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He is trying to take way too much advantage of the feat. I can break it down more for you if you'd like (to help you learn), but my advice for you at this time:
Do not allow Leadership until you are far more comfortable as a GM. It has the potential to unbalance the game in a normal party, even before the shenanigans your player is trying to pull.
Let me know if you have any questions or would like a more in-depth look at Leadership - my campaigns use it a lot.
I hope this helps! ^_^
Some GMs just don't allow Leadership at all, because of potential abuses and odd things that can happen. As a relatively new GM, you'd be perfectly within your rights to say "we're not using leadership in this campaign". Similarly, if you think it would be disruptive, you can say "no" for that reason as well.
Also, if there are 5 PCs, there is less need for additional help (since the AP was designed with 4 in mind). The more PCs you have over 4, the less need there is for Leadership.
IF you do decide to allow Leadership, read up on it.
Older versions of the rules used to restrict Followers to NPC classes (Warriors, Adepts, Aristocrats, Experts, and Commoners); I don't see that in the current write-up, but they are still "generally 5 or more levels below" the leader, so claiming a 4th or 5th level Follower at 7th level seems out of bounds.
Some of the factors he's counting on for his super-leadership score are not really his to decide. "Great Renown" ... would likely mean being famous beyond Sandpoint (such as in Magnimar and other cities and towns around Varisia).
Treating Cohorts as "crafter slaves" is one of the potential abuses. Remembeer that the Cohorts and Followers are "people" too, and they can reject unreasonable demands. Note that the modifier for Reputation (Great Renown, Fairness and Generosity) are the opinions of the Cohort and Followers.. not necessarily the general public. If word gets around that he's a terrible boss, or a great boss, that's what this is about. He probably shouldn't be able to "buy" that.
Question right off the bat - why is the party leader 7th level and the rest of the party fifth? Or is this for when he hits 7th level?
One thing to remember is that followers are individuals and not automatons. They have their own agendas and dreams. This is as much an opportunity to insert plot hooks and side adventures as to give the PC $$$.
Also - the PC doesn't get to roll up his followers. That's the GM's job. So, right off the bat, the PC isn't going to be able to maximize his followers making magical items. In fact, if you want to want to minimize the paperwork, just use the Ultimate Campaign downtime rules.
Also, there's rules (somewhere - I think in Ultimate Campaign) that maxes out how much you can squeeze out of a small village like Sandpoint.
Also, how will such an influx of capital be viewed in Sandpoint? I seem to recall there are three major trading families in town. You're essentially creating a fourth. That's not going to go over particularly well with some people.
There's more - I'm just touching the surface. Its a pile of work for the GM to do this - the PC can do some of the basic lifting, but it all needs GM approval.
E. 2nd-level Followers (4)
Cleric, wizard and two martials who transport goods to Magnimar and profits back to Sandpoint.
4 second level characters carrying several thousand gp worth of magical items? Life expectancy less than a Second Lieutenant in Vietnam. You will make the local bandits very happy. They may even elect the PC mayor ;)
Also those magic item crafting rolls are probably not guaranteed at low levels like that (though I haven't checked the math personally).
Personally, I'm one to let a PC crash and burn if you have the time and energy to put towards it. And I seem to recall that having a follower killed is a negative to your Leadership score.
Basically, I'd let him run with it. Set everything up, then immediately run into the realities of a world that sees an easy sucker. Hit him hard, but give him enough hope so that, if he toughens it out, he'll eventually see a modest profit.
In other words, make him work for it :D
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As tempting as that is, don't blind side a player like that.
I see this more as a player trying to take advantage of an inexperienced GM. Get the player in line now or he'll be a bigger problem at higher levels.
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We aren't even sure the player has ill intentions, just that hey are possible. Best to inform them before hand and if they decide to abuse the feat, hit em hard. But the gm should give them an opportunity to be a good player before punishing someone for having the possibility of being a bad one.
Oh, i agree with that sentiment completely. I'm just suggesting possible actions for what to do should he continue to try and abuse the feat.
We should, however, keep in mind that the PC is much more experienced than the GM and is already irritated by the rest of the party's inexperience. There's no mention of the experienced player helping or mentoring the rest of the party. He may be, and he may be getting frustrated by it and letting him take leadership may be a nice bone to throw him. Or he could just be trying to railroad everyone.
His 'plan' is textbook Leadership abuse, however. My guess is that the party is on the road to being dysfunctional. There's the GM and most of the party who are happy to feel their way through the game and learn the ropes. Then there's the one player who clearly has different intentions.
Time to sit down for a chat and get on the same page. Its not just what the player wants. Its also what the rest of the party wants and what the GM is comfortable managing. Entering into the whole world world of downtime activites is a lot of background work for an inexperienced GM, even when the players are playing with the best intentions. If the one player isn't willing to come to common ground with the rest of the party then maybe its time to consider whether this is the correct fit for him.
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We aren't even sure the player has ill intentions, just that hey are possible. Best to inform them before hand and if they decide to abuse the feat, hit em hard. But the gm should give them an opportunity to be a good player before punishing someone for having the possibility of being a bad one.Oh, i agree with that sentiment completely. I'm just suggesting possible actions for what to do should he continue to try and abuse the feat.
We should, however, keep in mind that the PC is much more experienced than the GM and is already irritated by the rest of the party's inexperience. There's no mention of the experienced player helping or mentoring the rest of the party. He may be, and he may be getting frustrated by it and letting him take leadership may be a nice bone to throw him. Or he could just be trying to railroad everyone.
His 'plan' is textbook Leadership abuse, however. My guess is that the party is on the road to being dysfunctional. There's the GM and most of the party who are happy to feel their way through the game and learn the ropes. Then there's the one player who clearly has different intentions.
Time to sit down for a chat and get on the same page. Its not just what the player wants. Its also what the rest of the party wants and what the GM is comfortable managing. Entering into the whole world world of downtime activites is a lot of background work for an inexperienced GM, even when the players are playing with the best intentions. If the one player isn't willing to come to common ground with the rest of the party then maybe its time to consider whether this is the correct fit for him.
Very well said. ^_^
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You should never allow crafting cohorts. Just don't. It's a terrible idea. They will use it to break the wealth by level curve and will destroy the campaign with no semblance of challenge.
If he actually has a problem with his party being under optimized, ask him to help others redo their characters to be better mechanically if that's what they would like. If everyone else isn't interested in that, then tell him that this is just going to be a different style of game where optimization isn't necessary. As a GM it's completely within your power to set the level of challenge by adjusting the strength of the enemies the group encounters. What is important that all players feel like their characters are contributing relatively equally, otherwise bad feelings tend to develop.
Also, the modifiers to his leadership score aren't that important overall. It's more important to remember a companion can never be higher than two levels below his leader.
It mostly seems like your player is trying to strong arm you into allowing this. But honestly, a crafting cohort is something that falls into the category of "should never be allowed". In a party of 5, leadership should generally never be allowed as there are already enough characters. The only thing I could see with this particular party is that they don't have an arcane spell caster who can help the party overcome a lot of situations. I might consider allowing him to have a non-crafting arcane caster companion, but only because they lack someone in that role.
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Also remember that cohorts are still their own people, with their own thoughts, goals, and motivations - just slathered with Loyalty Sauce.
The sorceress* who shows up to idolize him might not be too keen on learning to craft belts for everyone. (Seriously, even if you do go ahead with Leadership, no Crafting cohorts.)
I would also keep the followers to NPC classes such as expert, warrior, or commoner; he isn't entitled to a mob of clerics and wizards.
*With a player like this, a spontaneous caster would be best, so he doesn't micromanage/hyper-optimize their spell loadout.
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Also remember that cohorts are still their own people, with their own thoughts, goals, and motivations - just slathered with Loyalty Sauce.
The sorceress* who shows up to idolize him might not be too keen on learning to craft belts for everyone. (Seriously, even if you do go ahead with Leadership, no Crafting cohorts.)
I would also keep the followers to NPC classes such as expert, warrior, or commoner; he isn't entitled to a mob of clerics and wizards.
*With a player like this, a spontaneous caster would be best, so he doesn't micromanage/hyper-optimize their spell loadout.
This is some good advice. Followers are generally meant to be NPC classes only, adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, or warrior.
And making the arcane caster a sorcerer is probably wise, just to avoid too much time spent on spell management.
A PC character taking leadership doesn't get to decide everything about a character. Generally, it would be best if leadership is used with NPCs that already exist in the game world, selecting a character that already exists in Sandpoint in this case. However, if that is not suitable then it is reasonable that the PC would put out "fliers" to attract a general kind of person to them. "Arcane Spell Caster Wanted!". But doesn't get to specify races, feats, traits etc to make a hyper optimized companion.
OP:
A. Take Kalindlara's advice
2. Work on the issues your group and this player are having
D. ALWAYS know what you are saying "yes" to, when a player asks for something...read, research, read some more
D. ALWAYS know what you are saying "yes" to, when a player asks for something...read, research, read some more
The current GM in my game has said "no" to me more often than "yes". He's said "yes" to me on some really cool things - like letting me run a tavern so I can make a little extra gp to scribe spells into my spellbook, and that at 14th level I could have a 2nd level apprentice (which was an awakened hawk - but that's another story).
Related to that, the statting out of the hawk was a combined effort. I did the original sheet and he amended it. One of the things he amended was the choice of school for the hawk. I wanted enchantment, he selected Divination. It's cool either way.
Also, he's taken back a few things that were game-breaking. One was the feat in the Occult Player Companion that gifted you additional metamagic feats if you found an associated prime number. OMG that was broken. It went away after a session or two. lol.
Ok lets see.... quick point by point to his outline.
Great Renown? not for being a "Hero of (insert name of podunk backwoods small town here)." When your name is on the lips of people all over Magnimar... then PERHAPS...
Fairness and Generosity? So... you want to start giving out gold to citizens in this small town. Ok. That is a start. A small start. I would say it would take YEARS of giving on that small level to get you the fairness and generosity bonus. Talk to me when you have paid for a second Cathedral, or settled a major trade dispute that threatened to engulf the area in war or some such. Quit thinking small. These followers will have to be drawn from a much larger area than just Sandpoint. When your name is spoken with high regard all over the region, THEN you are in the right ballpark for these bonuses.
Special Power - There is already a Sandpoint Mercantile League. If you try to take it over, or set up a competing interest, then you will set yourself at odds with at LEAST Five MAJOR Magnimarian noble families, and frankly you don't have the juice to even HOPE to come out on top of that scrum. Also, do you expect to put this plan in action and still adventure? Because this alone is the work of an entire lifetime... day and night.
A workshop in Sandpoint is not a base of operations. Do you mean a factory? You will need living spaces for your followers, storage, etc. You are talking a place bigger than the Glassworks for sure. it will likely be the biggest building in Sandpoint other than the cathedral... or perhaps the theater. This will NOT be cheap, especially once you look at the cost of stocking it with tools and equipment for whatever you want them to do. Several Thousands of gold at least.
Wizard Cohort... ok. You want a 5th level guy following you around and crafting wands... but also being part of combat. Remember... a 5th lv. wizard has on average like what... 15 - 20 HP on average? One 7th lv fireball and your guy is embers. And he is expected to just craft stuff for you? That is what you want from him? I am sure he wants more than just to be your craftsman. he wants to learn from you, study at your feet. You had better take time to make it worth his while or he wont stay with you. He is a person with wants and needs of his own, not just some extra spell slots for you to tap.
Now... I see that all the followers have PC levels. Thats a big No. Almost all your followers should be NPC classes. Warrior, Adept, Commoner, Expert. Also, as stated above you should have fewer of them because there is no way you have ALL the conceivable bonuses.
The section you list as Profit Margins does not take into account ANY overhead. In the arrangement outlined hear you get ALL the fruits of their labors, and provide them with little more than a building to work in. You need room and board. They will expect you to teach them and help them grow as casters. They are people who follow you NOT because "hey I took a feat!" but because of personal reasons. Many probably expect it is the best way to learn more magic, or advance their faith or whatever. Some expect there will be a good payday at the end of it. Some just perhaps want the safety of being aligned with a power player. But ultimately they all expect something in return. THESE ARE NOT JUST NUMBERS IN A SPREAD SHEET THEY ARE PEOPLE!
you expect them ALL to have hedge magician? you don't get to choose your followers! You don't get to build them! It doesn't work that way.
Free spell casting services - so you want them to spend all day every day crafting magic items for you, AND to be available to cast spells for pay... and you get the gold for that? This is unreasonable and just basic power-gaming.
All in all, once he realizes that there is more responsibility in the leadership feat than payout, he will abandon the idea.
Interesting thoughts and advice but perhaps there is a misunderstanding of the Leadership (as written of course). I believe the following is correct:
as the feat clearly says, DIFFERENT modifiers for cohorts or followers; so NOT 40 1st level followers, but rather 20 lev 1, 2 lev 2, and 1 level3 (and no followers above 3rd). His Leadership score for his cohort is 17 (stronghold bonus is for followers, not cohorts), his score for his followers is 15 (doesn't get the cohort modifiers). Hence the 20, 2 and 1 limits.
This softens the potential impact right away, and there was some great advice in this thread about the impact of a sudden influx of people/crafters of various sorts on a local populace and economy (I am not sure of the size of Sandpoint, I confess), and the money they can generate.
Note the feat also says he may "recruit" his cohort- so he should absolutely be able to seek the cohort he wants, BUT the more specific he is for his cohort's features, the farther afield he will need to go and more time and travel he will need to spend to find them!
And you were wisely advised in this thread about the impact of crafting feats, though personally as long as you adhere to the PC Wealth by Level limits and further cohort rules and guidelines in the Ultimate Campaign book you will be fine (though even then, I strongly advise no more than 1 crafting feat for the cohort, or none if you don't abide by the level limits and Ultimate Campaign cohort stuff!). We apply any items crafted to the Wealth by PC Level limits of the pc or npc receiving the item, which may not technically be as per the rules dictate IIRC, but its worked in our campaigns.
Anyway, With these rules, cohorts have not been a problem in the campaigns i've run or played in. Also, cohorts get gear based on their level from the NPC table (NOT the PC Wealth by Level table), and in your campaign the cohort's starting stats should be for the "Basic NPC" rather than the "Heroic NPC," as the latter would have the same 15 point buy your PCs used! The Basic NPC stats further limit the power of a level 5 cohort (and makes them more vulnerable, as was also wisely noted in this thread!).
I also believe the Special Power should not be tied to mundane authority (except at the highest levels, i.e. kings/queens/or barons at the least, perhaps guildmasters of large, country/region spanning guilds. Doesn't seem very special otherwise. We apply it to powers gained during adventuring (or broad based rulership/economic reach as above).
Worth noting that as written or intended, followers are NOT restricted to NPC classes. Since your PCs started with a 15 point buy and if your cohort uses the "Basic NPC" stats, you may want to follow the wise advice in this thread about limiting followers to NPC classes.
DEFINITELY read Ultimate Campaign guidelines on cohorts and followers; and the Cohorts and Companions book has some good info as well.
Also, by rule, only PCs get traits. NPCs must burn a feat to get traits, so keep that in mind with regard to Hedge Magician trait.
Ultimately, the experienced player should know that 48 followers for a level 7 PC would be ridiculous, and the feat does NOT allow for that. Even 23 plus the cohort may be too much, especially for a new GM.
S
hare that with him, and if you decide to do it- as others have said, they don't instantaneously appear, especially the cohort, and followers above 1st level IMO! Seeking cohorts with specific class features AND craft feats is problematic enough and time consuming. Finding followers with craft feats, much rarer still (it's not a poor person's game after all, where do they get the gp!?). And at 1 level 3 follower with the correct read of the Leadership table, the impact is further limited for crafters.
Lastly, worth noting that technically the player is going according to the rules, in that he is putting forward this outline to the GM for a ruling (page 143 Ultimate Campaign), but the GM must clarify what is really possible. He can ask, and its even understandable that his initial ask is unreasonable (heck why start low?), though its a bit much since he knows you are semi-new to GMing. But you can correct his mistakes (level 15, not 19, score for # of followers, etc.), which should get his attention, and explain the limitations in finding such specific followers, especially if the local population is relatively small (what is Sandpoints size?). He is simply incorrect on some stuff and ignoring other stuff (for example, where do all these NPCs get the startup $ for crafting? :') The PC initially, limiting the PCs gear options for himself. Dangerous. And ongoing Financing should include follower housing, housing and workshop upkeep, etc. Does the PC want to adventure or run a business? The latter doesnt kill as often, but can be equally heartbreaking. ;')
Most of each NPCs current wealth will be in gear (else their coin would be stolen!), so they ain't financing nuthin'! And where are they all housed? 10 druids (if the PC could even have that many, which he cannot due to leadership score 15 for followers) want to be in or very near nature, not holed up in the equivalent of a Third World sweatshop crafting away simply to sell, instead of protect and serve nature!
And what does the local church think about someone hiring away their cleric acolytes, even if of the same alignment? Conflict there! And these devout clerics might want to spread the word instead of working in the sweatshop.
As was pointed out in this thread, in other words, these are all individuals. Adding on that, though warrior classes may be content to be simply hired guards or the like (may!), spellcasters, with highly specialized education and training, will ESPECIALLY have more complex goals, devotions, and responsibilities. A cleric or druid follower (or cohort) doesn't revere their Leadership feat leader, they revere their deity/nature, and simply have a lot of respect for their Leader. A wizard/etc. has an intellectual curiosity for the arcane, and doesnt want to simply churn out magic items.
As for the cohort- with the basic stat spread the cohort better pray a foe doesn't see the cohort sniping with his wand, or worse, that smart or particularly mobile foes dont't have some of their forces circle to flank the PCs and then come upon the cohort, slaying or capturing the cohort. That'll dent the old Leadership score!
Definitely read Ultimate Campaign and Cohorts and Companions sourcebooks for keeping on top of how to oversee this. If you take the benefits of the Leadership feat, you also must deal with the complexities and drawbacks of it- least of which is gathering enough gold to initially pay them, THEN fund any initial crafting you want them to do! (Though in my campaign I don't let cohorts or followers craft just to generate $. NPCs with class levels especially would find this particularly tedious, IMO.
Heh. One player in my campaign a few years back wanted "themed" followers from the leadership feat: All barbarians, to make his own barbarian horde with him as their Khan.
His horde was especially problematic during its "downtime" and/or when his PC was adventuring/out of touch.
Due to the (incredibly fun, I admit) inevitable chaos, eventually he had to release them as followers, including his cohort.
And give up much of his wealth to pay damages to the towns (yes plural) and countryside.
His PC was a Leader, but apparently not much of a manager. :')
He was an very "experienced player" so he got to "experience" the ramifications of a "hands-off" management style.
Just to let him know I wasn't being difficult, I occasionally polled the other players to let him know they thought my more unfortunate rulings for the results of his choices were basically common sense.
The player still laughs about his horde when we chat.
Since you are a semi-new GM I wouldn't advise letting your PC be "hoist by his own petard," however. Might hurt his ego. Discuss it ahead of time and let him know the correct interpretation of the feat, and how it will be played in your campaign (if you allow it).
I still laugh thinking about the "Headless Horde" though, as they too often were exactly that, and acted accordingly (if not maliciously).
There's also a Player Companion devoted to this topic:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9e1c?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Cohorts-Comp anions
Its a good read.