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That's right. I should divide the food supply away from the city proper. Been too focused on the main cavern.

Thanks! I'll now head back to my drawing board.

Ruyan, you're really good at this. Hopefully, Philip, you'll sober up and remember your good idea!

I¨ll try to keep this post as short as possible in order to give a concise answer.

Yes, the setting is a drow metropolis. And as it happens, it's Menzoberranzan. No surprise there, eh? I just, about an hour ago, noticed that WotC have released this week _edition neutral_ Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue sourcebook.

What I really want to do, is to drop the Kingmaker Kingdom Building rules into the mix. I would like them to make sense in this peculiar environment, game mechanics-wise. In my opinion I have a lot of material to flavour a range of adventures in the Underdark. The issue here is that I would like to simulate/populate in the background all the buildings of Menzoberranzan (don's ask why, I just want to do it). This would give me an idea what kind of what kind of differences there are between the ruling noble houses (in quantity wise, not only quality).

There are several ways to consider the max number of districts/blocks in Menzoberranzan and the surrounding Dark Dominion. I am wondering how many city blocks can I fit into the main cavern of city? The amount which is based on population only gives 246 blocks (as I mentioned earlier), but this feels very low somehow, especially when I have to drop in 60-70 noble houses, which of actually 18 could have other buildings than the actual "manor". If I take the other route, which is by the square miles, I get even lower amount of blocks and districts. As in RAW it says a district is about one square mile and the main cavern is about two square miles, you can see the problem? Of course I've considered the possibility of thinking the city in layers. And in the books it says there is 'buildings' also in the ceiling of the cavern. Where to go with this?

And how about the food supply, the only lake with fungus and deep rothe cattle will not suffice? How that can be portrayed with the current game mechanics (farms, mainly)?

And in the end, I am not dreading re-writing the rules, if it is the only way.

Greetings, fellow travellers.

I like your ideas. Sounds very drow-ish or dwarven with their huge underground delvings.

My first thoughts were: Cool, Brevoy in a great cavern - look in the Underdark campaign setting for more inspiration.
If you can get your hands on it, look for the boxed set of Dwarves of Krynn (? orange box with Larry Elmore cover of a dragon sighting a small band of dwarves pushing a wagon full with treasure) - there you'll find whole floor plans of underground cities.

I would imagine a great cavern (high-domed of course) with lots of chasms criss-crossing the ground, spanned by bridges, lots of entry/exit ways controlled by the different houses/factions.
You definetly need a lake and a river. Oh, and a waterfall coming all the way down from the ceiling (hundreds of feet above), dropping into the lake!

Hm. Second thought: Serpent Skull AP #41: 1000 fangs below has a (IMO) great description an old, long-forgotten Serpentfolk city Ilmurea inhabited by different (feuding) factions which could serve for inspiration.

As for how do the PCs fit in:

One of the faction leaders has died/disappeared, the PCs are able to wrest control from his former subjects and start renovating

An avalanche or similar catastrophy has buried a whole district underneath rocks and mud, the PCs start by clearing the debris and claim the land for their own. Here, another (more powerful) house could actually come in acting as sponsor, helping the PCs by offering slave labor to do the clean-up.

One of the houses has started an excavation leading to the avalanche which has not buried a district but merely opened up a passage to a new system of caverns aka Stolen Lands equivalent.

Exploration:
Either there are passages/cracks offering access to whatever is buried underneath the avalanche or the avalanche has not only buried the district, but a new passage has opened as well, offering access to a vast underground landscape unknown to the city's inhabitants before the catastrophy.

Ruyan.

Thank you, Ruyan!

The setting is very much like Brevoy in a great cavern. With the execption that the society is highly militaristic, matriarchal and dependent on the trade.

I did check on the Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn and I liked the detailed setting description which gave me already good ideas, for example it seems totally mandatory to have separate food warrens. My original plans included only having a biggish lake in the cavern, something like 1/8 of the total area. This lake also had fungus farms in it and in the middle of it is a island which provides much needed protein in the form of underground cattle. Going to consider the possibility of waterfall!

I had not before heard of the The Thousand Fangs Below AP book, and I have to concur that it has very impressing description of the surroundings. Definately going to dig in to it with better time. It did not, anyway give anything on the game mechanics, which I am lacking.

The idea of exploration of a unknown warren is wonderful. I have been considering it to be a part of the later progression of my adventure. Or should I say, it's an option for the PCs as I am trying to get the game be as sandbox as possible. Of course it might be difficult them to resist the lure of an expedition when all the other signifigant houses gear up for the adventure!

I have a fairly good idea how to drop the PCs in to all this, but the initial problem is still the same: How to implement or modify the great Kingmaker kingdom building (and mass battle) rules to comply with this unique city?

Thank you, Philip!

I've to a bit clarify the setting, because perhaps I simplified a bit too much the situation for the opening post. TSo, the PCs are part of a noble house, which still has it old ruler alive and kicking. So, before getting into actual kingdom building there is some scheming to do. This includes using the opportunities to sabotage businesses of other members of the house (NPC), getting alliances (perhaps with someone powerful who will use the PCs later to his own benefit, as Philip suggested), and hopefully in the end PCs reveal the betrayal which have been festering in the family, leading them to take the control of the noble house. Then will the kingdom building really commence!

I like the concept of converting the buildings from other factions (this could likely be interpreted as an indirect attack). Those may also be so neutral buildings which are being converted or their allegiance have been changed to the desired state.

I have the city populated (in a very general way), and due to the reason it is underground, the free space to build something is very limited. There are two main ways to build something: demolish old buildings or mine the city cavern larger (this is closely monitored by the city dwellers as uncontrolled mining could lead to collapse of the cavern (c. mile by mile).

If I approach this issue from the other way around, and presume that there is 250 inhabitants in a city block (as RAW), this means that there is only 102 city blocks for the inhabitants (25500/250) and if I extend this to slaves, it makes 144 city blocks. So 246 city blocks altogether. This feels awfully tight as there are 18 notable noble houses (over 70 altogether), and few merchant houses (syndicates controlled by noble houses), and public buildings (war and magic college, main temple, etc.)

Yes, Philip, I like the idea where you can build buildings actually where ever is a free slot. This might be mandatory to this system to even work. But then again, the noble houses (at least the notable 18) have large estates, almost castles, inside the city. And usually their influence is very strong near those estates. Poor noble houses (over 70%) does not have anything else than more than a modest villas or similar buildings. Giving the whole district could be a bit.. I don't know?

We are not playing the Accountants & Dragons, but I like that the system could make sense in this very specific envinronment.

After frustating research all over the Internet / books I ask the following: Have anyone seen or developed alternate rules for KM urban setting?

Setting: The PCs are young nobles in a large underground metropolis (30k inhabitants + 60k slaves), and are competing with other noble houses and merchant houses for power and land. They start in charge of modest noble house.

What I've been considering / searching:
- How to simulate the situation in the actual city? How to distribute districts etc. with other factions? Should all factions have their own districts which they develop? I'd like the players to be able to build actual KM buildings in the city and this way develop their own noble house. Is this sensible considering that the annihilation of a faction is part of everyday life? Other option is to divide the city in to hexagons? There would be the major attractions visible, but perhaps the other hexagons should be under the fog-of-war. The power in the city among other depends on the amount of the hexagons the players rule. How all this could be done in such way that the game balance is about right?

- The wilderness exploration? The actual city developing should be the center piece of the game, but I would like to make it possible players of explore the dangerous underground surroundings, enabling them to recover slaves, treasures and other resources as mines etc. This should be done in such fashion that the game balance remains somehow intact.

Please, give your opinions, everything is appreciated and nothing ready made is not been expected. I am more than happy also to elaborate on the above message.

[Please merge this with Kingdom Building -thread if necessary]

**off-topic**