Circumventing Shadowbound curse with Lightbringer?


Rules Questions

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Sovereign Court

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Lorewalker wrote:
OilHorse wrote:
If an oracle with the lame curse gets a way to permanently fly is the Oracle breaking some rules?
Simple answer, no.

Then no real difference.

Dark Archive

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Lorewalker wrote:
Halek wrote:
Answer this. Would casting protective penumbra temporarily negate the curse?

No more than never getting into combat negates the tongues curse.

But that, like the horse, is an external thing that prevents the curse from harming your activities. Not an internal ability negating the curse. Negation being preventing the curse from harming you when it should be and it is not the same as overcoming the harm from the curse.

Protective Penumbra would prevent the curses condition for harm being met. But it doesn't allow you to ignore the harm when it should be affecting you. Which is what Lightbringer would do.

Lightbringer is a racial trait an effect of being his race. Which can be changed. It is temporary just like protective penumbra. You mentioned internal versus external. Define that in game terms and give a way to determine the difference.

Scarab Sages

Halek wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Halek wrote:
Answer this. Would casting protective penumbra temporarily negate the curse?

No more than never getting into combat negates the tongues curse.

But that, like the horse, is an external thing that prevents the curse from harming your activities. Not an internal ability negating the curse. Negation being preventing the curse from harming you when it should be and it is not the same as overcoming the harm from the curse.

Protective Penumbra would prevent the curses condition for harm being met. But it doesn't allow you to ignore the harm when it should be affecting you. Which is what Lightbringer would do.

Lightbringer is a racial trait an effect of being his race. Which can be changed. It is temporary just like protective penumbra. You mentioned internal versus external. Define that in game terms and give a way to determine the difference.

Internal, part of the character.

External, affecting the character but not part of the character.

Internal; feat, race, trait, class feature.
External; spell, mount, aid from another character.

It is an undefined and poorly implemented classification in Pathfinder but it is used. The nomenclature is mine, though. For instance, the familiar uses this concept. Their HD counts as their master's for spell effects affecting(external) them but not for their special abilities(internal).

Your race is not temporary. It is a permanent part of your character. It can be changed due to certain effects... but that isn't what makes something temporary in Pathfinder. Just as there is a difference between a permanent enhancement bonus to an ability score and a temporary one... the limiter is a 24 hour period. But basically, permanent typically means that there is no duration and that it will continue to be as it is until something forcibly changes it.

Honestly, if you were to use your logic of what makes temporary and permanent... nothing is permanent in this game. As anything can be changed.

Dark Archive

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See spells are a class feature as are some mounts. You can even get another character from feats.

So how do you draw the line?

Under your system you can have an effect be both internal and external at the same time. Which is useless. So how do you define it?

Scarab Sages

Halek wrote:

See spells are a class feature as are some mounts. You can even get another character from feats.

So how do you draw the line?

Under your system you can have an effect be both internal and external at the same time. Which is useless. So how do you define it?

Please don't strawman me. It is fairly annoying to rebut that which should not need rebutting.

A spell is not a class feature. The ability to cast spells is. But the spell itself is a separate entity.

Same with, say, an animal companion or a cohort. They are granted by a feat or class feature... but they are not themselves your PC or part of them intrinsically. If you kill one the PC does not also die. Nor are they affected by the same effects. They are external to the PC, though they belong to the PC. Just as a sword is a separate entity from your PC but a trait can grant a sword to a PC. The trait(grantor) is internal but the sword(granted) is external to the PC(grantee).


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Lorewalker wrote:
Halek wrote:
Answer this. Would casting protective penumbra temporarily negate the curse?

No more than never getting into combat negates the tongues curse.

But that, like the horse, is an external thing that prevents the curse from harming your activities. Not an internal ability negating the curse. Negation being preventing the curse from harming you when it should be and it is not the same as overcoming the harm from the curse.

Protective Penumbra would prevent the curses condition for harm being met. But it doesn't allow you to ignore the harm when it should be affecting you. Which is what Lightbringer would do.

Your argument makes no sense. Protective Penumbra negates the effects of the curse in question in the same way that Lightbringer negates the effects, in that the penalties associated with the curse no longer apply to the character who has said curse, because the two effects in question negate the penalty the curse afflicts.

So, because they negate the curse in the same exact way, why would you allow one subject to work, and the other not?

Is it because one is permanent versus temporary? The Curse rules make no such distinction of permanent solutions or temporary solutions to a penalty, because you aren't removing the curse, which cannot be done without the help of a deity, you're negating the penalties associated with the curse, something that the Curse rules or deific intervention don't give two damns about. You're adding a restriction that, while the context of the rules maybe should care, the actual rules text doesn't.

Is it because one is a racial trait and the other is a spell? Again, Curse rules don't care, because the rules only state for removing a curse, does the help of a deity matter. Anything else, such as negating, or even amplifying said curse? Doesn't require a deity to do. Which means this sort of argument won't work in terms of negating penalties associated with a curse.

Is it because you hate the player trying to cheese the system? While an understandable concern, it's not one vocalized in the rules except for the case of removing it. As a GM, you can say that you won't allow him to be a munchkin and circumvent curse penalties, and that if he doesn't like it, he can walk, but that's not so much an iron-clad rule than it is a failsafe for when the rules aren't absolutely clear.

And in this case it is clear; effects which negate (but do not remove) a curse's penalties will apply normally, regardless of whatever source they come from. It is only when attempting to actually remove that curse from the character, does the type of solution (i.e. deity only) make a difference.

Scarab Sages

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Halek wrote:
Answer this. Would casting protective penumbra temporarily negate the curse?

No more than never getting into combat negates the tongues curse.

But that, like the horse, is an external thing that prevents the curse from harming your activities. Not an internal ability negating the curse. Negation being preventing the curse from harming you when it should be and it is not the same as overcoming the harm from the curse.

Protective Penumbra would prevent the curses condition for harm being met. But it doesn't allow you to ignore the harm when it should be affecting you. Which is what Lightbringer would do.

Your argument makes no sense. Protective Penumbra negates the effects of the curse in question in the same way that Lightbringer negates the effects, in that the penalties associated with the curse no longer apply to the character who has said curse, because the two effects in question negate the penalty the curse afflicts.

So, because they negate the curse in the same exact way, why would you allow one subject to work, and the other not?

Is it because one is permanent versus temporary? The Curse rules make no such distinction of permanent solutions or temporary solutions to a penalty, because you aren't removing the curse, which cannot be done without the help of a deity, you're negating the penalties associated with the curse, something that the Curse rules or deific intervention don't give two damns about. You're adding a restriction that, while the context of the rules maybe should care, the actual rules text doesn't.

Is it because one is a racial trait and the other is a spell? Again, Curse rules don't care, because the rules only state for removing a curse, does the help of a deity matter. Anything else, such as negating, or even amplifying said curse? Doesn't require a deity to do. Which means this sort of argument won't work in terms of negating penalties associated with a curse.

Is it because you hate the player trying...

This is not correct. Protective Penumbra keeps the character in shadow. This prevents the condition for the penalty, IE being in bright light, from occurring. "This spell keeps the target slightly in shadow."

This is different from an ability that causes a character to actually be immune to the curse.

"I'm in enough shadow that there isn't enough bright light to trigger my curse's condition and thus affect me" and "I can be in bright light because I have an ability which prevents my curse from penalizing me even when its condition is met" are not the same things. At all. They only end up with the same outcome, you not taking penalties. How this is achieved should be important.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I can't say I see the importance.


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Proposed fix:

Oracle's Curse penalties bypass all immunities, including those from other Oracle's Curses, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description(*).

(*)Seems like this should also work for Kineticist's Burn and other similar things.

Oracle's Curse benefits accrue even if the Oracle is normally immune to them, unless said immunity is from another Oracle's Curse, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description.


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Is it okay for a lame metal oracle to take dance of blades?

What about a Dhampir oracle having the vampire or lich corruption curses?

Or a bones oracle having the vampire or lich corruption curses, despite the 'drawback' being one of their revelations?

Can a Blackened Hands oracle take Improved Unarmed Strike?

Can a wasting oracle have ranks in charisma-based skills to make a -2/-4 negligible?

Can a Strix Oracle be lame?

Can a deaf Oracle read lips? Or learn telepathic bond?

Each of these limit or overcome the drawback of the curse. Most of them can be take away. Race can change through reincarnation. Skill ranks can be blocked by spells. Skill use can be blocked by circumstance (visibility, time constraints, susceptibilith, etc). Positive/Negative energy affinities can't easily be changed, but then, aren't really drawbacks either, especially when you choose the healing spells you need

If the issue is mechanical gain, remember that most curses don't actually give much or take much away. The ones that do tend too be harder to live with or get around. If the issue is the flavor, ask the player to justify the lack of a drawback thematically. It really doesn't seem like a problem.


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Well, a Kineticist can't play with Burn if they are immune to fatigue.
Rage has been brought up already.
Pathfinder doesn't like giving you palliatives for something that doesn't hurt you.
I would rule, a at the very least, the oracle wouldn't get any of the positives from a curse he effectively negated, since he never had to actually learn to live with the curse, so never got a chance to learn its lessons.

Since this is a hopelessly grey area, pffft.
I am going to give a thematic answer.
You get a curse to teach you a lesson in living with it, and working past it. God's aren't stupid, they aren't going to try to give you a null valued lesson. Your character did not cleverly pick a curse he was immune to. It is only a Choice at the Player level. If your GM is OK with it, fine, but I can tell you I would bounce it at my table, because it has bad thematics, even if it is rules clever.

Oh, and since nearly every way of getting permanent flight bases flight speed it on your base move the Lame curse does roll forward. Now riding a horse is not negating the curse, it is getting around it when situations are appropriate. You are learning that you need help from the horse to get around with some freedom. Of course, if you live on horseback until you get your flying carpet, the lessons the curse will teach you will be pretty useless to you as well.

More specifically, the Shadowbound curse that makes you light sensitive really is saying you have become, at least in part, a creature of the darkness, which rather seems antithetical to the Lightbringer gift.

Grand Lodge

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Gods don't generally make Oracles, so I don't know why people keep bringing that up.


Rules never said gods didn't have a hand in making the Oracle, just says they don't expect any obedience. Oracles are the gods fire and forget weapons in wargame parlance. If they didn't have a hand in it, why are there gods associated with each mystery. Just because you may never know which divinity or divinities set a particular oracle on his path, does not mean that they aren't there.

If you play it different at your table, it's your preference, but that certainly doesn't mean your preference is any more than that with regards to someone else's table.

Grand Lodge

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Considering oracles aren't required to choose deities in Golarion, I find it not just my preference.


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Daw wrote:

Well, a Kineticist can't play with Burn if they are immune to fatigue.

Rage has been brought up already.
Pathfinder doesn't like giving you palliatives for something that doesn't hurt you.
I would rule, a at the very least, the oracle wouldn't get any of the positives from a curse he effectively negated, since he never had to actually learn to live with the curse, so never got a chance to learn its lessons.

Since this is a hopelessly grey area, pffft.
I am going to give a thematic answer.
You get a curse to teach you a lesson in living with it, and working past it. God's aren't stupid, they aren't going to try to give you a null valued lesson. Your character did not cleverly pick a curse he was immune to. It is only a Choice at the Player level. If your GM is OK with it, fine, but I can tell you I would bounce it at my table, because it has bad thematics, even if it is rules clever.

No the gods aren't stupid. However, they often have mysterious motives. Perhaps a god/goddess wants to grant powers to someone who is not faithful to them, but penalizing them for such power would render them obsolete. Thus the gods/goddess bestows the gift of the oracles to his/her champion with the least damaging of disabilities, rather than channel them towards priesthood. Or perhaps the deity hasn't the time to spare showing the pious the path to power through priesthood and prayer, but needs a potent pawn and does not wish to punish a patient patron, so opts for an impotent penalty in exchange for power. Its not impossible to come up with flavor-based reasons for your curse to not hinder. Of course, I agree that there should be some reason behind the curse granted unto the character not affecting them, beyond "the rules say so", but at the same time it wouldn't be too hard a sell.
Quote:

Oh, and since nearly every way of getting permanent flight bases flight speed it on your base move the Lame curse does roll forward. Now riding a horse is not negating the curse, it is getting around it when situations are appropriate. You are learning that you need help from the horse to get around with some freedom. Of course, if you live on horseback until you get your flying carpet, the lessons the curse will teach you will be pretty useless to you as well.

...

Just a note, lame only affects land speed. Not other speeds.
Lame Curse wrote:
One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet...

. In addition, some oracles get access to overland flight, which can be effectively permanent but is not a base speed as it still must be activated.


Paradozen wrote:
Is it okay for a lame metal oracle to take dance of blades?

Should be no problem -- a Lame Oraclewith Dance of Blades is still 10' slower than a non-Lame Oracle with Dance of Blates. I would have said the same thing for Cinder Dance (Flame Mystery), except that this has specific text in it forbidding that combination.

Paradozen wrote:
What about a Dhampir oracle having the vampire or lich corruption curses?

Dhampirs who do not trade out Negative Energy Affinity mask these Curses, but do not get rid of them. Such a Dhampir who somehow gets treatment for Negative Energy Affinity (caused by their heritage) will unmask this part of the Curse.

Paradozen wrote:
Or a bones oracle having the vampire or lich corruption curses, despite the 'drawback' being one of their revelations?

Mostly a waste of a Revelation, although the Channel Resistances should stack.

Paradozen wrote:
Can a Blackened Hands oracle take Improved Unarmed Strike?

This has already come up in these Messageboards in several threads: Yes. They can also use Natural Weapons without penalty. (Note to somebody above: An Oracle with the Blackened Curse [i]can[i/] use a two-handed weapon -- it just isn't a good idea, because they take a -4 penalty when doing so, same as for any other manufactured weapon.

Paradozen wrote:
Can a wasting oracle have ranks in charisma-based skills to make a -2/-4 negligible?

They can. They will still have a -4 penalty to these skills relative to an Oracle with the same Charisma and rank investment but who does not have the Wasting Curse.

Paradozen wrote:
Can a Strix Oracle be lame?

Yes. This is a bit of a cheese, since the Lame Curse explicitly specifies that it only reduces base land speed, so anyone who has a non-land base movement speed is explicitly exempt from its penalty as long as they can avoid using their land speed.

Paradozen wrote:

Can a deaf Oracle read lips? Or learn telepathic bond?

{. . .}

Read Lips: Yes, this will work the same as for anyone else who is deaf, with the same investment in Linguistics and Perception (the latter being required for distances greater than 10' and/or poor visibility).

Telepathic Bond: Not on the Oracle's spell list. If you can somehow get it on your spell list, it will work. (Example that comes to mind: Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle snags Sorcerer/Wizard spells as replacements for all Mystery spells, while making them 1 level higher, so could choose this in place of the Mystery spell gained at 12th level.)


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Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

By RAW, it only says that the curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity. Suppressing the effects of something is not removing or dispelling it (see also: protection from evil vs possession effects -- when you make your save due to the spell, it just suppresses the effect for the duration, meaning you no longer suffer from it, however the effect is still in effect).

Taking lightbringer does not remove or dispel the curse, it just makes you immune to the drawbacks. The curse is still in place, but it does not do anything to you. I view this in the same vein as suppressing the effect without removing it. As such, this would be allowed. Furthermore, there is no wording that an oracle must have a drawback from the curse in order to gain the benefits of the other class features.

You can certainly argue that the intent of the oracle is so that the curse cannot be suppressed, but the rules do not say that. You are free to rule as such at your own tables (and I would probably rule that way as well should it come up for me), but in this case I think the rules do not support this position.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Proposed fix:

Oracle's Curse penalties bypass all immunities, including those from other Oracle's Curses, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description(*).

(*)Seems like this should also work for Kineticist's Burn and other similar things.

Oracle's Curse benefits accrue even if the Oracle is normally immune to them, unless said immunity is from another Oracle's Curse, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description.

the penalties are meant to be overcome if you put the resources towards overcoming them though which is what some how finding immunity to the effect is

i do wish paizo would come out with an oracle archetype that replaces the curse class feature for those who just don't want to deal with it


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Considering oracles aren't required to choose deities in Golarion, I find it not just my preference.

Except that the rules specifically say it is just your preference, as follows, but feel free to circle til your wall regens.

Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 42
Although the gods work through many agents, perhaps none is more mysterious than the oracle. These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand. Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. While some see the powers of the oracle as a gift, others view them as a curse, changing the life of the chosen in unforeseen ways.

NN anyway.

Grand Lodge

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I have no idea what you mean by that.

Sovereign Court

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The simple answer, which has been stated already, is that there is no wording within Oracle Curses that says You cannot overcome the penalties.

I am not talking about removing the effect, just overcoming it, and that is all that is happening.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Proposed fix:

Oracle's Curse penalties bypass all immunities, including those from other Oracle's Curses, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description(*).

(*)Seems like this should also work for Kineticist's Burn and other similar things.

Oracle's Curse benefits accrue even if the Oracle is normally immune to them, unless said immunity is from another Oracle's Curse, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description.

So Oracle's Burden bypasses ALL immunities? Sweet. Now Consumed forces constructs to take nonlethal damage while Vampirism lets them be healed as an undead, Behemoths can be sickened, undead can take con damage, oozes can be dazzled... you've made a REALLY nice 2nd level spell. ;P

As you can see, making it "bypass all immunities" turns two curses into pure boons, allowing constructs to be healed as undead. Heck, that alone makes it worth it to take a level of oracle for any Wyrwood so they have MUCh easier access to healing.


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^I should have specified effect on the Oracle. Explicitly make these changes not transfer over to other creatures by way of spells that inflict the Oracle's Curse on another creature, unless they are magic so powerful as to be capable of making another creature into an Oracle (presumably this would be significantly beyond 9th level). Although come to think of it, some spell (Greater Oracle's Burden?) in between such Deity-only magic and Oracle's Burden could fit in substantially below 9th level (tentatively level 6?), that would indeed bypass immunities temporarily in that way . . . .


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

^I should have specified effect on the Oracle. Explicitly make these changes not transfer over to other creatures by way of spells that inflict the Oracle's Curse on another creature, unless they are magic so powerful as to be capable of making another creature into an Oracle (presumably this would be significantly beyond 9th level). Although come to think of it, some spell (Greater Oracle's Burden?) in between such Deity-only magic and Oracle's Burden could fit in substantially below 9th level, that would indeed bypass immunities temporarily in that way . . . .

That makes no sense... "The target creature suffers all the hindrances and none of the benefits of your oracle’s curse class feature." If it's hindrances ignore immunities and the target "suffers ALL hindrances" then ignoring immunities would be part of "all". All the curse says it that it can't be cured: nothing about giving it to others. As such it matters not HOW powerful the curse it: you aren't trying to get rid of it and it's only god strength for that.

Also, making it "bypass all immunities" turns two curses into pure boons, allowing constructs to be healed as undead. Heck, that alone makes it worth it to take a level of oracle for any Wyrwood so they have MUCH easier access to healing.


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^Individual problematic Oracle's Curses are why I left a clause "unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description" in the proposed fixes, in case individual Oracle's Curses need to be tweaked differently.

Although come to think of it, it would be pretty cool to have a villain Wyrwood Oracle of Bones that appears semi-Undead (a blend of wood and bone), and Channels Negative Energy to heal itself as well as its minions . . . except that current Oracle Mysteries/Revelations don't give access to Channel Negative Energy for purposes other than powering Command Undead.


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Lorewalker wrote:

This is not correct. Protective Penumbra keeps the character in shadow. This prevents the condition for the penalty, IE being in bright light, from occurring. "This spell keeps the target slightly in shadow."

This is different from an ability that causes a character to actually be immune to the curse.

"I'm in enough shadow that there isn't enough bright light to trigger my curse's condition and thus affect me" and "I can be in bright light because I have an ability which prevents my curse from penalizing me even when its condition is met" are not the same things. At all. They only end up with the same outcome, you not taking penalties. How this is achieved should be important.

Nice try with the flavor text, but I could be in an area of a Daylight spell, something which I could argue that, based on the flavor text, Protective Penumbra doesn't apply to due to the rule of Darkness and Light spells countering each other. So really, the only thing the spell really does at that point is provide the ignorance of penalties.

Whereas Lightbringer provides immunity, which is actually even better for removing penalties, because it treats it though as if you're never affected by it.

And as I've pointed out, the rules don't care about any of this except in the cases of removing the curse, which cannot be done without deific interference. Anything else? Is just wishful thinking on your part, and has zero basis in the RAW.

Scarab Sages

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Proposed fix:

Oracle's Curse penalties bypass all immunities, including those from other Oracle's Curses, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description(*).

(*)Seems like this should also work for Kineticist's Burn and other similar things.

Oracle's Curse benefits accrue even if the Oracle is normally immune to them, unless said immunity is from another Oracle's Curse, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description.

Bad idea. As mentioned by others, the Curse can be Shared via Oracle specific spells. I also don't think the intention of the Curse is to be unable to circumvent it.

I suppose you think the Lame curse should also prevent characters from gaining speed from other sources, or from riding/being carried?

And regarding the Kineticist's Burn, it is entirely different in function and intention. The Kineticist doesn't have to use burn at all. It is entirely optional and doesn't affect normal nonlethal damage.

Back to Lightbringer, that isn't a free ability. That Elf is burning their Elven Immunities and Elven Magic to gain what is basically 1 extra 0-level Orision and immunity to SOME blindness and dazzle effects.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
^Individual problematic Oracle's Curses are why I left a clause "unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description" in the proposed fixes, in case individual Oracle's Curses need to be tweaked differently.

But now you aren't just modifying the basic feature but also altering the curses on an individual basis. It's moving further from a simple fix by the post. I don't know why the 'fix' isn't enforcing the existing rules instead of inventing more. It seems like a fix is a solution in search of a problem as I have yet to see a problematic example of a bypassed curse

Burn: The class can get by without using/taking burn, doesn't ignore immunities and can take archetypes without it or modifying it. It's a very different animal from Curse. Though I'd agree if they wanted restrictions on Curses they'd need to add a 'fix' to it to make that clear like they did with bypassing/negating nonlethal burn damage.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Although come to think of it, it would be pretty cool to have a villain Wyrwood Oracle of Bones that appears semi-Undead (a blend of wood and bone), and Channels Negative Energy to heal itself as well as its minions . . . except that current Oracle Mysteries/Revelations don't give access to Channel Negative Energy for purposes other than powering Command Undead.

Oh, it'd be awesome, though I'd take a single level dip in oracle and fill the other levels with a class that can actually Channel Negative Energy and uses a stat the race doesn't take a minus in. ;)

Dark Archive

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Lorewalker wrote:
Halek wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Halek wrote:
Answer this. Would casting protective penumbra temporarily negate the curse?

No more than never getting into combat negates the tongues curse.

But that, like the horse, is an external thing that prevents the curse from harming your activities. Not an internal ability negating the curse. Negation being preventing the curse from harming you when it should be and it is not the same as overcoming the harm from the curse.

Protective Penumbra would prevent the curses condition for harm being met. But it doesn't allow you to ignore the harm when it should be affecting you. Which is what Lightbringer would do.

Lightbringer is a racial trait an effect of being his race. Which can be changed. It is temporary just like protective penumbra. You mentioned internal versus external. Define that in game terms and give a way to determine the difference.

Internal, part of the character.

External, affecting the character but not part of the character.

Internal; feat, race, trait, class feature.
External; spell, mount, aid from another character.

It is an undefined and poorly implemented classification in Pathfinder but it is used. The nomenclature is mine, though. For instance, the familiar uses this concept. Their HD counts as their master's for spell effects affecting(external) them but not for their special abilities(internal).

Your race is not temporary. It is a permanent part of your character. It can be changed due to certain effects... but that isn't what makes something temporary in Pathfinder. Just as there is a difference between a permanent enhancement bonus to an ability score and a temporary one... the limiter is a 24 hour period. But basically, permanent typically means that there is no duration and that it will continue to be as it is until something forcibly changes it.

Honestly, if you were to use your logic of what makes temporary and permanent... nothing is permanent in this game. As anything can be changed.

Can a lame oracle take fleet twice? It negates the curse same as lightbringer. It is according to your classication an internal ability. The oracle had to devote resources to it same as getting lightbringer. So can a lame oracle take fleet twice?


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Halek wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Halek wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Halek wrote:
Answer this. Would casting protective penumbra temporarily negate the curse?

No more than never getting into combat negates the tongues curse.

But that, like the horse, is an external thing that prevents the curse from harming your activities. Not an internal ability negating the curse. Negation being preventing the curse from harming you when it should be and it is not the same as overcoming the harm from the curse.

Protective Penumbra would prevent the curses condition for harm being met. But it doesn't allow you to ignore the harm when it should be affecting you. Which is what Lightbringer would do.

Lightbringer is a racial trait an effect of being his race. Which can be changed. It is temporary just like protective penumbra. You mentioned internal versus external. Define that in game terms and give a way to determine the difference.

Internal, part of the character.

External, affecting the character but not part of the character.

Internal; feat, race, trait, class feature.
External; spell, mount, aid from another character.

It is an undefined and poorly implemented classification in Pathfinder but it is used. The nomenclature is mine, though. For instance, the familiar uses this concept. Their HD counts as their master's for spell effects affecting(external) them but not for their special abilities(internal).

Your race is not temporary. It is a permanent part of your character. It can be changed due to certain effects... but that isn't what makes something temporary in Pathfinder. Just as there is a difference between a permanent enhancement bonus to an ability score and a temporary one... the limiter is a 24 hour period. But basically, permanent typically means that there is no duration and that it will continue to be as it is until something forcibly changes it.

Honestly, if you were to use your logic of what makes temporary and permanent... nothing is permanent in this game.

...

A better one is a tiefling using the chart to replace it's SLA that gets the +5' move and takes the deep one curse that gives a -5' move. All 1st level and internal. And feats and race traits can be retrained so I agree with you that not much is permanent.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Is it okay for a lame metal oracle to take dance of blades?

Should be no problem -- a Lame Oraclewith Dance of Blades is still 10' slower than a non-Lame Oracle with Dance of Blates. I would have said the same thing for Cinder Dance (Flame Mystery), except that this has specific text in it forbidding that combination.

Paradozen wrote:
What about a Dhampir oracle having the vampire or lich corruption curses?

Dhampirs who do not trade out Negative Energy Affinity mask these Curses, but do not get rid of them. Such a Dhampir who somehow gets treatment for Negative Energy Affinity (caused by their heritage) will unmask this part of the Curse.

Paradozen wrote:
Or a bones oracle having the vampire or lich corruption curses, despite the 'drawback' being one of their revelations?

Mostly a waste of a Revelation, although the Channel Resistances should stack.

Paradozen wrote:
Can a Blackened Hands oracle take Improved Unarmed Strike?

This has already come up in these Messageboards in several threads: Yes. They can also use Natural Weapons without penalty. (Note to somebody above: An Oracle with the Blackened Curse can[i/] use a two-handed weapon -- it just isn't a good idea, because they take a -4 penalty when doing so, same as for any other manufactured weapon.

Paradozen wrote:
Can a wasting oracle have ranks in charisma-based skills to make a -2/-4 negligible?

They can. They will still have a -4 penalty to these skills relative to an Oracle with the same Charisma and rank investment but who does not have the Wasting Curse.

Paradozen wrote:
Can a Strix Oracle be lame?

Yes. This is a bit of a cheese, since the Lame Curse explicitly specifies that it only reduces base land speed, so anyone who has a non-land base movement speed is explicitly exempt from its penalty as long as they can avoid using their land speed.

Paradozen wrote:
Can a deaf Oracle read lips? Or learn
...

So, its not terribly difficult to overcome the penalties granted by several curses as long as you are willing to invest in options that you (the player who decides character concept and build outside of the game) wouldn't necessarily make otherwise. Such as choosing a race which has racial features which mitigate a curse's penalty but might not be a great race for the oracles. Like a lame strix (charisma penalty, but flight) or an shadowbound lightbringer (con penalty, but no blinding).


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It really does come down to a mechanical versus fluff issue, doesn't it?

On a purely mechanical basis, as my previous post mentioned (and my stance remains even through reading everybody else's opinion), yes, a Lightbringer elf would be immune to the negative effects of their Shadowbound curse. The same situation exists for other examples, such as a lame strix or merfolk or a mute astomoi.

But this mechanical interaction doesn't work from a fluff perspective whatsoever. For such an antithetical combination to come into being, the character must be designed almost entirely at the 'player level', to use a phrase from earlier in the thread. In that the character is a wholly artificial entity created by the player, and have as much backstory and connection to the world around them as any given player character in an MMORPG.

On a fluff perspective, the source of the oracle's powers would be extremely unlikely to instill that character with a curse that they would not be subject to. A shadowbound lightbringer, for example, would not have a single day in his life where he would notice the curse. The counterbalancing curse that the Powers That Be gave the oracle now is exclusively upside.

Maybe the Powers That Be were stupid or didn't foresee it? It's possible. But that's demanding a pretty big lenience from the lore to explain the antithetical curse. It's far more likely to assume they would have picked a curse the character actually noticed?

Besides, isn't "hero learns to overcome their weakness" a better story than "hero has no weakness"?


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Saethori wrote:
But this mechanical interaction doesn't work from a fluff perspective whatsoever.

I don't agree in the least. There are plenty of ways it makes sense to me at least.

Saethori wrote:
For such an antithetical combination to come into being, the character must be designed almost entirely at the 'player level', to use a phrase from earlier in the thread. In that the character is a wholly artificial entity created by the player, and have as much backstory and connection to the world around them as any given player character in an MMORPG.

You're going into it thinking it's 'antithetical' from the start. it doesn't have to be.

Saethori wrote:
On a fluff perspective, the source of the oracle's powers would be extremely unlikely to instill that character with a curse that they would not be subject to. A shadowbound lightbringer, for example, would not have a single day in his life where he would notice the curse. The counterbalancing curse that the Powers That Be gave the oracle now is exclusively upside.

A few examples of why this works:

Player has been reincarnated and didn't start as an elf w/ lightbringer.
The player retrains to better deal with the curse.
The 'power' only gives out one curse no matter the race: lucky you.
The power is chaotic, giving things out on a whim: lucky you.
The power goes easy on you and gives you the easiest to deal with and THEY use a loophole.

As to "would not have a single day in his life where he would notice the curse": Why not deal with it in a fluff way if the issue is fluff? ROLEPLAY the character is being uncomfortable with bright light and staying in the shadows. It can be disadvantage without having mechanical minuses.

Saethori wrote:
Maybe the Powers That Be were stupid or didn't foresee it? It's possible. But that's demanding a pretty big lenience from the lore to explain the antithetical curse. It's far more likely to assume they would have picked a curse the character actually noticed?

You're assuming a human set of values and reasoning: That's a mistake. Why would the Elder Mythos from the unthinkable void between the stars conform to human thinking? Beings of madness, chaos and the void do things that don't make sense. Don't assume every being granting power to the oracles is lawful and has a checklist of acceptable curse and exceptions for immunities.

Saethori wrote:
Besides, isn't "hero learns to overcome their weakness" a better story than "hero has no weakness"?

... I took a level of barbarian and my curse 'weakness' is gone... GREAT story...

As I pointed out above, you can make a story out of the curse even with no mechanical minuses: Enforcing the penalties doesn't somehow improve the roleplaying/story.


let's have a closer inspection at the lightbringer ability and the shadowbound curse. and compare the conditions to a non orcale lightbringer elf and a non lighbringer elf.
lighto - an elf with the lightbringer ability. tht mean he is not dazzaled orblinde by light effects. cast ligth spells in a higher caster level and if his int is 10+ can cast light al lday long (if he is birght enough? ;)
Nighto - a sibling to lighto but cursed by divine intervention to be bound to shadows. he too cast light spells at 1 level higher and if he has 10+ int can cast light all day long. he also shuold have the imunity to light effects that blind\dazzale.
Elfo - a distant cousin of theirs not of the lightbringer heritage.

the three are heaving a meal when lighto's litile sister open the door and light stream in making the room birhgtly lit.
lighto and elfo are NOT blind\dazzaled. since ther eis no light ocndition that make them blind\dazzled. nighto curse kick in and he should be blinded\dazzaled. but his lightbringer heritage say - if the couse of the blindness or dazaled is a light then i negate it.
-now..was the light something that dazzaled nighto ..or was it the curse?

i would argoue that the source is the course..yes i know that it kicks in when Nighto is in bright light. but that bright light is not what dazzle\blinded him, the curse is.(thous he is cursed to be shadowbound -as in stay in the shadows or ur hurt) "You are blinded for 1 round when exposed to normal or bright light and dazzled while in such a lit area" - nothing here say the light IS the source of what blind\dazzle you. think of it as a fairy tail curse like sleeping buety.
she did not fall asleep for pirking her finger. she fell asleep becouse of the curse. untill her 16th birthdday she could play with niddiles as much as she liked. the curse didn't work till then. and it's the curse that effects her. same here, what effect nighto is a curse efect that make him blind\dazzaled when he is exposed to light not the light itself.

back to the story, lighto's sister is a bit of a prankster and she dropes a "Burst of Radiance" spell in hte room (ligth spell that blind \dazzle those who are cought in .got saves). lighto is uneffected (unles he's evil) elfo need to roll a save and see (or not) what happen. nighto is also uneffected since this spcific spell hase no bright light etc' specification.

(also note people mantioned lightbringer would not work if the elf is reincarnated, but you don't need to g oto taht drastic means any polimorph effect would also remove this racial ability)


After more time to think about it, here is a revised proposed fix -- mainly a reversion to my original, but adding a clarification afterward:

Oracle's Curse penalties bypass all immunities, including those from other Oracle's Curses, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description.

Oracle's Curse benefits accrue even if the Oracle is normally immune to them, unless said immunity is from another Oracle's Curse, unless otherwise stated in the Oracle's Curse description.

Both clauses apply separately on the basis of what would be a penalty or benefit for the affected creature, even when referring to the same part of the Oracle's Curse description. For instance, an Oracle's Curse that confers Negative Energy Affinity confers the penalty of being damaged by Positive Energy, which is a penalty that can be temporarily duplicated on another creature by Oracle's Burden but not Oracle's Vessel, and confers the benefit of being healed by Negative Energy, which is a benefit that can be temporarily duplicated on another creature by Oracle's Vessel but not by Oracle's Burden.

* * * * * * * *

Note that bizarrely, Oracle's Burden and Oracle's Vessel are not 2 sides of the same coin -- the former is a Necromancy [Curse] spell, while the latter is a Transmutation spell. In general, Oracle's Burden is not going to affect Constructs, which are immune to Necromancy effects, unless you manage to find some kind of Metamagic that bypasses that immunity (the Construct-oriented equivalent of Threnodic Spell, which enables mind-affecting spells to affect Undead, at the cost of adding 2 levels to the casting level of the spell). So if are Dual-Cursed with the Consumed Curse and the Lich Curse and want to use this to knock out a Construct by Channeling Positive Energy at it, great, you also need to apply a +2 Metamagic Feat (which you will need to have researched, since as far as I know it isn't a standard one) to Oracle's Burden, making it effectively a 4th level spell (but still having a 2nd level Save DC), cast as a Full-Round Action. Suddenly doesn't seem so overpowered . . . .

It would be good to make Oracle's Vessel be also Necromancy, just like Conjuration (Healing) spells should be put back in Necromancy where they belong.

In the case of using Oracle's Burden with the Consumed Curse to allow you to knock out Undead, again, this doesn't seem so overpowered, because except in a narrow range of levels, the Undead that you would want to go to this trouble with are usually going to have pretty good Will Saves (which Oracle's Burden goes up against), so you are probably going to have to make some additional investment (Metamagic or otherwise) just to get it to stick.

* * * * * * * *

With respect to Kineticsts and Burn, applying a fix like what I propose for Oracle's Curse effects would allow Kineticsts that currently can't use Burn because they are immune to non-lethal damage to use Burn after all, allowing it to work for them the same way as non-immune Kineticsts rather than forcing to take some generally bad archetype like Underwhelming Soul.


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zza ni:
Shadowbound: "your eyes are highly sensitive to light" + "You are blinded for 1 round when exposed to normal or bright light and dazzled while in such a lit area."

You sensitive eyes cause you to be blinded/dazzled by light. Seems SUPER disingenuous to try verbal gymnastic to try to twist this into NOT being a "light-based blindness and dazzle effect" that lightbringer makes you immune to.

ALso, if you make ALL the effects of oracle curses curse effects then things like Major Ameliorating, Curse Breaker and Abeyance come into effect. So for the Oracle, you've changed overcoming the curse with a race trait you instead make it a 2nd level spell as Abeyance "suppresses the effects of a single curse on a creature" for 24hr... SO if you wish to make it SUPER SIMPLE for EVERY oracle to ignore their curse, keep insisting that the effects are from a curse and not from the mechanics listed under the individual curse descriptions.

UnArcaneElection:
Constructs: Impossible Bloodline means "Constructs are treated as living creatures" for your spells and you can use mind affecting spells on them. So a single level of sorcerer solves the construct issue for Oracle's Burden: the spell is back to 2nd level though it takes an extra character level to get it because of the level of sorcerer.

Rest: I still don't see the need for new extra rules. I don't see the reason they SHOULD be immune to immunity and then immune to the immunity of their immunity... Then you have to check each curse for a need for "otherwise statement' needs. What is so special about the curses that needs/requires/necessitates all this reworking?

Maybe the best 'fix' is a note that DM's can reject combinations if it bothers their sensibilities.


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The example of this combination of choices and the arguments people are giving for justifying their combination is the reason Pathfinder has reached critical mass and is about to collapse into a black hole. This isn't a role playing game anymore it's a morass.

Luckily the back hole contains Starfinder and a clean new rule set.

I say clean because the argument that a light bringer elf should benefit from a shadowbound curse makes me feel dirty. *shakes head sadly*


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The Sword wrote:

The example of this combination of choices and the arguments people are giving for justifying their combination is the reason Pathfinder has reached critical mass and is about to collapse into a black hole. This isn't a role playing game anymore it's a morass.

Luckily the back hole contains Starfinder and a clean new rule set.

I say clean because the argument that a light bringer elf should benefit from a shadowbound curse makes me feel dirty. *shakes head sadly*

would you also feel that a character who had a curse that lets say for arguments sake did exactly 5 points of fire damage each round in combat and they chose a race with fire resist 5?

Sovereign Court

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The Sword wrote:

The example of this combination of choices and the arguments people are giving for justifying their combination is the reason Pathfinder has reached critical mass and is about to collapse into a black hole. This isn't a role playing game anymore it's a morass.

Luckily the back hole contains Starfinder and a clean new rule set.

I say clean because the argument that a light bringer elf should benefit from a shadowbound curse makes me feel dirty. *shakes head sadly*

Do you think this type of gaming isn't going to exist in Starfinder?

Don't kid yourself, as options are released the same thing is going to happen.


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The Sword wrote:
I say clean because the argument that a light bringer elf should benefit from a shadowbound curse makes me feel dirty. *shakes head sadly*

Oh no, an elf with Long-Limbed taking a deep one curse oracle can move normal speed!!! The universe is DOOMED, DOOMED I say!!! Can you believe SOME PEOPLE actually think that can work. So dirty... And I hear some people actually think immunity means you're immune to things... Heresy!!!

I'm sure the same people that made the rules for this class would never do something similar in Starfinder as I'm totally sure they are starting from scratch and will never make any expansions to it... :P

Scarab Sages

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Tinkering around with this debate, and one thing does pop up. Lightbringer would not stop a Blindness/deafness spell from functioning because the source of the blindness is a curse, not a light effect. So, regarding this oracle's curse, is the curse making the oracle blind or is it the light?

Another worthy consideration regarding oracle curses, is that there are many racial traits which increase the base speed of a creature. For example, there's a halfling racial trait called "Fleet of Foot" which increases the normally 20ft speed of halflings to 30ft, so a Lame fleet of foot halfling would have a speed equal to the normal speed of a halfling. One could argue that this is also an attempt to negate the penalties of the Curse, and both use racial traits to do so.

Scarab Sages

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The Sword wrote:
The example of this combination of choices and the arguments people are giving for justifying their combination is the reason Pathfinder has reached critical mass and is about to collapse into a black hole. This isn't a role playing game anymore it's a morass.

Not a fan of this school of thought. I prefer complex RPGs, and hope pathfinder continues. Dumbing it down seems to be way most games are going, and it's sad.

If you want to play the simple version of pathfinder, try the adventure card game, it's very simple by comparison and they do a good job capturing the feel of a role playing game without the complexity.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Tinkering around with this debate, and one thing does pop up. Lightbringer would not stop a Blindness/deafness spell from functioning because the source of the blindness is a curse, not a light effect. So, regarding this oracle's curse, is the curse making the oracle blind or is it the light?

"your eyes are highly sensitive to light": I'd say there is no question on this. It's light and not the curse as all it does is give you sensitive eyes. The rest is a result of the eyes. It is very hard to do the mental gymnastics to come to a result of the blindness/dazzled NOT coming from light. It's like saying the vampire template destroys a vampire out during the day and not the sun so Protective Penumbra doesn't work...

And as I pointed out above, if you force it into a curse effect instead of the written penalties, it means Abeyance fixes it for 24 hr and it's a 2nd level spell. No race traits needed just waking up every day and casting a spell...


graystone wrote:

{. . .}

UnArcaneElection:
Constructs: Impossible Bloodline means "Constructs are treated as living creatures" for your spells and you can use mind affecting spells on them. So a single level of sorcerer solves the construct issue for Oracle's Burden: the spell is back to 2nd level though it takes an extra character level to get it because of the level of sorcerer.

Rest: I still don't see the need for new extra rules. I don't see the reason they SHOULD be immune to immunity and then immune to the immunity of their immunity... Then you have to check each curse for a need for "otherwise statement' needs. What is so special about the curses that needs/requires/necessitates all this reworking?

Maybe the best 'fix' is a note that DM's can reject combinations if it bothers their sensibilities.

Well, let's run down the list of Oracle's Curses (the following ignores anything that doesn't kick in at 1st level except as noted, and does not assume any text specific to an Oracle's Curse except as noted):

Aboleth (Curse of Corruption): You take a –2 penalty on saving throws against mind-affecting effects and add charm person and hypnotism to your list of 1st-level oracle spells known. You gain a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Intimidate checks. Diplomacy is not a class skill for you, but Bluff or Intimidate (choose one) is. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses. Might have an issue of an Undead gets hold of the Aboleth Curse, although ways around this exist (Threnodic Spell, for instance). Either way, has weird effect if applied to another creature with Oracle's Burden and/or Oracle's Vessel -- target's class skills may change (for better and/or worse), so this may need special text in the Oracle's Curse description.

Accursed (Curse of Corruption): You are cursed with misfortune and sorrow, and you cannot gain benefit from morale bonuses. However, you gain a +4 bonus to all saving throws against curse effects. Existing rules: What happens if you are Dual-Cursed and your other Curse gives a Morale Bonus? Proposed change: Answers that question with the more unfavorable of 2 possible answers.

Blackened: You take a –4 penalty on weapon attack rolls, but you add burning hands to your list of spells known. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses.

Clouded Vision: You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision. Existing rules or proposed change: Should be no issue either way. Could become an issue in the future if some other Oracle's Curse alters vision range and/or adds Darkvision.

Cold-Blooded Lizardfolk: Your blood turns sluggish without sufficient heat, and you must seek warmth and shelter earlier than most. This oracle curse is common among lizardfolk and other oracles with the reptilian subtype. You take a –4 penalty on saves against cold spells and effects, and whenever you fail such a saving throw, you are staggered for 1 round. You can survive without food four times longer than a typical creature of your species before you begin to starve. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses. Might be an issue if somebody who is Cold-Immune gets hold of this Oracle's Curse.

Consumed: Whenever you take lethal hit point damage, you take an additional number of points of nonlethal damage equal to 1/2 the lethal damage you took. You automatically stabilize when brought below 0 hit points. Existing rules: You can get off the hook for the penalty by being a Construct or Undead (or somehow otherwise being immune to non-lethal damage); you can't apply the penalties of this Oracle's Curse to Undead or Constructs. Proposed change: Being immune to non-lethal damage (by creature type or otherwise) doesn't get you off the hook for the penalties of this Oracle's Curse. You can apply this Oracle's Curse to Construct targets if you have something like the Impossible Bloodline, but that is also significant investment. You can apply this Oracle's Curse to Undead targets, but you will need some investment to make it likely to stick.

Covetous: You must wear fine non-magical clothing and jewelry worth at least 50 gp + 100 gp per character level you have beyond 1st. If you do not have sufficient wealth to purchase this additional equipment, you feel a strong desire (but are not compelled) to sell existing items or steal from others to obtain it. You are sickened whenever you do not meet this requirement; you are also sickened for 24 hours after anything worth 25 gp * your character level or more is taken from you against your will. Use Magic Device becomes a class skill for you. Existing rules: You can get off the hook for the penalty with the Plagued Curse or enough levels of the Wasting Curse. Proposed change: You still suffer the penalty even if you have something like the Plagued or Wasting Curse. Either way, has weird effect if applied to another creature with Oracle's Vessel -- target's class skills may increase in variety, so this may need special text in the Oracle's Curse description.

Deaf: You cannot hear and suffer all of the usual penalties for being deafened. You cast all of your spells as if they were modified by the Silent Spell feat. This does not increase their level or casting time. Existing rules or proposed change: Should be no issue either way.

Deep One (Curse of Corruption): You reduce your base land speed by 5 feet. You gain a swim speed equal to your land speed, and if you already have a swim speed, you increase it by 10 feet. Existing rules or proposed change: Should be no issue either way, except that somebody who has this Oracle's Curse and a high base land speed and a slow base swim speed could wind up with a slower final swim speed than if they had no base swim speed at all (effects which either add an ability or add to an existing ability need better wording to avoid corner cases like this).

Demonic (Curse of Corruption): You cannot cast spells with the good or lawful descriptors, nor can you summon good or lawful creatures. Good and lawful creatures instinctively distrust you, and you take a –4 penalty on all Diplomacy checks against such creatures. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses.

Ghoul (Curse of Corruption): You can only go without food for 12 hours before you begin to starve, and when you do starve, the DC of the Constitution check to avoid taking damage increases by 5. If you feed on fresh, raw flesh (no older than 1 hour) from a creature of your own race, you gain a +1 morale bonus on all saving throws for 24 hours. Existing rules: You can get off the hook for the penalty by being a Construct or Undead (or somehow otherwise being immune to the need to eat) -- being immune to this for being Undead seems counterintuitive, although it could have thematic value. You can't apply the penalty to a Construct (or Android) or Undead by way of Oracle's Burden, and you can't apply the bonus to either of these by way of Oracle's Vessel (which again, for Undead, seems counterintuitive). Proposed change: You still suffer the penalty for this Oracle's Curse even if you are a Construct or Undead, but can also gain the benefits, and likewise for targets of Oracle's Burden or Oracle's Vessel.

Haunted: Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction. Add mage hand and ghost sound to your list of spells known. Existing rules or proposed change: Should be no issue either way. Could become an issue in the future if some other Oracle's Curse also affects the action economy of item retrieval.

Hellbound (Curse of Corruption): You cannot cast spells with the good or chaotic descriptors, and you can’t summon good or chaotic creatures. Good and chaotic creatures instinctively distrust you, and you take a –4 penalty on all Diplomacy checks against such creatures. You gain a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Intimidate checks. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses.

Hive (Curse of Corruption): You take a –4 penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and Ride checks. Once per day as a standard action, you can cough up an ovoid, leathery sphere that can be hurled as a flask of acid, though it becomes inert after 24 hours. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses.

Hunger: Ravenous hunger wracks your body in stressful situations. You gain none of the benefits from spells or magic items that provide nourishment, such as goodberry, heroes’ feast, or a ring of sustenance. You also gain a bite attack that deals an amount of piercing damage appropriate for your size (1d8 for a Large creature, 1d6 for Medium, 1d4 for Small) as a secondary natural attack. You begin each combat with the sickened condition until you deal damage with your bite attack. Existing rules: You can get off the hook for the penalty with the Plagued Curse or enough levels of the Wasting Curse. Proposed change: You still suffer the penalty even if you have something like the Plagued or Wasting Curse. Unsolved complication: What if you have both the Hunger and Wolf-Scarred Face Curses? (These specify bite attacks of different size.)

Infested Goblin: You take a –4 penalty on Diplomacy checks, and when you first meet someone, the person’s initial attitude toward you starts one level lower than normal. Animals shy away from you—you take a –4 penalty on Handle Animal checks. You gain a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves versus poisons from insects, scorpions, and spiders, as well as the distraction ability of swarms of such creatures. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses. Missed opportunity: The penalty to Handle Animal shouldn't apply to Goblin Animals (Goblin Dog comes to mind).

Lame: One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses. Missed opportunity to prevent cheese: Both the flavor text and penalty description should affect your highest speed permanent movement mode (that is, one not conferred by spells) -- otherwise you can partly or even mostly get off the hook for the penalty by having a good movement mode other than a land speed. Unnecessary attempt to prevent cheese: The text for the Cinder Dance Revelation of the Flame Mystery does not allow you to take it if you have this Oracle's Curse -- if that text was not there, the Cinder Dance Revelation would simply offset the penalty of this Oracle's Curse, still leaving you with a slower movement speed than if you had Cinder Dance without it.

Legalistic: Whenever you break your word (either purposefully or unintentionally), you become sickened for 24 hours or until you meet your obligation, whichever comes first. However, once per day, you can make a vow to yourself that grants a +4 morale bonus on any one roll you make while trying to fulfill a promise made to another individual. Existing rules: You can get off the hook for the penalty with the Plagued Curse or enough levels of the Wasting Curse, and you cannot get the benefit if you are a Construct (or Android) or Undead, and you can't apply the bonus to either of these by way of Oracle's Vessel. Proposed change: You still suffer the penalty even if you have something like the Plagued or Wasting Curse, but you also still gain the benefit even if you are a Construct (or Android) or Undead, and can use Oracle's Vessel to apply the benefits to such targets.

Lich (Curse of Corruption): You have (unknowingly) fulfilled most (but not all) of the ritualistic components to achieve lichdom. You have yet to turn into an undead creature, but you are close. You take damage from positive energy and heal from negative energy as if you were undead. Existing rules: This Oracle's Curse has no benefit or penalty to a Construct or Undead (or most Dhampirs) until 5th level, at which only benefits kick in (although the 15th level benefit is only relevant to a Construct who is up against somebody with the Impossible Bloodline). Proposed change: This Oracle's Curse applies its full benefits to Constructs and Undead (although it would be irrelevant to Undead except for some really weird kind of Undead that has Positive Energy Affinity, such as the monster entry for the AD&D 1st Edition Mummy would imply if ported literally over to Pathfinder).

Lycanthropy (Curse of Corruption): The exact animal your body and mind are aligned with can vary, but you should choose an animal that matches your faith thematically. In times of stress or unease, you cannot speak—only growl and snarl like an animal. This ability works similarly to the tongues curse, but whenever you are in combat, you cannot speak at all. This does not interfere with spellcasting but does apply to spells that are language dependent. A character under the effects of speak with animals can understand you, and you can communicate with such characters normally. You can speak with animals when in this condition. Choose one type of animal commonly associated with lycanthropy (such as rats, wolves, or bears); you gain a +4 bonus on Handle Animal checks with these creatures. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses.

Plagued (Curse of Corruption): You take a –1 penalty on all saving throws against disease or infestation effects, but you are immune to the sickened condition. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses (however, see other Oracle's Curses with which this Oracle's Curse has weird interactions).

Possessed (Curse of Corruption): You take a –2 penalty on all concentration checks, and concentrating to maintain a spell duration provokes attacks of opportunity. Whenever a foe attempts to use an effect to possess or dominate you and the effect allows a saving throw to negate, you may roll twice and take the better of the two results. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses. Could become an issue in the future if some other Oracle's Curse also applies reroll effects.

Powerless Prophecy: You are forewarned of danger but can’t act to prevent it. You gain uncanny dodge, as the rogue class feature. However, you can’t take any actions in a surprise round, including free actions, except for flash of insight (see Revelations below). In the absence of a surprise round, you are staggered for the entire first round of combat. Existing rules or proposed change: Should be no issue either way. Could become an issue in the future if some other Oracle's Curse alters action economy.

Promethean (Curse of Corruption): You take 1 point of Constitution damage each day, but you also ignore the first point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution damage you take for the remainder of that day.. Existing rules: You can get off the hook for the penalty by being a Construct or Undead (or somehow otherwise being immune to Ability Damage); you can't apply the penalties of this Oracle's Curse to Undead or Constructs. Proposed change: Being immune to Ability Damage (by creature type or otherwise) doesn't get you off the hook for the penalties of this Oracle's Curse, but specific text is required to translate the Constitution Damage into something that actually penalizes Constructs and Undead, unless creature types and Ability Scores are also reformed to apply uniformly to all creatures (which should be done anyway, but is beyond the scope of the proposed changes to Oracle's Curses). Suggested temporary Promethean Curse specific fix: If you do not have a Constitution score, you instead take 1/2 hit point of damage for every hit dice that you have, rounded up. Could have an issue in the future if another Oracle's Curse also causes and/or alters Ability Damage (as the Site-Bound Curse does).

Shadowbound (Curse of Corruption): You are blinded for 1 round when exposed to normal or bright light and dazzled while in such a lit area. You gain darkvision to a range of 30 feet. Existing rules: You can get off the hook for the penalties by having a racial trait such as Lightbringer (Elf) that makes you immune to being blinded, or by being already blind (usually with Blindsight or something similar, such for most Oozes). Proposed change: You cannot get off the hook for the penalties in these ways; if you use Blindsight instead of sight, conditions which would normally Blind and then Dazzle a creature with these penalties act on your Blindsight instead. This may require specific text for clarification.

Site-Bound: You bond with a particular 10-foot square, and must remain within 1,500 feet of that site or immediately become sickened. You must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save each minute you spend outside of the boundary or become nauseated. For every hour spent outside of the boundary, you also take 1d4 points of Constitution damage (no save). When within range of your bonded site, you gain a +1 bonus to your caster level when casting oracle spells. Existing rules: You can get off the hook for the Constitution Damage part of the penalty by being a Construct or Undead (or somehow otherwise being immune to Ability Damage); you can't apply this part of the penalty of this Oracle's Curse to Undead or Constructs; the Promethean Curse can slightly lessen the Constitution Damage part of the penalty; you can get off the hook for the Sickened part of this Oracle's Curse by having the Plagued Curse or enough levels of the Wasting Curse, and you can get off the hook for the Nauseated part of this Oracle's Curse by having enough additional levels of the Wasting Curse. Proposed change: See effects on Promethean Curse (because currently Constructs and Undead have no Constitution score), and the Promethean Curse does not lessen the Constitution Damage applied by the Site-Bound Curse, but remains available to mitigate other sources of Constitution Damage; you cannot get off the hook for this Oracle's Curse by having the Plagued or Wasting Curse. Optional specific text: Allow the Promethean Curse benefit to offset the Constitution Damage penalty of the Site-Bound Curse after all, since this is only an offset and not a complete nullification.

Tongues: Whenever you are in combat, you can only speak and understand the selected language. This does not interfere with spellcasting, but it does apply to spells that are language dependent. You gain the selected language as a bonus language. Existing rules or proposed change: Should be no issue either way. Could become an issue in the future if some other Oracle's Curse alters your ability to speak, although the way the Lycanthropy Curse (the only current example) works, it seems like the two Curses simply shoot each other's benefits in the foot.

Vampirism (Curse of Corruption): You take damage from positive energy and heal from negative energy as if you were undead. See Lich Curse above. If you have are Dual-Cursed with both of these Oracle's Curses, the Secondary Curse is simply irrelevant, apart from enabling the other features of the Dual-Cursed archetype.

Wasting: You take a –4 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks, except for Intimidate. You gain a +4 competence bonus on saves made against disease. Existing rules or proposed change: For the most part, the penalties and bonuses should simply offset any other penalties and bonuses (however, see other Oracle's Curses with which this Oracle's Curse has weird interactions).

Wolf-Scarred Face: You have a severe speech impediment, and any spells you cast with a verbal component have a 20% chance of failing, wasting your action but not expending the spell. You gain a natural bite attack that deals 1d4 points of damage if you are a Medium creature or 1d3 points of damage if you are Small. Existing Rules: The Deaf Curse gets you off the hook for the spell failure part of this Oracle's Curse. Proposed Change: The Deaf Curse does not get you off the hook for the spell failure part of this Oracle's Curse. Unsolved complication: What if you have both the Hunger and Wolf-Scarred Face Curses? (These specify bite attacks of different size.) Missed opportunity: Duck-Scarred Face.

Wrecker: Held objects gain the broken condition when you use or equip them but regain their actual condition if employed by anyone else. If a held item is restored to unbroken condition, it becomes broken again the following round. Disable Device becomes a class skill for you and you can make Disable Device checks to destroy non-magical traps as a move action without the need to use tools or take any action beyond simply touching it. Existing rules or proposed change: Should be no issue either way.

Wrecking Mysticism (Kitsune): A divine entity has blessed you with a source of eldritch power that erodes your fortitude, increasing by 50% the duration of any poison, sickened condition, or nauseated condition affecting you. Existing rules or proposed change: Should be no issue either way.


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UnArcaneElection: you've already done 30+ more paragraphs of work than was needed IMO. Turning not a problem into another not a problem with extra work isn't a solution. I still haven't heard a good reason for making curses an exception from the way the rules work.

And even if I agreed you already missed things. For instance, an android takes Accursed even though they already cannot gain benefit from morale bonuses. This will only get tougher as each new curse would need checked vs every other curse PLUS every other character option that might interact with them to provide any kind of offset PLUS every new creature that might have the curse given to them...

Or you can take immunity to actually let you be immune to things and everything works just fine as is... *shrug* To each their own I guess. :P


UnArcaneElection wrote:
stuff

no just no


graystone wrote:

UnArcaneElection: you've already done 30+ more paragraphs of work than was needed IMO. Turning not a problem into another not a problem with extra work isn't a solution. I still haven't heard a good reason for making curses an exception from the way the rules work.

And even if I agreed you already missed things. For instance, an android takes Accursed even though they already cannot gain benefit from morale bonuses. This will only get tougher as each new curse would need checked vs every other curse PLUS every other character option that might interact with them to provide any kind of offset PLUS every new creature that might have the curse given to them...

Or you can take immunity to actually let you be immune to things and everything works just fine as is... *shrug* To each their own I guess. :P

Somebody has to go through these things with a fine-toothed comb and check for potential game breakers (and combinations that let you get something for nothing).

With respect to Androids having the Accursed Curse (sounds weird, but whatever), the inability to benefit from Morale Bonuses isn't totally redundant -- Androids have access to a feat that would let them benefit from Morale Bonuses. Nobody in their right mind would pick the combination of that feat and that Oracle's Curse, but you could have the feat and then get hit by Oracle's Burden from somebody who had the Accursed Curse.

Lady-J wrote:
no just no

Why?

Shadow Lodge

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Somebody has to go through these things with a fine-toothed comb and check for potential game breakers (and combinations that let you get something for nothing).

No, no one really needs to.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Somebody has to go through these things with a fine-toothed comb and check for potential game breakers (and combinations that let you get something for nothing).

You skipped a step: Proving that those gamebreakers are actually gamebreaking and/or the combos cause any issues/problems. I can't see that they do.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
With respect to Androids having the Accursed Curse (sounds weird, but whatever), the inability to benefit from Morale Bonuses isn't totally redundant -- Androids have access to a feat that would let them benefit from Morale Bonuses. Nobody in their right mind would pick the combination of that feat and that Oracle's Curse, but you could have the feat and then get hit by Oracle's Burden from somebody who had the Accursed Curse.

So it limits you taking one feat? I thought you'd be all over it as a curse the android could take to get 'something for nothing'. I guess I understand your complaints/issues with curses less than I thought.

Lady-J wrote:
no just no
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Why?

That's what i've been asking YOU. WHY? Nothing in the current way things works breaks anything, cause no conflict with other rules or game logic/fluff. Just WHAT is it that makes taking otherwise suboptimal builds that negate/sidestep a curses hindrances gamebreaking?

Silver Crusade

Wow, a lot of words in this thread. Anyway, in my game I wouldn't allow it, choosing a curse and a race like this specifically to suffer no drawbacks is silly.

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