Garrett Guillotte's page

RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter, 7 Season Dedicated Voter, 8 Season Star Voter. Organized Play Member. 1,295 posts (1,507 including aliases). 3 reviews. 3 lists. 1 wishlist. 3 Organized Play characters. 13 aliases.


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The fun thing about this one is it doesn't actually require Asmodeus to die to come true.

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Some really pissed-off intelligent magic items stuck to one of these dudes, I'm sure.

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Someone, somewhere, did indeed have a list of spells sorted by "Changed name, same mechanics" "Changed mechanics, same name" and "Replaced by different spell" way back in the earlier days of the remaster, so the details may be sparse but there was something.

Can't seem to find it right now, but there are surely dedicated fans out there working on something like it as we speak.

There are several, but the one I tend to use is Foundry VTT's.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
It's just kind of weird to me how Nethys's clerics are not wizards. It's sort of similar to how if nature is your thing, it probably makes more sense for you to be a Druid or a follower of the green faith than Gozreh worshipper.

I personally split it into mystery and mastery.

For a cleric of Nethys it isn't important, much less enough, to merely master the use of magic. Understanding the mystery of it matters.

Through practice and effort and research, anyone can master casting spells, applying arcane knowledge, or crafting magical items. But those same masters might never understand how or why they can manipulate these forces at all, or what their source is. They know how to cut the proverbial wood and form it into beautiful shapes, and even describe how the wood grows, but they can't tell you why the wood exists, what its purpose of existence is.

Faith in Nethys—like faith in many deities—is a focus on applying faith in that deity while pursuing answers to those questions. And faith specifically in Nethys is believing that a mortal can truly comprehend the answers, because one did, and the result of it was power over reality beyond the scope of every other spellcaster.

Someone who understands the metaphysical nature of the existence of a tree probably knows enough to be a passable woodworker but not a master like someone who focused on its application alone. Same with a cleric of Nethys. But they'll understand other things about magic that a wizard never can.

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Veltharis wrote:

Has less to do with how few (or many) archdevils House Thrune has deals with or how smooth/contentious the regime change in Hell is, and more to do with the fact that it would set up a situation where everyone who wants House Thrune deposed that can even remotely spare the manpower would immediately jump at the opportunity to overthrow them, quite possibly resulting in both internal uprisings and invasion by one or more foreign states simultaneously.

I do think it'd be a fun thought experiment to think about the character of Cheliax under an archdevil who isn't Asmodeus. Where Asmodeus had a little of all of them in balance, what if one of those diabolic aspects got cranked to 11 at the expense of the rest?

Does a Mephistophelean Cheliax go even harder into diabolic contracts, into an almost Soviets-in-the-Cold-War degree of bureaucracy and paranoia over secrets? Would we get a nation run by Hellknight signifers each trying to one-up each other's magical arsenal under Baalzebub? One that conscripts the entire population and goes full-bore aggressor under Moloch?

A Geryonic Cheliax would be fascinating, a nation that's gone so far into its own rewritten past that it manifests its own lies and myths as truths rather than disbelieve them. The existing noble class of Cheliax would probably vote for Mammon's Cheliax (not that they'd get a vote).

Dispater's Cheliax might be one that looks almost reformed on the outside but disappears people on the inside, blurring the lines with Nidal a little bit further.

The only one who wouldn't sound great is Belial, who's already got Vyre and the whole "running a nation" thing would get in the way of partying. And Barbatos would just let a goat run things.

Ezekieru wrote:

For those who weren't around for the latest Tian Xia livestream, we got a LOT of juicy details for the content in this book. Including all 3 of the remaining new ancestries!

...To elaborate the last part, they draw their sword harmlessly through their teammate, and the rune that best describes the partner's personality empowers it!

gogai, gogai, gogai

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Veltharis wrote:
I'm a big fan of Cheliax, and the death of Asmodeus would upend - if not utterly topple - House Thrune

It would be quite brave to believe that Thrune is indebted to only one major power of Hell. Or that Asmodeus hasn't done any estate planning, for that matter.

Besides, relax: it's Cheliax! If any nation in the Inner Sea region knows how to gracefully handle their patron god—upon whose powers they disproportionately rely—unexpectedly and suddenly dying, it's Cheliax! Famously stable during deific patron death chaos Cheliax!

Anyway, I'm off to go find the Ihystear. No reason. Don't worry about it!

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Ezekieru wrote:
Project: J-ko wrote:

Oh my God...all 20 of 'em. So week by week is how we're gonna find o-WAIT NO!!

There's only 10 weeks until April 16th. They're only gonna clear half the names by the time that stream goes live, if I'm doing my math right (which is questionable).

** spoiler omitted **

That, or they can reveal two gods are safe at a time going forward, saving the final reveal for the livestream.

Hear me out: March Madness bracket

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Errenor wrote:
These new dragons are very interesting and unique. But I'm curious about one thing: will there be in the new books a generic, traditional option? What should I use if I want just a 'normal' dragon, more or less 'normal' look, color, abilities (fire breath for example) and inclinations (cranky settlement razer and treasure hoarder)? Well, apart from using old chromatic ones. Which is ok, but the aim is to have a new option of the sort.

All of the chromatic and metallic dragons already statted up in Bestiaries remain mechanically compatible with the game.

These new dragons are additions as far as home games are concerned. The new dragons are here for Paizo to use and don't have to affect your home game in any way if you don't want them to.

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Wait, if it's just a flesh suit then does this mean the PCs can literally do the Scooby Doo thing and rip their face off at the end to reveal that it was Old Wyrm Jynxinz trying to scare everyone away from the old keep so he could sell it to the Lumber Consortium?

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James Jacobs wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:

This community probably can help on that note.

Probably in the lost omens forum. I can start a thread asking the community what is the story so far for the setting?
And James can jump in to tell us we are all way off track lol.
This is precisely the type of thing that's a great community project. And I'm not really the one to jump in to tell you if you're off track anymore... that's a Luis Loza thing, since he's the creative director for the rules and lore. I'm just the creative director for adventures these days.

Since we have to do this anyway to try and maintain PathfinderWiki, I've been tracking many of them at a high level, adding to it as I come across them, at User:Oznogon/Mapping of canon changes.

We established a new policy for documenting canon changes a few weeks ago. On articles where there's been a significant canon change, we've started documenting them in detail on Meta pages; on articles where the entire subject has been retconned, we added a banner calling this out. For instance, here's Meta:Drow, where I recently included a link to this discussion and an edited version of the transcript for the video Captain Morgan referred to.

The problem is that we can only document what we know about, and what we have the time to document. Implicit canon changes that occur only through removal are difficult to spot and document. They require a comprehensive individual knowledge of not only what's current but all of what's past, and are subject to interpretations that might not reflect intent. So we often rely on forum posts and video statements from Paizo staff to clarify, which for some subjects (including this one!) are also not always timely or reliable.

So we have to do it anyway, but as an unofficial volunteer project it'll always lag behind—sometimes for years, until/unless someone finds out about the change and makes it on the wiki.

(Oblig. wiki account request link and Discord link.)

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Two conspirator dragons move into a moderate-sized city at more or less the same time and start flirting with one another in their own inimitable fashion. Over the course of the next few years, the local political scene becomes very baroque indeed.

Drop them into Korvosa and see how they get on with the Arkonas.

James Jacobs wrote:

Alas, that's a complicated and pretty much undoable ask for us at this time—the remaster wreaked havoc on our production schedule and we're still in the process of recovering and catching up to the normal flow of work, which doesn't really have much room for an official thing like this from the creative team even during standard times. :(

We're like sharks. If we stop swimming (working on creating the next products to be released) we sink and drown!

Alas, indeed. Thanks for taking the time to consider it.

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Captain Morgan wrote:

No need to search more; I found the twitch stream where James mentions it. Check out the 20 minute mark.

Aaaaand I was wrong. His statement there makes it much clearer that they do have an in-world unreliable narrator thing, though that article doesn't sound likeit tmentions drow specifically. Sorry gang. I'll say it louder for the people at the back.


Gonna duck in here to lightly tap my "there should be an authoritative centralized official FAQ that covers a few wide-reaching major canon changes" drum again for those of us who can't, and others of us who don't know about, and the few of us who were completely either off-planet or buried underground for the last few years and couldn't, watch hour-long uncaptioned* Twitch streams that contain a few minutes of crucial context about very frequently asked-after major canon changes.

Just very lightly. A tiiiiny little bomp.

* YouTube link with robot captions available

Sanityfaerie wrote:
if the players manage to capture the enemy ship and bring it in as a prize... that's potentially quite a lot of money-equivalent

There were a few things I did in campaigns to subvert this.

First, the players started the campaign in _deep_ debt. Any money they made past equipping themselves and their ship went toward servicing their debt, until they became powerful enough that money in general wasn't their biggest concern. Flipping that around, you could have them sponsored by someone or something with enough money that they don't need a ton of money of their own. In either scenario an NPC will have either a strong case to take a significant cut of a captured ship's profit, or a reason to complicate selling it.

Second, most ships that were good enough for the players to even want to keep belonged to a larger organization. Pirates and raiders and such had ships that were too flawed to safely keep and too jury-rigged and expensive to fix (ergo why they were pirates and raiders on the fringes in the first place). Ships from unfamiliar parts of space might be too foreign to be pilotable by the player crew. Stealing government-owned ships would get you flagged immediately by any authority who recognized them, limiting who you can sell it to. Stealing corporate ships would get you on a bounty list and complicate everything they do going forward, including selling the ship. (And again, the players either have a debtor or a patron from problem #1 who's going to hear about all of this and make their lives harder as a result.)

Third, if the players don't mass-murder the captured ship's crew, they've got to either pressgang the prisoners into crewing the captured ship without betraying the players, or the players have to securely brig them. Either is basically giving the GM free storytelling currency worth more to the story than the money is worth to the players.

If players do mass-murder the crew—well, first, they've committed mass murder. But more immediately they've also made a conscious decision to split the party across two ships in order to get both to a place where they can sell it. If they try to get away with automating the captured ship, it'll inevitably be janky, which grants more free plot complications for the GM to play with.

Fourth, a damaged ship with no crew is only marginally more valuable than the materials that it's made out of. Capturing a ship and scuttling it to salvage its most valuable materials reduces the total economic gain but also ducks a few of the in-universe problems above from stealing it and the game overhead of managing one party in two ships.

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I wish I'd seen this thread earlier.

Driftbourne wrote:
I think in general ship combat might be more interesting if blowing up the opponent wasn't the end of the encounter

Before Starfinder was first announced I had an about 90% finished bridge-based spaceship combat system built on PF1 rules, meant to be compatible with a Pathfinder/Golarion-like magitech setting.

To keep combat expedient, a random system would fail for every 20% of damage that another ship took. A skilled enough shot could influence which one. Any of them (sensors, steering, engines, weapons, power) could effectively remove the damaged ship from combat for at least several rounds. Player ships could be prone to this too but recover a little faster.

I also structured ship encounters to avoid "blow them all up" as an objective, except maybe in a one-shot or campaign's most climactic battle. Sometimes just scanning something, reaching a specific point, or preventing another ship from doing those things was enough to be tense while also faster to accomplish, and the end result left enough loose ends to feed the rest of the story going forward. Disabling and capturing a ship also let us move from ship to character combat sooner, if players were up for it.

And anyway, the best ship combats were between just two damaged ships with busted systems, and every character running around on fire trying to hold it together just long enough to figure out the other ship's weakness and exploit it. A bunch of intact ships gunning at each other is a nice cinematic visual but can make player actions either much less impactful or much more contrived.

That all takes encounter design more than a specific system change, though.

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Is this the final list/any chance of lobbying more stores to sign up between now and May?

Are these for the entirety of the con (May 24–27) or just specific days?

PossibleCabbage wrote:
But the Ayindilar are going to be like the Jinin, in that their ancestors fled into the Darklands to avoid Earthfall instead of going to Sovyrian right?

Heavy is the Crown stated as much, yeah: "Ayindilar elves are descended from those who sought the Darklands as shelter from Earthfall."

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Cori Marie wrote:
Aenigma wrote:
I honestly have no idea why Paizo decided to remove drow from the game entirely. ...
Literally two posts above yours is a detailed explanation, but continue to ignore if you must.

Without disputing Cori's point in the scope of this thread, I think it's worth again suggesting that there be a more authoritative place to point people than forum posts, which can have limited or incomplete context, or be taken out of context, or as James also pointed out in this thread can reflect a thought that's part of a process which evolves over time.

I'd still suggest an official Frequently Asked Questions page similar to the mechanical and printing errata FAQ. It wouldn't have to be comprehensive (ever, much less on day 1) nor tasked with solving any resulting plot holes, and it wouldn't have to explain why something was removed. But if the answer to every question about a canon change is a link to another forum post or thread, then the fundamental problems of authority and context that've led to confusion will persist.

Such a list might not've been large enough to be worth adding prior to the Remaster — and full of retcons to either relatively small details or infrequently mentioned entities — but it certainly seems like it would be worth it now between the retroactive changes that 2E and the Remaster have either canonized or introduced by omission.

For PathfinderWiki, this has been a long-running problem not limited to the drow or the Remaster. And as someone who's freelanced for Paizo before, I've had few ways of learning about such changes if I wasn't already aware of them going into an assignment.

Both are problems that James rather directly pointed out before on a much lesser retcon for the location of one of the Acts of Iomedae:

James Jacobs wrote:

The Wiki isn't always 100% accurate, and it's sometimes frustrating to me that when we correct things or change things in the world lore that the Wiki doesn't always reflect those changes. I'm not trying to throw shade on the folks who work on the wiki, and they do a GREAT job at keeping it full of info—I use it all the time myself to help research topics... but it's not a primary source.


The fact that we have never had a way to issue errata to world lore in a way that lets customers know... much less our own freelancers or employees know... when we make a mistake with lore that then gets fixed has bothered me for quite some time. The fact that you (rightfully) call them "stealth corrections" is a big part of the problem, and it's one of the reasons I try to shine a light on the errors whenever and wherever I can.

(A thread I came across only because I've spent a week reading through a decade's worth of forum posts to try to compile a list of confirmed implicit canon excisions and fix them on the wiki.)

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James Jacobs wrote:
The wall of quotes from me above was in large part me trying to grapple with a very complicated question in public in real-time, and shouldn't be taken as anything other than an insight into my thought process on the problem.

Thanks, James. Unfortunately for the wiki, we have a policy that's become a liability.

PathfinderWiki has long had a canon clarification policy in which Paizo staff posts or statements can be cited to resolve canon conflicts, like typos or continuity errors. A typical example is when one source says something happened in one year and another source uses a different year, and then someone like James or Luis pops up and helpfully clarifies which one is accurate.

The missing context for Laclale asking Luis about whether the drow exist, or really for most of Laclale's questions in that thread, is that Laclale then comes over to the wiki to make or request changes based on these (and many, many other) forum posts.

Now that Luis has quite explicitly said the drow have never existed, PathfinderWiki editors are all banging away in the Discord trying to figure out what to do about all the drow- and Second Darkness-related references on the wiki. Which we wouldn't (and arguably shouldn't) otherwise be doing until an official canon source explicitly stated as much.

That canon clarification policy was never meant for this scale of change. The more I think about what's happening in this thread and especially why, the more it feels like that wiki policy is irrelevant to Remaster retcons, which aren't continuity errors as we've handled in the past so much as business decisions that don't have a tidy resolution.

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I do want to call out that it's been surprisingly difficult, frustrating, and time consuming to catch up specifically on canon changes after not following forum posts and especially staff replies on it on numerous threads across at least seven months. Relevant Twitch streams are as useful as they are hard to locate and watch, as someone with zero interest in Twitch, coming at them months from the future, none of which have transcripts. And unlike many of the mechanical changes, there's no centralized official FAQ or roundup I've found of Remaster-related changes to the setting canon.

A lot of sources for various assertions around drow being removed/retconned as referenced by Mark are scattered all over the forums or in poorly accessible/unsearchable places like Twitch, so it might help me to collect some of the relevant ones I either know about or can find via search.

I don't feel confident that I'm on the same page as anyone else here, as I'd been under the impression until the last day or two that drow were being handled like Kostchtchie and other OGL-related changes with canon ties - being written off into history not to be revisited, rather than all references to them being actively retconned out of history without a clear replacement.

December 31, 2023:

Luis Loza wrote:
Drow don't exist in Golarion and it's as if they never existed. Going forward, ayindilar elves will fulfill any Darklands elves needs and mechanically, you can play a cavern elf to scratch that "elf that lives in the dark" itch.

December 29, 2023:

Luis Loza wrote:
Drow are absolutely gone and aren't coming back.

October 6, 2023:

James Jacobs wrote:

(Second Darkness) still happened. If we were to update it we'd have to make some changes...

... Change the drow in the adventure to something else, but keep the 4th adventure set in Zirnakaynin, and use the opportunity to clear up the "what happened there" mystery that we're now assuming is the norm, with all the other Drow cities in Sekamaina being serpentfolk cities, but Zirnakaynin being a city that they don't go to and no one really knows what's going on there.

... The big (change in modern Golarion) is that the Winter Council, a shadow government of evil elves operating in secret in Kyonin, has been exposed and defeated, allowing and encouraging the elves of Kyonin to be more open and friendly with their neighbors.

June 13, 2023:

James Jacobs wrote:
Virellius wrote:

I mean all they need to do is say 'these elves who live underground in the darklands (literally what the Ayindilar are said to be) are called Cavern Elves by the surface. Their skin is pale due to being subterranean and takes on a lavender hue due to ~magic~.'

Removing Drow but ALSO keeping elves who live in enclaves in the Darklands is just unnecessarily confusing, imo, especially with very recently established Darklands elf populations in APs.

That's very likely what we'll do in those cases, but we won't HAVE to do that unless we do a story that builds upon that content or we reprint one of those products as an ORC adventure. Neither of those things are taking place anytime soon, if ever.

A more likely development would be that we do an adventure or story that builds upon some of those OGL established characters, at which point we'll update things as makes sense.

Those two groups are already not like the D&D drow, so simply changing their name and some of their history is all that's needed, and again, unless we do something with those in an ORC product, we don't have to do that at all.

What neither of those situations address at all is the precedent we established in 3.5 Golarion about the drow who dwell in Sekamina and are intentionally very close to D&D's OGL drow, by design, to help make early-Golarion/pre-Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder more comfortable and inviting to our magazine customers and fans of about 15 years ago.

June 6, 2023:

James Jacobs wrote:
Going forward, we won't be doing drow stories, and their presence in the Darklands will be replaced by serpentfolk. If/when we do a bigger Darklands story set in Sekaminia, builds on Celwynvian or Second Darkness, or the like, that'll be a point where we'll get into further details on those topics. We will need to figure out how to bring the events of Second Darkness forward at some point if we want to do anything that builds on those story threads, but we haven't made those specific decisions yet. We've just given ourselves the non-OGL tools we'll need to do so.

June 6, 2023:

James Jacobs wrote:
Yes, while the players (and thus the Player Characters) of Second Darkness know all about that stuff, the world at large doesn't, really, since we assume the PCs succeed and save the world without many folks ever knowing that the world was in peril in the first place. Which does make the in-world canon adjustments potentially a little more logical, and opens up some great opportunities for GMs to brainstorm things like exactly what folks are doing in this thread. :-)

The entire PF2R Drow thread on May 28, 2023, particularly:

James Jacobs wrote:

At this point what that means for Second Darkness isn't something we've decided on, but my gut tells me that we'll end up regarding a fair amount of that Adventure Path as non-canonical, like what we did with "Guardians of Dragonfall". The events of Second Darkness are in some ways kind of load bearing, of course, and the lore parts about things like Riddleport are fine, but the larger question of how to handle it...

I suspect those will need to wait until we do something that builds directly off of lore elements established in there. At this point we don't have anything that does that, but rather than spring the "Surprise we can't do drow in the remastered stuff" move sometime in the future when we do wanna do something more with the Darklands or the Winter Council or the like, we made the decision to be transparent about the change at the earliest opportunity after it became apparent that moving out of the OGL publishing business was best for all of us.

May 28, 2023:

James Jacobs wrote:
The Thing From Another World wrote:

Understand why it was done because unfortunately whether we like it or not they need to divorcé themselves entirely of any OGL elements.

For the purpose of any rule questions etc I will refer to them as the Drow as the new name for the time being does not roll of the tongue as easily as Drow.

Fair enough... but to remind folks, the ayindialr are NOT going to fill the same niche as drow did. They'll be their own thing; more nomadic elves in the upper reaches of Nar-Voth who have small communities and are friendly and "chaotic good" to use the classic tropes.

After finding or being pointed to all of this in retrospect as someone relatively "new" to these changes, and who also didn't witness them in real time, I don't think it's remotely as clear as suggested what the canon effects of retroactively removing the drow actually are. It's also a complicated state for campaign setting canon from the wiki perspective, even if it's relatively straightforward for players/GMs who can take or leave whatever changes they choose, continue to use existing mechanics, etc.

The wiki is written from an omniscient POV, so the relative unawareness of people on Golarion of the drow either before or after the retcon isn't relevant to their inclusion. We either have to remove 1E/2E OGL (or pre-Remaster or pre-Sky King or whatever we're calling it) canon drow content from the wiki because it's no longer canon, or we have a paradox where drow are simultaneously documented as canon because nothing in the canon has removed or replaced them while they've also "never existed".

Removing drow articles and references from the wiki in line with the retcon makes the wiki less useful to 1E and 2E folks playing content set before the retcon, and we aren't required to do so because as a fair-use reference we aren't bound to the OGL problems as game-mechanics references are. But keeping drow content on the wiki makes either the wiki or the setting seem inconsistent to folks playing after the retcon.

And few of these changes are explicit, which further complicates things. Shensen's drow background silently and implicitly goes away in Firebrands, the state of AV drow when AV won't be revisited to clarify it, etc.

Until/unless someone at Paizo officially clarifies specific retroactive changes made to past stories, and whether something or nothing replaces those retconned stories and details, there's no authoritative source we can draw from to make the wiki at least internally consistent. We can't contextualize or explain conflicts of omission to people coming to those subjects from their pre-retcon sources where they're prominent.

For instance, can I legitimately say that Ayindilar elves are the canon replacement for drow? It sounds like they simultaneously are and aren't, depending on how you look at them.

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The 2E Beginner Box reprint will presumably be the first time that a published pre-Remaster work that included drow will run with Remaster changes incorporated, which possibly might inform some canon/mechanical consistency logistics when running past works for the first time.

Some undefined as of today knock-on canon effects of "it's as if drow never existed", which are top of mind for me re: PathfinderWiki and independent of handling any given table's past experience:

  • - Abomination Vaults, oof.
    What were Chandriu, Volluk, Falxi, the Yldaris outpost, etc.? Were they all Ayindilars The Whole Time with a palette swap on the artwork? There's enough on drow culture in here that a direct swap seems harder to reckon even if the Yldaris drow are relatively chill and detached compared to the Darklands drow. Or maybe that whole story was just a dream.

  • - Fleshwarps still live "in large numbers" in the Darklands per Heavy is the Crown, which suggests they're now descendants of Thassilonian experiments. What parts of fleshwarp lore in Ancestry Guide survive? Do driders and shapewarped still exist, if so then what are driders callled now, and who in-setting gets to take credit for them? Is Nex/the Mana Wastes now the primary region anywhere on/in Golarion for fleshwarping per Impossible Lands?
    Are malicious new acts of fleshwarping in the Darklands now primarily a seugathi thing per Abomination Vaults?

  • - Most importantly,
    are all past canon stories about drow on Golarion just Lallizanx's crudely drawn erotic fan fiction, and also please say yes this is exactly and perfectly true, Abomination Vaults actually took place in 4700-ish AR and Koriah Azmeren literally just grabbed Lallizanx's book and came back and was like "uhhhh yeah I don't wanna talk about what I actually saw in the Darklands" and instead plagiarized the fleshwarp's barely-dressed-dark-elven-mommy-dommy smut comic wholesale into Chronicles Vol. 44 and whoops sorry about that everybody! Please, please do this. Thank you for your time.

  • - Blood Lords.
    Probably an easy direct swap of the Orvian drow vampire clan with anything else since they don't really have any drow-specific traits here.

  • - The relationship of Ayindilar elves to surface elves, both during and since the Winter Council's presence/influence. Second Darkness had a lot to say here about who left Golarion, who stayed, who went underground, and how they felt about each other. Second Darkness is still somehow canon, but what that entails hasn't been detailed much.

  • - Uh, speaking of Second Darkness... so... what did actually happen in 4709 AR, if not "Golarion learns of the existence of evil subterranean elves called drow" per the World Guide? Yet another Doomsday Dawn-style well-executed Esoteric Eye cover up, or mass hysteria, or...? Is this a direct Ayindilar swap except instead of the whole Earthfall II: Eldritch Boogaloo scheme they just popped up out of a hole and said "hi! we're dirt elfs. bye!!" and did nothing else of note? Who dropped that big rock???

  • - Did Earthfall still awaken Rovagug? If so, were Ayindilars affected/how were they affected differently to not become more similar to past depictions of drow? Second Darkness established, and 2E/Lost Omens doubled down on, Earthfall-related Rovagug stirring corrupting underground elves. Nothing on Ayindilars in Sky King's Tomb mentioned it.

  • - The scope of demon and Rovagug worship in the Darklands. Drow prevalence in Sekamina meant that much of it had a demonic aspect. Dero redistribution might fill some of this role; with sekmin/serpentfolk retconning back their dominance, do they take this on? Or is demon worship no longer/never was a prominent aspect of the Darklands?

  • - The nature of any half-drow/darkborn/Hollowborn. Are they now half-Ayindilar? In 2E this mostly affects the little bit of what's in Character Guide, which had cavern elves and Hollowborn as separate heritages.

  • - Slavery in the Darklands. Surface slavery canon changes were a progression more than a retcon (everyone abolished slavery around the same time in-setting but still reckon with it having been part of the recent past, the Bellflower Network still exists but pivoted its mission, etc.). Slavery was also often a factor in Darklands plots, and drow were usually involved on multiple levels of the slave trade; if they never existed instead of going back to their home planet or whatever, then dero and sekmin/serpentfolk probably fill in any lingering or retconned drow roles here. Or maybe that whole aspect of the past Darklands is simply retconned out along with the drow?

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I saw this raised in a separate discussion off-forums, and I think Paizo is now (and recently) aware of this as a result.

The index page had been split off into monthly archives until around 2021, at which point it began accumulating every post, including all images in those posts, since that point. The browser struggles because it's loading two years of blog posts at once at the tune of more than a gigabyte.

For me on 1-gigabit fiber and a decent new laptop with lots of RAM, it transfers about 1.44 GB, takes about 1m35s, and near the end starts to degrade performance. (At least one post also seems to repeatedly and indefinitely try to fetch something from the Google Play store.) I can imagine on a phone or other less powerful device that it's much worse.

It's probably been a boiling-frog kind of problem on the web team side; it didn't cause errors for people until the index grew, week by week, into a monster large enough to do so.

keftiu wrote:
I think a dev has said it's an error - check the Lost Omens errata thread?

It was asked there in November 2022 with no official answer.

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Still a question since Guns & Gears didn't clarify much on this front.

The specific discrepancy:

Wardens of the Reborn Forge pg. 56, population for the city of Alkenstar: 53,600 (85% humans, 7% dwarves, 3% halflings, 5% other)

Impossible Lands pg. 72, population for the city of Alkenstar: 53,600 (93% dwarves, 4% humans, 3% other)

Every prominent figure listed in the Impossible Lands settlement statblock is human or half-human. So is almost every bold-faced name in the article's content; the only dwarf mentioned by name in it is Dongun Hold's king, and only as part of Alkenstar's founding.

There are more gnomes (2), gnolls, fleshwarps, naiads, and "unique self-aware clockwork amalgams" (1) mentioned by name as being in Alkenstar City than dwarves (0) in the Alkenstar article of Impossible Lands. All three dwarves mentioned by name as being in Alkenstar are in Guns & Gears; two are described as being from Dongun Hold and one lives and works outside Alkenstar.

Impossible Lands pg. 76 makes it clear that humans have been the majority from the start: "Contemporary Alkenstar society displays many influences from the customs and values of the Garundi Ustradi clans who founded the city-state together with Ancil Alkenstar. While Alkenstar’s ethnic composition has changed over the years due to the aggressive courtship of migrant laborers and the affluent from all across Golarion, both everyday life and general philosophical ideals remain rooted in Garundi concepts of hierarchy and value. ... Gnomes wishing to study the Mana Wastes’ outbursts of magic and the city’s unusual clockworks as well as dwarves visiting Dongun Hold can often be found in the city."

It feels like a copy-paste typo or something, since Dongun Hold's demographics in Impossible Lands are 95% dwarves, 3% humans, 2% other. If Alkenstar really is 93% dwarven at 53,600 population, it has at least 8,000 more dwarves than Highhelm (and a larger dwarven population by proportion too), and about 12 times more dwarves than Dongun Hold.

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My first (and only) PFS scenario was one of Linda's first to develop. I was a deer in headlights and she worked like she was already a seasoned pro. Still miss the old Pandemonium crew that got me into Pathfinder in the wayback days. Best of luck!

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
I'm pretty sure Andoran and Absalom also have printing presses, if memory serves?

There's a wiki article for that too: cited examples in at least Andoran, Cheliax (including parts that are now Ravounel), Galt, Nex, and Alkenstar "in the Inner Sea region alone". "Expensive, but not uncommon". They're even the central component of the Hellknight Order of the Rack's origin story.

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Reactivated my wiki account and fixed/added locations for a bunch of points of interest in the Shackles. Great work by Virenerus and VestOfHolding to connect the wiki to the mapping effort both as an information source and a data source, making it easy to contribute.

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Is Azlanti rum silver or gold? I'd figure the latter on vibes, but it's a piña colada, which is usually silver.

If it's gold, an Earth equivalent would probably be like a Santa Teresa 1796 - 35-year aged in a complicated process that involves some kind of directly tracked lineage, and rich without being sweet. Either that or a $40,000 1915 Wray and Nephew fished out of the bottom of a lake. Neither probably belongs in a piña colada, but then again I don't have Azlanti artifact money.

Andoren bourbon's just mid-shelf Jack, don't have to guess far there.

What I want to know is who's making agave spirits on Golarion? The only mention I've seen of agave is pulque, and it's in Ultimate Equipment so it doesn't pin it down to a Golarion location. Bars in Ilizmagorti and Wati have tequila drinks, but where are they getting it? And where am I getting a Paloma out here? Is there a Caydenite in the house?

Exemplar epithets scratched a lot of Earthdawn itches, and tinkering with technological ikon ideas quelled a lot of Iron Gods nostalgia. Haven't been this excited about a Pathfinder class since the Spiritualist.

The flavor of Mated Birds in Paired Flight, Skin Hard as Horn, and Strike Rivers, Seize Winds are maybe my favorite bits of mechanical writing in all of Pathfinder, just super evocative for pretty straightforward mechanics, and I hope they stick around.

Still curious how dedication feats will interact with exemplars/domain spell archetype. If they might be a sideways option for mythic-ish/demi-god PCs I'll probably houserule/GM fiat the hell out of it, but it's an approach I hadn't really considered until the playtest.

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Great to see this work continuing. I found out about it while updating my portfolio and noticed the links to my old render of John's 1E map data that I'd put up on pfwiki hosting were all broken.

If anyone still needs the 1E map (warts and all) now that the wiki's has changed over, I moved it back to my site at The wiki integration for clicking on POIs/cities is broken, but search, distance and area measurements, and John's Darklands map layer still work. It won't see any further updates.

As far as border things: I've started to become very annoyed at borders

Tell me about it. :D I don't recall John's approach to borders, but in editing some of that data for the wiki render I tried to follow the wiki's canonicty tiers. So the World Guide and APs would take precedent, and if lower-tier sources conflicted, we'd try to incorporate the conflict as canon unless it was irreconcilable.

With Mapbox, you have the option of layering border data, so you could have a World Guide border layer - what should be enough for most cases, or for outer zoom levels - and a layer that incorporates other canon sources, either as a toggle or visible on closer zoom.

EDIT: You can also follow the lead of Mapbox's own real-world project and add `dispute` flags to points/lines/polygons, and then filter on those for different "points of view". That could be consistent not just for borders but also POIs.

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Awesome, thank you!

If so, where's the OGL notice located? I can't seem to find one in the PDF bundle — is it in the physical box?

If it is not open game content, and acknowledging that "consult a lawyer" is a valid answer, does this preclude expanding on Beginner Box content with commercial third-party content, or even as CUP-allowed content if it relies on rules from the Beginner Box?

Hey John, out of curiosity, do you have the shapefiles for the current state of things posted somewhere? If so, I can try to start working on forking the interactive maps for 2E.

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Would folks really want to spend 20 or 30 bucks just to get a dozen Gargantuan pawns? I'm not sure there IS a market for something like that.

Not that one anecdotal hand raise is a market, but I'd probably subscribe to pawns again if there were Gargantuan products, and I'd definitely buy a Gargantuan pawn pack before I'd buy yet another small/medium/large/huge box.

I've spent about $20-30 bucks a year every year for five years to print, cut, and paste my own Gargantuan pawns to cardstock, for both Pathfinder and Starfinder and mostly using CUP and fan art. I'm lucky to have a crafts store two blocks away that carries everything I need, down to loanable cutters; most don't.

Having them professionally printed, cut, and pasted would be worth it for me, for sure. A pack of chromatic dragon pawns for $35? I'd use the hell out of that vs. one $35 mini of one kind of dragon that I still have to paint, store more carefully, and repaint when I inevitably screw it up when trying to travel with it. A pawn, I could chuck into a book or binder and not have to worry about it.

There are a few parts of the CUP text that feel like they need updating or clarification in light of some recent site updates and releases.

The URLs in the CUP and CUP FAQ for many things have changed. For the blog, package, and Tales web fiction, the URLs are specific and used to designate what content is permitted for reuse under the CUP. For web fiction in particular, the content has been folded into the community blog and the URL just redirects to the main page.

The current URLs for things linked to in the policy are:

  • Policy:
  • Registry:
  • FAQ:
  • Package:
  • Blog:
  • Tales web fiction: or

It's also unclear whether the Pathfinder: Kingmaker CRPG is an approved product, and if so under which section. Other licensed products, like Pathfinder Legends and Comics, are listed in Section 1.

In the FAQ:

The FAQ in general hasn't been updated since the release of Starfinder.


If I have a question about particular situations or the Community Use Policy in general, what should I do?

Use our Paizo Publishing General Discussion forum.

"Paizo Publishing General Discussion forum" should probably link to this forum, at Right now it redirects back to the main page.

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Are the art credits in the right order? Figured Damien Mammoliti would do the map and Luca Bancone would do the cityscape.

Hey Narolas, I know I'm about... checks watch... a year and two days late on this, but I:

1. Got unprojected shapefile data layers from John Mechalas's site
2. Edited them in QGIS
3. Saved them from QGIS as GeoJSON files
4. Styled the map by pointing Maputnik at the GeoJSON layers
5. Converted the GeoJSON layers to vector mbtiles with tippecanoe

It has been a while since I've gone through the steps, though.

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I've been hanging out here since RPG Superstar 2012, but Superstar is pretty much gone as an event, and I'm moving away from Pathfinder and Starfinder and won't be keeping up with the setting going forward or freelancing anymore. So I'm going on hiatus from the boards (and TTRPGs in general).

I'll still be active on PathfinderWiki and in other ways, at least for a while, but I wanted to post one last time to publicly thank Tim Nightengale and Dain Nielsen for giving me a shot at Wayfinder, Luke Palosaari for working so hard on the Fat Goblin Games books that we worked on, John Mechalas for bring a long-held dream of mapping Golarion to reality, and Judy Bauer for being a true editor's editor.

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Vector tile detail tests are coming along nicely. Here's zooming out from Sandpoint Cathedral with roads mapped.

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We've rolled out locator maps for many cities and locations on PathfinderWiki. At a quick glance about 500 wiki articles now have these locator maps, most of which didn't have any locator maps before. All locator maps get more accurate scale bars, and no longer require loading the entire 2-3MB Inner Sea map to display.

Thanks again to John for the hard work putting together the data. I've made sure he gets credited on every such map that we use on the wiki.

I also finally have a decent toolchain for generating and serving vector tiles from this data, so I'm closer to making the more feature-rich vector maps perform way better and require less bandwidth.

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
A single ysoki might be too difficult. What about a quasi-hive mind (limited range) of ysoki that calculate, activate the jump, and steer the ship through the Drift? When not Drift-ing, they can do DRD stuff too.

It's a cool concept that I'll probably steal for NPCs, but since I want this to be a playable concept (and don't want to lock the party into an all-rat adventure), I'm trying to keep it simple enough to be an archetype, theme, or mystic connection. For instance, if it's an archetype, I could swap the mystic spell cache or technomancer exocortex/drone feature for some kind of portable psi-amp that powers their spells and rips ship-sized Drift rifts.

If someone wants to go full hive-mind, I'd probably rather them stick with shirren or barathu characters.

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Oooo, wait, are you making guild navigator ysoki? That'd be damn creepy cool.

I'm still working out the mechanical details, but yeah, that's a heavy inspiration for the direction I want them to go in. So is Farscape's Pilot.

Basically, I want a ship whose pilot is its Drift engine, and to have a class option that's paired with a technological companion but in a more mystic sense than a mechanic/drone/exocortex. Ranatagi fit the bill; hell, "rift reach" is one letter off from the sorts of shenanigans I want them to get up to.

I haven't figured the system out well enough yet to determine if I want them to be more like technomancers or mystics, and I want to avoid the cavalier problem of them losing too mucuh utility when detached from their ship. But having that is a pretty high priority for my home game plans, as is having at least a ysoki-originated mystic connection that's unique to them and not Grandmother Rat.

Streamlined, faster, more cinematic space combat for when all of the PCs are in one ship. Simplifying stats and rolls for NPC ships to speed up tactical combat with lots of ships.

Environmental hazards and modifiers for tactical starship combat. Debris fields, gravity wells, ship momentum, unrealistic Trek-style "nebula" anomalies. Coming up with ways to build zero-combat starship-scale encounters.

More magic in starships. Magic propulsion, magic expansion bays, magic weapons, magic items. It weirds me out how much of the fantasy element of Starfinder evaporates when tactical starship combat starts.

Deeper computer/hacking rules and systems. I might have the only table on earth that wants computers to be handled more like Shadowrun, not less.

Porting ranatagi from Pathfinder and making ranatagi-using ysoki way more prominent in my setting.

Seeing if and how kingdom-building and mass combat rules work here.

Porting over some transhuman bits from Eclipse Phase, probably as a data-soul player race or reformed intellect devouerer race.

I'm guessing Return of the Runelords won't be a Beginner Box campaign, but a Sandpoint Box that happens to include Beginner Box-compatible stuff sure would be handy for running any campaign in Varisia.

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In the text of The Confirmation, a shirren host is referred to as "them", "they", and "themself".

The Confirmation:
A long-standing member of the Exo-Guardians, Zigvigix suffered severe injuries prior to the Society’s expedition to the Scoured Stars, which prevented them from taking part.

See also the follow-ups on page 13, which includes "they downplay their opinion when it might benefit themself".

It's true that Paizo style prefers "1-1/2", but in the vast majority of uses I can dig up in the 40-odd books that I'm willing to spin my wheels checking for it, it almost always appears in the context of prose where its meaning is obvious ("You do not apply 1-1/2 times your Dexterity bonus", read aloud as "You do not apply one-and-one-half times your Dexterity bonus").

It's also clear that it's not referring to a subtraction operation when operations in a calculation are spelled out ("a number of points of damage equal to 2d6 plus 1-1/2 times the chimera's Strength bonus"), hopefully for no reason other than it would be bog stupid to write "one minus one-half" instead of "one-half" if 0.5 is what's intended.

I do agree that it's unclear to use "1-1/2" in prose-free equations that use mathematical symbols instead of prose, like the abbreviated DC calculation format ("DC = 20 + 1-1/2 × your level"). It's not often used in this manner in Pathfinder, but in the zero Starfinder books that are in stores right now, it seems to appear much more frequently.

The rules have been officially released for -36 ("negative thirty-six") hours at this point, so I apologize if my understanding isn't very sophisticated, but I suspect part of the relative problem is Starfinder's increased reliance on abilities or checks that modify results or DCs with fractions, which Pathfinder didn't do as often.

I hope that someone in editorial team reads the original post (and only the original post) and takes it as legitimate feedback about rules readability going forward.

That said, and while I thought I'd stopped being surprised a long time ago at the sort of stuff folks will get into a mad froth about on these forums, I still foolishly didn't expect something like this would spawn a multi-page thread four days before the book's properly released, while most of the staff is at or in transit to Gen Con.

It was constructive to point out this potential confusion. Some people agree, some people don't, and both views are fine. I'm probably still a fool for believing this, but I also think everyone here agrees that it's morally acceptable to think this is confusing, and not a thoughtcrime to believe that this isn't confusing.

So what's the value of continuing to discuss this for a third straight day during the one week in Starfinder's entire lifecycle where sleeping is a more valuable use of the editorial staff's time than looking at this thread? What do y'all want out of this discussion? Validation?

Peat wrote:
Pax Rafkin wrote:
1000 flashlights. Sell the batteries they come with. Now buy whatever I want.
When you find the price of that 10 capacity battery in the CRB, let me know!

"Yes! Put Tony Stark in that cave. All that's in there is a suit of powered armor with no battery and 10 dollar-store flashlights. Let him rot in there forever."

We all know the real money is in the 7-cred personal comm unit with an 80-capacity battery anyway. Those ammo bandeliers are just full of cell phones.

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I still want to buy this product by the pallet.

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Yeah, I'm reminded of how bad that limited 3.5 PHB is every time I have to move. That thing leaks more than the White House.

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