Elghinn Lightbringer's page

Asuet wrote:

The thing is, you can find that playstyle already in other classes. Want to make a crusader who roots out evil? Make a LG fighter and roleplay him being a zealot to fight the enemies of the church. Just one of many examples. You don't need smite for that.

I will vehemently oppose any suggestions that lock out modes of play because someone wants to keep toys to themselves.

What you're saying is "My way of playing a paladin is the one true way, and if you don't like it go play another class or whatever." That's not a healthy outlook.

I want to play a Paladin who can smite evil. You want to play a paladin that can "tank". What's wrong with allowing both? Customization is Pathfinder's entire thing.

Also, it's inherently unsatisfying to tell someone who wants to play a paladin to kick evil butt "Oh, no, paladins are tanks only. If you want to deal damage roll up a fighter and pretend it does holy damage and stuff."

I've played D&D (1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E) and Pathfinder for years. Choice and customization is what the game is all about. We all want to play what we want to play, and when we couldn't we altered rules so we could. When it comes to paladins, I see them as first, protectors, taking the brunt in battle protecting those who can't or saving their companions, second as evil smiting champions of good, and heroic and charismatic leaders influencing and bolstering their companions. That's the options I want to have. As it sits, the paladin isn't right (yet). That's what the playtest is for.

If I choose to play a paladin, I better be able to protect my friends, giving even the ultimate sacrifice to do so, strike down the BBEG for the good of all, and lead and bolster my companions or forces to victory against the forces of evil.

They need to find a happy median between PF1E version and what they are trying to create here. Perhaps Retributive Strike should be an option within a base class feature that allows that as a choice, and a more overt proactive type of strike like Smite was. They should be able to have both, but allow for choice and customization for those who want to be the big tank protector or a demon destroying smiter. Perhaps something like the initial PF1E Mythic Paths where you can chose from 3 choices, and can gain the others later on as they level up?

Three options
-Evil smiter (something akin to smite)
-Protector (retributive strike)
-Inspiring hero (companion booster)

Just to toss in my two cents. I think the idea of a Paladin being the Paragon and Defender of its Alignment sounds very interesting and fun. A Paladin doesn't just worship a Deity, they worship what the deity stands for. A Paladin of Asmodeous would worship the idea of following the law as written and using it to achieve your goals. Just as a Paladin of Shelyn worships the beauty and creativity of art. A Cleric follows and preaches the teachings, a Paladin defends and embodies what the Deity stands for.

Again, these are just my thoughts on what I would like to see as someone who didn't play Paladins that often but preferred playing the Antipaladins.

This

Well, from the previews the Paladin is LG only in the playtest because it is the most iconic and they want to get it right. The finished game will have all of the other alignments so-called pallies. (I say that, because to me paladins aren't servants of deities, they worship lawful good deities because that is what lawful good people do, but in the end they are paladins because they are heroic, chivalrous,and dedicated to good. They don't owe their power to any deities. Can any deity have divine warriors/champions? yes but these aren't necessarily paladins)

I like this conceptualization. Perhaps this is the approach Paizo should take in creating the paladin and any other alternate alignment "paladins".

Before a paladin becomes a paladin they are already by nature and heart the epitome of LG-heroic, chivalrous, and dedicated to good. As such, a deity has taken notice of him, and makes him a paladin.

As a cleric is a dedicated religious person who chooses to worship a god and gains powers for doing so. That's the difference.

Clerics choose the god and follow, paladins are chosen by the gods because of their character, and are blessed with special powers. And so, for each alignment type of paladin, they should be seen as a chosen champion of that alignment who has a deific benefactor.

My thoughts on the paladin class:

Paladins are and should be LG only, period. They are historically and typically seen as the divine champion of LG deities, and they should remain that way. Why, because whether people like them or not, they are special champions of a LG god, and always have been. Just like antipaladins should only be CE champions of a CE god. Those are the two extremes. They should remain special instead of being clumped together under the name "paladin".

That said, I have always liked and agreed with the idea of other alignment "paladins". I think they should follow the old 1E D&D approach (Dragon Magazine 106) or 3.5E (Dragon Magazine 310 & 312), and give other aligned "paladins" a different name. Yes it's semantics, not right or wrong, it's just my opinion. Paladin for LG, Antipaladin for CE.

Now, we don't need to necessarily go with a name for every alignment of "paladin", like they did in the original Plethora of Paladins article (Dragon Mag 106) or the later Paladins of Other Alignments and Blackguards article (Dragon Mag 310 & 312). But they could, because these "champions" of gods of other alignments are just as unique, or should be. I prefer the names used in Dragon MAgs 310 & 312 (Sentinel-NG, Avenger-CG, Enforcer-LN, Incarnate-N, Anarch-CN, Despot-LE, Corruptor-NE), though I am partial to the old ones too from Drag Mag 106 (Myrikhan, Gareth, Lyan, Paramander, Fantra, Illrigger, and Arrikhan). But they may have copyright issues.

Since they are using feats to establish powers for the classes, all they need to do is create a base "paladin" class for the other alignments: good (NG or CG, as Paladins are LG), neutrals (LN, N, CN) and evils (only NE or LE, as Antipaladins should still be only CE). This would save creative space. Then add in different feats to create your different paladins, with unique and varied abilities.

We already have one name for other evil "paladins" that can be used, Blackguard. Any LE or NE "paladin" would be under this name. Sentinel or Guardian for NG and CG, and Equalizer or something for LN, N, and CN.

The point is, everyone needs to stop making "Paladin" the name used as the catchall for "paladins" of other alignments. Paladins are and always have been a unique class, and the other aligned "paladins" should be given the same consideration, because they are worth it. I'd rather be able to play NG or CN "paladin" with unique abilities and name than just be a Paladin with a different alignment.

Paizo has the opportunity to make a true impact on the idea of different alignment paladins, and create unique classes for them based of the alignment's outlook, new abilities, and different niches, to make them as lovable and playable as the regular paladin.

Last comment. I love paladins, they are my favorite class. But I also love the idea of other aligned divine champions, and they should be given the same love and attention in creation and playability as the standard paladin. SO, I am both pro Paladin (leave them alone) and pro Divine Champions of other alignments (make them unique, and fun to play).

Sweet! They're calling it Multiclass Archetypes huh? I wonder if someone came up with an idea with that name before? I want to see Paladin/Cleric, Ranger/Cleric, Wizard/Alchemist, and Rogue/Sorcerer Multiclass Archetype options.

Finally

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Just because magical armor now adds bonuses to saves and AC, plus touch AC, does not mean that there isn't still rings of protections for wizards, or cloaks of resistance either. I think there will be options to be able to customize your character with different configurations of items to meet your item needs. However there may still be the restrictions of can't being able to combine like bonuses. The nice thing is that is gives armor wearers a free cloak and ring slot to use instead of worrying about rings of prot and cloaks of resistance. What I'd like to see is the possibility of enchanting any item (perhaps at a higher cost than the standard item) with any enchantment you want. So, a helm of resistance, a ring of true seeing, a cloak of water walking, or boots of protection +3. Mind you, it is nice being able to assume the general uses of a particular item via their slot (movement for boots, etc). We'll see what they do. They'll make changes, but will also want to keep things as familiar to PF1E as possible so its not a total relearn of everything.

Sorry but they stated they are removing rings & cloaks of protection. Bracers of Armor are still in the game but this is a huge drop off the cliff unless they make the chance of bracers show up around the same time you get low grade magical armor. This was never the case in 3.0/3.5 or pathfinder. Bracers of armor were ridiculously expensive for what they did.

Then I am sad, because that limits not expands the possibilities in the game.

Just because magical armor now adds bonuses to saves and AC, plus touch AC, does not mean that there isn't still rings of protections for wizards, or cloaks of resistance either. I think there will be options to be able to customize your character with different configurations of items to meet your item needs. However there may still be the restrictions of can't being able to combine like bonuses. The nice thing is that is gives armor wearers a free cloak and ring slot to use instead of worrying about rings of prot and cloaks of resistance. What I'd like to see is the possibility of enchanting any item (perhaps at a higher cost than the standard item) with any enchantment you want. So, a helm of resistance, a ring of true seeing, a cloak of water walking, or boots of protection +3. Mind you, it is nice being able to assume the general uses of a particular item via their slot (movement for boots, etc). We'll see what they do. They'll make changes, but will also want to keep things as familiar to PF1E as possible so its not a total relearn of everything.

Just to double check Elghinn, these were the MCAs I provided the idea for which you and others helped with?

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Nature Whisperer (Druid/Bard)
Astute Sentry (Fighter/Ranger)
Espial Voyageur (Investigator/Bard)
Persona Shifter (Investigator/Sorcerer)
Vicious Conniver (Investigator/Antipaladin)
Star Speaker (Oracle/Shaman)
Blackthorn (Rogue/Druid)
Shrine Maiden (Shaman/Cleric)
Grim Seeker (Slayer/Inquisitor)
Arcane Observer (Wizard/Investigator)
Twilight Guard (Wizard/Paladin)

Think so!

Wizard primary MCAs are up and linked.

Uploading and linking complete, except for a few that need to be completed.

Witch primary MCAs are up and linked.

I played a Lizardfolk Dreadnaught in a Sunless Citadel PbP here on the Paizo boards. Was quite good, and fun. He added Barbarian at 2nd level, and then the game ended.

I also played a Warforged Dreadnaught in a short-lived Eberron PbP campaign.

And then there was a Human Physiomorph Marauder, though that game, although it had an awesome premise (young students caught up in an invasion of their city) petered out fairly quickly. I will say that the Fort check to transform should probably be completely excised - it's no fun not only failing to use your signature ability but being weakened into the bargain!

Changed it to this.

Mutagenic Form (Su): At 1st level, a physiomorph marauder can heighten his physical prowess at the cost of his personality. As a standard action, the physiomorph marauder can force his body to mutate, growing bulkier and more bestial, and granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +4 alchemical bonus to one physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution) of his choice, for a number of minutes per day equal to 1 per physiomorph marauder level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive. In addition, while in this mutagenic form, the physiomorph marauder takes a –2 penalty to one of his mental ability scores. If the physiomorph marauder enhances his Strength, it applies a penalty to his Intelligence. If he enhances his Dexterity, it applies a penalty to his Wisdom. If he enhances his Constitution, it applies a penalty to his Charisma. Once the physiomorph marauder's transformation ends, he is nauseated for 1 minute. This ability replaces bonus feat at 1st level.

I feel like I should start with this. Every decision I make for a character, practical or not, is driven by how cool I think it would be. Not how much damage I can deal in a single blow, or how I can cheese the hell out of something. I've done some really dumb things because I thought they were cool. I'm also a relatively new player, so I may be very wrong about much of this, so feel free to take anything I say with a grain of salt.

I love the idea of the multiclass archetypes. One I thought I'd like would be the Bonded Warmage, but, and this is probably going to sound really stupid and whiny, because I know the Summoner is a gamebreaker, so I'm sure the Bonded Warmage can break the game too, but I dislike how it works a lot.

Sure, your eidolon summons faster, but you can't keep him out indefinitely and you get less evolution points, though I only need to spend three feats for the dragon mount build I came up with, which is a modified dragon template. The thing that drove me to check it out was the thought of a Magus riding on the back of a dragon, spellstriking enemies with a polearm of some kind, or spell combat on the back of a dragon. Or just flying around on a freaking dragon, because they're awesome. I do like the idea of delivering touch spells with my eidolon, and the capstone they get, but those are the only things I especially like all that much about it.

My Draconic Eidolon build
Base - Quadruped
Primary Evolutions - Claws, Tail, Sting (better than tail slap)
Secondary Evolutions - Wing Buffet, Mount, Flight
Immunity, Blindsense, Breath Weapon, Spell Resistance, Fast Healing

Thanks for the feedback.

I played a Lizardfolk Dreadnaught in a Sunless Citadel PbP here on the Paizo boards. Was quite good, and fun. He added Barbarian at 2nd level, and then the game ended.

I also played a Warforged Dreadnaught in a short-lived Eberron PbP campaign.

And then there was a Human Physiomorph Marauder, though that game, although it had an awesome premise (young students caught up in an invasion of their city) petered out fairly quickly. I will say that the Fort check to transform should probably be completely excised - it's no fun not only failing to use your signature ability but being weakened into the bargain!

Good feedback. Yeah, if you can't use your signature ability, that sucks. Using up your resource is one thing, not being able to use it because of a roll isn't.

The dreamweaver's apparition link does not work...

Fixed! Must have missed linking the doc.

Warpriest primary MCAs are up and linked.

Guys, this isn't meant to be the thread for suggestions or ideas for new MCAs, but a forum to discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of particular MCAs people have played or used over the years. This would provide feedback for us to see whether there are any changes or teaks we need to do to particular MCAs.

The new MCA creation and suggestion thread is MCAs XI - Resurgence. I'm not wanting to curb your enthusiasm for creating Occult MCAs, but the othe thread is where that is taking place. In fact, they were talking about Occult MCAs a bit ago.

Thanks!

So many many thanks Elghinn. I noticed after my initial look that you have collated many of the roughs discussed but perhaps never fully examined or expanded. So many classic tropes, specific concepts and imaginative ideas explored. Keep up the good work. If I can help I'll let you know. Sending you a PM...

Still a few to finish up that were never done (I think, need to check my docs).

Mutant Interrogator (Inq/Alc; mutagen focus)
Clandestined Enforcer (Rog/Inq) - yours?
Foe Harrier (Rgr/Inq)
Black Powder Witch (Wit/Gun)
Keening Soul (Wit/Brd)
Pistol Witch (Wit/Gun)
Wilder Mage (Wiz/Rgr)

I also did the Auric Warrior (Ora/Ftr) and Mythic Venturer (Ora/Rgr), which may have been your concepts originally. Take a look and anything that needs to be changed can be.

Summoner and Swashbuckler primary MCAs are up and linked.

Skald, Slayer, and Sorcerer primary MCAs are up and linked.

I agree with Mark Hoover 330. You need to have the players invest in the campaign. In my games I always had my characters write up a back story, including fears, goals, even wish lists of items. Create your campaign story to incorporate directly or on the side stuff from those backgrounds. Always start with a way to thrust the players together, forcing them to work together which them makes them quickly learn to rely on each other and work together.

Its also good to ask what your players would like to do (as said by Indagare), and use various terrains, areas, and races within the story as well. Play on any fears the players may have.

The Hard Korr Inn and Tavern: Used in some old campaigns, and included in a novel I'm working on, the Hard Korr Inn and Tavern is located in a corrupt large town called "Little Sin" (CN); a community created as a center for criminal to flee to where they are essentially left alone by the law, unless they cross beyond its boarders. The Hard Korr Inn and Tavern, located in a dangerous warren of the town, is a welcoming place for all races and types to get a good drink, great food for all tastes, and rest. Owned by its proprietor, a Rusty brown furred Minotaur named Korr (LN), he uses quicklings (part of the family business for 4 generations) as servers who wear strength belts to able to do their job. Bouncers are tough and unrelenting, even Korr gets involved in ejecting ruffians from his establishment.

In addition to the Tavern and Inn, Korr has established a band of law enforcers (LG/LN) who protect the warren the Tavern is in. Called the Konstabulls, its a group of Minotaurs who patrol and protect a 12 block area around the Tavern from criminals, extortionists, gangs, etc. Most lucrative part of the city, so other businesses are eager to relocate into the warren.

What I'd like to hear are who has played what MCAs, and how they performed.

Shaman primary MCAs are up and linked.

Nik's Nook: A small but well run tavern and inn in a coastal or lakeside. The owner and proprietor is a gnome named Nik, with a barmaid named Marlee and a cook in the back. The place is down on it's luck due to a sailor or lakefarer gang taking the establishment over as their watering hole. This has driven out the regular customers and their antics drive new guests away from staying.

Nik offers good food and all manner of alcohol (whiskey, wine, brandy, even elf wines and dwarven spirits), but also water or goats milk for paladins, clerics, and others who choose to abstain from alcohol. Ordering goats milk is a good little hook for the heroes/players to get into a brawl with the gang leader. If the gang is defeated, the tavern returns to its previous prosperity and locals comeback, newcomers start returning as well.

If the heroes have cash, Nik is willing to partner up to get his place going again, resulting in a good monthly return to the investors once the gang is removed. Investors may even choose to fund additional hires (more barmaids, assistant cook, good bouncers, etc) which will also increase the place's prosperity and reputation.

Rogue and Samurai primary MCAs are up and linked.

Which class uses the Extra Eldritch Blast feat?

It's the Eldritch Warlock (Sorcerer/Witch). Just added it to the community site. Haven't gotten to the Sorcerer MCAs yet.

Hey Elghinn, good to see you posting this.

Looks like you've been hard at work uploading and entering lots of the originally created MCA's - it's almost as full as the old wiki!

Well, I'd really like to see how many people actually use our stuff out there. I think its more than we think.

Bohdan and Von, I have created a thread for MCA discussion as per Bohdan's suggestion. If you would be so kind as to copy/paste your discussion here to the new thread as an opening discussion, that would be great!

MCA Campaign Discussion Thread

As requested, I am creating this thread for the soul purpose of fans, players, and GM's that use the Multiclass Archetypes in their campaigns as a place to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the plethora of MCAs that have been developed.

For ease of access, I am putting a link to the Multiclass Archetypes page of the Pathfinder Community site.

And so, let the discussions begin. We look forward to seeing how our creations have been included in campaigns and inspired players and GM's alike. Good gaming!

Ranger primary MCAs are up and linked.

Paladin primary MCAs are up and linked.

Ninja primary MCAs are up and linked.

Monk primary MCAs are up and linked.

Magus primary MCAs are up and linked.

Investigator primary MCAs are up and linked.

Inquisitor primary MCAs are up and linked.

Hunter primary MCAs are up and linked.

Hey Byrd. Been busy so haven't been able to update more MCAs on the new site. Hopefully I can over the next few weeks.

Great post Derrick Winters. Those are my thoughts exactly.

One of the big things to remember about playing a paladin is, that while they are required to be Lawful Good, their code only punishes them for doing something evil, not chaotic (opposite of law), which shows that "good" is the primary aspect of the alignment. A paladin is always striving to do the greatest good for all, generally within the structure of the law. That said, a paladin can break the law or do something chaotic or less lawful if the circumstance warrants it. Like the situations mentioned above, a paladin will walk the moral razor edge, ensuring that the greatest good for all is done. Also, when it comes to laws, I believe that his own moral "law" or the edicts of his deity over rule the laws of man/the land in which he lives, especially in difficult moral dilemmas. He has first and foremost, a responsibility to his own moral code, since it was likely what made him a paladin in the first place. If he can't made a decision based on that, then he relies on the edicts and guidance of his deity. If that doesn't work, then the laws of the land, as long as they are not corrupt and evil, can guide him/her as well.

Can you do a wizard/investigator hybrid. I like the specialized school and inspiration features. Thanks.

This is not the Multiclass Archetypes creation thread. I don't create them anymore, I'm just putting up the MCAs from our old Wiki onto the new site.

If you want to create new MCAs, then go to this thread MultiClass Archetypes XI: Resurgence

PLEASE, NO ONE REQUEST MCAs TO BE CREATED HERE. THIS IS JUST A INFORMATION THREAD INFORMING WHEN CERTAIN MCAs HAVE BEEN POSTED ON THE NEW WEBSITE.

THANKYOU

what are multiclass archtypes? is this home brew stuff?

Multiclass Archetypes are essentially Hybrid Classes, but we started doing them on mass before Pathfinder started doing them (though the Magus was the first one out at the time)/

And yes, they are homebrew.

Gunslinger primary MCAs are up and linked.

Fighter primary MCAs are up and linked.

Druid primary MCAs are up and linked.

Cleric primary MCAs are up and linked.

Dragonar, God of Battle Dragons
Alignment Chaotic Good
Domains Air, Chaos, Good, Knowledge, Scalykind, War
Worshippers Good and neutral dragons, half-dragons, warriors
Favored Weapon Bladed gauntlet
Symbol Armored dragon claw

Cavalier primary MCAs are up and linked.

Has anyone done some kind of vigilante/barbarian He-Man class?

Vigilante anything hasn't been done. Can always build one on the actual MCA thread that is still going HERE.

This is just an announcement thread, so feel free to wander over to the other thread and go build something.

Bloodrager and Brawler primary MCAs are up and linked.