's turn. Greater Whip Mastery isn't necessary however, unless you find yourself wanting to grapple at range.

TGMAxMaxer has good points as well. As a halfing, you won't be able to trip many things beyond the first few adventures, when you start facing larger and less humanoid foes. You can alleviate this pain a little by having some sort of access to enlarge person, but being medium sized to begin with with help even more. If you can swing Musetouched Aasimar, make sure to also be a scion of humanity, so enlarge person will work on you.

[Creevy]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I'm certainly not married to the idea of tripping--that just seemed like the best way to spend my time when not casting. Do you think it would be viable to have a Dex of 16+headband for a bard who wants to use archery, but prefers to focus on spells?

Likewise, I'm not married to being a halfling. I was unaware until recently that small characters take 3/4 on capacity--which changes a lot. I might try to make this into either Aasimar from above, or a half-elf for flavor purposes.

Would you say that it is less important for a bard to go first (IE, Reactionary+Improved Initiative is less crucial) than a full caster?

[Rannan]

I would say more important if you are going to be doing buffs. You want to buff everyone ASAP so they can make the most of it.

From what I heard, archer bards are pretty good. But unless you go elf, you'll need weapon proficiency for the longbow or use the shortbow. I have heard the shortbow isn't terrible but also not the best, but taking a feat to use a longbow isn't ideal either. And Elf isn't an amazing choice unless you do go archery, then it's probably the most efficient. Archery builds are very feat intensive, so human isn't a bad choice either. I've also heard the crossbow is weak.

You can get a net if you want. I hear really good things about nets, but idk how they do at the higher levels because they have a str 25 DC, at which point they can break the net. But in the mean time you'd have to pick up EWP: Net. It's pretty good for a controller type bard.

Wouldn't recommend Dazzling Display, as spells at the higher levels do a better job and it takes a move action which hurts the higher you go.

The thread I linked earlier is like 2.5 pages long and offers a lot of peoples views and opinions. I started out wanting you do what you want to do, then moved to a archer bard who buffs, and now I'm a Dawnflower of Dervish bard who mostly buffs himself and can still be a skillmonkey and party face. And with high dex and moderate con I can actually melee without being terrified of dying at level 1.

EDIT: Don't forget you can get a masterwork backpack. Every little bit helps. Or a packmule if your GM allows it.

Don't forget that if you go melee, you still need str to add +hit to your rolls. The way around that is the Dervish Dance feat, but then you can only use a scimitar for the bonus. It won't apply to any other weapon. Dervish Dance also counts as Weapon Finesse for the scimitar, so your dex gets added to +hit and +dmg. However, having said that, being a melee bard is a dangerous game. You're 3/4 BAB, your health is unlikely to be optimal, and you wear light armor.

Bards can be pretty good at two things but never the best at two things. The thing they are REALLY good at is buffing. But you can't only buff, you'll run out of buffs. And you can't only cast because you'll run out of spells and your damage will pale next to a full caster, just like your melee will pale next to a full melee.

I personally built my character to be pretty good at melee and am using his spells to debuff enemies and his spells/performances to buff teammates (the few that I have that will still buff teammates). I plan to pick up mostly utility spells to be useful.

My stats are 7 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 13 int, 7 wis, and 18 cha. I went human and chose Dual Talent rather than the extra feat and bonus skill point. With Imp. Init. and Reactionary, my init is +10 at level one.

If you aren't concerned with having all the vanilla bard spells (Bardic Knowledge, Lore Master, Versatile Performance, etc.) take a look at some of the archetypes and see if anything sticks out to you.

The people here are really helpful. Don't be afraid to ask for help or bump a topic.

[Cuttler]

archer bard is indeed interesting at low levels....you can always try to get lesser bracers of archery to get proficiency with longbow

[redward]

I have a whip/tripping Bard for PFS. She's currently level 16. Her CMB for tripping is +31 when buffed (Archaeologists Luck, Greater Heroism). That could certainly be higher if I'd focused her more on it, but she can still trip stuff ~50% of the time--if it can even be tripped.

What I've found is the following:

• It's difficult to keep Save DCs up for Bards due to their spell progression, especially so if you're diverting resources towards martial abilities
  
• A lot of things are immune to a lot of your spells (especially the mind-affecting ones)
  
• Tripping is extremely useful to a group once you have Greater Trip--my Bard barely does any damage herself, but she can generate a lot from the other front-liners with AoOs
  
• But it is increasingly more difficult to pull off as you start routinely encountering Huge and Colossal creatures, flying creatures, and other things immune or otherwise resistant to tripping

I have found myself a fairly comfortable--and I believe useful--niche in combat support and battlefield control. I make liberal use of Jester's Jaunt, Dimension Door and Bard's Escape to reposition myself and my allies. I use Timely Inspiration and Gallant Inspiration to help with near misses. Liberating Command to get allies out of grapples. Arcane Concordance to help out my fellow casters.

I do have some SoS spells and a Persistent Metamagic Rod to try to help them stick, but I've found at this level I'm usually better off saving my spell slots for everything I mentioned above. Since most of the spells I use are situational and/or Immediate actions, I'll spend my turns tripping if I think I can pull it off or readying interrupts.

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Please note that's only my experience. You may find great success with an offensive casting Bard. If you do go the tripping route, I highly recommend sticking to a Medium character and picking up Greater Trip and Improved Whip Mastery. Also consider potions of Enlarge Person for when you want to trip bigger creatures.