but would the mutagen class ability work for an alchemist lich?
but would the mutagen class ability work for an alchemist lich?Why not? Potions still work for a lich, after all. Of course... the constitution-enhancing mutagen is a poor choice for a lich...
Especially since has a CHA penalty....
Especially since has a CHA penalty....but would the mutagen class ability work for an alchemist lich?Why not? Potions still work for a lich, after all. Of course... the constitution-enhancing mutagen is a poor choice for a lich...
On the other hand a Cha Cognatogen is great as there's no con to reduce.
But aren't undeads immune to ability damage anyways?
Especially since has a CHA penalty....but would the mutagen class ability work for an alchemist lich?Why not? Potions still work for a lich, after all. Of course... the constitution-enhancing mutagen is a poor choice for a lich...On the other hand a Cha Cognatogen is great as there's no con to reduce.
But aren't undeads immune to ability damage anyways?
mutagens and cognatogens don't do ability damage
They should be. But who knows you might not be able to use the Cognatogen if you can't take the downside. Kind of like you can;t take burn if you are immune to ability damage.
Especially since has a CHA penalty....but would the mutagen class ability work for an alchemist lich?Why not? Potions still work for a lich, after all. Of course... the constitution-enhancing mutagen is a poor choice for a lich...On the other hand a Cha Cognatogen is great as there's no con to reduce.
But aren't undeads immune to ability damage anyways?
It isn't damage, it is a penalty. Nothing to heal- once the mutagen wears off, the damage is gone.
What? Did you think that an alchemist could use mutagens until they are knocked unconscious? That would make it a very poor class feature indeed, since it would make it 1/2 days early on since you ahve to wait for the scores to heal (and you don't want to shut down your own spells)
There are basically three seperate ways to reduce ability scores:
Penalty
Damage
Drain
Penalty is typically temporary. It lasts as long as the effect causing it lasts (..typically)
Damage heals over time. Undead are immune to ability damage to their physical scores.
Drain is permanent. Undead are immune to all ability drain, both to physical and mental scores.
The rules says that penalties function like ability damage with the difference that are timed and cannot reduce the stat below 1. So if for the other interactions they work as ability damage, then it may also mean that undeads are immune.
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The rules says that penalties function like ability damage with the difference that are timed and cannot reduce the stat below 1. So if for the other interactions they work as ability damage, then it may also mean that undeads are immune.
Hard to say.
While it says it functions like damage, that could only refer to its effects on stats and how that is carried over to everything else. It takes a (small) bit of stretching when it comes to applying that logic to how creature type and special ability effects work out (especially since we are dealing with the CRB, which sets out to explain all of the various systems- the language could be similar to the 'can non monks do headbutts?' confusion with phrases meant for clarity, rather than farther reaching effect)
Essentially, does the immunity only cover what it explicitly states (ability damage) or does the term also cover other similar systems which were not directly referenced. It is certainly a question worth asking.
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Alchemist liches are legit. The line of text in the lich template that says that a character must be able to "cast spells" was written before the alchemist existed, but the idea of the alchemist's elixirs is not to deny it access to spellcasting options like lich templates. After all, the alchemist's Alchemy ability does come right out and say that the alchemist "casts" his spells by drinking the extract.
Hmmm... could have sworn I saw somewhere that alchemists are not arcane casters per se, and can't scribe scrolls and make wondrous items, etc. Did I miss some FAQs or have I got this wrong from the get go?
Anyways, personally I think it's a slippery slope... liches are traditionally high level wizards or clerics; an alchemist or witch lich would be a bit of a laughing stock if you ask me, a silly thing like the Ice King from Adventure Times (yeah, it's immortal, but its schemes are akin to wandering aimlessly and serving as bait for eldritch guardians with big red swords and magic dog familiars...)
Pfft, complaining about alchemist liches, as mentioned prior page, BARDS can qualify for lichdom. Although I would assume the 11 refers to wizard equivalent, still a 16th level bard still has the know-how magically! And tends to be even BETTER at the knowledge/lore for research.
The 11 is for everyone, not just wizards. An 11th level bard qualifies to be a lich (if he also has Craft Wondrous Item).
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Here's a thought:
Why not create another path to immortality for alchemists instead of slapping a classic "vampire" or "lich" template on them?
Create a new high level alchemist based immortal monster for us to play with!
Magic users ended up with lichdom.
How about alchemists ending up in a select club of a handful of True Neutral immortals called "The Philosophers"?
The Philosophers have successfully harnessed the power of the philosopher stone - template and process to be devised by Paizo - and unlocked secrets of nature i.e. achieved the Magnum Opus... they draw their power directly from positive energy plane and are immune to aging and all negative energy effects. Druid circles are hunting them as they view them as abherrations of the natural order so they are elusive and have developped lairs and deadly traps of amazing complexity. They care not about the concerns of beings native to their world as they have now achieved perfect cosmic sustenance, and they view the environment as toolkits and stockpiles that will enable them to enable their next grand projects. However unlike liches they do not seek to corrupt what is or to destroy life, as life forms are a sustainable garden of ingredients they will eventually need, and their ever shifting populations can serve as test beds for experiments, be they biochemical or social in nature. The sheer draw they take from the positive energy can result in serious warping of the local ecosystems , mineral composition, weather, geothermic activity, radiation and/or air quality. While some Philosopher attempt to mitigate such effects, others merely encourage or document such events, as applicable to their designs and agendas. Regardless, They are impervious to these effects - stats and powers to be devised by Paizo!
:)
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Hmmm... could have sworn I saw somewhere that alchemists are not arcane casters per se, and can't scribe scrolls and make wondrous items, etc. Did I miss some FAQs or have I got this wrong from the get go?
Anyways, personally I think it's a slippery slope... liches are traditionally high level wizards or clerics; an alchemist or witch lich would be a bit of a laughing stock if you ask me, a silly thing like the Ice King from Adventure Times (yeah, it's immortal, but its schemes are akin to wandering aimlessly and serving as bait for eldritch guardians with big red swords and magic dog familiars...)
You're right, they don't count as spellcasters for pre-reqs, but the FAQ indicated that it wasn't entirely intentional to deny them access to certain things like crafting feats. Many groups house-rule alchemists to allow them to count as spellcasters for some purposes.
We've encountered an alchemist lich and he certainly wasn't funny. Really nasty former half-orc who knew how to hold a grudge and hit fast and hard when he saw the opportunity.
I like your Philosophers, though. And the concept is do-able with the 20th level immortality grand discovery - though a new template allowing them at a lower level would certainly be interesting!
Here's a thought:
Why not create another path to immortality for alchemists instead of slapping a classic "vampire" or "lich" template on them?
Create a new high level alchemist based immortal monster for us to play with!
Magic users ended up with lichdom.
Eh, I find that the current templates actually give a lot of differentiation and character in and of themselves. For this discussion, I will be talking about vampires, liches, Worms that Walk, and true immortality.
With vampires...in many ways, you could consider it a lesser cheat. Sure, they appear powerful... but they also have countless weaknesses and they are very dependant on prey. Also, vampires do no need very much actual talen (just 5 hd). They are the shallow pretty boys- they look nice, but they don't have too much going for them in the end.
In comparisons, with liches, they are individuals who both wish dearly for immortality... and have the self awareness to realize they could not gain it through the 20th levle wizard/alchemist options- they will never become masters before they die of old age. They instead make long back up plans to attain an easier to reach immortality. They choose to adopt a conservative nature- they become creatures that give up their good looks, and they develop a single large weakness... that they can ferret away from everyone. For a lich, the primary power they have is experience and time- they are more tha willing to wait in some cave for a century while the last pesky group of adventurers die of old age. They are more than willing to accept long solitude and an inhuman form as long as they are secure in their eternity.
Finally, the Worms that Walk provide the most intersting contrast. While liches are conservative... Worms that Walk are literally born from the kind of guy that gets shanked and left to rot and eaten by insects in a field... and then they tell death to ef off since they have better things to do. They are almost never born intentionally- they are accidents born from an evil spellcaster's sheer force of will. They died, but they cling to a wretched form of life that in fact makes them all the stronger by taking over the scavening insects that wished to feast on his corpse. And since they were the types to live fast and die young... beating death makes them all the more confident that they were right to do so. So while liches can be persuaded to help against some world ending force... Worms that Walk are more than willing to call out to that apocalyptic force so they can go out in a super nova.
All of these have appealing aspects taht can be VERY easily adapted for alchemists- an aging charmer that does not wish to lose his good looks (no matter the side effects), the old scientist that desperately searches for any way to escape his fate, or a madman that died in an experiment gone wrong, and he refused to allow himself to merely become food for his test subjects.
The thing you suggested... it just sounds like the proper research path for the level 20 alchemist looking for the immortality discovery (little different from the wizard version)... a man dedicated to his craft and on the straight and narrow is its own flavor... but lacks the distinct flaws taht drive a good villain. It is better as an NPC that acts as the old rival and contrast of someone that took the lesser path... the kind of guy...that you honestly expect to be murdered by the jealous undead rival. (but lets be honest- anyone with the nicer forms of immortality are just target for a large number of enemies. I can name three different outsiders, across several alignnment spectrums, that specialize purely in hunting immortals)
I was considering a battlehost lich who has his panoply bond with his phylactery blade as a major villain.
I was considering a battlehost lich who has his panoply bond with his phylactery blade as a major villain.
Oooooooooooooooooh... nice >:)
EDIT:
"The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.
Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items."
If you want your sword as your phylactery, does this mean you'll have to use the sword's original hardness and hit points?
I was considering a battlehost lich who has his panoply bond with his phylactery blade as a major villain.Oooooooooooooooooh... nice >:)
EDIT:
"The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.
Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items."
If you want your sword as your phylactery, does this mean you'll have to use the sword's original hardness and hit points?
Doesn't really matter what it's hardness and hp is, since panoply bond makes the phylactery indestructible.
I am noticing a pattern here. Why do all these immortal creatures have to be evil? I mean literally every immortal template says they have to be evil. Why is it evil to want to stay alive?
Monks, Wizards and Alchemists can become immortal without being evil.
Yes as Capstones at 20th level. Which is so unrealistic as not to matter. How many games have you played in or heard played go to level 20 or beyond?
Ok, reincarnated druids at level 5
Which is not immortality in the same way as a Lich or Vampire or other things.
That is literally just renewed life. Not the continuation of the same life.
Which is not immortality in the same way as a Lich or Vampire or other things.
That is literally just renewed life. Not the continuation of the same life.
You retain all your memories and abilities, does it matter?
A lich becomes a bunch of bones after all
Which is not immortality in the same way as a Lich or Vampire or other things.
That is literally just renewed life. Not the continuation of the same life.You retain all your memories and abilities, does it matter?
A lich becomes a bunch of bones after all
True enough, so why is it evil? Take five levels of Druid and you get the best part of being a lich. Just get some permanent item of Death Ward, since you can continue to track your items for 7 days after you revive just go and get the Death Ward item and you are good.
So why is that fine but all other forms of immortality considered evil?
Usually becoming a Lich implies becoming a necromancer, but above it all it's about "cheating" the natural order by using undeath, that is an aberration to the cycle of life and death. Reincarnated druids achieve it by embracing the flow instead.
On a side note, vampires can be not evil if they feed on animals or use the Transmute Wine to Blood spell ore use willing subject without circumvention. The problem is that they usually snap when adventurers go after them for being vampires all the time.
Indeed but they are deemed evil because they have 'cheated' death. Most living things want to cheat death.
It's rather narcissistic to want to cheat death in a setting in which someone that gets the means to achieve lichdom or another form of immortality should also know that the afterlife is a thing.
But also depends on what you do and why. An alchemist that creates the sun orchid elixir (and now I notice that a Thuvian alchemist can become immortal by level 15) by personal research is ok, Razmir that runs an entire phony religion is not.
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I am noticing a pattern here. Why do all these immortal creatures have to be evil? I mean literally every immortal template says they have to be evil. Why is it evil to want to stay alive?
My suggestion for the alchemists turned "Philosophers" by drawing from the Positive Energy Plane was that they turn True Neutral as they become sustained by cosmic forces. All questions of morality fall apart when you are connected to the source that powers the universe where souls and stars alike are born... I have several ideas on how to tie these guys to Golarion canon (author of the Great Beyond would be proud of me! ;) )
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I like your Philosophers, though. And the concept is do-able with the 20th level immortality grand discovery - though a new template allowing them at a lower level would certainly be interesting!
That's the idea. Those who achieve the Magnum Opus are accepted gingerly into the ranks of the Philosophers, while other alchemists may struggle their whole life just to attain the level 20 Grand Discovery, which pales in comparison to the benefits of the Magnum Opus. The Philosophers recognize intellect and mind power over experience, and their ranks is as likely to include upstarts as it is to include grand masters of alchemy (i.e. Paizo could certainly require a minimum alchemist level for the template, akin to how lich works, but fluff wise the Philosophers are not 'mad' or 'angry' when a young low level alchemist achieves the Magnum Opus and registers on their global positive energy awareness radar! ;) )
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I am noticing a pattern here. Why do all these immortal creatures have to be evil? I mean literally every immortal template says they have to be evil. Why is it evil to want to stay alive?
Sorry for quoting you twice but I felt my first reply didn't really address the question...
To directly answer your question: I don't think it's necessarily evil to 'want to stay alive' but with age and maturity you come to recognize that death is inevitable for everyone, that life is short, and that you should make the most of it. One doesn't bring material possessions to the afterlife, so what truly matters in life is what you leave behind for others to enjoy (i.e. a legacy), be it a Grand Library in Absalom or a life of love and happiness for your kids and loved ones.
To be alone, not care about anyone, be it to accumulate wealth, power or slave away in a lab to attain lichdom, is missing the point of life. Those who are alone but good aligned hermits are usually either alone against their desire (i.e. were forced to leave loved ones or they all died or did so to protect them) or alone trying to discover something for the greater good (i.e. not trying to live forever or accumulate power/gold/magic for themselves)
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Summoner lich with an unfettered eidolon enemy/would be redeemer. Cooler if eidolon was preventing lich from doing something the living sommoner would not do until pulled on the path to undeath.
Child lich, perhaps lichdom was set up by a parent who was the all powerful wizard or a wizard who de aged themselves as part of the lichdom formula.
Lich who is revered as divine ancestor, rather like the Inca mummies were. They usually do not move or react but are "consulted" on important family matters. Of course the lich may or may not be using their living family for their own agenda.
I like the hypocrisy of druidic liches. Ones who have become so "attuned" to or protective of the natural world that they feel the need to transcend it.
How about a Psychic Theuge lich. A mystic theurge except a combination of divine and psychic magic lich.
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If you want a really unusual lich I am working on a lich who is a blight druid with the VMC cleric to get turn undead. It is the high priest of Xhamen-Dor. While it may not be strictly legal I also gave it the undead domain to give it the ability to create undead. This is one of the major villains for a campaign I am running.
Technically he is not a lich. He is infected with the alien necromantic fungal matter of Xhamen-Dor. The lich template is the closest I could come to what I needed. He actually turned out pretty well. He is able to throw an insane amount and variety of minions at the party. In addition to undead he has the full summoning of a high level druid. He also wears dragonhide armor while casting spells. Druids actually make semi decent blasters so he is going to have the party wondering what they hell they are fighting.
I like the hypocrisy of druidic liches. Ones who have become so "attuned" to or protective of the natural world that they feel the need to transcend it.
They even have a specific undead template
I think the only lich I ever included in a campaign was a former king who faked his death and became a lich so he could hide away in his burial chamber writing the longest and most epic poem ever. The poem was so epic and mind-blowing that anybody who read it would take intelligence drain as their mind tried to collate the fabulousness therein.
He also had a bunch of marut heads mounted on the wall of his room.
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Weakest Lich Ever: Commoner with Master Craftsman and Create Wondrous Item.
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Is there any way to flurry or at least attack more then once with the lich's paralytic touch? If so the warpriest lich is scary.
The lich template specifically calls out "once per round", so no.
That said, a grippli lich would be kind of scary. Paralyzing touch delivered at a 15' range, bonuses to stealth from being Small, and being able to climb onto walls and ceilings to hide? Brrr...
Is there any way to flurry or at least attack more then once with the lich's paralytic touch? If so the warpriest lich is scary.The lich template specifically calls out "once per round", so no.
That said, a grippli lich would be kind of scary. Paralyzing touch delivered at a 15' range, bonuses to stealth from being Small, and being able to climb onto walls and ceilings to hide? Brrr...
you just gave me an idea for a bbeg, thank you
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Personally, I also like the idea of an oracle lich. Oracles get their power straight from the gods without necessarily understanding their plan, so an oracle might not choose to pursue lichdom, but have it thrusted upon him for reasons he doesn't understand. Such a lich might not even know what his phylactery is! Perhaps he sees it in his visions, and has been questing for it without precisely knowing why or how to find it.
11th level adept lich.
Or my personal favorite - Bard lich with a phylactery built in to their instrument of choice: an adamantine vuvuzela.