If your only goal is to get the Lead Blades spell, then I'm going to say it's really not worth it. Legally, yes it works, but all you're doing is investing an ENTIRE class level to cast a first level spell a limited number of times per day to slightly enhance your weapon die damage while spending an action doing it. I would suggest instead taking ranks in UMD (synergising with a higher paladin charisma) and just buying a 750gp wand of Lead Blades if you want it that much.
Since people seem confused as to the multiple summons of the Master Summoner in this thread: PFSRD wrote: Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + his Charisma modifier. The summoner can use this ability when his eidolon is summoned. Only one summon monster spell may be in effect while the eidolon is summoned. If the summoner’s eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability. Other than these restrictions, there is no limit to how many summon monster or gate spells the summoner can have active at one time. Keep in mind this is only for the master summoner archetype.
I'm curious, what is the goal of this character? What parts of the rogue do you enjoy? Is it a sniper type? Because those are really hard to do with sneak attack. If you want a melee style "rogue" my best suggestion is the beastmorph vivisectionist. It gives sneak attack, pounce, basically as many skills w/ a decent intelligence, and extracts for utility.
Abraham spalding wrote:
I never thought about it not working in an anti-magic area. I stand corrected.
If you want a really tanky frontliner who can do a massive amount of healing (and sometimes a startling amount of damage) go the Hospitaler Paladin. Especially once you get access to shield other you will be able to soak a lot of damage for the party, then heal it off through lay on hands, and channeling. You get heavy armor, Sword and board, and when you need it smite is just godly damage. To make it more absurd, make him the Tiefling that gets +Str/Cha, and take the FCB that gives +1 healing/FCB when self healing w/ lay on hands, along with the Fey Foundling Feat. The only problem with this is your party will lack some damage unless you're smiting, but a 16 Str w/ smite should still do well at the low levels.
Ssalarn wrote:
Yea, the skirmisher tricks are most likely going to be limited in a way similar to the ranger. I personally know one of the Paizo developers (not naming since I asked in confidence/not an official ruling) that it will most likely have some kind of 1/2 level+wis mod thing. As for limited number of tricks, I'm probably going to make mine a human and take Eye for talent and give it the +2 int (and made the every 4 level int boosts too, I just like the idea of a pet smarter than the barbarian). Late game , yes it's going to be weak, but it's going to be pretty strong early game, which is the majority of PFS play. If you decide to go melee style w/ a reach weapon even the lack of BaB will be somewhat made up for by the stacking of feats like outflank and a couple others. My other thought, since the hunter is fairly front-loaded (access to all skirmisher tricks, the hunter bond) all at level one, I could make a Nature oracle (probably kitsune for flavor) and have the AC progress through that, though I will take a significant spell level progression hit, you actually won't lose out greatly on the hunter stuff by going full caster while still having access to skirmisher tricks at no cost (depending on use/day ofc)
I'm actually really stoked for the hunter. In the playtest I had completely written it off, but now I find it really coll. I probably will just go a reach weapon build without archetype rather then powergaming the evolutions (and divine hunter would be awesome if it didn't give up the teamwork fights, yes I can go inquisitor but I don't want to). My other picks would be the Daring Champion cavalier, and the Shaman. I'll still wait for the FAQs to come out before rolling a hunter at the least, we need to figure out how the skimirsher tricks work.
Why not just go full Swashbuckler? Dodge and Mobility are disappointing feats to say the least, and you're missing out on one of the most broken possibilities in the game by not going 7th level Swashbuckler. The 14k Cape of Feinting combined with the superior Feint deed allows you to infinitely Daze an opponent (and daze works on pretty much everything). You'll also get a ton more feats, from freeing up the dodge/mobility prereq to getting swashbuckler bonus feats.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Whoops I meant cavalier archetype. My brain sorta fuzzled there. Sidenote, I thought samurai/ninja could take their classes archetypes so long as they still have the abilities being replaced.
1. Yes. He gains all the benefits, even if they make no sense.
This could be stronger. Tanks in Pathfinder aren't all about having solid AC/hit points. You need to be a threat on the board, and a 15 Str is fairly low for a 2H barb. More worrisome, is the 7 Wisdom. Someone will eventually have you fail a will save and you'll kill your party. If you're going the combat reflexes route, use a polearm. It will greatly increase your damage output. The most popular way I've seen to build a "tank" barbarian is the Stalwart route. Basically, you go the invulnerable rager route, take the combat reflexes feat, and use the stalwart feats to convert the dodge from combat reflexes into more DR. You will easily be having DR over 10, whille having a high strength to dish out tons of damage. On top of that, around mid level you will need to get the supersitious rage power, and invest your human FC bonus into it. This will give you a massive boost to your saves (but don't have this let you skip out on a cloak of resistance!)
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Having claws does not grant you IUS for the purpose of qualifying for feats. He would have to take IUS and Feral Combat Trainingto be able to take and use style feats with his claw attacks. This is normally the case, but the Tengu is an exception. Claw Attack: Claw Attack Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws as natural weapons. They gain two claw attacks as primary natural attacks that deal 1d3 points of damage, and are treated as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats. This racial trait replaces swordtrained.
I would disagree heavily with weapon specialization. A bonus 2 damage, esp when you're not going to dual wield isn't very strong, and it's a fairly boring feat. An important feat for swashbucklers is Combat Reflexes, unless I missed an entry that gives them more AoOs. I also find the Step up Chain to be fun. If you're not attached to the falcata (I would understand why) you can go w/ a martial weapon, and trade out your swordtraining for claws, which effectively give you Improved Unarmed Strike so you can go for the plethora of style feats out there.
One minor note is falcata is a 19-20 x3 crit range, so it expands to 17-20. You're going to be weak for your first few levels until you hit slashing grace (first level you should probably just run some beefy 18 str w/ a 2h guy). You don't even get dex to damage/attack until 3rd level, and a +2/3 to attack isn't going to cut it most likely. You might want to take a look at the Cavalier archetype in the ACG. Very similar playstyle/mechanically, just stronger in most ways, especially after 4th level.
Zwordsman wrote:
I have no doubt that investigators aren't bad at TWF. They are certainly better than rogues at it. I just find that going the TWF route is solely for the purpose of doing damage, when and investigator, for similar or less investment, contribute more effectively in combat through utility and disruption.
Zwordsman wrote:
I would disagree with TWF. It has been for the most part established rogues suck at TWF. I think the investigator is stronger potentially than rogue combat wise, because of studied combat and mutagen, but they have no feat support, 3/4 bab, and their stats are wonky. They prioritize Int above a combat rogue, who would at least have Dex synergy. They also lose out on a round of studied combat/full attacking if they don't have the swift action talent, which once again cuts back on their utility (which is by far the defining feature of this class). To make their damage reasonably good (seeing that str would be third at best, probably fourth since you don't want a low con) they would need serious feat investment in combat (arcane strike, in addition to the TWF feats, maybe extra talent for the combat investigator talents) where the main role of the investigator isn't usually damage (ESPECIALLY if you look at OPs party, a Barb and a paladin??) where the utility build will have arguably more of an impact with less of a feat cost. Just my 2cp.
@Some Other Guy: Sickening Offensive only requires level 7. The investigator talent Stealing Strike, which is right below it, requires a 13th level. But seriously, don't pick the strikes. Again, an alternative to this is the cruel weapon enchantment (though I don't like it as much, since it requires a second successful attack to get it, which isn't as feasible if you want to do it all in one round) @ChesterCopperpot: Thanks for the bruising intellect. I forgot to mention it in the build.
I always strongly suggest that all characters in a party have some role in combat, so here's how I helped build an investigator for a friend of mine in the playtest (and some changes I'd make w/ the final version). First: Your role isn't damage. If we go on the forge of combat analogy, you're not the hammer, you're an Arm. Your job is the facilitation of party damage. The best way I found to do this was through debuffs. You can take the enfocer/bludgeoner route (intimidate any enemy damaged by your nonlethal damage) and either a cruel weapon or the sickening offensive investigator talent later on. You can also go the trip route with some weapons, or if you don't want to get in your allies way, use a polearm and the Spear Dancer feat to inflict the dazzled condition. Stat priority, Int>Str>Con>Dex>Wis>Cha. Use Studied combat for the huge bonus to attack rolls, ignore the badness that is studied strike, and keep your opponents from being a threat to your party! (I mean really, later on when you have bludgeoner/enforcer, a polearm like a lucern hammer, cruel and spear dancer, you're easily inflicting a -5 to attack on any enemy).
I saw a fair bit of comments about don't run it cold, etc., it's badwrong, never do it, but I admit in rare cases (last minute offer to GM comes to mind a few times) I've had to run cold and had a fair bit of success. Running cold isn't for everyone. You need to be a fast reader, and have very good-exceptional system mastery. You need to be adaptable and quick thinking.
For the system mastery, it sucks when I GM has to waste time digging into a book to find out what x does (though this happens even in prepped scenarios), so knowedge of feats and spells is really important for running cold. If you don't think you're good at this, maybe cold-running isn't for you. I once had to run a special cold at GenCon (I heard they didn't have enough GMs for the special so I went up to Mike Brock and offered to GM). I had maybe a few hours (less since I was also playing and had to get food) so I did get 1-2 read throughs, but no thorough prep. At the end every player thanked me and one even asked if I was a 5-star GM I ran it so well. If only.
If you want strong healing AND buffing you're fairly restricted to Cleric or Oracle. However, what I've often found is that the most well-rounded a party is, the better it performs, and the less and less it needs a person in the heal-bot role. In this case, I would suggest one of three class options: Bard. I find two builds work best for this. The first is the standard bard. Pros: high charisma,, plenty of skill versatility, throws out Inspire courage/good hope/haste, then calls it a day. I would suggest the Flagbearer feat and the Banner of the Ancient Kings, thus removing the need for Good Hope and giving you the ability to throw out all of your necessary buffs in one round. This works best when you have a few more martials to support (minimum 2, works wonders at boosting allies' iteratives and 3/4 BaBers) Bard Archer. This build I like the most, and falls in line with Magda's suggestion of filling a second role (in this case, massive DPS). Dexterity and Charisma are a priority, followed by Strength and Con. A 2-level dip into paladin gives you everything you want in Precise Shot, Longbow proficiency, and Cha to saves (seriously this one is a huge boon). You should probably run Aasimar (musetouched) in order to keep your inspire courage up to par. You won't be able to use the flagbearer feat, but you still have Inspire courage/haste and now you can use good hope, while benefiting from those same buffs when you're launching a ton of arrows at +5/+5. The best form of crown control is death (sans those stupid necromancers. Next on our list is the sorcerer/wizard. Minor buffing abilities, but that's is not where our support comes in. For this build, we will specialize in conjuration for most combat control. Alternatives include enchantment and illusion, but conjuration fits our needs. Haste is still a primary spell. Seriously, best buff spell in the game. Your supporting strength comes in the form of crown control. Why do you need heals when your opponent is locked in an Aqueous orb or blinded by glitterdust, or when your summoned monsters are eating the hits? Probably the one you want least here, but had to be said. Finally, the Oracle/Cleric/ Shaman (see ACG playtest). These guys have a portion of buffing spells (see Blessing of Fervor, the Divine Haste), and also have access to healing, but I don't think going full-blown life oracle or healing domain cleric is absolutely necessary. Buffs and utility spells are crucial here (for all the builds, always have a way to deal w/ invisibility, be it glitterdust, see invisibility, or invisibility purge). Anything that hinders and opponents attacks is effectively prematurely healing your allies. Anything that misses because of a debuff (which is the oracle/cleric speciality, hmm I guess we can add witch to this category) is more power to you (and generally prevents more damage than your spells would heal!). For domains, I would suggest: Travel (just always good to have), Liberation (your allies hitting because of being freed by you is effectively damage you're doing), and Luck (I'm seeing a Desna trend here..). I only used Core Rulebook, so there may be other useful ones in other books. Oracle Mystery/Revelations that are good include: Life (for strict super healing, but that's basically all you'll ever do, Boring!), or Lore (be that knowledge monkey! Knowing is half the battle...). Far more important in my mind than the mystery choice (there's potentially better ones in UM, I'm just getting lazy) is the dual-cursed archetype. See that misfortune revelation? Take it, worship it. This allows allies to rerolls misses, and allows you to negate crits. Honorable mention: Hospitaler Paladin. The amount of hurt these guys can take is phenomenal. You'll be up in the front in heavy armor and a shield taking the hits. Prioritize charisma, place shield other on those squishy allies, and spam lay on hands and channels (quick channel if needed) and this actually becomes a fairly useful way to heal. I would strongly suggest the Fey Foundling feat at first level to maximise self-healing, and for race either human for the feat or tiefling for the increased self-healing of lay on hands. To make sure you're not ignored, you could take improved trip or something along those lines to keep yourself relevant. As probably mentioned above, conditions on enemies are crippling, and very support-y. If that wasn't enough, combat expertise requires a 13 intelligence. Want to know what else does? Unsanctioned knowledge. This feat allows you to add other classes' spells to your list. Hmm, Haste? (If you can't tell, I love haste. Yes I do play barbarians/archers/two-handed paladins) Other buff spells also of use. However, your 1st level spells prepared will generally consist of hero's defiance, hero's defiance, and maybe another hero's defiance. You'll be taking tons of damage from shield other, so you have a risk of dropping. Other notable mentions include paladin's sacrifice (more saving your allie's with worse saves/AC) and the litanies (stupid strong spells, no save conditions, or heck double damage for anybody with a good aura, aka paladins, clerics, etc.) TLDR: Healbots aren't great. Focus on buffing/debuffing, use control spells or damage to remove enemies from the fight. The best defense is a good offense.
Just played this as a table of 6 (high tier: level 5 cleric, level 8 sorcerer(me), level 8 or 9 barbarian, level 8 or 9 alchemist, 8 or 9 inquisitor, and a level 9 swashbuckler) and here's my thoughts. The tavern was easy for us. I have a +15 bluff with 1 rank in it, the inquisitor had over a 30 to bluff. 2 invisibility spells later and we were moving on with the scenario. The lose gold if you beat the trap is stupid. My sorcerer literally could not fail to disable or spot any of the traps in here. We ended up going down there to loot it so the GM gave us the gold for it. The climb: this is a pain for a 7 strength sorcerer, but really it's a character design fault and I was rightfully penalized as such. The rest of the party was usually able to fast climb, and the enemies up top weren't enough of a threat to do much to them. For the people saying they flew up, our party had chains try to attack then and drag them back down (Fly check DC 30 to avoid) so I'm not sure what the difference was here. My one successful spell, glitterdust, stopped the invisibility at least! The final fight. Everyone else here had a hard time, but I guess I got lucky. Haste helped a ton, and Aqueous orb reliably kept 1 kyton out of the fight. Both the barbarian and Swashbuckler each did over 100 points of damage in a full round attack this fight, and the alchemist had holy bombs. Maybe I was just lucky, but this fight didn't seem all that threatening. The kytons have a hard time hitting anything over a mid 20 AC, and don't do a ton of damage. If the GM hasn't pre-buffed the magus with defensive spells (he should only have shield) then his abysmal AC let's him be destroyed before he can put up displacement/mirror image (especially since tactics apparently prioritize haste over these. In all an enjoyable scenario, especially since my sorcerer is one of the very exclusive Fetchlings that defected from the Onyx Alliance, I felt fairly invested. The horror of Zon-Kuthon was emphasized quite heavily, and the plot was enough to keep everyone interested. Pity I couldn't keep the obelisk.
Well the Divination Cloak of the hedge wizard gives detect magic at will for 2500, as well as 1/day true strike and detect secret doors.
If you haven't made the character I would hold off on your class choice until the ACG comes out. The slayer base class may be appealing, and an archetype was also announced called the Sanctified Slayer (unknown for which class, though if it isn't for the slayer I'd be a tad surprised, maybe inquisitor).
The ranger can see invisible with a spell-like ability. I will say that as this party goes into the later levels certain control spells will be absolutely crippling. Flight, wall spells, invisibility, will all be extremely hard for the party to deal with. The same goes for condition removal (blindness, neg levels, and so on). I will also agree that the tiefling Fey Foundling Paladin's self heals are hideously good, and well outweigh the displacement SLA. For the barbarian, I would personally suggest human, and take the favored class bonus to boost superstition. The saves will be through the roof, which is definitely needed for a barbarian.
blahpers wrote:
Perhaps I understated the player a bit, but still his response was to ban the hypothetical player from his table. Period. Simply for asking if he could do it.
Unless I'm fighting something with true seeing I would take displacement over haste any day of the week. 50% miss chance basically negates the barbarian/bllodrager's normally weak AC, and I'd argue flat miss chance is superior to the AC of a dragon disciple. Side note: I don't have the ACG in front of me, isn't the dragon bloodline form of the dragon a bonus spell, not an at will rage ability? It's just a bit more action economy and flexibility I guess, at the cost of being slightly weaker.
Wiggz wrote:
Basically take your other classes' BAB, and then add BAB to that equal to your monk level, subtract 2 from all attacks and gain an extra attack. It does allow extra iteratives, and could potentially even grant you some. EDIT: relevant FAQs:"Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1? A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total. So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20." "Monk: How does a monk's improved BAB when flurrying interact with feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, which have different effects depending on your BAB?
Especially with the second one, flurry is strictly better. I would suggest a thorough reading of the monk flurry of blows just to understand exactly what it is it gives.
Blood rager has a ton of cool perks. If this we're going past 12, then I'd say arcane bloodline blood rager. At 16th level literally every time they rage they get a free form of the dragon, along with other nice buffs like displacement or haste. This is. Truly mighty dragon warrior (and basically better than a DD at this level) The arguably strongest dragon disciple build is the bard (or sorc I guess) paladin, so do you want to play the righteous dragon knight? Actually that sounds really cool. Sme kind of holy warrior imbued with divinity to fight as a dragon or something. If wings are your thing, then DD simply wort work in PFS, as mentioned above. Some blood rager bloodlines get wings around 8 or 12.
Mathius wrote:
I think I just found a new NPC for my campaign too. Except...dual wielding whips? Hmm even better, how does whirlwind attack interact with dimensional dervish? Whirlwind attack is a full attack, and dervish just let's you teleport during it. Hmmm. EDIT: answering the actual question.
I don't see why you are taking rapid shot. Flurry of bows is literally the same thing. Because of the monk flurry errata your flurry BaB stacks with your other classes' BAB for determining to hit. Monk flurry progression is "full BAB" with a -2 penalty to get a bonus attack. It's strictly better than rapid shot by a +1 to attack and doesn't cost a feat. The only reason I can see you taking rapid shot is to do many shot as well, but with a build as feat starved as yours is, many shot will already be quite delayed. Up to you I guess if you want to spend two feats to only gain one extra attack. Now that I say it it actually doesn't seem that bad. But that will only kick in at 15th level. Definitely not worth it IMO.
Double slice is a trap feat. Don't take it. It's 2 damage for your off-hand attack, not really worth it. The great thing about he ranger combat styles is that you can take two-weapon rend w/out double slice. I'd consider taking improved critical at 8 (use a talent to get a bonus feat) other than keening both weapons. Do you know if you're going to have another heavy hitter? I often like to get butterfly sting if I know someone can benefit. Iron will is almost always going to be a feat you want. Will is a bad save, and your wisdom isn't exactly stellar. This is starting to get into the realm of cheesy, but there's a feat in ultimate combat that gives double threat range to all weapons against one favored enemy. Ask you GM if he'll allow it to work with favored target (if he does he's crazy) For the future: go the critical route. Critical focus into another crit feat. Preferably one that stacks (I hear bleeding critical does). You can add sneaking precision onto that for even more critical shenanigans. Shadow Strike could also be a potentially good feat for you to make the sneak attacks land on blurred targets too.
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