JakeCWolf's page

It's a colloquial way of marking something when (like now, again, for me), you don't have time to fully look at or comment on it, but you wish to do so later.

Ahhhh... I see. Maybe it's a bit to long to be a considered a short story then? lol

I wish there was more short fiction on here.

Me too, it's a shame. I fear lore and just good story telling in general is at risk of being lost sometimes, mostly when people get to bogged down in rules and systems.

Gallows Tree Executioner. Easy killing of condemned criminals, no mortal guilt from having to pull the lever and easy corpse removal. Zombies can be it's attendants, read the condemned their last rights, ect.

Sure. You can have it be that way. But there is absolutely no reason a mortal race could not have hard coded biological evil nature. Certain behaviors that are just instinctual that fit on the evil spectrum. There is absolutely no reason that every mortal race will experience the same entire moral spectrum as humans or have the same middle set point by nature, even if raised by those who are 'good'.

They are not humans in rubber forehead and ear prosthetics.

Aren't they? Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Drow and many more are classified as "humanoids" which implies numerous similarities. I firmly believe nurture holds more sway then nature in cases of sentient, free thinking creatures.

In there world the difference between an Orc and Human is no wider then the difference between a Caucasian and a Asian in our world. Riddle me this; If I took the phrase "All Orcs are evil because they are Orcs" and replaced Orcs so it now said "All Arabs are evil because they are Arabs", does that seem right to you?

A few... "closed-minded" people and groups might agree with that statement, but most of us will say "Of course not! That's stupid, bias and racist." But replace Arabs with Orcs again and everyone will say; "Well they are Orcs now, so it's different..."

But is it different? I don't think so.

Alien races that are biologically not human can have innate behavioral considerations which would not fit in the box called 'good'. They are, in fact, alien mindsets not humans in rubber forehead costumes. So I have no philosophical trouble with the potential existence of inherently evil - or inherently good - races. It is just how the mechanics of their mind physically and chemically works.

Reminds me of how Shoddy Cast explained the motivations of the Daedric Princes from the Elder Scrolls series. How "good" and "evil" are in fact mortal concepts, and as immortal all powerful beings they have no restrictions to such mortal definitions.

But mortals are not stone like gods are, we are clay in manner of speaking, molded by the world around us and what we experience in life. Orcs are mostly a savage cruel race of warmongers, but it's only because every Orc born is born into that world around them, they grow up to become "evil" because that's what everyone around them is, and how they are raised to be themselves.

Take a baby orc and raise him in a place where he taught value for life and respect for elders and that outright war is a last resort and you won't end up with an "evil" Orc. Sure some of the primal rage might come out now and again but humans can be just as compulsive sometimes, it's very much a 90% nurture 10% nature split.

JakeCWolf wrote:

Rysky wrote:

And seriously? Have you even read any of the books? There are PLENTY of non-evil Undead, and even more non-evil Orcs and Goblins spread throughout Paizo products. There is also a non-evil Drow that I'm aware of. Not sure about Duergar because I'm not really that interested in them so I haven't...

I freaking love you so much right now. <3

Shamelessly snipping to say Dawwwww, Thankies ^w^

I'm just happy to be among like minded people who agree while Tolkien set the foundation for the modern fantasy genre that some of the dated tropes need to be left behind.

Bearded female Dwarves, and always evil mook races among them.

And seriously? Have you even read any of the books? There are PLENTY of non-evil Undead, and even more non-evil Orcs and Goblins spread throughout Paizo products. There is also a non-evil Drow that I'm aware of. Not sure about Duergar because I'm not really that interested in them so I haven't...

I freaking love you so much right now. <3

And not to witch hunt or anything Johnny, but you strike me heavily as the "staunch traditionalist" type of Pathfinder player. Like one of those Codex worshiping chapters of Space Marines from 40k, who blindly follow every word written in the Codex Astarte without out actually thinking about the meaning before hand;

"It is the codex, it is the law, this is THE EMPEROR'S DIVINE WILL IN WRITTEN FORM, PURGE HERTICS-ragflaglfaga-!"

A person successfully justifies their actions, because the minimum requirement to be good is to apparently believe that all your actions are good. This section does not even insinuate that the good character may have acted against his ideals. In fact, his good ideals where what lead him to commit the killing in the first place.

What the hell does it matter if Gorum advocates murder or not? The wanton destruction of life and property that inevitably occurs in wartime can hardly be considered Neutral unless, again, we bend over backwards justifying things. Just because you didn't want any non-combatants to die doesn't free you from the fact that you knowingly committed an act which would cause the death of said non-combatant.

Pathfinder is high fantasy. All undead are evil. All Non-PC goblins are evil. All Non-PC Orcs are evil. All Non-PC Drow are evil. All Non-PC Duergar are evil. Evil and good are inherent to a creature, so much so that they can be detected. For the cost of only a 5th level spell slot a character can remove the moral consequences of pretty much any of their actions. An entire class is based on finding and killing evil things. The PCs are rarely, if ever, even introduced to a situation where they can do something wrong.

All Drow too? I've so far thrown away those old conventions I find it almost fantasy racism to call them as a race evil with no gray areas. Hate me from bringing them up but I do love Blizzard for at least taking the time to explain WHY they were evil instead of pulling a Tolkien and saying "they're evil and sod the reasons why".

Chaotic Neutral is actually the alignment I choose for my character in progress Dungar Stonecracker the Dwarven Armored Hulk (Barbarian).

"I'm Drunk, I'm pissed, who wants and asskicking?"

He isn't doesn't really give a shat about good and evil, but doesn't go around murdering people, nor does he go off on a pointless quest because some hoity toity Cleric told him to.

He's generally nice and follows most laws, unless he gets stonefaced drunk, then he might get in trouble for a variety of reasons. But if your nice to him he'll reply in kind, especially if you buy him a beer or a dozen.

If said person gets in trouble with a gang of thugs just as Dungar is stumbling out of said bar, he's more then happy step up in their defense to repay his debt to them, besides any "good" excuse to kick someone's ass is a happy bonus for him.

JakeCWolf wrote:

Eilistraee herself is proof redemption and good lies even in a Drow souls, blame their millennia old, brainwashed, drider run society for they way they act, nature vs nurture as it where.

She's also proof that redemption comes at a heavy price.

To quote Jim Raynor from Starcraft; "Somethings are just worth fighting for." Even if that fight is an uphill battle in a driving wind threatening to blow you end over end all the way back to the slinking abyss at the bottom, better to fight for a chance at a better life then to live with the one you have.

Drow Nobles, or for that matter Drow themselves were created to be monsters, not standard player characters for a standard campaign. It's certainly plausible to run a drow centered campaign even if the characters were all Drow Nobles. It would however have to be run differently from the standard assumptions.

Yes but I feel storytelling has moved well and truly past the Tolkien era of "this race is the default evil mooks and have no good/redeeming qualities about them".

People say Blizzard really started it, and some despise them for it but I for one loved the fact they tell the story behind why, how and when Orcs where evil, as the old saying goes (most) every race is born with a b$&++~$% but no one is born one, there is a reason why races, and for that matter people are who they are.

Even the stereotypical uber demons of X sin of Y realm have a reason why they exist and act as they do, are they born from the combined evil lurking in the souls of all mortal races? Are they the spawn of a long dead ultimate evil being who died fighting the ultimate good being who death made all that was good in the world (like angels)?

I find Drow fully capable of redeeming qualities, Lolth is the reason they are evil, without her and the other "evil" Drow gods constant meddling Drow would be just as split between good, neutral and evil as humans are.

Eilistraee herself is proof redemption and good lies even in a Drow souls, blame their millennia old, brainwashed, drider run society for they way they act, nature vs nurture as it where.

Namely, when you look at a half orc half X what makes it obvious in your mind he or she is clearly half orc? This is more of an ascetic question not asking about game rules to identify a half orc with a skill check.

Personally for me what should be obvious about a half orc is greenish skin, lower tusks, taller and/or more musculature. When I think of half orc half elf for instance, this is what comes to mind:

http://orig11.deviantart.net/ae08/f/2010/175/8/6/elf_orc_character_by_colby stevenson.jpg

Before anyone says she's a pretty orc just for the sake of a fapfic, I have to add the argument that any cross with an elf parent is going to pretty, there's just no two ways around that, even the ugliest X crossed with an elf, (rules about elf parent not being able to pass on genes because of blah blah reason, clone birthing, ect.) will likely be at least a far bit less offensive to look at, if not mildly to very aesthetically pleasing.

So whats everyone else's defining half orc feature? Skin color, posture/muscle mass, ect. ?