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Ive tried a few times now to purchase 3 pdfs which are still in my cart. Each time, it makes it as far as asking for the security code on my debit card, then when i enter it and press the button it shows a loading symbol for a second then does nothing.

My account order history says no pending orders.

My account says one order was declined today.

My bank says no orders have been declined and $800 in my account.

My bank says i have 4 orders pending for the same amount as the digital order.

Not sure whats going on.

My biggest question is does Spear Dancing Spiral mean to say that the chosen weapon counts as a quarterstaff?

Because say that I wanted to take quarterstaff master, tripping staff, or tripping twirl. All these require weapon focus quarterstaff (the last also req specialization) and I've already taken weapon focus in a chosen spear to get the style.

Does my already selected weapon focus meet the prerequisite of the quarterstaff feats as if it were a quarterstaff?

Should each instance of the spell being a unique creature mean that if you cast the same spell again in a 24 hour period that when you summon it the second time that it has whatever HP it had when dismissed, and that if it died then the spell fails for the next 24 hours?

I am also trying to work on an archetype for the summoner that uses these, and lets the summoner learn one unique version of each spell when he would normally have learned summon monster as a spell like ability. The end result is that you have like a thunderbird spell like ability for you SE1 slot, and like a spider for your se2 slot... and that you could use your summon monster ability to summon them... but that youd still have your MAIN ediolon who was better. Id like for the summon-ediolon creatures to improve over time, but i also want these abilities to be balanced... and im not sure how to do that...

I think its important to offer the summoner something in exchange for his decreased flexibility in trading the summon monster spell like abilities for the summon Ediolon spell like ability.

Thoughts?

Why would you give wizard/sorcerer the summoner's main class feature they have enough tricks of their own.

Because it isnt as good as the Summoner's version?

Not to mention that since Summoners only get 6th level spells, if you dont let wizards learn it, there would be no class to learn the 7th,8th and 9th level versions.

Slapped this together at 2am, looking for opinions.

Typically this spell is learned from the Unique creature summoned, typically as a reward for defeating it. Perhaps some summoners have crafted items that allow the casting of a specific version of one of these spells once per day. Its even rumored that some summoners can cast "summon ediolon" instead of their summon monster abilities.

SUMMON EIDOLON I
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons a unique extra planar creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

The spell conjures an Ediolon equivalent to that of a 1st level summoner, except that it has 8 hp(do not roll hit dice), and that when you learn this spell, You choose which kind of creature it summons, Choosing the Base form and the 3 evolution points worth of evolutions. You also choose the name and appearance of the Unique creature summoned. You may not change these choices once you have learned the spell, though you choose to learn this spell again as a seperate spell known, choosing a new Unique creature.

An Ediolon, like any summoned creature, cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Summoners may not use class abilities that refer to their personal Eidiolon with ediolons summoned with this spell.

SUMMON EIDOLON II
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As Summon Eidolon I, except the Eidolon has the statistics of a 3rd level Eidolon, 12hp and 5 evolution Points.

SUMMON EIDOLON III
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As Summon Eidolon I, except the Eidolon has the statistics of a 5th level Eidolon, 16hp and 8 evolution Points.

SUMMON EIDOLON IV
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As Summon Eidolon I, except the Eidolon has the statistics of a 7th level Eidolon, 24hp and 10 evolution Points.

SUMMON EIDOLON V
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As Summon Eidolon I, except the Eidolon has the statistics of a 9th level Eidolon, 28hp and 13 evolution Points.

SUMMON EIDOLON VI
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As Summon Eidolon I, except the Eidolon has the statistics of a 11th level Eidolon, 36hp and 15 evolution Points.

SUMMON EIDOLON VII
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 7, Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As Summon Eidolon I, except the Eidolon has the statistics of a 13th level Eidolon, 40hp and 17 evolution Points.

SUMMON EIDOLON VIII
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 7, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As Summon Eidolon I, except the Eidolon has the statistics of a 15th level Eidolon, 44hp and 20 evolution Points.

SUMMON EIDOLON IX
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Summoner 7, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As Summon Eidolon I, except the Eidolon has the statistics of a 17th level Eidolon, 52hp and 22 evolution Points.

Im pretty impressed with your generosity. Youre a good guy Mikaze!

You don't dodge arrows. You make yourself difficult to aim at.

im pretty sure that if your "dodge" bonus to Ac makes your Ac high enough that youre missed... that you could be said to have "dodged" it.

archers have to deal with cover, concealment, penalties for shooting into melee, provoking AoOs with every attack, the inability to make AoO's, arrow deflecton, arrow catching shields, and the permanent threat of wind wall making you pointless. it takes at least 6 feats to be just on par with "hitting a guy with a club", feats that could be used making a build that dual wields clubs and gets as many/more attacks than said bow build.

My recent foray into chemistry has brought me to a greater understanding of how the real world works, but has made certain aspects of PFRPG harder to handwave away. For example, does the acid splash spell hurl a ball of sulfuric acid or nitric acid? Is acid fog a cloud of oleum or spiritus salis? Most breath weapons are probably hydrochloric acid simply due to biological compatibility, but a very wide range of potential acids could be at work when discussing living systems.

-Acid damage, put simply, is CHEMICAL damage.

And now that I think about it, electricity damage and fire damage are both just heat, right?

-Electricity damage is damage caused by conductivity. It does (slightly) different things than fire damage would, and interacts with the environment in different ways, so the distinction is useful.

The types of energy damage are just like the types of physical damage. Bludgeoning, slashing and piercing can be caused by any number of things, and the actual cause doesnt do anything but dictate the damage type. You just categorize the damage into where it fits best.

You can't really playtest the gunslinger class without talking about the firearms rules. I find it a bad move from the devs not to allow playtesting of the firearms rules as part of the gunslinger playtest.

Very true. I believe that the new firearm rules were conceived separately from the gunslinger class, and probably before they planned to make one. Most likely, they arent up for playtest or discussion because they have already been printed in the Inner Sea World guide.

I dont think this should prohibit them from updating or revising them in Ultimate combat however, and really wish they were open for playtest.

I abhor the current firearms rules especially the touch attack part since this makes guns the best choice against 90% of all monsters at short range and doesn't make any sense in a historical perspective.

Neither Bows, Nor crossbows work in any similarity to historically accurate, and the game punishes you for using a spear, which was THE most common weapon throughout history.

I think with the low damage output, and inability to fire more than once per round, compared to how ARCHERY DOMINATES with its full attack DPS, that even with the touch attacks, many many many things are better against monsters at short range. Besides, you better hope that shot kills it, because Werewolves "aint no joke".

Realism may be important to some, but this is a game, and the objective of a game you cant win is FUN. If its not fun, then its not working.

IMO I think they should just remove the touch attack and misfire rules and divide the cost of guns by ten. Then they would be just fine and reasonably balanced against other weapons.

I wouldnt mind misfire if it wasnt a tax on the action economy made by a weapon that is already the HIGHEST action tax i can think of, in the game. There are many spells that require full round casting, but not many of them have as little pay off as a single firearm shot.

If nothing else, cost of ammunition should be reduced, somehow. Since we cant alter the cost as written, i think that players should be able to produce their own ammunition, and possibly purchase and repair broken firearms at a discount.

Firearms are very expensive, and i think they should include optional pricing charts that show pricing based on how common they are in the area.

If they do have to keep some special rules, change the touch AC thing to an attack against flat-footed AC within short range, making guns a great weapon for rogues (Pirates) and allowing creatures with uncanny dodge the ability to "dodge bullets". This also fixes the whole deadly aim issue with guns at short range. If the misfire rules are absolutely necessary then the gunslinger at least should ignore them.

That would make them THE best weapon for rogues, and every rogue from now on , proficient or not, would open combat with a gunshot for guaranteed SA damage. But again, FIREARMS ARENT OPEN FOR PLAYTEST, so the classes that use them have to patch the problems present in the rules.

I also find it silly that the deflect arrows and snatch arrows feats work against guns.

this is silly. D20 Modern had ballistic damage, and treated firearms as separate from other missile weapons. Pathfinder should do the same. Sine they updated Rapid Reload, maybe they will update these feats as well?

One of the biggest things that bother me about the playtest is that i feel mistakes were made that have been corrected elsewhere.

The alchemist doesnt have to carry explosives or worry about his bombs detonating in his bag, or hand. Why do gunslingers have to worry about misfire or explosion? Why do i need a sackful of black powder!?

For years, people saw crossbows as useless, due to the high reload time. The Crossbow Mastery feat is the fix paizo came up with for this: letting people full attack and not need to spend actions to reload.

My houserule with the 3.5 pathfinder firearms has been:
Firearms work EXACTLY LIKE CROSSBOWS, and any feat that would work with a crossbow, work with an equivalent firearm.
Light crossbows = pistols, or any one handed firearm.
heavy crossbows = rifles, or any two handed firearm.

Voila, firearms are at least as good as horrible crossbows. :]

Basically, across most iterations of the weapons, they're expensive heavy crossbows that requires feats and expensive ammo. Weapons themselves, I'm keen on dropping the damage die a level and adding one; 1d6 becomes 2d4. I'm also keen on exploding dice. I'm crunching numbers now, but that bump in damage could offset reload times.

All this is beside the point, since we cant hope for a change in the actual firearm rules, and what the playtest is going for is a "class side" fix for the crappy firearm rules. Still, i dont mind discussing your house rule.

I use This Website for calculating average damage
Average damage on a 1d6 weapon with a x4 crit is 3.824
Average damage on a 2d4 weapon with a x4 crit is 5.462
So thats an increase, per shot, of barely 2 points? Bringing Deadly Aim back into the mix alone would do more than that, and scale with level. It would cost some to hit, though. Id favor something like letting the Gunslinger get his Dex to damage on the first shot of the round.

Exploding dice are ok, but also highly conditional and do wonky things to probability, not to mention how much extra time it takes to roll all that damage, and how unlikely you are to get it when you need it. I despise them.

I'm also for gunslinger attacks that effectively consume ammo for special shots and abilities; flavor it as special blends of powder, ways to pack the weapons, etc. With all of the talk about ranger builds as opposed to fighter builds, I'm looking at the spells rangers get and seeing what could be done to put special attacks on par with spells of similar levels.

This is more cinematic than anything else, and would probably have more of a place in a prestige class than in the 20 level class. That said, i don't so much mind the status effects the gunslinger can toss around, which is part of why i favor widening the crit threat range to allow for the use of more critical hit feats.

3.824 is the average damage of both a 1d6 x4 weapon AND a 1d6 18-20x2 weapon, but the second would allow for using the critical hit feats much much more often.

1. Widen the skill selection and up the base skill points per level. The current skill selection is too low to play swashbuckler-infiltrator archetypes. Maybe adding stealth to the skills list won't force players into multi classing just to complete what could be a basic archetype of the class. Whip as a proficient weapon a plus.

Its an Alternate fighter, so dont expect too much of that sort of thing from it. I also doubt very much that there will be no "firearm using" archetypes for other classes.

I do, however, think it needs perception.

2. A gun costs 11gp per shot for a chance to break and do mediocre damage most of the time.

This situation Infuriates me, since in the 3.5 rules for the Golarion setting, firearms only used bullets (no mention of powder) and they were 1gp for TEN shots.

3. The gunslinger is not a damage dealer. This in itself isn't bad, as most of his abilities seem geared towards controlling foes from a distance ( tripping foes, entangling, etc) but his ability to exert that control is highly limited. He needs more grit. Perhaps along the lines of 3+wis like the cleric, or half his level plus wisdom like lay-on-hands?

I do think he needs more grit, but another alternative is increasing his grit recovery, like allowing it to refuel one point each time he reloads, or lowering the crit multiplier to increase his crit threat. This would open up the option of using many of the critical feats.

4. Nothing wows me about the firearm, yet there is a class completely devoted to it's use. As an enthusiast, I'm left wanting more. As some on the board have mentioned, many of the class features just fix the rules problems with the weapon. If the weapon is so slow to load, expensive to use, and has a chance of breaking, there needs to be a compelling reason for me to want to use this beyond liking the concept, otherwise at some point in a campaign I'm going to feel like a tool for not playing a ranger. X4 crit is somewhat enticing, but not worth the drawbacks. Now something truly eye-popping like x6 crit makes me want to put up with all the trouble this weapon is going to give me. Or bring back exploding dice.

I just think the Firearms need a wider critical threat, and lower crit multipliers. That could, theoretically, make guns THE weapon for a critical hit specialist. Give em all 18-20 x2, and suddenly im loading up on status effect feats.

READER: before you tell me that the firearm rules arent up for playtest, read my thread. This is primarily to show the differences between the new firearm rules, and the old ones, to help identify problems with the rules and find ways that the Gunslinger can work around the ruleset it is shackled to. I do suggest that if the reason they arent up for playtest is becuase it is too late to alter them as printed for the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide , that the Designers at least consider offering alternate rules in Ultimate Combat, which we are play-testing now.

3.5
Pistol: 1400gp Dmg:1d6 Crit:x2 Range:60ft Reload:MoveAction
Musket: 1800gp Dmg:1d8 Crit:x3 Range:90ft Reload:FullRound
Bullets: 1gp for 10bullets, no mention of black powder
optional: misfire rules, exploding dice
No rapid reload feat without house rule

Playtest
Pistol: 1000gp Dmg:1d8 Crit:x4 Range:20ft Reload:Standard
Musket: 1500gp Dmg:1d12 Crit:x4 Range:40ft Reload:FullRound
Bullets: 1gp per bullet
Black Powder: 10gp per shot
Misfire Mandatory, rapid reload reduces to Move/Standard

CHANGES:
-made rapid reload usable with firearms(at first i though, YAY!)
but then
-Greatly increased reload times (it only takes a single move action to reload a single shot pistol in 3.5. Now, it takes a Standard. why would you do that? Even with rapid reload, your rate of fire is far below what it was with the previous ruleset, and rapid reload is mandatory here, or the class is unplayable! This is a feat tax! Damage per round relies on actually being able to attack!)

-The new rules slightly increased average base damage (1-2pts, only matters when you critical, really, and since your reload times are crap, and your damage output is crap, this is insignificant)

-slightly reduced weapon cost (not enough to be significant)
and then they
-increased price per shot more than x11 (what!? Firearms were already cost prohibitive, and now instead of just paying 1/10gp per shot, im paying 11gp per shot. Why would i do that? Even from a setting standpoint, it would be cheaper to hire a dozen or more hirelings with bows than to fire my gun ONCE.)

-make you carry explosives (you guys made a deliberate effort to NOT do this to the alchemist, and also made a deliberate effort to cut the cost-of-entry barrier to that class. Now im paying 10gp per shot to be a walking powder-keg. I dont understand why you would do the opposite here.)
and then they
-made misfire mandatory (what!? why! There is no misfire on an alchemists bomb, a ninjas poison, or chance that a crossbow or bow will just break during regular use! BUT WORSE! If it misfires again before i can fix it, it explodes, and many dm's will likely rule that this detonates the walking powderkeg that is my character. This makes every gun virtually a CURSED ITEM. Backbiter Spear much?)

-Reduced range drastically (which rules out sniping)
so they could
-made them touch attacks (which would be cool, but it ruins deadly aim, which is the major source of ranged damage now, other than the specialization, and the fighter's weapon training.)

-eliminates exploding dice optional rule (this is good house keeping)
so they could
-increased critical multiplier to x4 (which sounds nice, but in pathfinder, increased critical multipliers aren't worth nearly as much as critical threat ranges,specially with the critical feats, and a higher multiplier does very little for average damage output. Thats why everyone uses scimitars and no one uses scythes. Whats worse, the Gunslinger refuels grit on a critical, and tries to be a controller, which is synergistic with the critical feats, so you would think he would focus on a weapon with a higher critical threat than multiplier.)

As written, the firearm rules are just horrible, and playtesting the Gunslinger with these rules is difficult mostly because of the flaws of the rules as written.

HOWEVER SINCE THEY ARENT FOR PLAYTEST, here are my suggestions on a few ways that the Gunslinger, and any other firearm using archetypes can work around the flaws of the rules:

-gunslingers shouldnt have to deal with misfire at all. (They should get an ability similar to poison use so that any firearm they use has no risk of misfire. Maybe restrict it to firearms they are familiar with, or masterwork firearms only.)

-gunslingers should be able to produce their own black powder (Maybe just a craft alchemy check? Or craft gunsmithing? Or something to the effect of assuming that he has the "material components" of his not-as-good-as-magic-missile ability to fire a gun? This would help deal with the cost-per-shot. It should also be explicitly stated that black powder is like an alchemists bombs, and inert when not loaded in a firearm. I dont care about realism here, i care about playability.)

-damage per round should be addressed
(There are two basic ways to do this: increase damage output to compensate for low rate of fire, using a feat or class ability to do so, or reduce reload times to give a higher rate of fire.
There is no reason that Gun training couldnt be rewritten to have a higher damage yield, to compensate with the loss of deadly aim.
Alternately, you just grant rapid reload to the gunslinger, with an addendum that reduces his reload times even further, or increases the number of slots of capacity filled with each action, like if a single move action could reload two slots of capacity.
A third option is to give the gunslinger a feat similar to power attack, but instead of reducing BAB to increase damage, he could reduce crit multiplier to increase damage, or crit threat. This stretches out of precedent however.)

None of what ive mentioned deals with the problems inherent to the gunslinger class (low grit, poor deeds) which likely, should be its own class and not an alternate fighter.

This thread only illustrates problems that arise due to the rules themselves, and suggests a few work-around that would be needed for any class that focused on firearms.

So thats it. I look forward to discussion.

On the point of damage dealing what does an average 12th level fighter deal?

In our 12th level playtest the gunslinger avereged 100 points a round we thought that was pretty solid damage

i assume youre using the grit lighting reload trick that opens up at level 11, because without it, theres NO way you could average that much damage without dealing damage every single round, which cant be done without the "mandatory option" of lighting reload cheese.

Ive played final fantasy and tactics

you must have really Hated Mustadio then. He even had the "targeting specific body parts" trope the gunslinger has.

I think guns are perfectly welcome in fantasy; however i dont think that, without major changes, that very many people will play a "gunslinger" more than a session or two, ever.

O! curs'd device! base implement of death!
Fram'd in the black Tartarean realms beneath!
By Beelzebub's malicious art design'd
To ruin all the race of human kind.
-Aristo on Gunpowder.

I can't stand the thought of having guns with Sword and magic, I think it ruins the game.

Many people feel this way about Psionics, The Monk, Ninjas, Katanas, Samurai, Steampunk Elements, Swashbuckling in general....

That doesnt mean that the rest of us shouldnt have access to rules that would allow us to dabble in Genre-mixing just because you, and your group, dont like something.

There are many many groups out there who are sensitive about using Demons or Internals in their games because of religious connotations. That doesnt mean i shouldnt have Fiends in my bestiary. There are groups out there who have a hard line about not using Alignment, or whole heatedly believe that Paladin is a flawed class and concept.

Your preferences and opinions have no bearing on defining what should and should not be considered fantasy.

I know they are very early stages of guns but imagining someone not in heavy armor getting shot a few times and still fighting takes whatever realism there is in fantasy away.

Realism =/= Fantasy.

And im not even talking about magic, or about how in a world with drgons, there would be no castles; only bunkers. Im talking about how I can full attack guy with arrows, literally filling him with them. I love archers, and have made Greater-manyshot full-attack builds with a splitting bow, allowing me to crap an obscene number of arrows... and STILL see the thing live.

The reality is this: Gunpowder was created in the 9th or 10th century, and the musket finally showed up about the 14th century, contemporaneous with the katana, but predated by cannons, rockets, mines, all sorts of things. The Chinese used rockets, bombs, cannons, and primitive firearms to repel the Mongols, who eventually conquered China and used the same type of weapons against the Japanese. All this was in the 12th century.

Gunpowder predates complex clockwork, steam engines, telescopes, glass mirrors, even the friggin BUTTONHOLE, which wasnt even invented until the 13th century.

And i sure hope you dont have any Proper sailing ships in your setting, because those are waaaaaaaay past the technology level that would forbid firearms.

I know if I don't want to use it I don't have to, I just think something like this should stay out of one of the core books. Why not put out a book called 'Firearms' or something, the people that want it will buy it. I know I can't be alone, everyone in my group doesn't want anything to do with it. I hope they reconsider.

Golarion has included firearms since its creation. Alkenstar didnt just all out of the sky. The 3rd edition Core Dungeon Master's Guide had Firearm rules. Many of us have included firearms all along.

I want pirates with canons and flintlocks. I want kung fu masters. I want ninjas and samurai. I want psionic villains. I want Lovecraftian horrors. I want demons, and goblins that eat babies. I want Multidimensional invaders. I want steam powered goblin-clockwork death mecha.

Mark Twain once said that "Censorship is telling a Man he cant have steak because a baby cant chew it."

There is absolutely no reason why any publisher any where should curtail to your preferences when there is an audience for certain content in a book you dont even have to use anyway.

Censor yourself, and dont try and decide what is right or fun or defines "fantasy" for anyone else.

-----------------------------------------
EDIT: after rereading my post, i realized it became a rant. Its nothing personal, i just disagree with your sentiment, and see it often, so maybe i vented some of my frustration with it on you. Sorry.

Welcome to the forums. >.<

i think its would be ever reasonable instead of giving a lvl 1 pc 1000gp

items as they start off, to let the gunslinger class abilities also apply to crossbows. this would make the class more class open to pcs whose dm dont allow guns in there games or have low gold games and could not pay for the ammo

hand crossbow = pistol

light crossbow and heavy crossbow = musket

Personally, i treat firearms as crossbows for ALL PURPOSES, except that i simply house-ruled that there is an equivalent firearm feat for every crossbow feat. Longarms are equivalent to heavy crossbows, and One handed firearms are like light crossbows. To dual wield pistols, i required something similar to monkey grip, since they are flipping hand cannons, not the light pistols of today.

Dual Wielding weapons that are not light weapons, and have high reload time is so bad it is basically a non-option.

The Damage output of the class suffers because of three things:
-base damage being so low
-drought of feat and ability based damage enhancement
-a low "rate of attack" due to high reload time, capacity, and cost prohibition of keeping additional pre-loaded weapons.

Play-test friendly Options for solving these problems are:
-additional feat or class ability "damage boosters"
-opening up some of the archery or crossbow feats for use with firearms.
-offering a "cost" chart based on how common firearms are in a region, possibly.
-Possibly, give the class a firearm repair ability, and say any firearm with the "broken" status buys/sells at half cost. This helps firearm focused characters purchase things at a lower rate.

Personally, i favor enhancing "damage/payoff" per shot over increasing the rate of fire. While many people dont like the called-shot-like mechanic, i think that the ability to gain some utility from each shot is a viable alternative from additional damage. (Status effects, or eve combat maneuvers at a range)

However, increasing the rate of fire by lowering reload time should be an option, over damage or utility. It would put it more in line with the other weapons, but basically demand that the weapons no longer be ranged touch.

Personally, i treat firearms as crossbows for ALL PURPOSES, except that i simply house-ruled that there is an equivalent firearm feat for every crossbow feat. Longarms are equivalent to heavy crossbows, and One handed firearms are like light crossbows. To dual wield pistols, i required something similar to monkey grip, since they are flipping hand cannons, not the light pistols of today.

Its safe to assume that there will be firearm using Archetypes for other classes in the future, and establishing a sweeping rule like this would give a lot of mileage toward directing future supplements.

(for the record, i think rogues, rangers, bards, alchemists and inquisitors need a grit-archetype.)

At first glance I notice that the gunslinger would take a -4 penelty to attack with two pistols, I think he should get the ability to treat the gun his offhand as a light weapon

Since Firearms are ranged touch attacks within the first range increment, i don't think -4 is that punitive, since you'll be targeting lower AC's in general anyway.

Additionally, your character wont be using weapons with a "capacity" of more than 1 for a while anyway, so the frequent reloading will make dual wielding a poor choice for any round beyond the first anyway, which is to say this:

Optimal: drawing a firearm with quick-draw, firing it, dropping it and drawing another, and firing it etc until you're out of attacks. Now spend a standard action(or move i think, with rapid reload) per pistol to reload. This is already way way way worse than archery, or even, really, a crossbow with rapid reload.

Suboptimal: taking the above, but instead drawing two pistols, firing, dropping two pistols and drawing two more, firing them, etc until out of attacks. Sounds tempting, i agree.

What youre looking at is a much higher rate of fire, but a higher entry level to even do this, since pistols are VERY expensive, and the reload time is obscene. You dont want to decrease your chance to hit even more, and increase the time youll be out of the fight by even more.

I guess what im saying is that i think the increased cost of multiple pistols, and the amount of time it will take to reload make dual wielding pistols such a poor option that i dont see much reason to do it.

BUT WHEN THERE ARE REVOLVERS.........

Trap Design and Construction: I find the rules on designing and constructing traps to be a little vague or confusing.....As a GM I can eyeball things (kind of like monster advancement) but I had a wizard PC interested in being a trap builder but gave up on it because there was so much gray area.

This, 1000x this. Traps are a major part of dungeon and encounter design, and clarification of the rules for them would be wonderful, ESPECIALLY for the PC side of things. I dont even care if pc-created traps have radically different rules, they need to be there. In 3.5, there were a couple trapsmith classes, and the ability to bring traps into combat on the fly or with a little preptime is wonderful.

I think that the crux of the problem is the attempt to tack it onto existing tables. It would probably cut back on the complexity if you either just had a new class for this system, or abandoned the idea of using existing tables in the core rulebook at all.

Just make a few "words known, words per day" charts, and say "rangers and paladins use this one, bards use the second one, clerics, druids and wizards use the third and sorcerers use the last." (though i would leave out any class that isnt a full caster) Attempting to use existing charts automatically increases the number of effect words needed, and increases complexity far beyond what just adding an additional chart would.

In fact, honestly, making it a tack-on system at all increases the amount of support you have to provide for it in the future, as every new class, prestige class or archetype will have to work with the system.

If a new adventure path wants to introduce a new word, it may very well have to introduce a whole word family. However, if you use Ravenot's suggestion of sliding scale words, and my suggestion of just using new charts and forgetting the old ones, you cut back on complexity considerably.

Not only do I run Binders from Tome of Magic, but i also use them in conjunction with "secrets of pact magic", a third party book that expands on the concept and system.

From a similar thread on the old wotc boards:

So I know that there's no official errata. At least no completed one, but someone told me that Richard Baker, the person behind ToB, had said that after having the book published, there were a few things he would have liked to have seen changed.

I personally have not seen a quote from him, like I had Mike Mearls and the Hexblade, so verification, and/or a link to what he had listed would be most appreciated.

This is what I found:

Rich Baker suggested after publishing the book what to do in 3.5. Namely no recharge in battle, and crusaders have readied maneuvers the same as the other two. There were other suggestions as well though.

General: No recharge mechanic. You use up all of your readied maneuvers in an encounter, that's it, you wait until next encounter. This one was suggested by Rich Baker himself, stating that the recharge mechanic in retrospect seems like a clunky add on, and it undermines resource management.

Crusaders: Your readied maneuvers are no different than anyone else's. No "two maneuvers randomly chosen" to start. Again, this one was suggested by Rich Baker, who said that this was the "automatic recharge" mechanic for the crusader, and it turned out to make the class more complicated than it needs to be.

Warblade: Hit dice move back down to d10. These guys are suppose to be technique fighters, and while they are front line warriors, there is no need for them to be the damage sponges that barbarians and knights are, because its not really their purpose.

Cut out Weapon Aptitude as an ability. Not only does this not make much sense, but it intentionally steals the fighters only real exclusive ability, and then makes it better. If Warblades are suppose to replace fighters in your campaign, fine, but if they both exist, let the fighter have his moment in the sun and cut this out of the Warblade.

As for the scythe-monk if your DM allows 3.x stuff there is a f@@&ing awesome(a little OP)5 level prestige class for monks that specializes in scythes but i cant remember the name

I don't believe a scythe monk works. Mainly because scythe is not a monk weapon and you won't be able to flurry with it.

Im a little annoyed because it appears neither of you read my original post. Wild captain, i mention the PRC youre talking about in my post, its in dragon 299 and called REAPERS CHILD. The other prestige classes you suggested are all Homebrew classes from the D&D wiki. -___-

Jon, i say in my original post that im using a KI FOCUS scythe so that it counts as a monk weapon, and i also mention the prc wild captain was trying to remember, that lets you use scythes as monk weapons anyway.

First people digress into an argument over how a feat works, and then the replies i do get didnt even read my whole post :\

I miss the Wotc boards :\

First: I have no idea why i even mention dastardly finish, it requires 5d6 sneak attack to get and im POSITIVE i was thinking about Freezing the Lifeblood, which causes paralysis with a similar mechanic to Stunning fist.

Since the "paralyzed" Coupe De Grace angle seems to be a lot harder to accomplish than i had thought, Does anyone have any suggestions for how to optimize the concept of a SCYTHE monk? Is it just silly and something i shouldnt bother trying? Does anything synergize well with Hungry Ghost that im not thinking of?

-Hungry Ghost Monk Variant from pathfinder, mostly for flavor, with the ability to knock prone, and on kills steal ki, and/or steal hp
it loses stunning fist,
-Take Stunning fist as a feat, since you traded it for the ability to knock prone. If you could pick and choose parts of variants we wouldnt have to do this, but an alternate class feature set isnt modular. Anyway stunning is pretty important to this build so anything that ups the save on that is key.
-Rapid Stunning is important, so you can extend the duration of your stun by more than one round through Multiple Attempts, and Pharaoh Fist (sandstorm) makes it effect adjacent targets, so if you use it once on one guy with one attack, and once on the guy beside him with a second attack, they are both stunned twice, with the chance to extend the duration of both. Also, other feats like Ability Focus: Stunning Fist will be needed.
-Youll want a Ki-Focus Scythe asap, as ki focus will let you flurry with it. with the +1 and the ki focus ability, itll be the price of a +2 weapon. We want the scythe for its critical.
-Dastardly Finish: this is where the build comes together. This is a feat from Pathfinders advanced players guide that lets you Coup De Grace Stunned or Shaken Opponents. Death Blow from the Players Handbook two lets you Coup De Grace opponents as a standard action. Since CDG is nothing but an autocrit with a save vs damage dealt, a high critical multiplier weapon is key, hence the scythe with its x4. Plus, more attacks means more chances to critical, and when it comes to attacks, monks have the most.

This Build has a LOT of problems, i know. One is that its a MONK BUILD, and another is that it depends on the target failing a fortitude save, which at high levels is laughable. Also, it depends too heavily on a single weapon, but i suppose that it isnt necessary to have a Scythe, its just flavorful with Hungry Ghost monk and the Coup De Grace motief.

Another problem i am having is that i had visualized this as a Lawful Evil build, and MOST of the feats or prestige classes or whatever that enhance your stunning fist also require you to be GOOD. For example: Touch of Golden Ice (BoED): Evil enemies hit with unarmed or natural attacks must Save (DC 14 Fort) or take 1d6 Dex damage. Lowering Dexterity would be a great way to get CDG, but that dc 14 save and good requirement are both rough on the build.

PRC'S
Reapers Child from Dragon 299 was what i was originally trying to build, and a one level dip into it would let me flurry with a scythe. The least level of it gives you a death effect, so thats fun too, but overall i think i could do without the class. Maybe kensai? Assassin? Are there any good monk prc's that advance flurry, or enhance stunning but aso give you something that would help with Coup De Grace?

Anyway, any suggestions on how to help this build out?

In pathfinder, Monks have a ki pool, much like the 3.5 ninja did. In complete scoundrel there is a feat that allows monk and ninja to stack for unarmed damage and ki pool, but since this was intended for the 3.5 monk which didnt have a ki pool, in the example of how it works it only enhances the ninjas ki pool.

My question is this: knowing that the ninja and monk's ki pools were not DESIGNED to be used together, would it unbalanced to say that if you have taken this feat, you can use your monk ki pool to fuel ninja abilities, and the ninja ki pool to fuel monk abilities?

honestly, id build one from scratch using the "zen archer" monk as a base, and tossing out everything else that doesnt meet the flavor. Still, id use the Ki system, and alter some of the abilities to remove unarmed damage. Maybe choose at first level if you want Flurry of blows or the weapon group ability fighters get, but with firearms.

ALL I KNOW IS THAT THIS ADVENTURE PATH NEEDS ONE THING ABOVE ALL OTHERS:

plague doctors (possibly as an alchemist variant)

If you've got an idea for a new Magus Arcana, this is the place to put them.

Maybe ranged spellstrikes? I can see why it would be a balance issue, so maybe put a range limit on it, or delay access to it until after one could have entered arcane archer?

this class is much better than what i expected!
Still i had hoped to be able to make a ranged combat magus, and specifying melee attacks makes that impossible, though it does balane the class more, is suppose.

Perhaps there should be a Magus Arcana ability tree to permit spell use coupled with ranged combat?

I am trying to get this pdf and it just keeps going to the downloads section and not letting me download. Are there still problems with the upload of it?

while i am glad that it was updated, my download hasnt worked yet either. I think there is likely still a technical issue.

I did get a notification email saying it was updated though, and it said that the update description provided was this:

"Updated monsters to Pathfinder rule system"

I hope the update did more than just this, since several feats (Arcane rage,bane of evil,blessed touch, and channel divine healing) were not pathfinder compatible.

The thing that is really bothering me though, is that your description is still so inaccurate.

untrue:
- New equipment, weapons and magic items
- Highly detailed regions and history, with new organizations to launch your campaign
omitted:
- requires use of the 3.5 expanded psionics handbook

Is there just a fluff version of this? I am not interested in a rules heavy version since I don't play/run 3E or 4E. So if you guys did a fluff heavy version for a rules lighter RPG I am interested in knowing about it.

I lold. If you trimmed this book down to fluff only, youd have maybe 10 pages, most of which is just a timeline. The book is like, 165 pages of written material, and id say maybe 5% of that or so is fluff.

* 8 new races usable as player characters or NPCs

* Over 100 new feats, over 140 new spells and 6 new prestige classes
* New equipment, weapons and magic items
* New monsters and monster templates

All that is true, except there are no new weapons, or equipment as far as i could tell. Im not even sure i saw any magic items? Can someone tell me if i am wrong? A page number?

* Highly detailed regions and history, with new organizations to launch your campaign

Aside from a timeline, the rest is Patently False^^ No information on regions is included, especially not "Highly detailed" information, and i dont recall seeing any organizations, though i guess its possible that they consider prestige classes information on organizations.

Still, LPJ has implied that there is an updated version coming out, and while i only expect it to remedy the compatibility issues, maybe it will have more information as well!

Kadeity wrote:

You compare it to the Pathfinder Gazetteer, which is fully pathfinder compatible, has few to no typos, and being supported by Paizo, i am sure it will be or already has been updated with errata. How long has Obsidian Twilight been out?

We updated Obsidian Twilight at Lulu, RPGNow and Paizo. Have you not recieved an updated version yet?

No sir i have not. I redownloaded the one listed in my downloads on paizo, and jumped straight to the monsters, which are still using Grapple bonuses, so i assume it isnt the updated version.

What exactly has changed in the new update?

Also, Perhaps you should update the description to remove any mention of "regions" since this product describes none, and maybe add that the product features Psionics, Just in the spirit of accuracy.

If I wanted to run this campaign in 3.5 would it work?

Yes and no. The setting is (mostly) designed for pathfinder, so youd need to be familiar enough with pathfinder to convert a lot of it backwards. However, the psionics rules that are present use the 3.5 rules, the races are virtually indistinguishable from 3.5 races, the spells could mostly be used as is, though i suggest an item by item review before you just say "all of these are kosher" because of some balance issues. The monsters are, other than skills, indistinguishable from 3.5 monsters.

The Prestige classes dont have full caster progression, and use mostly pathfinder rules, so they need some conversion and maybe tune up for balance purposes. A good rule of thumb for creating a prestige class is to make sure class abilities are worth what caster levels you lose, and that what abilities you gain are Effective Character Level appropriate based on the level you would gain them entering the PRC As soon as you can. Most of the PRC's in this supplement dont do that and you end up trading too much for too little. Giving them all full caster progression can alleviate some of that, as well as giving slightly earlier entry, but thats up to the person doing the conversion/homebrew since that isnt how they are written.

The feats, with exceptions i noted earlier in the thread, are pathfinder feats, so they would need to be reviewed one at a time, and converted.

Basically, the supplement appears to be a 3.5 supplement that was converted hastily to pathfinder, so and experienced DM could probably use it in 3.5 with a bit of work, yes.

a two star review from __________ (who I believe is Kadeity)

I consider it bad form to post someones personal information on a public website just because they gave you a bad review. In the context of your post there is no reason to even attempt to post my real name. If you recall public outcry against Blizzard for suggesting that they link real life names to Forum posts.

Consider this me respectfully asking you once to edit your post to delete all mention of my name, and to not repeat this action in the future.

One of the things that I especially appreciate about Super Genius is that if any of us find discrepancies, typos, or errors in their products, they jump on it. Even Adamant corrected their Tome of Secrets pretty quick after getting fan feedback.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

The real advantage that both Super Genius and Admant have on LPJ Design is that these are full times jobs for those involved, while LPJ Design is a part business for me. But I take full responsibility for what happened and it was an oversight on my part. Feel free to contact me directly his you would like me to rectify this situation. Once again thank you for your support.

LPJ, im not sure why you think i have something personal against you, but if you recall i DID contact you directly, with an extended version of my review, addressing and itemizing several of the specific issues, telling you that you should really address these before putting your book into print. You sent me a standardized reply, and then a few days later, you put your book, errors were included, into print at LULU.com

Heres the thing LPJ. Ive been a displeased customer from the start, and contacted you several times, hoping for you to "rectify this situation" and i have been met with contempt, you displaying my name publicly on the facebook comments of other publishers and now here.

I do like Obsidian Twilight, i just think that maybe you should have done some better editing, and aquire better customer service skills, because honestly, the only personal issue i have with you at all is how you have dealt with me on this issue, start to finish.

I work full time also, but you know, if you want it, i can compile a list of errors for you, or you can just crowd-source it and start a playtest thread, and then at the end, use what youve learned to fix the pdf that you are hoping will be the core of a new product line.

Just got it a while back and was finally able to sit and do some reading, aside from before mentioned issues, where's the map for the setting?

There is no map, no nations, nothing like that. I remedied it, personally, by looking at the setting as more of a "template setting" than a stand alone setting. For example, take the timeline, and apply it all to Ebberon, and ask yourself "how would this all effect the setting", or do what i plan to do, and Run the "Second Darkness" adventure path with full intention of the pc's failing to stop the meteor, and of running "Obsidian Twilight: Golarion" as your next setting.

For those who have the Pathfinder-compatible supp, what's the word?

I gave it a 2/5 only because the potential it has isnt exploited fully, and it stumbles over compatibility errors and balance issues. While balance issues are a matter of opinion, compatibility issues really arent. I could elaborate but ive already said a lot, the point is that its a good product waiting to happen. With a little elbow grease, it can be used, but there is a good bit of work that needs to be done to it. Whenever LPJ gets time to edit the raw document and address some of the issues in it, i will likely revisit my review, and i am still using the product in the mean time, albeit heavily houseruled and modified.

The reason i even chose to post this review was because it seemed everyone was on a united front saying the product was top notch, and so i bought it, only to find that there was very little i felt(in my opinion) was balanced enough to use in actual gameplay. I was really disappointed, and so i emailed LPJ directly, which got me nowhere. So i posted this review, so that at least other people will be able to make an informed decision.

The short version of what i had hoped to convey in my review: Lots of potential, very interesting setting, great art, but not enough usable rules text to justify the pricetag, unless you REALLY like art, and REALLY like homebrewing, or just plain dont care about balance since youre running a Pathinder/3.5-gestalt-ignore-level-adjustments-game anyway. If thats the case, pick it up, its the product for you.

In the mean time, ill be waiting on the errata, so it can be the product for me.

The only pathfinder official rules for firearms are in the 3.5 version of the Golarion Campaign Setting.

Ok on this one point I cannot stay quiet, and I will passionately disagree and defend LPJ.

If you look at Paizo's Pathfinder Chronicle Gazetteer which is a 69 page PDF; it prices out at just under .19 cents per page, while when I look at this book at 168 pages prices out it prices out at just under .10 a page.

Oh i agree, the book is beautiful, and the concept is novel, and if there were more fluff in the actual book than rules text it might not be such a big deal that the rules text isn't fully pathfinder compatible, or balanced, or that it breaks from pathfinder design goals in several places. But that's not what the book is; what it is is a BEAUTIFUL ball of potential that was slapped together with what i honestly believe was either not enough play testing, or none at all.

I can elaborate, but the point i am trying to make here is not that PDF's should never be 15$, its that art alone cant make a pdf worth 15$. You compare it to the Pathfinder Gazetteer, which is fully pathfinder compatible, has few to no typos, and being supported by Paizo, i am sure it will be or already has been updated with errata. How long has Obsidian Twilight been out?

When a new, pathfinder compatible, play tested and well edited Obsidian Twilight comes out, i would even BUY IT AGAIN to give it a second chance, but as it stands i spent 15$ on a pdf filled with overpowered spells, pigeonholed races and underpowered prestige classes with a scant few pages about the actual setting, that IN THE END, isn't even fully pathfinder compatible. AND EVEN IF he updates it to be compatible, he still has psionics rules in there, without a WORD OF WARNING at the point of purchase. Like it or not, Psionics aren't for everyone, and his is something that would effect someones purchase. Something they should be informed of. Whats worse is that Psionics are NOT pathfinder material, which means that he has even violated his Paizo compatibility Publishing License. (though i don't think that Paizo is likely to care)

Price to Value is what Determines if something is overpriced, and at the end of the day, i just didn't see enough material i could use to justify the 15$ price tag. Like i said, if he Updates his PDF with play tested changes to his balance issues, and makes it pathfinder compatible, then ill be happy to revisit this review.

While i love the alchemist, i wish that not every alchemist was a bomb toting roid head, so ive tried to toss together an Alternate class feature for the Alchemist. Still dont have one to replace mutagen, so suggestions are welcome :]

PLAGUE DOCTOR ALCHEMIST
(clearly based on lay on hands, but replaces bombs. I wonder if i should do 1/2class level + int uses per day like lay on hands, or the full class level per day like bombs.)

Healing Salve (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, an Alchemist can Mix a Salve that can heal wounds (his own or those of others) when applied by touch.An alchemist can mix and use a number of Salves each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Mixing and applying a Tonic requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. A Healing Salve is applied as a Melee touch attack that Heals 1d6 points of damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The Healing power of an alchemist’s Salve increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level.
Alternatively, an Alchemist can use salve to deal damage to undead creatures, Dealing damage equal to the amount that the salve would heal a living creature. Using a Healing Salve in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
Alchemists can new types of Salves as discoveries (see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist’s Healing Salve, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else. This ability Replaces the alchemists bomb ability, and poison use.

DISCOVERIES

Least Panacea Salve (Su): Whenever the Alchemist uses a Healing Salve to heal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the Panacea Salve Discoveries known by the Alchemist. A Panacea Salve can remove a condition caused by a curse, disease, or poison without curing the affliction. Such conditions return after 1 hour unless the Salve actually removes the affliction that causes the condition. The alchemist may Initially choose from the following Status Effects to remove:
• Fatigued: The target is no longer fatigued.
• Shaken: The target is no longer shaken.
• Sickened: The target is no longer sickened.
The Alchemist may take this Discovery more than once, each time choosing an additional effect to remove with the Panacea Salve. These abilities are cumulative. For example, a 12th-level Alchemist's Healing Salve heals 6d6 points of damage and might also cure fatigued and exhausted conditions as well as removing diseases and neutralizing poisons. Once a condition or spell effect is chosen, it can't be changed.

Lesser Panacea Salve(Su): As Least Panacea Salve, except the Alchemist may now choose from the Following Status Effects as Well:
• Exhausted: The target is no longer exhausted. The alchemist must have the fatigue salve before selecting this salve.
• Frightened: The target is no longer frightened. The alchemist must have the shaken salve before selecting this salve.
• Nauseated: The target is no longer nauseated. The alchemist must have the sickened salve before selecting this salve.
• Poisoned: The Alchemist's Healing Salve also acts as neutralize poison, using the Alchemist's level as the caster level.
The Alchemist may take this Discovery more than once, each time choosing an additional effect to remove with the Healing Salve.

Greater Panacea Salve(Su): As Least Panacea Salve, except the Alchemist may now choose from the following Status Effects as Well:
• Blinded: The target is no longer blinded.
• Deafened: The target is no longer deafened.
• Paralyzed: The target is no longer paralyzed.
• Stunned: The target is no longer stunned.
The Alchemist may take this Discovery more than once, each time choosing an additional effect to remove with the Healing Salve.

well, beware of APG + complete scoundrel.

For example, a pathfinder rogue with the sniper and scout alternate class features and 3 levels of scout, and the feat that lets skirmish stack with rogue/scout levels....

you end up with someone who gets sneak attack anytime they get skirmish, and the ability to spank with a bow at a range, dealing sneak attack at 30ft + 10ft per 3 levels, and getting skirmish anytime thats inside 30ft, unless he also has the 3.5 feat crossbow sniper, in which case his total range jumps up to 60ft +10ft per level, depending on how the dm sees it.

JINN ALCHEMIST
(the basic idea here is to get rid of the Mutagen/bruiser thing in favor of a middle-eastern elemental alchemy theme, using the Wizard Elemental Specialty schools form the APG. What you end up with, though, is a better caster, which i tried to limit. Im not sure how balanced it is, so any advice on balancing it would be appreciated.)

Elemental Tonic (Su): At 1st level, an alchemist discovers how to create a tonic of elemental essence that he can imbibe in order to heighten his magical prowess at the cost of his personality. It takes 1 hour to brew a dose of Elemental Tonic, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. An alchemist can only maintain one dose of Elemental Tonic at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing Tonic becomes inert. As with an extract or bomb, a mutagen that is not in an alchemist’s possession becomes inert until an alchemist picks it up again. When an alchemist brews an Elemental Tonic, he selects one of the Wizard's four Elemental Specialty Schools, Air, Earth, Fire or Water. It’s a standard action to drink a Tonic. Upon being imbibed, the tonic causes the alchemist to enter a state of elemental attunement, which lasts for 10 minutes per alchemist level. While in this state, the alchemist may nt gain the normal benefits of ant extract, however, whenever the alchemist consumes an extract, he may spontaneously cast a spell of the same level from the Elemental Wizard Specialty to which he is attuned, so long as the spell he is casting is the same level or lower than the extract consumed. Both casting and consuming an extract can be done with the same standard Action. The caster level for spells cast this way is equal to the alchemists level, and save DC's are Intelligence based.

While under the effects of a tonic, the Alchemist takes a -2 penalty to one attribute. When attuned to Air, you take a -2con. When attuned to fire you take a -2 wis. When attuned to earth you take a -2 dex, and when attuned to water you take a -2 cha. A non-alchemist who drinks an Elemental tonic must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour—a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of an Elemental Tonic, but an alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist’s Tonic if he drinks it. (Although if the other alchemist creates a different tonic, the effects of the “stolen” tonic immediately cease.) The effects of a tonic do not stack. Whenever an alchemist drinks a tonic, the effects of any previous tonic immediately end.
This ability replaces the Mutagen ability.

DISCOVERIES:

Favored Attunement: Choose one of the four Elemental Specialty Schools, Air, Earth, Fire, or Water. When you have consumed a tonic to become attuned to this element, you gain one of the two Specialty School Powers for that element.
You may take this discovery multiple times, each time selecting a different school power, or element.

Greater Attunement: Choose one of the four Elements, Air, Earth, Fire, or Water. You may now use the 8th level School Power for that Element. You must be at least 8th level to take this discovery and may only take it for an element for which you have both of the first level powers.

Elemental Immunities: While under the effects of an Elemental tonic you dont need to breathe and gain Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.

While i love the alchemist, i wish that not every alchemist was a bomb toting roid head, so ive tried to toss together a couple Alternate class features for the Alchemist.

PLAGUE DOCTOR ALCHEMIST
(clearly based on lay on hands, but replaces bombs. I wonder if i should do 1/2class level + int uses per day like lay on hands, or the full class level per day like bombs.)

Healing Salve (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, an Alchemist can Mix a Salve that can heal wounds (his own or those of others) when applied by touch.An alchemist can mix and use a number of Salves each day equal to 1/2 his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Mixing and applying a Tonic requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. A Healing Salve is applied as a Melee touch attack that Heals 1d6 points of damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The Healing power of an alchemist’s Salve increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level.
Alternatively, an Alchemist can use salve to deal damage to undead creatures, Dealing damage equal to the amount that the salve would heal a living creature. Using a Healing Salve in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
Alchemists can new types of Salves as discoveries (see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist’s Healing Salve, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else. This ability Replaces the alchemists bomb ability, and poison use.

DISCOVERIES

Least Panacea Salve (Su): Whenever the Alchemist uses a Healing Salve to heal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the Panacea Salve Discoveries known by the Alchemist. A Panacea Salve can remove a condition caused by a curse, disease, or poison without curing the affliction. Such conditions return after 1 hour unless the Salve actually removes the affliction that causes the condition. The alchemist may Initially choose from the following Status Effects to remove:
• Fatigued: The target is no longer fatigued.
• Shaken: The target is no longer shaken.
• Sickened: The target is no longer sickened.
The Alchemist may take this Discovery more than once, each time choosing an additional effect to remove with the Panacea Salve. These abilities are cumulative. For example, a 12th-level Alchemist's Healing Salve heals 6d6 points of damage and might also cure fatigued and exhausted conditions as well as removing diseases and neutralizing poisons. Once a condition or spell effect is chosen, it can't be changed.

Lesser Panacea Salve(Su): As Least Panacea Salve, except the Alchemist may now choose from the Following Status Effects as Well:
• Exhausted: The target is no longer exhausted. The alchemist must have the fatigue salve before selecting this salve.
• Frightened: The target is no longer frightened. The alchemist must have the shaken salve before selecting this salve.
• Nauseated: The target is no longer nauseated. The alchemist must have the sickened salve before selecting this salve.
• Poisoned: The Alchemist's Healing Salve also acts as neutralize poison, using the Alchemist's level as the caster level.
The Alchemist may take this Discovery more than once, each time choosing an additional effect to remove with the Healing Salve.

Greater Panacea Salve(Su): As Least Panacea Salve, except the Alchemist may now choose from the following Status Effects as Well:
• Blinded: The target is no longer blinded.
• Deafened: The target is no longer deafened.
• Paralyzed: The target is no longer paralyzed.
• Stunned: The target is no longer stunned.
The Alchemist may take this Discovery more than once, each time choosing an additional effect to remove with the Healing Salve.

Maybe you haven't had the luxury of having the APG in front of you, but it's filled with crossbow feats, including one that lets you multishot with it.

Im not sure what youre getting at? I have seen the feat, but i dont really see how it changes anything i said really.

i did say "or often, multiple attacks." since generally you wont get many attacks with crossbows, without rapid reload, and even having this feat and getting to make multiple attacks still puts you two feats behind a regular Archer.

Sandman variant for the Bard(apg) + 1 level of Spelltheif (compAdv) + Master Spelltheif Feat (compScndrl) = All the fun spell theft abilities of the sandman, plus stealing spells as a spelltheif of your level.

Scout Variant for the Rogue(apg) + 3 levels of scout (compAdv) + Swift Ambusher Feat(compl Scndrl) = at level 4 rogue (ecl 7) you can get skirmish and sneak attack damage every time you charge. At rogue 8(ecl 11), you can get them both on the first attack of the round anytime you can skirmish.

Any more fun APG/3.5 builds like this?

Hmmm this is very intesting. I have been working on a campaign set in the world of the Dark Tower Series for a long time now.

Have you looked at the Zen Archer Monk variant in the Advanced Players Guide? When i saw it i immediately thought "if this used revolvers instead of a bow, it would be a gunslinger".

Flurry of blows with a bow! Ki powers to make you shoot better! Ignore concealment, cover, and even shoot around corners!!!!

With the guns available in Pathfinder, does anyone see an issue with letting the arcane archer take weapon focus in a firearm instead of a bow for the class and using the gun in it's place?

A good rule of thumb for this sort of thin is to treat firearms like the most similar crossbow to it. If you can do something with a crossbow, you can do it with a firearm. I even allow feats that mention using a crossbow to be usable with a firearm.

There is the issue with someone dual wielding pistols or revolvers but given the fact at higher levels they can only go 2-3 rounds before having to sit out a round or more to reload.

Dual Weilding isnt really an issue. If they attack with both pistols in one round, they have all the disadvantages of dual wielding, plus all the disadvantages of having to reload and use a firearm anyway, not to mention the attack of opportunity usin a firearm will provoke, EACH ATTACK. This is only really even possible with revolvers, and if youre using the Pathfinder Setting firearms, the revolver is the firearm MOST LIKELY to jam, and the most expensive one too boot.

(Wife likes the idea of a gunslinger character enchanting her guns/bullets as the arcane archer but she wants to use gun. Just need to know how balanced this might be or what issues I can expect/should consider)

Like i said, with the pathfinder firearm rules, and treating it like a crossbow, the benefits of using a firearm and getting exploding dice, are balanced out by having to deal with misfire, and not getting STR to damage, or often, multiple attacks.