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Paradox676 wrote:

Lelomenia wrote:

He’s 15th level or higher? (BAB +15 prereq)

If you are allowing 3rd party (most of this) and 3.5 (improved/greater multiweapon fighting), then i don’t see this as out of line with what you should expect. I would note that i think the attack penalties should be -4 on the mainhand and second hand and -6 on both Aegis arms.

They just got to 15th level. Although 15th level isn't really high level here. I'm running Council Of Wyrms and they are still baby dragons. The character is my son's dragon's bonded kindred.

The penalties are -2 for all the arms. This is in keeping with the rules to two(mulit)-weapon fighting.

to be able to wield weapons with either extra arms, the Aegis must have at least Extra Arms:

Extra Arms wrote:

The extra arms on the aegis’s astral suit gain improved functionality. The aegis gains a +2 circumstance bonus to Climb checks and CMD against grapple attempts for each extra arm that is not holding anything. In addition, one of the arms can wield and use a light or one-handed weapon, a shield, or any other item that can be used with one hand. Attacks made with this additional arm suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls in addition to any penalties for using two weapons. These extra arms do not grant any additional attacks, only alternate arms with which to make the standard attacks.

And the standard penalty for Multi Weapon Fighting is -4 to each attack, not -2.

Multi weapon fighting wrote:

Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.

Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands.

reducing the -10 penalty by 6 leaves you with a -4, etc. It may be assumed that if all the offhands have light weapons, the penalty would be reduced as with Two Weapon Fighting, but i’m not sure if there is an actual rule for that and even...

Ah your right. I was looking at them as all being light weapons.

I think I may have come up with a solution. I'll have to go over with him.

Thanks for the input everyone. It helps.

He’s 15th level or higher? (BAB +15 prereq)

If you are allowing 3rd party (most of this) and 3.5 (improved/greater multiweapon fighting), then i don’t see this as out of line with what you should expect. I would note that i think the attack penalties should be -4 on the mainhand and second hand and -6 on both Aegis arms.

They just got to 15th level. Although 15th level isn't really high level here. I'm running Council Of Wyrms and they are still baby dragons. The character is my son's dragon's bonded kindred.

The penalties are -2 for all the arms. This is in keeping with the rules to two(mulit)-weapon fighting.

The rules for soul knife would allow for manifesting a mind blade (or mindbolt for the soul bolt archetype) in each hand, at the cost of decreased enhancement for each additional blade... however, soularcher is a bit less clear on the subject... as Gilfalas said above it does seem to lean more towards only one hand being used for mind arrows, regardless of how many free hands you have.

That said... nothing is stopping him from manifesting three blades (or bolts) and then using his remaining free hand to manifest an arrow. Ultimately getting the same damage output but without the increased range and crit multiplier on all attacks...

I was looking at that option. But the Soul Archer specifically says each bolt functions as an arrow from a composite longbow.

Off the top of my head I would observe that it says you must have ONE hand free to make and fire a soul arrow. NOT that you can make and fire a soul arrow per free hand. Otherwise normal 2 handed creatures would get twice as many attacks as they list them getting.

Also nowhere does it state that you can use MORE than one hand to fire more soul arrows per round.

So I think your attacks calculations are way off. Multiweapon fighting does not even enter into it as they are not even wielding any actual weapons.

This stems from the emulate range weapon skill that an Soul Knife can get. He was emulating hand cross bows at lower levels. It has been long established that you can use multiweapon fighting with onehanded range weapons. Same goes for if he was throwing daggers.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18138.0

this is where he is pulling the connection for the Soul Archer. Effectively that since a Soul Archer can produce an arrow for each available attack he has. Since if he had auto-reloading crossbows he would have this many attacks. So a Soul Archer who doesn't need to reload will have this many attacks.

Flagged for movement to Third Party Advice and Rules Questions

Thanks Belafon. I didn't know I was in the wrong area.

My son is playing an Aegis/Soulknife/Soul Archer(PRC). He has taken the multiweapon fighting, and improved multiweapon fighting, and Greater multiweapon fighting. feat to work with the extra arms ability from Agis and now wants to take Soul Archer. Before he was emulating hand cross bows as a soulknife. His intent is to have a Soul Archer that is capable of producing 12 arrows a round. According to the rules as written he is right, however it is producing a balance issue in the group. I was just wondering if we may be misinterpreting the rules as written or misinterpreting the intent of the powers. This is the line that we are talking about from the Soul Archer:

A soul archer can choose to shape her mind blade as a semisolid arrow of psychic energy and forms a mind arrow as a free action. If the soul archer has the ability to make multiple attacks, he can create multiple mind arrows as part of an attack. The soul archer must have one hand free to create and fire a mind arrow.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psioni c-prestige-classes/soul-archer/

So if he can create an arrow as a free action, he has 4 hands, and has multiweapon fighting, and improved multiweapon fighting, and Greater multiweapon fighting do the rules as written intend on a Soul Archer being able to put out this kind of fire power? This is 3 attacks per hand at a base of 2d6+wis damage per arrow (size huge from Aegis) for a total of 24d6 + wis before he adds any elemental or other bladeskill effects. I'm not mad or trying to nerf his character. Especially if he found a cool build. I just asking if other DM's have seen this build or something like it and did you allow it?

My son is playing an Aegis/Soulknife/Soul Archer(PRC). He has taken the multiweapon fighting, and improved multiweapon fighting, and Greater multiweapon fighting. feat to work with the extra arms ability from Agis and now wants to take Soul Archer. Before he was emulating hand cross bows as a soulknife. His intent is to have a Soul Archer that is capable of producing 12 arrows a round. According to the rules as written he is right, however it is producing a balance issue in the group. I was just wondering if we may be misinterpreting the rules as written or misinterpreting the intent of the powers. This is the line that we are talking about from the Soul Archer:

A soul archer can choose to shape her mind blade as a semisolid arrow of psychic energy and forms a mind arrow as a free action. If the soul archer has the ability to make multiple attacks, he can create multiple mind arrows as part of an attack. The soul archer must have one hand free to create and fire a mind arrow.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psioni c-prestige-classes/soul-archer/

So if he can create an arrow as a free action, he has 4 hands, and has multiweapon fighting, and improved multiweapon fighting, and Greater multiweapon fighting do the rules as written intend on a Soul Archer being able to put out this kind of fire power? This is 3 attacks per hand at a base of 2d6+wis damage per arrow (size huge from Aegis) for a total of 24d6 + wis before he adds any elemental or other bladeskill effects. I'm not mad or trying to nerf his character. Especially if he found a cool build. I just asking if other DM's have seen this build or something like it and did you allow it?

What ruling would all of you agree with?

First: always take the final ruling of the DM.

Second:

I’m afraid that your friend is correct. The feat reduces the cost of other metamagic feats by 1 for each time it is taken(min +1). IE. A quickened (+4) fireball (3rd LV) is a 6th level spell not 7th with improved metamagic. If you took Improved Metmagic 4 times it would drop the cost of quickened spells to +1 (not +0).

The rule is the same with stacking metamagic feats. All metamagic feats gain benefit from Improved metamagic at the same time.

So the wizard's interpratation is correct. A Quickened, Maximized, Empowered magic missile is a 4th level spell.

Now with that said, your DM most likely let him take the feat with the understanding that it would take off the top not the bottom. Your DM has final ruling and can make that adjustment.