OilHorse's page

OilHorse wrote:

Just getting back into the wonderful world of Golarion after a multi year absence.

I am missing some core rule books in 1st edition from my files and am having a hard time buying them from the store.

I don't even see 2nd edition files for d/l.

What am I missing here?

Is this page of use?

That’s most of the PF1 rulebooks and give PDF and print options, when available.

I opened your page and it gave .pdf options. Opened my own version of the same page and it is showing me .pdf options.

This is my 1st time in a lot of areas of this new (to me) website. i havent really been here since the start of 2020.

When I was first into my digital library it took more than 1 visit to finally get everything I own. It acts weird to me.

Time to fill in my missing books.

Thx all.

What happens when you try to buy PDFs of 1st edition rules?

The PDFs for PF2 are for sale on the same page as the print versions. If you don't see a button to buy them, make sure the items have actually been released. You cannot buy PDFs before the release date of the print item.

Only gave the option for hardcover...when still in print.

but...see next reply

Just getting back into the wonderful world of Golarion after a multi year absence.

I am missing some core rule books in 1st edition from my files and am having a hard time buying them from the store.

I don't even see 2nd edition files for d/l.

What am I missing here?

If an attack of opportunity disrupts your action can you change your action if the initial action can't be completed?

Examples:
I try to use Manyshot which requires a full round action, and my bow is disarmed can I just take a different full round action?

If I decide to move, and get tripped can I use that move action to do something else instead, such as stand up?

If you were casting a spell and it got disrupted via an AoO can you start casting another spell?

Obviously no.

Action declared and negated.

OilHorse wrote:

Well "some random peon" will be a 16th level caster, who has tapped into a special power that grants him a multitude of abilities that the 17th level caster would be amazed at. All the while the "random peon" is a favored "peon" of the Queen of Mendev and is leading the charge in the latest crusade against the demons in the Worldwound, and has been making serious gains in the fight.

But they don't start there. They start as level 1 peons. Granted, they get their mythic power-up at the end of book 1, but if the player is trying to save time by doing this in parallel, then waiting until level 16 to make the request isn't going to accomplish that.

There's also the question of why a 17th level wizard has 1/3 of a year to kill instead of participating in the effort directly. With access to 9th level spells, they could and should be altering the course of events. Said NPC should be dealing with the Worldwound themselves and not taking a vacation to make magic items for someone else.

I don't think your player has thought this through. The reason why the PC's are the ones that are dealing with world-ending threats is because suitably high level NPC's aren't available. They either don't exist, or are somewhere else, occupied with some other world-ending threat.

The biggest part of what you are getting wrong is that because the PC was 1st level at one time he should be looked upon like he is 1st level later. Let's be real. Said 16th level sorcerer PC with 7 tiers of Mythic Power minimum is more powerful than 17th level wizard. So I doubt that the 17th level Wiz will look down upon the 16th level 7 tier Sorcerer.

We are at the end of book 3. While not directly stated I think if you look through the thread you would find that the PCs are not at the beginning of the AP, they are much further along.

The answer as to "why" has already been answered. The Queen of Mendev requests it. These are the Heroes of Kenabres. This is the party that is on the front line of the most dangerous missions. Next is a trip to the Abyss. Previously they saved Kenabres, next she sent them to Drezen to liberate it and recover an artifact to keep it secure again. They have done that and stayed to be the main force to slowly retake the Wounded Lands, dealing crippling blow after crippling blow to the demon forces.

If they request something like this as a favor from the queen, which they will thoroughly pay the costs for, I am seeing little reason to to have the Queen deny them.

Maybe in your game she would. That's cool. But don't be the guy that will try and tell us that we are playing it wrong. Your definition of BADWRONGFUN holds no water here.

All I wanted was people to give advice as to how much they would charge for such a staff. I prefer you stick on topic.

If you wish to hold a different conversation about all this start a new thread, I will happily come in and politely discuss things with you.

OilHorse wrote:

We didn't get into specifics about that part yet, though I do believe that the idea is to fund a caster of the appropriate level to actually create it.

Seriously? And where, exactly, are they going to find this 17th level wizard, and why doesn't said NPC have something better to do then spend 4 months of their life making an ultra-power staff for some random peon?

Well "some random peon" will be a 16th level caster, who has tapped into a special power that grants him a multitude of abilities that the 17th level caster would be amazed at. All the while the "random peon" is a favored "peon" of the Queen of Mendev and is leading the charge in the latest crusade against the demons in the Worldwound, and has been making serious gains in the fight.

OilHorse wrote:

By rough calculations he can do this 12 times through his spell slots.

21 mythic surges

1 mythic surge and an hour rest he will get all his slots back.

252 Wishes per day is plainly broken, but remains so if you charge him 300,000gp for the staff or even 3,000,000gp. The problem seems to be the capstone power, not the gp cost of the staff.

Making the staff cost more will defer the staff until he can afford it.

Again. The power level is not the issue, at least not when I thought to worst was spared until level 20, which will just be the last half of the last book.

Now with this robe...it is even more important to drive the cost up ifI allow it as a craftable, purchasable item. Now I am most assured that I will make him have to make it a legendary item.

It's the Robe of Arcane Heritage, which I think appears in both Ultimate Equipment and the Advanced Player's Guide. It flat-out gives a +4 to your level for both the strength of your powers and determining which you have access to (most effects don't give you early access), at a cost of 16,000 GP. It's a Body Slot item, too, so probably not much competition.

Very interesting. I will need to look it up.

OilHorse wrote:

So my WotR players...well, player to be honest...is planning for the future. Level 20 to be exact, but his planning starts at level 16-ish.

He wants to create a Staff of Wish.

It will take all 10 charges to cast the Wish spell.

By the formula this will cost ~131k gp. His math, and I trust his mathing ability.

As a 'Wrath of the Righteous' player, I can't believe a player would even dream of having the 4+ months of downtime in this campaign: We've had maybe 9 weeks of downtime total as of hitting level 15 (about a week after the first module, a month after the 2nd and 3rd, and we just finished the 4th module and don't expect to have any real down time before starting #5).

Shrug. Different DM, I gave them a near month after book 1, The Queen was not next door, the truth had to travel to her, etc...After book 2 I gave close to the same and have given down time here and there during book 3 also. Book 3 expects there to be some passage of time...but just not too much or other situations advance. They will have downtime again at teh end of book 3, and during book 4 I see how this will take some time. It is book 5 and 6 that the story starts to ramp up quickly to the final confrontations.

GM Rednal wrote:

*Glances in* By the way, for 330k, you could buy approximately 86 Scrolls of Wish. Those would broadly be usable faster and easier than a staff that needs recharging.

You forgot material components. You would only get about 11 scrolls for that much.

The bigger issue is that the player will be using the Arcane Bloodline capstone. IIRC there is even an item which lets you get it 4 levels earlier by advancing your bloodline by 4 levels. This means 4 levels of wish spam. And Wish is really, really good as a combat spell. Like "will save or you all get teleported into the sun or the negative energy plane" every encounter type good.

Do you have any more information about said item?

It should be an artifact and not something capable of construction by a PC.

Remember that you, as GM, are final arbiter of what is allowed in customer magic items. Just because there is a guideline in place for how to get a rough estimate of what such an item would cost to create doesn't mean you have to allow any such item to be created.

I thought about that.

I have let himknow that I may require his to make it a Legendary item as per the mythic rules...most likely get it to at least medium artifact.

Again. Powerwise, I am not having an issue. I will let him have the staff.

I won't let him have it at a 131k gp pricetag. That is just way too low. I have mentioned to him that I am starting the cost at 330k-ish.

So I am wondering what others would say it should cost.

hmm just a waste.

he could have planned better.
my wotw Asmodenian cleric\exalted could at level 15 use a limited form of miracle (the level 10 exalted Perform miracle class ability) for free once a day. and once he got to level 17 (9th levle casting), since he picked divine subdomain (from magic domain) for his exlated level 5 Expanded portfolio class ability. he got a 1/day spell like ability to cast miracle. so that is 1 full and one lesser miricles at level 17 with no cost added...
(also 1/day resuraction as spell like ability at levels 13+ no added cost)

Congrats. Not sure how what you did with a completely different PC in a completely different game invalidates what he is doing...

Here's the greatest weakness - it's a staff. Hardness 5, 10 hp or so. It is one chain lightning away from incineration. It is simply smarter to spend the funds on a pair of rings that are easily hidden than a really expensive stick... ;)

hahaha...that would be a sure fire Dink move. Let him craft it then break it in his first combat.

OilHorse wrote:

Not when you factor in that by L20 he will be able to cast, through the staff alone with no charges from the staff used, theoretically, 12x21 Wish spells a day.

What lets him do that?

wildblood sor arcane(sage) capstone.

: At 20th level, your body surges with arcane power. You can add any metamagic feats that you know to your spells without increasing their casting time, although you must still expend higher-level spell slots. Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges.

By this time they will be about 10th tier.

30 spell levels to cast a wish through the staff with Arcane Apotheosis.

By rough calculations he can do this 12 times through his spell slots.

21 mythic surges

1 mythic surge and an hour rest he will get all his slots back.

You know honestly I would have no problem with it doing the copy spells wish effect I think I would just want to regulate the big flashy Wish effects. (the dm abjucation ones) I think that would be my main worry. I don't think 3 wishes a month is going to break your game, but that is my opinion.

Honestly I would probably tell the player we will see how it goes and retain the right to veto at a later point if it becomes game breaking.

I do think it should cost quite a bit more then the ring. 1 (or 3) shot items being noticeably cheaper then items that can do their ability forever albeit it only so many per month makes since.

if they had to maybe burn expensive gems or something to recharge it I would let that regulate the cost.

Yeah, power wise I am not worried.

This is WotR and power containment is really out the window. This is thoroughly a free for all.

I am more just looking at the cost of the item. I don't think it is priced right when going off the formula. I am looking at what others think it more inline.

Even the most powerful staff in the game, that is purchasable, is the Staff of Power and that is 235k. This is more powerful than that in many respects.

this seems like a terrible waste of funds

Not when you factor in that by L20 he will be able to cast, through the staff alone with no charges from the staff used, theoretically, 12x21 Wish spells a day.

Ring_of_Gyges wrote:

The formula gives an estimate of 131,120gp and you are indeed free to change that, but it doesn't seem crazy to me.

To create a staff of Wish he will have to be able to cast Wish (spell trigger item prerequisites can not be avoided by simply increasing the DC). So, at 17th level he will have the ability to cast Wish once for 25,000gp or once every ten days for 130,000gp. How good is the latter?

Well, to get a savings over simply casting Wish he will need to use the staff six times, which will take him 182 days (132 days to get the first Wish, 50 days to get the next 5).

Once the party hits level 17, will the entire campaign last more than 182 days? If not, the staff is a colossal waste of time and money. If so, what the hell are they dawdling for? What could they possibly be doing which will keep demigods with 17 levels and however many mythic tiers busy for 6 months?

I'm not up on the mythic rules, are there ways to make and/or charge the staff faster? Under the core rules, they just don't have the time.

I'm thinking along the same lines as this guy

really doesn't seem that crazy to me.

ok.

the ap is designed to take place over a fair amount of time. It is not like most other APs where it finishes up by level 15-17 and you "just" get to being able to cast Wish when you are finishing up. This is a full L20 AP. Only the final book has a hard line short timer.

But this isn't about the time to craft. Once the item is in hand it is powerful item.

Do you think that an item that can cast 3 wishes a month is fairly insignificantly more costly than an item that can only do it 3 times before it loses all its' magic?

OilHorse wrote:

Eltacolibre wrote:

using all ten charges has been pointed before by the paizo staff as being cheese and say most staffs at most should divide charges by 3 not by 10.

Of course, your game, so you can do whatever you want but anyway...if you still want to allow him to spend 10 charges to cast Wish, you can follow the guideline of magic item creation, where you do a reality check on the price of the staff compared to other items.

comparing the 3 wishes that don't recharge to his staff, you would be look ing at least at quadruple the price of the ring. So something like 520 000 gp.

Can you point to a staff member saying as such.

Why quadruple. I would like to hear your reasoning. I off the top of my head said I would have it cost 2.5 times the price he was quoting.

I have no issue with the staff at that point into the campaign that just drives way off the deep end of balance, but I do not want to just make it that easy.

So if I could hear your reasons why you would quadruple the cost I would get to see how another sees it.

sure:

Sean K. Reynold in 2010.

Not quite as damning as I was hoping.

Around the time of attaining 16th level, is the group even going to have 132 days of consecutive down time for him to craft that staff?

We didn't get into specifics about that part yet, though I do believe that the idea is to fund a caster of the appropriate level to actually create it.

The AP does advance over months and years as it is actually a war. The 5th Crusade is not expected to complete in a few weeks, so for many actions like this there is a fair amount of downtime to do it.

using all ten charges has been pointed before by the paizo staff as being cheese and say most staffs at most should divide charges by 3 not by 10.

Of course, your game, so you can do whatever you want but anyway...if you still want to allow him to spend 10 charges to cast Wish, you can follow the guideline of magic item creation, where you do a reality check on the price of the staff compared to other items.

comparing the 3 wishes that don't recharge to his staff, you would be look ing at least at quadruple the price of the ring. So something like 520 000 gp.

Can you point to a staff member saying as such.

Why quadruple. I would like to hear your reasoning. I off the top of my head said I would have it cost 2.5 times the price he was quoting.

I have no issue with the staff at that point into the campaign that just drives way off the deep end of balance, but I do not want to just make it that easy.

So if I could hear your reasons why you would quadruple the cost I would get to see how another sees it.

Takes him 10 wishes to recharge one over the course of 10 days. M component cost he left off his pricing, or he misapplied that cost. Thus, he has to spend 250,000 gp to recharge ONE wish. Long-term, it is much cheaper to pony up 1,250,000 gp to integrate the M component into the staff. (Staves can be recharged, so one has to supply 50 25,000 gp diamonds during the construction of the staff.) The M component cost is additive. It should not be reduced just because the staff has to nom its entire payload to power a single wish.

That'd be my ruling at least. ;)

Spell lvl x caster lvl x 400 / charges used

9*17*400/10 = 6120
Material component x 50 / charges used
25000*50/10 = 125000
Total cost
131120

Cast wish for 10 charges

Here is the calculations..which I do believe is correct.

And to recharge a staff you do not need to spend the same spell and components to recharge. Just need to spend a spell slot of the highest level of spell in the staff. Since there is only a Wish spell only level 9 spell slots can be used to recharge. So, only 1 charge per day total can be recharged.

So my WotR players...well, player to be honest...is planning for the future. Level 20 to be exact, but his planning starts at level 16-ish.

He wants to create a Staff of Wish.

It will take all 10 charges to cast the Wish spell.

By the formula this will cost ~131k gp. His math, and I trust his mathing ability.

I have already said that that price is just plain wrong.

Ring of 3 wishes is 120k and becomes nonmagical after the 3rd wish.

The Tomes of +5 bonus to an ability score are 137k and again are rendered inert after use.

This is a 3 Wish per month item basically...and the insanity gets more fun when he gets to level 20 (he is a wildblooded Arcane(Sage) Sorcerer).

What do you think it should cost?

I don't have an issue with him making this item...I also have a cost in mind...I want to gauge pricing thoughts from the community.

In my homebrew I changed the names to:

cp: pennies
sp: dimes
gp: dollars
pp: grand

easy terms to remember, especially in the denominations regularly used, and the pp has a name that shows how special it really is

The example of this combination of choices and the arguments people are giving for justifying their combination is the reason Pathfinder has reached critical mass and is about to collapse into a black hole. This isn't a role playing game anymore it's a morass.

Luckily the back hole contains Starfinder and a clean new rule set.

I say clean because the argument that a light bringer elf should benefit from a shadowbound curse makes me feel dirty. *shakes head sadly*

Do you think this type of gaming isn't going to exist in Starfinder?

Don't kid yourself, as options are released the same thing is going to happen.

So far the majority of the posters here have given you the same advice. You came looking for advice and have been given it.

Either heed it or play a game that you are frustrated with due to one snowflake.

He has been kicked out of multiple groups and hasn't changed?

Why do you think that you will be successful? There is no reason to think this. I think that booting him has a better chance...after giving an ultimatum, change how you play or don't come back.

Your options are to kick him or let him do as he wishes.

We have established some ground rules for characters in the group, he has made it very clear it's chaotic evil priestess or nothing - as our group is so small if he doesn't play frequently one or two of the others back out too.

He can play Chaotic Evil but the crux is when he says "I'm just playing my character" the arguement works both ways too, when other players get mad in character they're doing what they should do too and it doesn't sit right with him, he takes it personal, etc.

He's been removed from groups before for his toxic behaviour (power gaming, rules lawyering and so on) and we are trying our best to educate/teach him how to work with a party and show how his character can cooperate within guidelines (Baba Yaga has basically compelled the party to work together to save her, which is how the unusual party dynamic was explained at the start).

For instance Orcus sent a Beblith at the party to get the Priestess and the Paladin defender her Ally as much as she annoyed her yet the Priestess just hid behind some summoned monsters unapologetic about her cowardice. The Paladin almost had their Armour ruined in that fight, and the Paladin player was annoyed at their cowardice (as was the group) but nobody took it personal. I've told this player they could easily do that and turn the tables on him, since he takes everything personal.

I know when I suggest he play non-evil he will literally walk away, which is unfortunate - the other players don't play nearly enough and when he pulls out they will probably lose interest with the group size reduced to 3.

Is there a way to invite another player?

Spacelard wrote:

*sigh*

'I'm just playing my character'... Just kick them and move on.
Anyone who uses this line, probably with a smirk, doesn't deserve a second chance. From what you have said anything else would be wasting everyone's time.

Minus the "probably with a smirk" part, I disagree with this. You wouldn't kick a paladin player for preemptively attacking a demon the group was trying to negotiate with for "just playing their character" (even though I kinda disagree with this cliche way of playing a paladin, I understand why a more common person might think that's how they are supposed to play the paladin). Likewise, if the GM actually allows you to be chaotic evil, then they should expect you to play chaotic evil.

There comes a time where the player needs to take a read of the group and put their own entitlement aside.

Said player was making a Demon worshiping cleric for a group that was populated with a Paladin and other good aligned PCs.

I would expect the same for a player making a Paladin in a group of evil aligned PCs.

Definitely expect table variance.

Very True.

The Paladin should have killed the Priestess already anyway.

Let that happen, then force the player to play a "G" PC and enforce the "G". If they refuse then they have made the decision to not play in your group, problem solved.

Really, is there any reason to keep this player? Do they own the play area? Someone's bf/gf/spouse?

It is also possible to read it in the manner that it "can" but not "will" repair damage.

I can concede that the spell gives the special abilities of a creature so possibly it may get regen.

Didn't you already post this and it was pointed out that at 0 HP the Simulacrum becomes a pile of snow?

@ Ravingdork: Does their regen even actually work? I am not overly familiar with the spell, but isn't their only one way to repair damage to it, and Regen doesn't work?

The simple answer, which has been stated already, is that there is no wording within Oracle Curses that says You cannot overcome the penalties.

I am not talking about removing the effect, just overcoming it, and that is all that is happening.

OilHorse wrote:

If an oracle with the lame curse gets a way to permanently fly is the Oracle breaking some rules?

Simple answer, no.

Then no real difference.

If an oracle with the lame curse gets a way to permanently fly is the Oracle breaking some rules?

OilHorse wrote:

Spacelard wrote:

Summoning the eidolon is a supernatural ability... and it is not subject to Augment Summoning.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I think the 2nd level spell Summon Eidolon was referenced, not the class ability to summon eidolon.

It wasn't

"Augment Summoning applies to the summon monster SLA as well because it functions as the spell Summon Monster.

The eidolon however does not benefit unless summoned using the Summon Eidolon spell."

It has been thrashed out in the threads years ago if you want to search, during and after playtesting the class. The quote from Jason is from one of those threads discussing if Augment Summon effects the eidolon. You have it the wrong way around.

Augment Summoning works with the 2nd level spell, Summon Eidolon.
Augment Summoning doesn't work with the class ability to summon it, ie you can't spend two feats (which you would take anyway) to get a cheap 'always on' +2 STR/CON to your eidolon.

No. The OP was referencing the spell not the class ability. That was what I was saying.

So what you are referencing is of no consequence.

Summoning the eidolon is a supernatural ability... and it is not subject to Augment Summoning.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I think the 2nd level spell Summon Eidolon was referenced, not the class ability to summon eidolon.

Now here is some ideas for how to use this:

- Use a Bloodrager with the Abyssal Bloodline. This lets you enlarge yourself as part of your bloodrage (even if you are not humanoid). Moreover, you increase your morale bonus to Strength at higher levels.

- Find a way to cast True Strike (Bloodragers learn this spell). This will let you ignore concealment and Mirror Images with a huge bonus to your attack roll.

- Add Devastating Strike (and Arcane Strike/Blooded Arcane Strike for Bloodragers) to the mix. Extra damage is always nice.

With Power Attack at Level 12, Improved Vital Strike, Devistating Strike, Bloodied Arcane Strike, a +1 Impact Greatsword with a level in Titan Fighter, you have your damage at:

108 - (6d6)x3 - Improved Vital Strike w/ Furious Finish
STR x1.5 - Weapon wielded with two hands
12 - 3x4 - Power Attack (BAB +12)
6 - 2x3 - Blooded Arcane Strike
4 - 2x2 - Devastating Strike
1 - +1 Impact Greatsword

Total:
131 + (STR x1.5)

I question whether the +1 enchantment or the Impact enchantment will work as the item also specifically calls out " it doesn’t include damage from other magical sources, such as enhancement bonuses, spells, and magic weapon special abilities."

I would not, as a GM, say it was an evil act just because it was his job as the executioner.

Anyway, yeah, the DR is an issue given the types of foes that are faced in Wrath. A shaman isn't typically a direct-damage dealer but there are two big options that might work around this scenario a little bit, if they haven't already occurred to your player.

First, the slumber hex. If your shaman hasn't already burned his one and only permitted witch hex on that one, well, he's walked way from - by far - the most powerful effect available to him. My shaman basically used spells and effects to debuff his foes; once he got high-level, he had an hours-long Persistent aura of chaos (I think, away from home and character sheets to double check the spell) which meant anyone with a mind who got within 20ft of him had to make a Will save or be shaken. Heightened it as well to jack the DC up. With stacking of penalties, by late-game, we were able to pick specific bad guys to say "hey, jerk-o, you've got -8 to saves... and oh, slumber." It took some setting up, and it didn't happen nearly as often as a DM would fear, but it was excellent. Final comment on this... as my shaman's one mythic ability, he picked up Mythic Spell, specifically so that aura of chaos would require two rolls. Right. Persisted. Right. Roll four times against my best DC, jerk-o.

After having to work to make encounters fun and challenging for everyone, then the Slumber Hex would dismantle it. I talked to my player and asked him to remove it. He did so. He is a good player like that.

Second, Arcane Enlightenment. This is the "best" shaman ability because if he uses his wandering hex ability to pick it up, he can arguably change the arcane spells he adds to his list each day. Suddenly he can have access to what-he-needs, given a day or two to prep. And THAT is where spells-that-hurt-demons comes from.

The birds thing is very clever, and I suspect I would enjoy playing with this player at my table, either as a DM or co-player. But physical damage is physical damage, and falling birds... are going to get negated by DR.

There are so many moving parts to his PC I am unable to wrap my head around it...which is fine. He is someone I trust to not take advantage of the freedom I let him have with his PC.

The shaman player and the archer player are the ones that are coming up with this idea, even more the archer player. He likes to think outside of the box...they both do. I like them as players.

===AFTERTHOUGHT===

Could the Clustered Shot feat be worked into this scenario in any way? If the shaman was thrusting the summoned birds downwards, say via some telekinetic effect, it might be reasonable as a DM to let that feat clump all the damage into one pool before DR...

It is not working like that. And our archer is already using Clustered Shot to great effect...I don't need another.

OilHorse wrote:

My Self wrote:

It is smart targeting, since I suspect the eagles won't needlessly plop themselves onto the ground after a given target dies. Thus damage is conserved. Also, the delay is a function of summons existing for 1 round/CL, which means that you can choose to target on the 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. (up to 1 round/CL) instead of needing to target on the 3rd. Also ties back to smart targeting - eagles that don't drop (because the target dies/leaves line of sight) can drop on later rounds. It's not perfect damage distribution, but it's much better than wasting shots if there aren't enough targets this round or you kill a target without using all your shots.

But this is what I was saying though.

All Eagles are given targets and dive at same time. There is no "saving the shot"

So it is not smart targeting. If a shot doesn't drop the target and you had only 1 shot target it then it is up. If you target it with multiple shots and only needed the 1st shot then "too bad, so sad".

Targets would be declared at beginning of third round and could not be changed.

But don't the eagles independently act on their own (probably shared) initiative once given orders? A sample command: "Drop on the beardy guy until he's dead" will cause eagles to drop on him. So the first eagle goes, drops on the beardy guy, and hurts him. The second eagle acts after the first one, sees the beardy guy is still up and moving, and drops on the beardy guy, killing him. The third eagle's turn rolls around, and he sees the beardy guy is dead. So he doesn't do anything, maybe flies in a circle, or poops on the beardy guy's corpse. It would be reasonable (as a balance-minded GM) to make them all pick targets before dropping, but normal turn initiative works sequentially.

TBH, if we are talking about the more reasonable, eagles doing 2d6 damage each from their dive-bomb, then yes. I don't have an issue with allowing sequential targeting.

If it is the original idea stated in the opening post, then no. I would force a simultaneous targeting, and thus not allowing target switching.

This is what happens when I am having multiple conversations involving differing mechanics.

Just to share a little bit of further insight. The spell-caster that summoned the, "dive-bombing eagles" in question, has an indirect way to communicate with them. His familiar, an intelligent thrush, can communicate with animals.

bitter lily wrote:

necromental, can you tell me more about your variant?

Basically, anyone who is proficient with all martial weapons is also proficient in unarmed strikes, in effect having IUS.

I like this.

OilHorse wrote:

I am not as worried about the additional DPR. The player that would have this is more likely to place a Fortune hex on an ally or Evil Eye an enemy than he is to cast more damage on the enemy.

Meaning that the enemy would be stuck staring helplessly upwards as the eagles dive-bombed.

This player is very smart and likes to think out of the box, so I would not be surprised if this was his plan all along.

Btw, if we're going higher level, are we still limited to suicidal eagles? Why not... something more suitable? I want to see numbers on a 7th-level Roc! Both what a falling roc would realistically do in damage (and 2d6 for a mere eagle really is persuasive, you know), and whether it would survive. Just imagine a repeat-action bomber!

But then, if you're going with a 6th-level spell, why not simply suggest Cone of Cold?

Oh gosh the headaches have started...

First up, congrats on working with a} your player and b} the community to get this done. You've taken a lot of "no, no, and more no" very well. Kudos.

Hey, thanks man. Many took it much harder than I thought it would be taken.

Second, in my opinion - and I've played both mythic and a shaman, and indeed a mythic shaman - there's a couple must-haves this needs.

First, DR absolutely needs to stay. If the effect is physical damage - because birds are falling out of the sky onto me - and I have a resistance to physical damage, DR should apply. As a DM, I used that to deadly effect in an encounter my players faced against a Huge white dragon in a snowstorm (they can see through snow). It "introduced" itself by falling straight down onto them. Its DR mitigated the falling damage. If its targets had DR (there was a barbarian), I'd allow it to apply.

It is my understanding that DR specifically would not apply. This is a benefit for the players, and I am ok with that. This is WotR and so most things they are fighting (Demons) have DR of some kind.

Second, there's always an escape clause. Either the thrushes need to make an attack roll to actually hit their targets, or the targets are allowed a Reflex save to mitigate (halve) the damage.

Yes. I was mistaken and in every sense of what we have talked about (the pseudo-spell I used as a place holder, or the actual series of event to create the dive-bombing Eagles) an attack roll was supposed to be made.

Third, the specifics. Birds have very little mass. It's how they can fly. Lots of wing surface area, very little mass. Yes, falling damage is 1d6 per 10ft, but man, it's literally a featherball that's hitting you from 200ft up. It's absolutely, positively not going to do the damage that a high-mass, low-surface-area object such as a bowling ball will do. Suggestion: if a bird stopped flapping its wings at height and just fell, it'd probably do enough damage to kill itself. Maybe double. Or even triple, if you're generous. But not an average of 70 hit points of damage. Again, because of low mass. So, hey, I'd say a bird falling out of the sky should do somewhere between 2d6 and 6d6, depending.

Good luck.

In the pseudo-spell I have not talked about modifying the damage, but I have corrected the damage the Eagles would do to come in line with what they should be doing, 2d6 (2d6 base, 1/2 damage for light weight and doubled from height). The Eagles will be killed, and that is where another topic raised its head, as they are summoned creatures so they won't actually be dead.

Stuffy Grammarian wrote:

OilHorse wrote:

Your Welcome?

No, you're welcome.

"Your welcome" isn't always grammatically incorrect. If you extend a welcome, then it is definitely your welcome. For example: "Your welcome is much appreciated on this fine forum". But this seems to the be case in which you are welcome, so you're welcome.

I blame autocorrect...and/or my fat fingers....

It is smart targeting, since I suspect the eagles won't needlessly plop themselves onto the ground after a given target dies. Thus damage is conserved. Also, the delay is a function of summons existing for 1 round/CL, which means that you can choose to target on the 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. (up to 1 round/CL) instead of needing to target on the 3rd. Also ties back to smart targeting - eagles that don't drop (because the target dies/leaves line of sight) can drop on later rounds. It's not perfect damage distribution, but it's much better than wasting shots if there aren't enough targets this round or you kill a target without using all your shots.

But this is what I was saying though.

All Eagles are given targets and dive at same time. There is no "saving the shot"

So it is not smart targeting. If a shot doesn't drop the target and you had only 1 shot target it then it is up. If you target it with multiple shots and only needed the 1st shot then "too bad, so sad".

Targets would be declared at beginning of third round and could not be changed.

A single casting of this spell has similar DPR to three uses of the variant Scorching Ray. However, this assumes that you spend all three rounds casting. Since you only spend one of them casting, and have 2 rounds of onset, you can boost your DPR further by doing things like... I don't know, casting super-Scorching Rays? So really:

3x 6th level variant Scorching Ray (63d6) (3 rounds)
1x ?th level OP Spell Effect + 2x 6th level Variant Scorching Ray (102d6) (3 rounds)

The caveat is that, on a round-by-round basis:
Per-Round Damage (d6)
Round _______ 1 ____ 2 ____ 3
3x ray _______ 21 ___ 21 ___ 21
OP + 2x ray ___ 0 ___ 21 ___ 81
Total Damage (d6)
3x ray _______ 21 ___ 42 ___ 63
OP + 2x ray ___ 0 ___ 21 __ 102

You basically end up taking the opportunity cost of not hurting anybody in the first round, to backload all your damage and get a ~66% total damage boost. It's like the impact of using a buff spell, except that you would have spent the spell slot anyways.

You also have a greater chance of having the spell disrupted during casting, or even dispelled/countered over the extra round of energy building.

Or not boost your DPR. There are too many factors to consider what could happen in the extra 2 rounds.

I get where you are heading with your calculations. And maybe it still needs more limitations, or a higher level. I think that 6th level is a solid starting point though. Maybe make it 2 full round casting time? That would limit the possible abuse of bonus DPR?

I am not as worried about the additional DPR. The player that would have this is more likely to place a Fortune hex on an ally or Evil Eye an enemy than he is to cast more damage on the enemy.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

However, another thing that strikes me is that, in my experience, by the time you get 6th level spells, most fights are over after 3 rounds. In that context, 1,000,000d6 per ray isn't unreasonable, because there's no one left to use it on. A combat spell that takes more than a full round to get going isn't going to see much actual use in combat.

Come to think of it, a spell like that would be a fun addition for an NPC BBEG. He casts it at the start of the big fight, and you decide whether to fly up in the air and dispel it, or else just pound him into the ground so that, 3 rounds later, he's not able to select targets.

LOL.

Your Welcome?

OilHorse wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

OilHorse wrote:

21d6/ray level 6 scorching ray

Sorry, I have no idea where this is coming from. It would be 21d6 divided among 3 rays, not "per ray."

However, another thing that strikes me is that, in my experience, by the time you get 6th level spells, most fights are over after 3 rounds. In that context, 1,000,000d6 per ray isn't unreasonable, because there's no one left to use it on. A combat spell that takes more than a full round to get going isn't going to see much actual use in combat.

The spell effect I mentioned in the op takes 3 rounds to happen.

In that scenario the caster using the 6th level version of Scorching Ray you mentioned would be able to get off 3 of those spells. Each of those spells has 3 rays dealing 7d6. Over the 3 rounds it is like 3 rays dealing 21d6.

Did I do a bit better explaining my process? I know I can be a little muddled when explaining things.

We can look at it like:

Level 6 Scorching Ray over 3 rounds: 63d6 total damage
OP Spell Effect: 60d6 total damage.

You should be comparing it as:

3x 6th level variant Scorching Ray (63d6) (3 rounds)
1x ?th level OP Spell Effect (60d6) (1 round + 2 rounds onset)

Spell slots are a finite source, and casting time vs. onset time is important as well. Also, increased onset is almost infinitely preferable to an equal amount of increased casting time, if you are able to select the targets at the end of the onset. Considering that this effect can also probably be delayed by a small number of rounds (like the Delayed Blast Fireball), and targeting is "smart" (you select subsequent targets after you roll damage for each hit, instead of declaring all targets first, then rolling damage), that also adds some value. A 1st level spell should not do 600d6 damage, even if I spend an hour casting it. Similar logic applies here.

Fair reply.

Spells slots are a finite source but there are ways to increase the number of castable spells you have at your disposal, including wands, staves and scrolls. Add in pearls of power and their ilk.

Yes, of course it is preferable to have a longer onset time, but it is still time that the spell is not having an effect. It is just that it cannot be disrupted after the first round.

The targeting is an interesting topic, and I never really thought of it. Thinking of how the actual effect with the Thrush giving orders and the Eagles then divebombing,I would have to say that the targeting is done at the start of the 3rd round then damage is rolled vs each target. So I guess it is not "smart targeting".

I also never mentioned that the effect can be delayed after it is cast.

The comparison was really made to set apples to apples in terms of dice of damage. In 3 rounds the 2 spells are dealing the same dice of damage. There are many other factors in play but just based on damage dice these 2 spells are very alike.

OilHorse wrote:

21d6/ray level 6 scorching ray

Sorry, I have no idea where this is coming from. It would be 21d6 divided among 3 rays, not "per ray."

However, another thing that strikes me is that, in my experience, by the time you get 6th level spells, most fights are over after 3 rounds. In that context, 1,000,000d6 per ray isn't unreasonable, because there's no one left to use it on. A combat spell that takes more than a full round to get going isn't going to see much actual use in combat.

The spell effect I mentioned in the op takes 3 rounds to happen.

In that scenario the caster using the 6th level version of Scorching Ray you mentioned would be able to get off 3 of those spells. Each of those spells has 3 rays dealing 7d6. Over the 3 rounds it is like 3 rays dealing 21d6.

Did I do a bit better explaining my process? I know I can be a little muddled when explaining things.

We can look at it like:

Level 6 Scorching Ray over 3 rounds: 63d6 total damage
OP Spell Effect: 60d6 total damage.