A template is tempting, but still, I'd like to see dire animals statted up fully, to make it easier for druids to do their thing. I don't want druid players to have to sit down with the template and rebuild dire lions and dire sharks every time they need them.
BUT. I almost kinda want to ditch the "dire animal" category, except for dire wolves. I'd rather replace the "dire animals" with real-world prehistoric versions. The dire wolf IS a real-world prehistoric animal, for example. But the dire tiger isn't; in MY world, that slot would be taken up by the smilodon. The dire bear by the cave bear. The dire rat by a plain old giant rat. The dire shark by a megalodon. ETC.
That kicks sand in the backwards compatibility scene, though. Maybe instead we'd still list them as dire animals but give their real-world prehistoric analog name in parenthesis?
But yeah... just making an animal big and giving it bony spikes is the lazy solution for dire animals.
Can we have the prehistoric version of the hippo then? The pygmy hippo! They went extinct because, well, they were too cute to be allowed to live. It was the size of a small dog. You could keep it in your pool in the back yard. It sounds so cute in theory. I'd want one as an animal companion.
A dire hippo...Rawr!
see fine print.
Fine print: Smaller and less feral than real hippos. Like to snuggle with manatees where rivers meet oceans.
I hope it has monster conversions in it. My groups players have just been completely decimating all encounters with the new classes. The only things that can stand up to them are npcs who are classed with pathfinder levels, and those only last 2 rounds instead of 1. its ridiculous.
Great observation. I see this discordance as a result of the Pathfinder adventures pushing the envelope in terms of adventure design and content--and not yet finding the sweet spot of convergence between the cutting-edge genre elements you mentioned and the classic dungeon medium these elements must be funneled through.
I want the dungeon under the town. I want the bigger baddie behind the big baddy--and the biggest baddy behind them all. They are core elements of the D&D experience. But, like you, I would like to see the "Pathfinder Goblin" facelift blend more seamlessly (and more integrally) into the dungeon experience.
I suppose these elements of "adventure" are inescapable. Many people have explored the corners and hollows of small sewers or alley ways in their own home towns and wished for a real fantastic adventure, and many people have faced bullies and villians in their lives, and inside of these elements we can find the backbone of what makes the "dungeon under the town" and the "boss behind the boss" compelling.
And, like you, I agree that a more seamless transfer of the more memorable and unique experiences of pathfinder so far would be appropriate for future products. But I would like to see what NEW elements these minds can come up with as the backbone for adventures. I suppose I can't cast aside the cliche' adventures that have become a staple of the game, but I can call out to the writers to try their hands at searching for something new inside of themselves, rather than borrow from past great minds.
It is obvious that these creators are very talented and capable of crafting original, brilliant content that can draw players in. I just don't feel that using old techniques is entirely necessary when they clearly are able to generate such fabulous content in between the main story driving parts of the adventures.
I make no claim to be an amazing writer of adventures. I've only been DMing for about four years, and my creative education is at the level of an associates degree. But I can definitely spot great ideas. I've at least created or read enough terrible ones myself to know the difference.
Paizo has at its disposal some great talent. I have a lot of faith in their abilities. I want to see them go nuts. And I want the Pathfinder RPG to follow suit.
There are many ways in which I could suggest they fix 3.5, or add to it, but I think I would fall to far off topic, so I'll leave my thoughts at that.
I think tuning as healing is fine the way it is. Right now, if clerics use all their spells for healing, then they can never cast any of the "fun" spells clerics get, and that makes clerics boring and usually un-played. Additionally, it's not broken because if you use it in combat, you heal the enemies, so it is situationally only useful from back row placement in specific places.
In no way is it really broken. In fact, I'd argue healing as it was was brokenly un-fun and boring. Never mind that it slowed game play in such a manner that if parties wanted to continue they'd have to rest 8 hours...after every 2 encounters sometimes. Which makes the game, from a role-playing standpoint, a little ridiculous.
I do see differences in the two games based on the Alpha release, but I'm still not convinced the game itself is going to contain enough changes to justify its purchase. The world of Pathfinder seems generic so far as well... so I'd like to see more reasons from Paizo that show me that PF RPG will be a unique product and gameworld. Basically what's the hook for this game and line of products, other than it basically continues 3.5?
I know it's unrelated to the topic, but I'm at the end of book 3 of the first pathfinder series, and my players, as well as myself are already getting this sense of generic boredom that comes with reading a trite fantasy novel about the most typical of creatures and themes.
That is not to say that I haven't enjoyed some of the ideas that have come out of pathfinder, it's just the execution so far has left me a little discontent.
I loved how goblins were re-done, but nothing further was ever done with them, and aside froma weapon or two, nothing intriguing to the story line was used with them. and later, the idea of hill-billy ogres and giants was a great concept, but then it just came accross as a sidequest that had no real purpose because the true story was a stone giant under the leadership of an epic jerk was telling the giants to attack a fort.
And really, the goblins, and the hillbilly ogres, and the haunted mansion, these are what have shined in pathfinder so far. The actual story, the streets of magnimar, the first town you land in, the thorny forest, these have been so colorless and ignorable, that my players, and myself, have felt that these stories only exist to showcase the bizarre creations of creative minds, in small little windows in between the pieces of fluff that the designers expect everyone wants, but in reality, what we want is the unique haunts, the goblin chants and weapons, the gory hillbilly incest. Stone giants, dungeons under the town, these have been done. I've seen it, written it, ran it. There are probably twenty modules with dungeons under the towns. I have 2 staring at me from my bookshelf right now.
What's exciting is the new, the intriguing elements of pathfinder that take us to a new place in D&D. What bogs the game down are the cliche' and the typical.
I love pathfinder, and the idea of a 3.75, though originally not what I was expecting or wanting from paizo, is now something I encourage, but I sincerely hope that in the future, at least with the pathfinder line, paizo lets the creative minds behind these books let loose, and no longer tries to reign them down with ropes of decency(as commented upon in the editors notes in book3), normalcy(cliche' ideas found in every module), and expected(big boss behind it all, bigger boss behind him).
Let's see. so far I've found grappling to be not to my liking. Any creature larger than medium is now far less able to win grapples. So all monsters are weaker, especially monsters that use grapple as their main attack methods.
But my players like the new grappling rules. We took a vote. 2 players didn't care, 2 players liked them, and I didn't. So I'm keeping the new rules.
Basically the whole "cmb" thing is still up for debate.
Turn undead has been received quite well, and cleric is now a class that people are willing to play (besides myself when I'm a pc)
One thing every player wants though is official notes by the pathfinder team that annote current and future pathfinder books that aren't pathfinder rpg(as its in alpha) but convert them accurately to alpha and beta pathfinder rpg, respectively, so we can test the game properly.
The only other issues I can think of are that there are many areas that are a little confusing. For one, clerics don't have domains but get domain powers, but if you take a prestige class that increases your caster level, does this give you new domain powers? Going by how normal "special abilities" that come with levels in a class go, then you wouldn't. So really, new multiclassing, and Prestige class taking has been a little gimped.
Further, the new skill system hasn't "really" changed anything at all. Social encounters are exactly the same the way they were before. Physical skills act the same way as well.
All that has changed is that skills are simpler to manage. I think skills need to be re-imagined entirely to be honest. Or, at least, social skills need this retooling. They need to be more dynamic, because currently in 3.5, social skills and role-playing skills feel lifeless.
These are my impressions as a DM. And I've tried to convey the general consensus of my players as of alpha 1.1.
I think I should add though, the changes from 1.0 to 1.1, while retroactivly removing many aspects, were significant in how they made combat feats far more fun and easier to use. The chaining system in theory sounded great, but in practice no one in my group liked them, and now everyone is happy with them.
After reading this post a couple times, I think your mistaken on a few points. The first I pointed out in an earlier reply.
Here are the others.
About precise shot:
Precise shot can be used every round as it is in the alpha book.
About caught off guard(combat):
You said it can be used any # of times in a row. Clearly you did not read this feat. It reads "An unarmed opponent." So the person being attacked by a chair would have to not have any weapon in hand for all of these # of rounds you use as an example. Any object would count as an improvised weapon too, so the person being chaired to death could grab his own chair and he wouldn't be flat footed any more. So caught off guard isn't broken, your example doesn't make any sense. The person would have to stand there, unarmed all of those rounds. That isn't broken. The example is broken.
Identifying magical items can be done at will so effectively you will be taking twenty on the rolls. This means that you will automatically (take 20 or roll every 12 seconds until you get a 20) identify items that have a caster level of up to (five + int mod) greater than your own caster level.
I believe you can only try appraise on an item once, then once again after you get a new modifier(from identify the spell). which means you don't get a 20 every 12 seconds, you'd actually only get two rolls a day. If your DM allowed you to re-roll the next day. Otherwise you'd get two rolls period, until you leveled up, or got a int modifier bonus.
I like this skill a lot actually. I think of it like climb. Normally, a monster with a climb speed gets racial bonus to climb at +8 and can take 10. So a creature that flys naturally could get a +8 racial bonus to his fly skill, and take 10 on flying.
This way under say, for example, gale for winds, a little bird who could fly normally would get knocked down, with only an 18 as his regular check, but a bird skilled in flying, or a character, would be able to remain flying under such harsh conditions because he trains and practices his abilities to do so. Just like climbing is harder under certain conditions.
It makes perfect sense to me and I don't think having extra skills is "pointless" because if you think it's a pointless skill, then don't take it. The skill obviously has a point and a very specific use and purpose that fits a specific role in the rules. Before hand flying creatures had specific maneuverabilities that were very limited by these categories. Now they can train and be better based on this training. It makes sense that someone who practices swimming gets better at swimming than someone who swim once in awhile, so someone flying should be better at flying than someone who doesn't fly that often.
That how I argue for it, and that's why its obviously more useful than use rope. Anyone can tie a knot, and no matter who ties it, that not will be as strong if its tied the same way. But people doing physical things like flying, swimming, climbing, acrobatics, practice and training can increase someone's ability.
What abuse? If there are no undead around, it will heal the enemies as well. And if it is after the fight, then the party won't have to rest for 8 hours, needlessly dragging the story down.
Appraising items for value, worth, properties, makes sense in appraise to me. NPCs should be able to appraise magic items, and know all about them if they sell them, even if they know nothing about magic. And this happens with the appraise skill.
I think its supposed to represent the idea that people familair with things can understand them. Like how track was removed so that people with survival can just find footprints.
It makes logical sense since the 3.5 world is filled with non-mundane items, mundane people should have a firm idea of how they work.
"If you are trained you can use it in conjunction with detect magic and identify to determine the properties of a magic item"
then later it reads:
"You must be the cst of detect magic to use this skill"
Then even later it says:
"When using detect magic OR identify to appraise..." and further in that paragraph, "Additional attempts during the same casting of detect magic or identify reveal the same results.
So here are my questions/feedback.
First, do you need to cast identify AND detect magic? Because the first sentence says "And" but later it says or. And furthermore, under identify it says it acts like detect magic as well, so isn't it saying the same thing to say in conjunction, wouldn't you really only need identify.
And also, do you even need identify? Because of the "or" later, it can be interpreted as being that you can identify magic items with just detect magic and a hig skill modifier. Is this the case? Becuase the earlier sentence says you need both, (even though identify technically syas under its description that it IS both).
so which is it, do you need just detect magic, or do you need both, and shouldn't it read under appraise that when casting identify, you don't need detect magic, because identify does what detect magic does?
This is where the wording confusion comes from.
I found it reading over the book and then arguing about certain rules with a friend of mine. Which I think is the best way to find a problem in rules.
If something ever causes an argument of technicalities, or this-and-thats, its probably not clear enough, and needs to be made so.
I made an error in using alterations on monsters that wizards owns, as well as not knowing what lvl the module was for. Though to be fair, the level wasn't in the submission guide lines.
The mayor of Azurestone has been reduce person-ed, turned to stone, and kidnapped! While kidnapping and ransom seem to be the point of the caper, as it was done by a gang of local warlocks and sorcerers from the wild lands, and the turning to stone and reduce person are clearly a means to make travel easier, the truth is that a powerful monk/cleric named Gillyop Jeridighill, a devoted servant to a terrible God of Abberations, is bringing the mayor back to his monastery in the Fog Peak Mountains for a terrible purpose.
For many years now, High Monk Gillyop and his devoted novices have been researching and performing aberrational divine magics upon creatures in and around the Fog Peak Mountains, in the hopes of finding a cure to normalcy. They have added many grafts to their own bodies in this pursuit, twisting and malforming themselves in order to achieve a divine perfection.
Recently, their dark God sent an agent to guide their research, a Beholder with all mouths instead of eyes, who helped the monks finally discover a way to alter Humanity for once and for all. They have created a disease that plants aberration seeds onto the top layer of the body, that then grow into symbiotic-grafts over time.
Now, in an act that Gillyop considers to be divine benevolence, the monks are taking the mayor of Azurestone back to their dark and towering monastery in the mountains to implant the very first Egg of the Aberration inside his chest. Cleverly, Gillyop knows that the mayor will be rescued by some foolish heroes, but because the seeds are contagious and spore-like when they sprout, Gillyop allows the mayor to be rescued, hoping the heroes catch the awful growths from the infected mayor, only to become evil slaves of the Aberration God once the symbiotes fully hatch and vie for control of the host's body. How will the Heroes deal with the terrors of the twisted Fog Peak Mountains? How will they contend with the forces of the insane monasteries' denizens? Will they get help to the mayor and the citizens of Azurestone before they all become mindless piles of tentacles and goo?
In the end, there is a possible cure, but only Gillyop and the eyeless Beholder hold the keys to unlocking the mysteries of the Aberration Seeds.
To answer any questions that my description didn't cover, during the chase, the warlocks and sorcerers of the wild lands are the early encounter. The wild lands are also populated by some new monsters created by the monks. One of these would be, for example, a Giraffe with a lions head, that whips its neck forward to strike with a bite. Or an elephant with a snake bite at the end of its trunk. Think the island of Dr. Moreau, but instead of mashing humans and animals, the new monsters are a mash-up of animals and animals, in grotesque, but useful and violent ways. Additionally, the eyeless all-teeth beholder would be a new creature. I don't know the level planned for this module, but he could be tuned to cast many spells at once from each mouth to make up for the loss of his eyes, or be tuned for lower levels and have many bite attacks that hit for low damage.
The final showdown would take place with Gillyop, whose body has been so transformed that embedded in his stomach is a beholder kin, peering outwards from his open robes, glaring intensely while Gillyop fights with his monk-enhanced fists. This takes place while Gillyop's pet advanced-choker gives him support, as they fight atop giant, hideous and twisted mushrooms, shooting disease and gases, which make up the spore farms for the aberration seeds, deep beneath the Fog Peak Monastery.
-A state-run zoo housing monsters. Real ones too, no stupid dire rats. I want cloakers, chokers, and maybe an angel or a demon.
-A military academy where you can actually join magnimars guards/military.
-Some building that represents or offers something counterculture to magnimars society. Nothing typical. In the real world this would be a punk-rock show in the late 70s or, today, some kind of fetish club. Counter-culture speaks about the actualy culture. I don't know, it just popped into my head.
-A place where philosophers bother you with their philosophies. Like a philosopher's alley. Remember that scene in "the life of brian," with all the soap box speakers?
- a slave market(goo place to plant an interesting npc)
-I'd like some sort of trend to belong to the city that fluctuates depending upon a factor, and it could be one of 4 trends that are very silly and outragous, but always changing whenever you go to the city, so it is hard to keep up with the trend. Like how Victorian trends changed often, but silly and fun, that allow for interesting roleplaying ideas too. Like one week all the men wear false dwarf beards...maybe thats abad example but you see where I'm going wiht this? The next week, after the dwarf had been so popular with his real beard, he's out of style and looked down on. something like that. Cities feel more alive with organic elements and culture. Structures and businesses aren't what "do it" for me. I need people and activities.
I don't think its to early for novels. Eberron was pumping those babies out incredibly early. Lets see some runelord drama, or riddleport noir books. Maybe a free supplement of short stories set in pathfinder verse. I would love to contribute a story from a goblins perspective, or maybe even a sinspawn. Never mind the potential for pathfinder-esque stories like those spoken of in pathfinder #1. Its hard to discern what I mean here between pathfinder's in-game stories, and pathfinder the book, but I hope I got it across... Short stories!
It was impossible for him to escape, at least in my game. The party chased a surviving goblin to his room, and since it is a 4 square room, with one exit, the party fills the hall way outside and slaughters him.
I did have a really interesting encounter in the catacombs of wrath later though, which I'll probably make a post about in a little while.
English books always say procrastination is part of the writing process. So don't worry about not getting anything down yet. It's important to solidify those ideas you have spinning around first.
I just started visiting Paizo's boards a few days ago, so I didn't get the chance to jump into the competition. Is Paizo likely to offer anything similar in the near future?
I think they said in the other open call thread that "open calls are very likely to continue." Something like that.
I think they do a lot of good for the company. Good press, site traffic, and customers appreciate the participation element, even if they don't make it in.
me too haha. I told Lareth the beautiful he was an "ugly garbage face." in my game along time ago. It was a hilarious and awesome adventure, though I think more becaue of the players and not the adventure itself.
well I don't know who did the art for pathfinder 1, but I absolutely loved it. Especially the goblins. They are probably my favorite art pieces in any dnd product I've ever bought, aside from a few eberron books, which I would consider on par.
And I happened to really like the character portraits. Ultra realistic and nonstylesed, or what I refer to as "80's hair-metal fantasy art" is boring and stupid. I Like the new feel and designs that are in pathfinder. I'd love to see more of it.
Also, one malicious post from a guy who never came back to discuss it is pretty worthless.
My characters think Aldern Foxglove had something to do with the goblin attack on Sandpoint. Silly players. If they do a gather info what will they find out. Does he visit Sandpoint often? What do the locals think of him?
I believe people would say he's just a rich noble from magnimar that comes out to the country to hunt boar and fowl. In my game, they'd say he's an eccentric, silly, and foppish young man from magniamar that has been coming to Sandpoint for many years. Despite his strange demeanor, he loosely tosses money around in an effort to make friends, and his 3 manservants never leave his side. Maybe a higher check would reveal his noble house and where their money comes from? Course, that doesn'y clarify anything for you I guess, I'm just tossing oyu some ideas. The book does say hes a noble from magniamar though. pg 13 says he is a noble. pg 16 says he is going back to his home in magniamar.
I actually do like that the history and feel are being changed. I didn't like greyhawk's feel. I always played in homebrew worlds, and whenever possible threw out the gods and stuff that wizards put in its core books. When playing modules we would always have to adapt it to our own worlds because, well, greyhawk is boring to us, and everything tied to it feel dry, played out, a little lame.
I am excited and waiting happily for the changes. Everything I've read so far is exactly what I've been wanting.
I think someone should start a thread: "Guidelines for interesting high level games" and it can be a set of rules. Like for instance:
Rule 1: no dragon bosses
Rule 2: no evil outsider bosses
Rule 3: no plane hopping
It should not be so difficult to come up with an intrigueing story for epic levels. I say this while never having run a game past level 15 myself yet. Maybe it is hard... I know that it was rather rare to see epic level adventures in dungeon. I always considered submitting ideas but I wasn't sure how to go about it/do epic level encounter crunchy number jazz.
The future of RotRL looks really promising though. Based on what I've read in pathfinder #1 I can already tell what the last dungeon and encounter will feel like, and it's giving me nostalgic ideas of return to the temple of elemental evil but mixed with like, the giant ruins of xendrik in Eberron.
I can picture it now, the runeslaved giants kept in captivity by thier runecasting masters, towing the giants around with their magics. possibly some sort of rune etched sin-collar, like small versions of the great ring that hangs over riddleport...i dont know why that popped into my head, but anyways, thats the kind of "feeling" I'm getting so far. Even if I'm way off, I know that the idea of rune magic, and ancient evils controlled by man is cool.
Most epic games consist of dealing with god-obsessed whackos filled with divine power, or outer evils, or some lame-o dragon. I hate dragons. I know its dnd but seriously, enough with the dragons already. The idea of immortal men who gained power long ago reawakening in the present to rape the world with their vast powers is just cool to me. I hope I'm onto something. Thats the kind of pathfinder I want to see I guess. I know my players want something original. So far they are very pleased by the reimagined goblins, and everyone at the table has truly enjoyed the great goblin art in the books.
Oh, that reminds me. Paizo needs posters of the art from pathfinder, specificaly the goblins and other cool monsters. Also, maybe little plushie goblins, though i think someone already mentioned that. Well I'm way off topic now haha.
I did, and it is my first submission of any kind to any rpg company, so I'm nervous. But I've been writing and DMing for years. It was my major in college...The writing, not the DMing haha. So who knows, right? Good luck everyone.
theres a class in the book of 9 swords that gets divine powers, or inspirations, that inspire his combat and discipline. He's like a paladin, but it is his devotion to a cause, deity, master, or ect that grant him his abilities. I think its called crusader but I can't find my book atm.
Anyhow that would also fit along the Hellknight lines from what I can tell.
Forcing evil slaves to do your bidding is a cool idea though. In the Wolrds Largest Dungeon theres a big section where a bunch of devils were imprisoned by angels for this purpose, and if you read dragonlance at all, the high priest of istar was kind of a evil jerk but still the "high priest."
I find that inter-party conflict drags the game down into a 'min-max who can stab whom in the back first' first person shooter rather than a role playing game. If being 'immature' and 'taking the game too seriously' means leaving a game where the DM and a single player think their 'fun' of screwing everyone else over is more important than anyone else's in game goals and ambitions, then I shall wear the tag proudly.
I do not find being a jerk creative thinking.
I apologize if I am coming off rather hostile, NotJeff. Obviously my opinions are strongly influenced by personal experience. My comments are not directed at you, but more at gamers I have known. Yeah, I am talking about you, Matt.
My players aren't jerks though. They are mature role-players. Maybe even, amateur improv-actors. They aren't jerks that just attack whoever contradicts them, they role play it out, or seek out npcs to role play a back-stabing behind the scenes betrayal plot.
I think if you found a group more suited to this style, the style I was referring to, you'd find a whole new world of fun D&D open up.
It has some nonsensical errors, that I won't go into to avoid spoiling, but I still found it fun to play in. My friend converted it to d20 past, and we had a blast with it.
As long as "puzzlemasters" is explained at somepoint, I'l be happy, It just left it open to so many AWESOME interpretations, I wanna know what way it is actually taken.
The larger the pool of people participating in something, the greater amount of people will be angered by any changes made to it.
For this example, lets say 100 people play dnd, and any change given will upset 1% of its player base. So 1 person would be pissed. World of Warcraft has about 1000 players, and that 1% is 10 people. WoD, and the others, have say 6 players, so the upset community is .6 people. The difference in the amount of voices screaming is all that shows. A games popularity dictates how many people will complain about changes. It doesn't always mean the changes are bad. The only way to tell if changes are truly bad is by looking at sales, and post-market sales.
Do any of the upcoming pathfinders focus on riddleport? For some reason 2 of my 5 players love the name, the ideas coming out of it, and the concepts of the great ring and puzzle masters. I want more riddleport!
I never restrict my players alignments. I hold a world, a story, they interact with it. If I tell them what their personalities are, even if it is just to say that their personalities are within a certain boundary, well, that is restrictive and less fun for truly creative players. If you are a good DM you will be able to come up with creative ways to counteract, interact, and control evil with story elements. Also, I find that inter-party conflict leads to the best role-playing and creative thinking, regarding how to attack a problem. If player groups break up over pc killing and such it isn't because evil was a problem, it is because the player group was immature or took the "game" far to seriously.
This is a game, we're meant to have fun, and if you can have some fun with evil then go for it!
Family Tradition (bonus feat): Your Minkainese family has passed down the craft of a specific skill through their many generations. You receive a +2 to a craft skill of your choice, a +2 to a profession skill that is associated with the same craft skill, and a +2 to the appraise skill.
First question: The players guide has a side note about giant lizards, but unlike the other possible animal companions it does not say what its stats could be. Any clarification?
Second question: One of my players wants to be from riddleport, but pathfinder offers no information about this city, and the players guide only refers to it as a scurvy city full of pirates and cutthroats, also harboring puzzle masters and a "great ring". Can you discuss at all what this "great ring" is and what a puzzle master is?
My player was thinking they are all some sort of puzzling and riddling half-mad pirates!
