Professor Quolorum's page

Also, even if training is generally available, doesn't mean it is specifically available right now. I'm pretty sure sometimes you will be stuck without being able to retrain, even if it's for a relatively short while.

I think this is an important consideration that could be worked into feat design. Perhaps powerful, niche feats should require more generally applicable prerequisites to ensure characters are not totally locked out of abilities.

Professor Quolorum wrote:

The ability to dip in PF1 did not start out as a major balance concern. It is only with the exponential growth of options with every class and archetype published that things got really out of hand. It's impossible for designers to foresee every powerful combination of abilities, and players as a group have practically infinite more time to find them. This creates tension between giving classes cool things early and keeping a balanced game.

Eliminating the dip in PF2 makes maintaining balance as the system matures much more straightforward.

How's taking 1 or two feats from Multiclassing for just what you want not dipping anymore? Brain storming here but a Barbarian could very well give up 1 feat for Alchemist Dedication and if within reach, Mutagen on their next Feat.

First off, that barbarian could save the class feats and take the Craft(alchemy) skill.

Secondly, the stat requirements on multiclassing push those options into later levels where they are far less of a dip and much more a character investment.

The ability to dip in PF1 did not start out as a major balance concern. It is only with the exponential growth of options with every class and archetype published that things got really out of hand. It's impossible for designers to foresee every powerful combination of abilities, and players as a group have practically infinite more time to find them. This creates tension between giving classes cool things early and keeping a balanced game.

Eliminating the dip in PF2 makes maintaining balance as the system matures much more straightforward.

I think the problem of players abusing retraining isn't an entirely player sided problem. If feats and abilities were built more broadly and weren't extremely useful within their niche and nothing outside of it, then players wouldn't have as much of a motive to swap out their abilities for others in order to stay useful. What's the point of having a bunch of undead slaying options if the hypothetical undead slaying build is near useless in non-undead situations?

If PF2 is embracing niche abilities and supporting them by ensuring that players can swap them out when they aren't needed, then I don't think we can call it a player abuse of the system.

I do see it as another tradeoff. How focused on undead do you want to go for this dungeon? How much does that cut into your general effectiveness for the encounters that aren't undead? Do you want to risk not having enough Downtime after the dungeon to train back out of this specialized build?

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like "retraining some of your feats" might actually be a good way to represent stories like "a fighter discovers magical talent and, while at home after an adventure, delves so deeply into it they forgot to keep practicing and as such their swordfighting skills are somewhat diminished."

I don't think "I'm taking this now but will retrain it later" is any more of a "rules exploit at the expense of telling a story" than "taking a 1 or 2 level dip in a class, just for divine grace or proficiencies or w/e" and that sort of thing was super common.

I wasn't really partial to dips either to be honest.

To be clear, the specific sort of thing I have a problem with would be someone taking a feat because they thought it would be useful in the next dungeon and then retraining it away right afterward. I have this horrible image of my head of some of my players making themselves into perfectly honed killers of Undead because they're going to go into one dungeon where they will be prominent, only to become their old selves again soon they leave.

Perhaps I'll implement a house rule that any given feat slot can only have its contents retrained once without special permission.

I can see that lending itself to abuse, but there are some built-in limitations as well. You can only retrain during downtime; it isn't instant, so those players have an undead-focused build on the way to, and back from the dungeon, as well as against any living creatures that might have found their way into the dungeon as well.

A simple "it's probably not worth retraining for this one" might work. I wouldn't advocate punishing players or defying their expectations repeatedly, but making a supposedly undead-filled dungeon full of plants that mimic undead instead might underscore the importance of the informed part of informed build choices.

I don't think "I'm taking this now but will retrain it later" is any more of a "rules exploit at the expense of telling a story" than "taking a 1 or 2 level dip in a class, just for divine grace or proficiencies or w/e" and that sort of thing was super common.

I have the vague recollection that retraining in PF2 would restrict you to replacing feats with another feat you could have picked at that level, rather than the PF1 method of whatever you qualify for now. If so, "taking now to retrain later" would not be a power boost or exploit.

Does anyone know the specifics?

As a game master, my inclination would be to crack down on players who I believe are taking any option with the explicit attempt to retrain it away, barring specific situations like archetypes where you need to hold off on taking it until you meet a prerequisite but then want to be a little bit into it.

Retraining should be away for players, especially newer players, to undo mistakes so that they aren't screwed over by mistakes that they make early on before they really know how the game works. It also means that experimenting is less punished because you can undo decisions that you make that turn out to be bad ones.

I'm not sure I share that view. Retraining shouldn't be only for fixing mistakes. Retraining also supports characters going in different directions, or responding to changing situations.

Not every feat is going to be useful for an entire campaign. I think it is a good thing to encourage taking boat feats for the four or five levels of naval skulduggery with the understanding they can be retrained when the campaign transitions to land-based adventures.

This seems like an excellent question to test in play, or playtest, if you will.

Yes. That's why I raised the question. So you and I can both add it to the list of things to test.

Edited to add: Thinking about things now can help us plan on how to test and what we are looking for in the mechanics.

In PF1, player options are evaluated without the assumption that retraining is available. Changing your build was done by the grace of GM. This means that niche options are not considered valuable for players. Feats that are only valuable for part of a campaign aren't worth including in your build over more generally applicable options.

This time around rules for retraining your build choices are going to be included in the Core Rulebook. Does having retraining as a defined Downtime activity from the start change how we consider situation feats and abilities?

Subtracting the party’s level from every DC is equivalent to adding character level to every check.

Give me 10 on Ritual magic, bookie.

I say!

"I don't know where to start looking, but I believe Lady Illirigarde was ahead of us in her investigations! You'll find her tools in her Manor. I think they'll lead us to the source."

"By- Hmm. I don't know what it could be. These visions must be just another piece of the puzzle. If you keep up the investigation, we might just be able to put it all together. Send me your notes, and I will cogitate on the conundrum."

He gazes at the still form of the angry faces, "The energy might be neutralized for now, but I don't think we managed to free whatever is trapped here. I suspect it will remain, unless we find the source of these Phenomena."

I enjoyed playing Dr. Quolorum because he has a lot of personality in this section, but I will certainly not be making aliases for every NPC.

Anyone have ideas for what class the good doctor might be? I think he's spot on for a Psychic Detective Investigator.

Dr. Quolorum strokes Mr. Sunshine and watches pensively as the team dispatches the ectoplasmic threats. With the area clear, he happily rushes forward and examines the fresh lightning strike.

"Ohhh... Mm-Hmm... Fascinating!... fascinating...This will do"

He pulls out two strange-looking vials from his pack and harvests some ectoplasm into his newly developed storage containers.

"Thank you all for your hard work tonight, Pathfinders. I couldn't have done it without you! I'll take these samples back to the lab for study while you attend to the... other matters." He looks pointedly at Mathos, "I might even let you sample the ointment I've been developing. For your trouble, of course."

He starts trekking toward the path leading into town, and calls back to the group, "Get some rest tonight. There is still much to do!"

Dr. Quolorum jumps at the Tiny cat's exclamation in the otherwise quiet wood. He seems to concentrate for a moment, casting speak with animals, then slowly lowers his hands from his ears as the animal continues and tentatively reaches out a hand to scratch the cat behind the ears.

"What a fascinating animal you are... thank you"

Dr. Quolorum stares at the forms that emerged from the crater, "That... that does not look good." He hurries back toward Fran as fast as he can through the underbrush.

Dr. Quolorum struggles as the wicked claws grasp his legs.

"Ouch! It's got me!"

Strength: 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (2) - 1 = 1

"I can't break free! The thorns just dig into my skin. Oh, but we must collect a sample of the ectoplasmic residue while it still lingers." he says with a resolve to rival Elana's. He stows his paranormal instrument in his pack and eyes the writhing mass with an analytical air.

Quolorum muses, ”Leng, you say… It is strange to meet a visitor from the Dimension of Dreams, or perhaps the Land of Nightmares, and escape to tell the tale. Do try to recall what it said, my girl. A warning from such a visitor must hold a clue to these phenomena.”

As he finishes speaking, a bolt of red lightning strikes a nearby copse of trees. Dr. Quolorum excitedly yells, “This is it, people!” and hurries off in the direction of the disturbance.

The professor looks somewhat taken aback by Elena's outburst, “I think it is best to prepare for anything. I’m told wild animals and plants react strangely to these lightning strikes. Furthermore, ectoplasm can be dangerous and is often accompanied by ghosts or restless spirits, but it isn't evil in itself. It’s a fascinating substance, really; the best way to describe it is that ectoplasm is the material that forms along the veil between our world and the Ethereal Plane. Fascinating, isn’t it?”

Dr. Quolorum looks down his glasses and generally upward at the indgninant Mathos. "You are out here with me. You'll have to tell me about what happened in Dunhab, but you were clearly up for the task. As you are this one."

His face brightens at Estra's questions, "Well, you se-" he cuts off when he notices her ectoplasmic companion. "Oh! What have we here?" Dr. Quolorum circles Honaire and mutters while he examines his instrument. "I should be able to account for the presence of this gentleman. Don't worry about the readings going off."

He pauses seeming to wait for more questions before suddenly remembering he hadn't yet answered Estra's, "When the lightning strikes, we will hurry to the strike crater. At the top of the hill, see? You adventuresome folk can protect me on the way and make sure the site is safe when we arrive. When you give the all clear, I will use my ectoplasm containers to gather some samples from the crater. After that, we can all head back to our warm beds."

He turns to Fran and continues, "Good question! I don’t know. I suspect that ectoplasmic residue from red lightning imparted this area with necrotic energy after it struck long ago. Of course, we will find out if this theory is true when the next strike occurs. Exciting, isn’t it?"

Dr. Quolorum emerges from the underbrush dressed for research in the field and examining an instrument of some kind in his hand. He almost runs into your group before he looks up from his readings, recognizes you all, and exclaims, “Hello! Good to see you’ve arrived. Make yourselves comfortable because the next strike shouldn’t occur for a while yet. In the meantime, let me know if you have any questions.”