RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter, 7 Season Dedicated Voter, 8 Season Star Voter. Organized Play Member. 1,332 posts (1,565 including aliases). 3 reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 3 Organized Play characters. 13 aliases.
It has certainly encouraged people to participate by allowing for compensation, but the only things on Infinite that were prohibited under the CUP were the prices.
And that's what I was referring to--it expanded commercial access to the setting. I appreciate the thoughtful replies, but I feel like you're nitpicking my wording a little bit here and not reading me in the best of faith.
I'm sorry if I come off as replying in bad faith; it's not at all my intent.
This entire subject is about the application of very specific terminology to a wide range of projects, and it's easy for me to miss the forest for the trees in the process. Thanks for clarifying what you meant there, because I clearly missed it.
My point was that the original non-Paizo publication method for newbie writers and artists willingly identified itself as a fan project, despite the immense professional-level labor being dedicated to it, and it did so because it was working within a copyright space it did not have any claim to own.
Then there's my confusion, since even after working on about half of Wayfinder's run, third-party publishers who used the OGL and PCL filled those roles more than Wayfinder to me. Paizo's RPG Superstar contest also predated Wayfinder, as did its PFS open call before that, and both spawned non-Paizo communities toward helping people succeed in them.
But the bigger theme to me was its community, and I think the Community part of the Community Use Policy is kind of what's gotten lost here. Wayfinder, PathfinderWiki, translation projects (which I'm happy to see be be reassessed here), campaign journals that had no desire to monetize or grow their reach, conversion projects, and many of the affected tools were and are communities first and products second.
Infinite has its own communities, and you and I are also both part of some of them. They're great communities. But the scope of what they do is honestly quite a bit smaller than Wayfinder's alone, much less what the CUP allowed, and the restrictions on it mean it's very much a community Paizo controls, rather than one under its own direction that happens to enjoy Paizo products.
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Nowadays, Pathfinder Infinite has greatly increased fan access to the setting and enabled fans to actually (try to) profit off of their work, which is super cool.
As much as I like Infinite, it hasn't greatly increased fan access to the setting. In some cases like access to official artwork, the CUP expanded Infinite's limits. Projects like the wiki's map are impossible on Infinite.
It has certainly encouraged people to participate by allowing for compensation, but the only things on Infinite that were prohibited under the CUP were the prices.
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
I don't consider "fanwork" to be derisive language, but it does still describe the fundamental interaction of working within someone else's world--particularly when, as in the case of the non-PFI works we've been talking about, you have no professional or monetary relationship to the owners of the property.
I think this understates some of the relationships that CUP projects had to Paizo professionally, particularly CUP-era AoN, PathfinderWiki, and the mapping project. These are resources that Paizo staff have openly used as reference materials for their jobs.
But it was also good that CUP projects weren't required to have a financial relationship or exclusive distribution, as Infinite does.
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Could someone publish the rules text of their product for free on their blog, then link to their rules-free PFI-published document that has all the flavor?
The Infinite agreement explicitly prohibits derivative works from being distributed outside of Infinite.
Infinite agreement 4.b. wrote:
(b) Except for short promotional excerpts used to promote your Work, you may not display, recreate, publish, distribute, or sell your Work (or derivatives thereof) outside of the Program administered on OBS websites or through other platforms or channels authorized or offered by the Publisher.
Also, anything you mention in the Infinite product is automatically and irrevocably granted to OneBookShelf and Paizo. You would no longer control any User Generated Content ("the original or derivative copyrightable elements included in your Work, such as proper nouns (characters, deities, locations, etc., as well as all adjectives, names, titles, and descriptive terms derived from proper nouns), characters, dialogue, locations, organizations, plots, and storylines") that you'd want to use outside of Infinite.
Infinite agreement 5.c. wrote:
(c) License to all User Generated Content in your Work. Effective as of the date we first make your Work available through the Program, you grant us the irrevocable license for the full term of copyright protection available (including renewals), to all User Generated Content included in your Work. You agree that the User Generated Content is available for unrestricted use by us without any additional compensation, notification, or attribution, including that we may allow other Program authors, The Publisher, and other third parties to use the User Generated Content.
I wouldn't touch that scenario without a lawyer's advice.
For what it's worth, as a pretty pedantic person, I don't feel any ideological difference. The original version of Pathfinder Infinite was Wayfinder, published by the self-dubbed Paizo Fans United. Working with Golarion is fanwork.
I can kind of get the point you're making, where Wayfinder generically stands in for publishing fan works. But it undersells the editing, layout, and organization work that unpaid volunteers put into Wayfinder, none of which is inherently part of self-publishing works to Infinite. It also doesn't acknowledge the money paid out of pocket to make print runs of it for PaizoCons because the CUP prohibited charging for it; Infinite works that sell can make their expenses back through sales as well as donations or patronage.
It also undersells the Infinite side, where people and groups are making significant money—not livelihood money, but significant nonetheless—using Golarion's setting regardless of Paizo's cut. The CUP didn't give Wayfinder contributors that option.
CUP works still made Paizo money, if indirectly. Most edits to PathfinderWiki came from people who bought all of the books or PDFs themselves, and I imagine the same was true of CUP-era AoN. PathfinderWiki links to books and the Paizo store, and so did AoN even before the commercial license. But no CUP project could charge for access and were strictly limited to covering expenses.
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
I looked at the wiki, because almost all the information has been posted online for free.
Wiki content's shared freely because the CUP requires it, but it's largely written out of content that wiki contributors paid Paizo to access, so it's hard to call it "posted online for free".
More to your point, a large part of my concern and participation here is trying to figure what can remain shared freely under the FCP, and how much has to be removed.
For instance, the CUP allowed verbatim use of fiction posted to the Paizo Blog. The FCP explicitly does not. Editors either have to rewrite pages for the iconics and other articles that have used fiction content or never touch them again in order to remain compliant under the FCP.
PathfinderWiki also uses terminology from OGL mechanics all over the wiki, on almost every creature, person, and deity page that includes 1E or 2E legacy sources. CRs, levels, domains and subdomains, class mechanics, schools of magic—hell, there are canon creatures that still cite the 3.5/d20 Tomb of Horrors books on there.
It's still unclear to me whether the wiki's use of these OGL terms in a mechanical context is compliant with the FCP, and if so whether that content might also make the wiki vulnerable to legal action from WotC, which the FCP suggests would become wiki contributors' responsibility.
Is that likely? It doesn't seem like it, but I don't like trusting WotC. Is any such risk worth it for what remains a fully volunteer project, something the FCP doesn't change? I'd argue no.
Whether the FCP changes or not, these points still matter. But it's still a scramble to understand whether there's any impact at all.
Feylin wrote:
Are the wikis going to have to get rid of the legacy posts and redirections?
No, at least as far as Mark's told us on the PathfinderWiki/StarfinderWiki Discord, where he suggested that just referring to OGL terms or concepts in a non-rules resource should be covered by fair use doctrine.
I appreciate Mark's perspective, but to me that's still a little shaky. The definition of and allowances from fair use are still subjective, and Mark also noted that any enforcement of OGL-related usage is ultimately up to WotC/Hasbro, not Paizo.
Not a comfortable situation either way, but at a minimum the wiki should be able to link an OGL concept to its non-OGL equivalent. Where I'm still lost is whether the FCP allows the wikis to mention or categorize content by OGL mechanical concepts like CRs, creature types/subtypes, deity domains/subdomains, and other such things relevant primarily or only in a mechanical sense, even if they aren't the predominant content on the wiki.
That wouldn't be much of a loss to me in the big picture, since AoN is the better source for those details and we can freely link to it. It's the uncertainty that's concerning, since if it's not allowed we're technically already non-compliant and at risk from Paizo.
emky wrote:
They already mucked up the wiki replacing all instances of "half elf" with whatever that incomprehensible nonce word Remaster has adopted is.
As the sole "they" who pulled the trigger on that change across PathfinderWiki in order to make it consistent with the language Paizo switched to using, I'm personally sad and sorry that it upset you or made the wiki worse for you.
emky wrote:
As for if it could be done, yes. Such a glossary (should it be just a glossary) would not require any permissions of any sort from Paizo or anyone else.
Since Paizo can't or won't officially compile it, such a glossary—or a single resource of any comprehensiveness—might not be possible if left entirely to the community, especially on a volunteer nature that's exempt from FCP's monetization allowances.
There have been a number of other community efforts to track and map Remaster changes to OGL equivalents, like KingTreyIII's Google Sheet. For lore changes and replacements, I've been updating a list of canon changes as I encounter them and try to track their implementation in PathfinderWiki; I haven't limited it to OGL-related changes but have tried to track whether the changes happened before or after the Remaster. I've seen others that are focused on mechanics, like the Foundry team's, or this one credited to a Jacob G.
But all such resources require constant maintenance, and are subject to different interpretations of Paizo's actions and the differing focuses of disparate communities. KingTreyIII's list has gaps for me when editing PathfinderWiki because it implies that concepts were removed from the game when they haven't been removed from the setting canon. My list, which includes OGL-associated creatures and terms that Paizo staff have confirmed remain part of the canon setting history, probably isn't as useful to KingTreyIII's work of converting APs in ways that are free of OGL content.
And even when PC2 is out, the Remaster won't be over. Every new AP issue, setting book, and rulebook will likely reintroduce, replace, or retcon things from before the Remaster. New novels and fiction could do the same for the setting even if mechanics are never made or published for them.
For example, Remaster sources don't include mechanics for ettins or bloodseekers, so KingTreyIII's sheet lists them as removed and AoN lists both as "legacy content", its default for anything that hasn't had mechanics published for them in a Remastered source. But ettins are mentioned in Tian Xia World Guide and bloodseekers are mentioned in both GM Core and Pactbreaker, so they both apparently remain active Remastered canon subjects despite their lack of Remastered mechanics, which might not even be necessary for them.
I feel like it's telling that the reactions range from "who would Paizo do this, they're evil" to "this is the best thing I've ever seen." Obviously this is because different folks are affected in different ways, but it shows that a bit of perspective is needed here when assessing the actual effects and motives of these changes.
For existing CUP projects now prohibited under the FCP, I believe it when their contributors say this is the worst fan interaction they've had with Paizo because it's a significant revocation of permission enacted with no warning. For artisans who can now be compensated for works based on Paizo IP, I believe it when they say this is the best fan interaction they've ever had with Paizo because it's a cool opportunity delivered as a fun surprise.
But I kind of wish that I didn't have the perspective I do and could just knee-jerk my way through this. More context only makes both Paizo's actions in the policies and their inaction around public comment more disappointing, not less.
In July 2023, Paizo teased that a new fan policy for artisans would accompany changes to the CUP.
Jim Butler wrote:
The shift to the ORC license will also necessitate a change to our Compatibility License and Community Use Policy. We’ll have those available for public comment soon, and final versions will be released before the new Remaster books come out in November. We’re also taking the opportunity to introduce a new fan policy I think many artisans are going to love.
It sounds like that plan morphed from "a change to our CUP (and) a new fan policy" to the CUP being immediately replaced by the FCP. The FCP both replaces the CUP and is a new policy with regulations and permissions for works and compensation that the CUP didn't cover or allow.
But the public comment period didn't make it, and it's the lack of motivation to have one that concerns me more than any motive that might be assigned to the actions that Paizo did take.
Especially as it becomes clearer that Paizo seemingly didn't anticipate how destructive these changes might be, or reach out to registered CUP projects for feedback, the lack of comment period becomes a glaring problem. Registration was mandatory under the CUP, and that registry link includes all of the projects whose contributors have posted here either in surprise and/or concern——and their concerns also appear to have surprised Paizo.
These issues could have been acknowledged, and maybe even prevented, by soliciting feedback about the FCP from CUP projects before replacing the CUP with it.
Instead, we're mired in a microcosm of the OGL 1.1 fallout, only somehow instead of finding out before it's enacted, the CUP is already done and dusted. Project contributors got to find out about ambiguous potential threats of legal action from the company they've supported for years and now have to decide which of their free passion projects and community resources they love enough to organize against the company to force changes, or whether to upend and broadly revise their projects to remain compliant with the new terms, or walk away from the open licenses they've enjoyed and give up their freedom to choose where and how they distribute their works, or shut down and leave the headaches behind altogether.
And those who fight for changes or change their projects in order to stay compliant then have to choose to keep supporting the company with their labor while knowing that it's demonstrated that it can and likely will change the terms of those policies on them again with the same lack of notice, input, or consideration. That stays true no matter what amends the company makes; it was true before the changes, too, but now it's impossible to ignore.
paizo.com/licenses has "Learn More" links for each of the licenses. The FCP, Infinite, Compatibility License, and ORC License all have FAQs (on the ORC, it's called the AxE for Answers and Explanations).
I very likely don't fully understand any of this, but I want to try repeating what I'm seeing back while trying to use concrete, non-hypothetical examples of projects that previously used the CUP in order to determine if I'm at least on the right track:
** spoiler omitted **...
For what i've understood you are near the only change is that you can still use the Cup until august 31
I don't believe this is true. August 31 is the date of the changes to Pathfinder and Starfinder Infinite, which are wholly separate of the CUP/FCP changes.
The blog post rather specifically states that "As of today, (July 22) Paizo’s Community Use Policy has been replaced by the Paizo Fan Content Policy". Mark's said in the thread that the CUP ended on July 22 when the FCP took effect, and that it did so without an official grace period. If a person is starting a new fan content project today, the CUP no longer applies to them, only the FCP.
Mark has mentioned that existing CUP projects don't have to be deleted. He's said that they aren't expected to immediately comply with the FCP but should show that they are making progress toward doing so ASAP.
I very likely don't fully understand any of this, but I want to try repeating what I'm seeing back while trying to use concrete, non-hypothetical examples of projects that previously used the CUP in order to determine if I'm at least on the right track:
Seriously: I am not, have never been, and will never be a lawyer:
Lore and setting resources that contain limited or no mechanical content, such as PathfinderWiki and StarfinderWiki, WERE allowed under the CUP and REMAIN allowed under the FCP.
- Because the relatively small amount and limited scope of rules content on these wikis doesn't require OGL or ORC-license notices in order to reference them, they don't have to cite the OGL or ORC license.
- Because they don't have to cite the OGL or ORC license, they avoid the FCP's prohibition against creating resources containing rules content that require those licenses.
- The threshold is unclear, but if PFW or SFW added enough rules content to require use of the ORC license or OGL, Paizo MIGHT gain the legal option to request them to take it down under the FCP. Paizo WOULD NOT have gained that option under the CUP.
- Not that I believe either wiki wants to, should, or will, but purely as an example it's unclear whether PathfinderWiki or StarfinderWiki could now paywall or monetize their contents under the FCP. Both host large amounts of Paizo artwork that they can use but cannot monetize under the FCP.
- It's unclear to me how well any Fair Use defense over lore wikis' use of OGL names and terminology would stand up.
SRDs and fan resources predominantly containing OGL or ORC-licensed rules, like Hephaistos for Starfinder 1E or Archives of Nethys prior to its commercial license, WERE allowed to be created or maintained under the CUP. They ARE NOT allowed under the FCP.
- This is independent of those resources' use of setting content. For instance, under the CUP you could create setting-neutral rules reference resources but use verbatim text or images from the Paizo Blog, or images of Paizo products, thanks to the CUP. But it especially affects Starfinder and Pathfinder Second Edition, in which setting content and protected IP are sometimes deeply intertwined with openly licensed rules.
- If Blake Davis had waited to start a CUP + OGL/ORC Archives of Nethys on July 21, 2024, he could've gotten started on it. However, once the FCP dropped he'd have to cease all work on it; the CUP no longer existed the moment the FCP took effect, and the FCP prohibits the resource.
If procrastinating Blake persisted anyway, Paizo would have the option to take action against him under the FCP. They would NOT have gained that option under the CUP.
Instead of risking legal action from Paizo, this long-procrastinating Blake could instead either get a commercial license from Paizo to use Paizo IP, or remove all Paizo IP from his SRD (and optionally use the Compatibility License for logos), add the OGL and ORC license, and maybe rename it Archives of Not-this instead.
- Tools like Pathbuilder and d20pfsrd are unaffected because they never used Paizo IP and instead relied on open licenses from the start so they could be monetized, which the CUP prohibited. That hasn't changed; the FCP doesn't let them monetize under it either; even though the FCP allows monetization, it can't be applied to OGL/ORC licensed resources predominantly composed of game mechanics.
Static resources like GM screens, pawns, and character sheets that used Paizo logos and permitted artwork but did not predominantly contain rules content or perform calculations using rules content WERE allowed under the CUP, and REMAIN allowed under the FCP.
- You might be able to monetize them with the FCP if you remove all Paizo artwork. This isn't fully clear to me despite some language in the license, FAQ, and this discussion.
Dynamic GM calculators, autofilling character sheets, and creature generation tools or starship creation tools that rely on OGL or ORC-licensed rules to fill in fields WERE allowed under the CUP, but ARE NOT allowed under the FCP. This includes things like Dyslexic Character Sheets, the Hephaistos Toolset for Starfinder, and most things tagged Utility on pf2.tools that use the CUP (ie. Pathfinder 2E Dashboard) and also predominantly include rules content.
- You can still make or maintain them, but you lose all access to Paizo artwork and IP that the CUP granted. You have to remove or avoid adding any Paizo IP and setting material and license the resource under the OGL or ORC license instead of the FCP. You can choose to use the Compatibility License logos if you want them.
- If you retire the resource immediately, it sounds like you can keep it up under the terms of the CUP, but you can't add anything to or update them without agreeing to the FCP.
- Some resources like these could be sold or given away for free on Infinite, but starting September 1 they definitely can't be distributed on Infinite if they use OGL rules or refer to prohibited OGL concepts. You have to figure out what those prohibited OGL concepts are yourself.
- I don't understand how Foundry content worked with the CUP, if it did at all, but it looks much more clearly like the FCP doesn't enable it.
Published documents containing Pathfinder First Edition and Starfinder First Edition adventures and rules content WERE allowed to use setting art and content under the CUP but ARE NOT allowed to use them under the FCP. This includes things like Wayfinder, fan expansions of the Beginner Box, fan conversions of Pathfinder Second Edition content to Pathfinder First Edition, and the many detailed published class guides hosted in places like Google Docs and Reddit that heavily rely on rules and Paizo IP or artwork.
- As of right now and only until August 31, 2024, you CAN STILL use setting art and content in those creations, but you have to post them for free on Infinite. You can't use an open license like the ORC license or OGL, and you agree to never distribute it outside of Infinite. On and after September 1, you then lose all ability to post 1E mechanical content on Infinite.
- Pathfinder Second Edition adventures and rules options that rely on references to OGL terms, concepts, or creatures are affected in the same ways.
You can remove those OGL-prohibited concepts, but you have to figure out what those prohibited concepts are yourself. Paizo cannot and will not help you identify what those prohibited concepts are.
You could also avoid those risks in Pathfinder 2E by not referring to anything published before the Remaster. The downside (especially for Starfinder post-September 1) is how much content exists that hasn't been Remastered. You can theoretically obliquely refer to things, but if it's an OGL-prohibited concept you can't call it by its name.
- If Tim Nightengale drank eight pots of coffee and decided to revive Wayfinder, solicited a bunch of OGL and ORC-licensed rules content from contributors, and published a new PDF of fan works on the Paizo store just like all the other Wayfinder issues, Tim would be in violation of the FCP and Paizo would have the legal option to take action against him.
If Tim decided to print out a bunch of copies of it and hand them out at a convention like he did with past Wayfinder issues, he'd be in violation of the FCP, etc. million years dungeon etc. The combination of setting and rules that relies on the OGL or ORC license is what violates the FCP.
Tim could move forward without changing the content by publishing the new Wayfinder issue on Infinite instead of to the Paizo store, but he'd have to do so before September 1 and the issue would be required to use the Infinite license instead of the OGL and ORC license. If he waits until September 1 to publish, he'd have to remove all OGL content and references from the zine but could move forward.
- Previously published issues of Wayfinder that used the CUP don't have to go away, but they can't be updated (not that I think Tim would ever do that).
Of the things that Paizo otherwise allows you to make under the FCP, you WERE NOT allowed to paywall or monetize them under the CUP, but you ARE allowed to do so for most of those things under the FCP.
- There are exceptions, mostly intended to prevent people from repackaging Paizo IP for sale or mass-producing merchandise based on Paizo content.
Talking about or posting specific mechanics on a messageboard or in social media discussions WASN'T RELEVANT to the CUP, and REMAINS IRRELEVANT to the FCP. Nothing changes there.
- This isn't clearly stated in either policy, but it seems to be how Paizo is interpreting it as a Fair Use concern.
To be thorough, you also CAN still create and distribute OGL-licensed Pathfinder and Starfinder 1E mechanics outside of Infinite, regardless of whether it's August 31 or September 1 or whenever. Nothing here has changed that.
But you'd also have to strip all Paizo IP out of those works. You'll never be able to distribute it or any derivative works on Infinite. You can charge anything you want for them, but you have to handle distribution yourself or find a publisher who'll do it for you. If you mess up and use prohibited content, you're legally liable for it.
All of that is as true today as it was last week and 10 years ago, and barring some other catastrophe it should still be true on September 1. That's how all third-party publishing worked before Infinite existed.
Hi, Luis! I was wondering if the pre-Remaster primal dragons associated with Elemental Planes and the Shadow Plane/Netherworld, like the magma, brine, crystal, cloud, and umbral dragons, are still considered primal dragons after the Remaster?
Will it be possible to use SF1e setting lore with SF2e rules in Starfinder Infinite once SF2e is out?
Lore is safe from these changes. You can do whatever you want with lore (so long as that lore isn't fundamentally something we've deemed too OGL-entangled to use in SF2, like drow).
Is there a reference of what is and isn't "too OGL-entangled to use in SF2"? Or will this be like the Pathfinder Remaster, where the community has had to determine what lore Paizo is and isn't using anymore and compile such lists ourselves?
3. Copyright holders must protect their IP, or in the eyes of the law they lose rights to it. You can't actually just let people play with your IP without some kind of agreement or you effectively erode your control over it. If people can use your stuff at will, you can quickly find yourself paying to develop content that your competition will use.
The CUP was an agreement that allowed Paizo to both stake its ownership of protected IP while also allowing limited usage of it by fans in Pathfinder or Starfinder game material, or in reference resources where open rules and protected IP couldn't be easily extricated, or in fan-published adventures, creatures, items, etc. that used Paizo setting material.
The removal of the CUP and its replacement with the FCP, which explicitly prohibits the creation of such resources, is the point of contention. Especially when paired with the changes to what Infinite allows, it effectively revokes permission for any new or continuing resources that combine rules and setting material for Pathfinder First Edition or Starfinder First Edition.
Nobody is claiming that Paizo doesn't or shouldn't have the right to protect their copyrighted IP or trademarks. Especially around the FCP, people seem to largely be asking how Paizo's decision to abruptly reduce the permission they previously granted for fan content might affect—or expressing how it is actively and materially detrimental to—their projects.
The more procedural issues I've had with how this has rolled out are the lack of a public comment period, in which many of these questions might've been answerable before the CUP was removed, and the lack of outreach to registered CUP projects to clarify how these changes might affect them.
As I understand this, under the FCP it's impossible to make another free fanzine like Wayfinder that uses Golarion/Starfinder IP, and includes game mechanics, and is openly/permissively licensed outside of Infinite. Is that accurate?
Took a swing at transcribing the list of creatures from the back of the box by hand. Numbered list on PathfinderWiki, bare text list copied below under the spoiler.
He's a much more binary threat, which means we all kind of know Paizo's never going to actually let him win
Rovagug's Razor: The simplest explanation for Golarion ceasing to exist in Starfinder is because he got out and ate it like a snack. Starfinder's an entire parallel campaign setting that effectively describes a universe in which Paizo actually let him win.
What's a conveniently placed weapon strong enough to kill a god-killer, who has the key to its cage, and what kind of deal would the 20 strike with it in order to deal with a problem of that scale?
"Oh no, don't eat Golarion, we like it too much now. But weren't you hungry for another planet way back then? What was its name? Androffa, or was it Earth? I forget. Mind if I flip a coin? Pinky-promise me that you'll only eat that planet way out that way and we'll let you have a little fun, just so long as the rest of us are safe." With their fingers crossed behind their backs that whatever's starting this war of god-killing weakens, or even solves, the whole "caged maniac destruction god" problem for them. Two birds, one Starstone.
Looking at this list again, why do they think the Wemmuth is gone forever? That's a Paizo 2e original.
Same as the rest of the list, I'd guess. An assumption that absence from Monster Core = removal from canon, instead of a sign that they didn't require significant changes from pre-Remaster content to still work.
The spreadsheet would've worked a lot better if it either cited sources confirming removal or didn't default to stating _Removed_ when the status wasn't confirmed.
If it's Rovagug--like, if Rovagug's gonna rattle the cage--he kind of has to die at the end of the WoI, right? They can't just lock him back up, that'd be anticlimactic.
I dunno, Tar-Baphon didn't have to die for Tyrant's Grasp to work. Not sure why that'd be different. Rovagug can be stopped or sated without necessarily killing or re-caging it.
I went through this list with a couple other PathfinderWiki editors and many of the ones listed as removed are very unlikely to have been permanently removed.
While Second Darkness would need more work than most other potential updates, it wouldn't have to be anywhere close to "completely rewritten." The basic plot still works fine. If I were to work on this as an official Remastered product, the three big changes I would work into the story would be:
** spoiler omitted **...
Spoiler:
James Jacobs wrote:
... the element of the PCs infiltrating this city would be EASIER to do, since the serpentfolk have an established ability to shift form and do have non-serpentfolk people in their society, so we wouldn't need a kludge like "recorporeal incarnation" to enable that plot (something we built in pretty much SPECIFICALLY to give players the rush of playing drow PCs
I'd love to juke the players by making the first 4 issues be the PCs going through the campaign as described, sneaking into the serpentfolk city, and then finding what appear to be clones of themselves in storage right before realizing they were playing mind-wiped serpentfolk infiltrators gathering intel. They're allowed to sneak back into the city because they're coming home; they just don't know it yet.
A Memory of Darkness then flips the PCs "back" into the captives, same-level but gearless, having to escape. The Winter Council confrontation happens at the end once they fight/sneak/bluff their way out, and because the Council's uncovered the plot, but the PCs and their serpentfolk dupes emerge at the same time into a "no I'm the real one" standoff setpiece. Even leaving the door open for tables into that kind of thing to let one or more of the players remain an infiltrator dupe who pulled it off and quietly keeps trying to undermine it all.
Descent into Midnight falls into place after that, with an extra layer of paranoia frosting.
Aroden didn't die, silly. He was tragically operating under 3.5 rules when a very cocksure 12th-level witch cast baleful polymorph on him, and the poor guy rolled a Natural 1. He's a frog now, and he will only be set free when he persuades Arazni and Iomedae to smooch. The wrong must be made right.
Frog, or rabbit? Halmeni's timing is super convenient, just saying.
Despite my own personal distaste for proselytizing, I think Irori's faith could seriously do with some more activist clergy, like... training farmers to defend themselves, serving as philosopher-teachers of communities or what have you... 'cause as they generally come off when they show up at all, they just seem kinda... there.
"When you change the world, you also change yourself, and so you try to make the world a stronger place." —Faiths of Balance
Irori is also a god of history and knowledge, and an Iroran can't understand or serve either solely by sitting around practicing physical forms and mental clarity.
Some less-boring Irorans:
- The Iroran Sacred Order of Archivists defend written history from revisionists and propagandists (including those glory-seeking Pathfinders!), and were a lynchpin of Hell's Rebels.
- His nephew Gruhastha wrote Irori's biography so hard that he then became a book that also became maybe the most extremely ripped god.
- His faithful can become 900-pound celestial tigers who train mortals, and in their spare time hunt powerful creatures so they can play tag with them.
- Fleshwarps and mutants in the Mana Wastes worship Irori in pursuit of their own self-perfection, however alien the nature or process of that perfection might be to others, or if "perfection" might simply mean an easing of suffering. (Impossible Lands 309)
Now an adult, Chk Chk has become a devout worshipper of the amalgamate deity, Zon-Shelyn, and believes in channeling suffering into artistic expression.
EDIT: Or if you mean the part where Starfinder has no bearing on which deity will die, Luis Loza:
Quote:
Starfinder canon has no bearing on whether a god will live or die. If a god exists in Starfinder, it does not guarantee that they will live. If a god doesn't exist in Starfinder, it doesn't mean they are among a "short list" of gods who could die.
End of an era. Wayfinder was a big part of how I got into freelance TTRPG layout, editing, and design. A fantastic community and it was a blast being part of it.
Magic predates Nethys, he just understood it better than anybody before him. It's unlikely though, that he could *break* Magic in such a way that it would never recover.
About Ko’kquali, its description ends up being very different from Igroon
The only thing that was consistent in the descriptions and depictions of Ko'kquali in that story was that it hated dragons. The characters in the story couldn't even agree on its name, or if the "five" in it referred to eyes, teeth, or "points".
Likewise, nobody in Ready? Fight! can agree on what Igroon's appearance is ("Many reputable sources claim that Igroon’s scales can bend light in order to camouflage itself. Others insist that Igroon’s form is indeterminate").
"The Dying Wish" didn't describe Ko'kquali's teeth as being tree-like, it described the petrified grove of trees off Jalmeray as being tooth-like.
Luis' cute little fella has five pointy front-mouth teeth ("a creature only called Ko’kquali, so named for the formation of its teeth ... Ko’kquali. Five points. Not eyes") and, just for fun, a tail with antler points.
This would be awesome if it turns out to be the Ko’kquali
This line here from the Five Points: “It all reads like a prophecy,” grunted Newt, the last word dripping, poisonous.
O_O...holy INHERITOR! Could Paizo have been setting this up for YEARS? O_o
As noted elsewhere, Five Points resembles the kaiju Igroon from Ready? Fight!, who's also known as the "Dragon Eater".
Another thing that resembles Igroon is Luis Loza's "funny little picture" posted in response to his art request. Igroon is described as having lots of eyes and a jagged underbelly maw, and so does Luis's cute little guy!
Probably completely unrelated, but Igroon lives in Shenmen and I hear there's a book on Tian Xia that's coming soon.
I'm guessing that raising the Starstone from the bottom of the sea was the "test" the Starstone gave him and that since he did that successfully, Aroden "passed" it.
Same paragraph of Mythic Realms also covers this.
Mythic Realms wrote:
Aroden was the first to use this Starstone to gain the attention of gods, and in return for setting a guard against its misuse, he was elevated among the divine.
He wasn't rewarded for passing a test, he was rewarded for devising it.
When he pulled the Starstone up from the bottom of the sea, did he, for all intents and purposes, take the Test of the Starstone and become a "living god" (demigod in Paizo-speak)? Did he then do some "stuff" to ascend to "full deity" status?
Or, did he ascend straight to full godhood after raising the Starstone thus skipping over that demigod rung?
...
According to the PathfinderWiki, the Starstone raised itself
The Starstone article should be updated. The Aroden and Starstone Isles articles state that he raised it. So does the cited source of Mythic Realms, which the PathfinderWiki text mischaracterizes to suggest it was spontaneous.
Mythic Realms pg. 16:
Mythic Realms wrote:
Centuries later, Aroden, last of the Azlanti, was called to a young sea, where the heart of the lost aboleth weapon lay forgotten. He meant only to raise it from the water, but it burst from the depths as an entire island
Or, in other words, Aroden raised the Starstone and it brought the island with it.
Beginner Box Bestiary changes: (I have ommitted certain changes that are most likely made for the beginner box (like simplifying poisons) or a couple creatures that had ONLY some small numerical changes)
Usual OGL/ORC changes (off-guard sted flat-footed, force barrage sted magic missile, etc.).
Kobolds are now explicitly stated as loving traps and being related to dragons, and are no longer described as typically serving more powerful creatures.
Kobolds are slightly nerfed across the board; almost all catch -1 Fort, -1 HP. Kobold scounts defending Zolgran take AC -2.
Kobold trapmaster sets two of her three traps before combat starts.
"Harried Retreat" is renamed to "Scamper".
Descriptions of flanking specify that melee attacks benefit.
References to statues of drow are replaced with "sinister-looking humanoid snakes", in line with serpentfolk/drow changes.
Xulgaths got defensively nerfed: AC down 2, Stench DC down 3.
Ladder feather token renamed to marvelous miniature ladder.
Zolgran casts gouging claw instead of ray of frost.
Breath Weapon is renamed Poison Breath.
The now-horned dragon takes AC -2 and Will -3, -5 ft. Stride (-50 ft. fly). It gains poison immunity but its claw Strike damage drops from 2d8+4 to 2d6+4, and its poison breath DC drops by 3.
Hero's Handbook
Most changes here are to align terminology, spells, and rules options with Remaster changes.
In the Example of Play, Kyra now casts runic weapon on her scimitar instead of casting bless on the party.
The Basic Concepts cover spell ranks and adjusts text on saves.
The Human ancestry section now calls out that Attribute Modifiers can't be more than +4 during character creation.
Divine Font now provides a flat 4 extra spells a day instead of 1 + CHA.
The three Wizard schools to pick from are Ars Grammatica (replacing Abjuration), Battle Magic (replacing Evocation), and Protean Form (replacing Transmutation).
A 40 gp Magnifying Glass (situational +1 Perception) replaces the removed Material Component Pouch from the adventuring gear list.
Edicts and Anathema replace Alignment.
The pregen PDFs are now two-page spreads instead of individual pages. The layout's tweaked (notes on HP replaced with a dying/wounded tracker, defenses section is consolidated and redesigned, smaller boxes replace round bubbles for proficiency).
But also cracking up at the image of Sarenrae and Zon-Kuthon forming a defense pact together. I'm trying to picture it and my brain just scrambles itself lol.
Goths in hot weather. Sarenrae goes wild and gets a nose ring and a brow piercing. It's spring break all over again.
More off the beaten path, all wealth-domain deities:
Kofusachi: "Support local business" is an edict, they can't do that without money, and no business is more local than their own. Also, feeding all those dogs following them everywhere ain't cheap.
Laudinmio: "Are those coins gold or gold-plated? Either works for me but I'll also need a few sacks of salt along with it if they're plated. You don't mind if I dissolve these after I accept them for an experiment, right?"
Norgorber as Reaper of Reputation: Paid in secrets, obviously.
Falayna: Gotta pay for that fashionable fancy jewel-embedded armor somehow.
Notably, Urgathoa is a deity of gluttony; her sponsorship of the undead is spurred by a selfish desire to not let death stop one from consuming pleasures. Most intelligent and many corporeal forms of undeath feed on the living, and one could easily posit that Urgathoa likewise feasts on either souls or the act of removing souls from the cycle, as she had once removed herself.
In Inner Sea Gods, re: her worshipers' relationship with the Whispering Way, suggests that because intelligent Urgathoan undead like vampires and ghouls can't feed on fellow undead, they work to prevent the entirety of mortal existence from becoming undead since it would starve those who rely on mortal flesh.
So perhaps it's not that Urgathoa is a "stopper" on the world turning undead, but rather a "stopper" on the forces who would do so, as an existence entirely of undeath leaves her and her followers nothing to feast upon.
The Frozen Oath is a free scenario from the PF2 playtest about discovering a lost monument of Amatatsu Aganhei, the namesake of the Path of Aganhei, and the route he forged.
People of the North is primarily a PF1 rules options book, but it has some nice related flavor that's edition-independent, including a list of unwritten laws of combat among people in the north and some details about items and customs of Kellids in the region.
The Jarlsblood Witch Saga was a War for the Crown tie-in PFS scenario and is more Ulfen/Linnorm Kings-themed. It's set in Frostbreach, a settlement with connections to the Path of Aganhei and the site of a longstanding feud.
Adventurer's Guide has a small character blurb about Urif Flameblood, a ranger who bucks tradition and attracts outcasts from more conservative tribes while making money facilitating the movement of weapons through Icestair on Po La's behalf. I can't find another source that mentions Urif.
Someone, somewhere, did indeed have a list of spells sorted by "Changed name, same mechanics" "Changed mechanics, same name" and "Replaced by different spell" way back in the earlier days of the remaster, so the details may be sparse but there was something.
Can't seem to find it right now, but there are surely dedicated fans out there working on something like it as we speak.
There are several, but the one I tend to use is Foundry VTT's.
It's just kind of weird to me how Nethys's clerics are not wizards. It's sort of similar to how if nature is your thing, it probably makes more sense for you to be a Druid or a follower of the green faith than Gozreh worshipper.
I personally split it into mystery and mastery.
For a cleric of Nethys it isn't important, much less enough, to merely master the use of magic. Understanding the mystery of it matters.
Through practice and effort and research, anyone can master casting spells, applying arcane knowledge, or crafting magical items. But those same masters might never understand how or why they can manipulate these forces at all, or what their source is. They know how to cut the proverbial wood and form it into beautiful shapes, and even describe how the wood grows, but they can't tell you why the wood exists, what its purpose of existence is.
Faith in Nethys—like faith in many deities—is a focus on applying faith in that deity while pursuing answers to those questions. And faith specifically in Nethys is believing that a mortal can truly comprehend the answers, because one did, and the result of it was power over reality beyond the scope of every other spellcaster.
Someone who understands the metaphysical nature of the existence of a tree probably knows enough to be a passable woodworker but not a master like someone who focused on its application alone. Same with a cleric of Nethys. But they'll understand other things about magic that a wizard never can.
Has less to do with how few (or many) archdevils House Thrune has deals with or how smooth/contentious the regime change in Hell is, and more to do with the fact that it would set up a situation where everyone who wants House Thrune deposed that can even remotely spare the manpower would immediately jump at the opportunity to overthrow them, quite possibly resulting in both internal uprisings and invasion by one or more foreign states simultaneously.
I do think it'd be a fun thought experiment to think about the character of Cheliax under an archdevil who isn't Asmodeus. Where Asmodeus had a little of all of them in balance, what if one of those diabolic aspects got cranked to 11 at the expense of the rest?
Does a Mephistophelean Cheliax go even harder into diabolic contracts, into an almost Soviets-in-the-Cold-War degree of bureaucracy and paranoia over secrets? Would we get a nation run by Hellknight signifers each trying to one-up each other's magical arsenal under Baalzebub? One that conscripts the entire population and goes full-bore aggressor under Moloch?
A Geryonic Cheliax would be fascinating, a nation that's gone so far into its own rewritten past that it manifests its own lies and myths as truths rather than disbelieve them. The existing noble class of Cheliax would probably vote for Mammon's Cheliax (not that they'd get a vote).
Dispater's Cheliax might be one that looks almost reformed on the outside but disappears people on the inside, blurring the lines with Nidal a little bit further.
The only one who wouldn't sound great is Belial, who's already got Vyre and the whole "running a nation" thing would get in the way of partying. And Barbatos would just let a goat run things.
For those who weren't around for the latest Tian Xia livestream, we got a LOT of juicy details for the content in this book. Including all 3 of the remaining new ancestries!
Spoiler:
...To elaborate the last part, they draw their sword harmlessly through their teammate, and the rune that best describes the partner's personality empowers it!
I'm a big fan of Cheliax, and the death of Asmodeus would upend - if not utterly topple - House Thrune
It would be quite brave to believe that Thrune is indebted to only one major power of Hell. Or that Asmodeus hasn't done any estate planning, for that matter.
Besides, relax: it's Cheliax! If any nation in the Inner Sea region knows how to gracefully handle their patron god—upon whose powers they disproportionately rely—unexpectedly and suddenly dying, it's Cheliax! Famously stable during deific patron death chaos Cheliax!
Anyway, I'm off to go find the Ihystear. No reason. Don't worry about it!
Oh my God...all 20 of 'em. So week by week is how we're gonna find o-WAIT NO!!
There's only 10 weeks until April 16th. They're only gonna clear half the names by the time that stream goes live, if I'm doing my math right (which is questionable).
** spoiler omitted **
That, or they can reveal two gods are safe at a time going forward, saving the final reveal for the livestream.
These new dragons are very interesting and unique. But I'm curious about one thing: will there be in the new books a generic, traditional option? What should I use if I want just a 'normal' dragon, more or less 'normal' look, color, abilities (fire breath for example) and inclinations (cranky settlement razer and treasure hoarder)? Well, apart from using old chromatic ones. Which is ok, but the aim is to have a new option of the sort.
All of the chromatic and metallic dragons already statted up in Bestiaries remain mechanically compatible with the game.
These new dragons are additions as far as home games are concerned. The new dragons are here for Paizo to use and don't have to affect your home game in any way if you don't want them to.
Wait, if it's just a flesh suit then does this mean the PCs can literally do the Scooby Doo thing and rip their face off at the end to reveal that it was Old Wyrm Jynxinz trying to scare everyone away from the old keep so he could sell it to the Lumber Consortium?
Probably in the lost omens forum. I can start a thread asking the community what is the story so far for the setting?
And James can jump in to tell us we are all way off track lol.
This is precisely the type of thing that's a great community project. And I'm not really the one to jump in to tell you if you're off track anymore... that's a Luis Loza thing, since he's the creative director for the rules and lore. I'm just the creative director for adventures these days.
Since we have to do this anyway to try and maintain PathfinderWiki, I've been tracking many of them at a high level, adding to it as I come across them, at User:Oznogon/Mapping of canon changes.
We established a new policy for documenting canon changes a few weeks ago. On articles where there's been a significant canon change, we've started documenting them in detail on Meta pages; on articles where the entire subject has been retconned, we added a banner calling this out. For instance, here's Meta:Drow, where I recently included a link to this discussion and an edited version of the transcript for the video Captain Morgan referred to.
The problem is that we can only document what we know about, and what we have the time to document. Implicit canon changes that occur only through removal are difficult to spot and document. They require a comprehensive individual knowledge of not only what's current but all of what's past, and are subject to interpretations that might not reflect intent. So we often rely on forum posts and video statements from Paizo staff to clarify, which for some subjects (including this one!) are also not always timely or reliable.
So we have to do it anyway, but as an unofficial volunteer project it'll always lag behind—sometimes for years, until/unless someone finds out about the change and makes it on the wiki.
Two conspirator dragons move into a moderate-sized city at more or less the same time and start flirting with one another in their own inimitable fashion. Over the course of the next few years, the local political scene becomes very baroque indeed.
Drop them into Korvosa and see how they get on with the Arkonas.
Alas, that's a complicated and pretty much undoable ask for us at this time—the remaster wreaked havoc on our production schedule and we're still in the process of recovering and catching up to the normal flow of work, which doesn't really have much room for an official thing like this from the creative team even during standard times. :(
We're like sharks. If we stop swimming (working on creating the next products to be released) we sink and drown!
Alas, indeed. Thanks for taking the time to consider it.
