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This is me making a reservation for posting later as to what my idea is. The great irony as that I'm about to go to bed! Lol!

Anyway, I'll come back tomorrow and definitely add in my idea that I've been working on. Ciao for now!

I've been working on two magic systems lately and the one is fully fleshed out and working, however the second one is kind of kicking my beard...

The first one is a chromatic-metallic system where each style of magic is based on a color/metal. The kinds of magic are (starting with the chromatic):

red - magic that weakens and damages targets
blue - magic that bolsters and heals targets
yellow - magic that wards target
green - magic that influences plants and animals
orange - magic that influences spirits
purple - magic of divination and gathering of information
black - magic of power of death, chaos, evil and darkness
white - magic of power of life, law, good and light
gray - magic of influence of the mind and illusions
brown - magic of altering of the physical world
copper - gift of nimbleness, accuracy and luck
brass - gift of force, strength and ferocity
bronze - gift of knowledge and understanding
iron - gift of courage, invulnerability and tenacity
silver - gift of guile, charm and wit
gold - gift of wisdom, foresight and harmony

This system was nicknamed Soul Magic by my old game group and it required that the caster either a)form a contract with a magical being through diplomacy or force to use/improve one of the magical realms, or b)consume the soul of a fallen enemy (hence the popular nickname Soul Magic) to power the magic realms they wished to use.

This made a lot of sense because we played in a world where magic was acquired through the forming of contracts with magical beings and the consumption of souls. Due to the fact that magical beings were hunted and killed however, and the fact that the consumption of souls was heavily frowned upon (and punishable by death), magic users were shunned and often hunted down and killed. Clerics, Inquisitors and Paladins were exceptions because they gained their magic through extensive rituals, ceremonies and prayers to deities.

Magical beings gained magic through feeding off of the life-force of the cosmos. Example: a unicorn would typically live near a pool of water with reeds surrounding it. By drinking from the water at night (the water being fully exposed to the moon) the unicorn absorbed the power of the moon. The reeds that fed on the water would be eaten by the unicorn during the day to maintain its magical stores, because the moon's power would be stored in the reeds. A unicorn's power would also wax and wane according to the phase of the moon.

Magic in this world was very much centered around the interaction of the cosmos and the planes of existence. Spell casters that weren't part of the church were either loners that lived far away from civilization or kept their powers secret within their own homes.

Also, the power of a spell caster usually fluctuated depending on two factors: how many contracts they had with magical beings (the strength of the magical being, thus the strength of the contract, factored in as well in this part of the equation) and how many souls they currently had stored within themselves. At any one moment, a spell caster's power may increase or decrease depending on how much power they expend or absorb through their daily lives. Higher powered spells required more contracts and more souls, while lower powered spells required fewer contracts and fewer souls. The number of spells you could cast per day was based on how many each contract gave you and how many souls were expended with each spell. I.e. a spell that damaged a target for d6 damage may cost one soul or one level 1 slot from a contract, whereas a spell that could level a castle may cost upwards of 20 souls or possibly two level-9 slots from your contract(s).

Souls were like short-term investments and contracts were long-term. Souls lasted until you used the magical points you gained from them and could be gained rather quickly (short on souls to use, kill a few people and consume the ectoplasm). Each soul you consumed gave you a number of soul points to spend on spells. The number of soul points each soul gave you was equal to the CR of the creature the soul came from. If you absorbed the soul of a CR 5 monster, you gained 5 soul points to spend. If you absorbed 8 souls from CR 1/8 monsters, you gained 1 soul point to spend. The number of soul points spent to cast a spell were equal to the level of the spell. A level 5 spell would require 5 soul points to cast. You may think that this is ridiculously overpowered because after a few battles you'd be set on souls, right? Wrong. Each soul got a will save equal to 10 + it's CR + it's charisma modifier - the charisma modifier of the caster. If it failed, it was absorbed. If it succeeded, no soul for the caster!

Contracts on the other hand lasted for a long time and were made with three components. 1)Power level of the contract (this included the number of slots the contract contained and at what level those slots were), 2)conditions (what was required from both parties to maintain the contract and for how long it would last before needing to be renewed or simply becoming void), and 3)cost of the contract in order for it to be maintained and the cost of what would be lost should one of the parties break the contract before it reached the end of its term (i.e. a person may have to let a demon live in their left eye and if either were to break the contract they would become blind permanently with no way of regaining their lost vision.)

The level of a contract was equal to the CR of the magical being and the number of slots/power level increased at a steady rate according to a simple formula. Spell/day of given level = CR of monster - spell level + 2. According to this formula, a CR 5 monster gave you:

2 level-5 slots, 3 level-4 slots, 4 level-3 slots, 5 level-2 slots and 6 level-1 slots.

However, if you made a contract with another CR 5 monster you didn't get to double your available spell slots. Every consecutive contract at level 5 or lower only gave you a +1 to spells/day at the spell levels available according the CR of the monster. I.e. a contract with a CR 4 monster only yields a +1 level-4 slot, +1 level-3 slot, +1 level-2 slot and +1 level-1 slot.

Also, forming a contract with a stronger being reduces the previous contract to the simple +1 bonus. If I formed a contract with a CR 6 monster, I'd have:

2 level-6 slots, 3 level-5 slots, 4 level-4 slots, 5 level-3 slots, 6 level-2 slots and 7 level-1 slots.

The CR 5 contract from earlier now only gives me a +1 level-5 slot, +1 level-4 slot, +1 level-3 slot, +1 level-2 slot and +1 level-1 slot.

The number of spells known were also unlimited, so long as you had enough room in your tome, or enough tomes, to carry all the spells. Also, preparing a spell ahead of time allowed you to cast the spell as a standard action. However, you were also capable of looking up the desired spell, preparing it and casting it in a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell. After it was prepared, it could be cast immediately the next turn as a standard action or stored away for later use using another full round action. Although preparing spells in combat was possible, it wasn't advised or practical (until we entered into some longer, drawn out and epic-sized battles that required such actions just to survive).

So, that's the first system of magic. It's my personal favorite when it comes to magic and if I could use it every time I played pathfinder I totally would! Unfortunately, it really hasn't caught on yet with other players, and I fear it never will. Le sigh. :/

I guess that's the end of my first (official) post in the insomnia thread! :D

Similar to what happened to me in one campaign.

One of the players basically got shot in the heart and died instantly. No one tried to save them with healing and no one had the ability, or funds, to cast a resurrection on the player to bring them back. This was at a time however BEFORE I knew about hero points, so I used a technique my group calls "purple smoke" to keep the player alive.

After the combat was finished the other players found the dead player's body inexplicably missing. After three in-game days, this is what happened according to what our scribe recorded:

GM: You suddenly awaken in a small, round room that is dim, lit only by a fire in the very center of the room. Although the walls are made of a black mud, everything is very neat and orderly. The fire is built up with perfectly placed pieces of fire wood, the bed you are lying in is made from fresh furs that are layered over you very neatly and hanging above your head is a nearly perfectly symmetrical collection of bones hanging on a string.
Player: I sit up.
GM: You sit up with some effort and pain, noticing that it causes you to begin breathing hard just by doing this action. You also notice that you are entirely naked with the exception of bandages over your chest.

From there the player found that a small humanoid saved them from death, but the player had a -4 to con for quite some time until they were able to have the wound fully healed. They also had trouble sleeping due to nightmares of the arrow hitting them and they couldn't go near bows/crossbows without having to roll willpower to resist feeling fear, and they had a -2. This persisted until they got some mental help. It also took them a game week to locate their party and a game month to join back up with them.

With the hero point system I would have said that their spirit somehow tenaciously held onto their body and allowed them to live at a two point cost, but at the penalties of a -4 to con and -2 when around bows/crossbows as well as having nightmares (which ultimately leads to lack of sleep, which means more penalties could stack up without proper rest).

Then again my pathfinder games do find a lot of inspiration in the GURPS advantages/disadvantages system as well as having a heavy psychological thriller element to it.

Ultimately it depends on the setting as to the details, but the basic gist is that unless the player deserves the death (charging into hand-to-hand combat with a CR 40), the death is epic (they take an arrow to the hearth while defending their entire party from certain doom), or the death is completely unavoidable (falling 1000 ft without any way of slowing down or cushioning the fall to survivable levels), then the player should be given some sort of chance to keep going. That's my rule at least. Unfortunately the players usually only get one "purple smoke" per campaign and the rest of the deaths must be avoided in some way by the players or the player has to be brought back to life.

Ultimately though, yes, you made the correct choice. However, you should warn the player that next time such an action is taken, they may not come back at all. If they do, it'll be at a 2 hero point cost to them AND a 2 point hero cost from another party member to attempt reviving them, and that the player will incur penalties such as con damage or negative levels. If they're going to rely on cheating death with hero points and the such, make them pay for it MORE each time that player dies under circumstances that allows them to live.

Just my two cents though. It's up to you in the end. :)

Yes, at higher levels you would be able to cast a lot of 9th level spells, but there are two factors to take into account.

1. Spell components. They get costly at higher levels and rightly so. In my campaigns I don't normally concern myself with components or my players. We use component boxes, but they are only good for items of less than 1 gp in value.
2. Who would use 40 plus 9th level spells in a day? Seriously. With the components cost it is more 'economical' to cast the lower level spells.

Overpowering lower level spells.
pour more points into it and cast it as a higher level spell and double the effects. I believe there are meta magic feats to cover similar uses of spells. This method costs more points and if you are using the feat to do the same I would rule that it reduces the cost to normal. This way it still fits within the existing system, but gives you flexibility without the feat.

This is still a work in progress, but I think it has potential.

This is true. 9th level spells do cost a lot of money due to its requirements, but if you just slay a dragon or two you're set for quite some time with the hoards they have. The chances of this happening, luckily, are quite slim. So, to get around this, I could use let's say the level 2 spell fire breath. I say a few words, perform the hand gestures, eat a chili pepper and charge it with ooooh....let's say....70 extra points of magic along with the original 20 required to make it equal to a level 9.

Suddenly my first shot goes from 4d6 to about...let's say the attack die increase by this:

1/2[new spell level-original spell level]

So, I would add 1/2[9-2] die, because the new spell level is 9, the original is 2. Rounding down like a good little boy, I get a total of 3. So, let's save a couple magic points and just make it a level 8, because the extra 10 to make it a level 9 is just wasted anyway.

Now, I have a level 2 spell in my arsenal, I have the words and actions memorized, I have a chili pepper ready to be eaten (which is in my material box yes), and I've charged it up. Let the death begin, because I'm now dealing a whopping 7d6, 3d6 and 1d6 with each blast compared to the original 4d6, 2d6 and 1d6.

Now, I like math, so let's do a little analysis.

shot original dmg range new dmg range
1 4 - 24 7 - 42
2 2 - 12 3 - 18
3 1 - 6 1 - 6

Let's assume everything averages out yes?

shot original dmg avg new dmg avg
1 14 25
2 7 11
3 4 4

So on average, if I were to just level up my spell, I'd be dealing a whopping 13 extra points of fire damage each turn, and that's without factoring the chances of criticals. My max damage goes from 42 in the original (which is the same as the max damage on the first roll of the new damage level) to 66 in the new spell level. That's a difference of 24!

And when you charge a spell, it doesn't just have to be the damage that goes up, right? You could essentially charge anything such as its duration or how many shots you get, right?

This system right here has literally just put a level 5 on par with a level 15. The 15 might be able to last longer due to their magic pool, but at least the 5 can hit just as hard and if the 5 goes in prepared, i.e. plenty of magic pots, said 5 might be able to hold off the baddy long enough to let the barbarian swoop in and place a lance right between the eyes!

Dude, seriously, I'm going to start play testing this in one of my campaigns if you're cool with it. This system you came up with, is freaking awesome! :D

p.s. my table didn't turn out very good. If you manage to understand it, kudos! If not, I'll post a revised one here in a day or two. I spent what little spare time I had today making this post!

Okay, I know the Matrix is an awful movie, but...

You know how it must feel to walk around with a long coat concealing all the many instruments of death that you have strapped to your person?

Consider that a "spell" in Pathfinder is not a skill. It's not like Harry Potter where you learn the words and motions and if you have the mental discipline *bam* you've got a spell. No.

In Pathfinder, the skill is developing the personal power to hold spells, which are distinct intangible objects that you carry around on your person like loaded weapons. The normals around you just see a guy in a robe, but you know that at any moment you could separate the very bonds that hold the atoms of their flesh together. Before doing that, you make a mental check. Hanging there, on your aura, are three such spells. You can disintegrate exactly three human beings (or monsters...). You don't need to pretend that these spells are a skill, or come up with any rationale as to why your disintegrates are all gone but you can still cast more powerful spells... it doesn't matter. That's not what spells are. No need to roleplay that.

It isn't a system that models a real world concept, so it isn't really possible to model that concept badly. Just differently. Let go of the idea that spells should work like knowledge, and start imagining the metaphysics of a world where spells work like ammunition.

Now, upthread you described lower level martial characters owning full casters. This flies in the face of the conventional wisdom about full casters. You have a choice: you can deny the conventional wisdom, and keep playing with an intense skepticism about full casters OR you can play a caster intelligently and be the first in your gaming group to utterly rock.

I hated "Vancian" magic for decades, but I have learned to love it. You just need to accept it on its own terms, and you'll find that it is actually a consistent, flavorful alternative to skill-based magic systems (which I...

Okay, first of all, the Matrix was at least decent. It had potential until someone killed it.

Secondly.....OH MY GOD THAT MAKES EVERYTHING TOTALLY MAKE SENSE NOW!!!! I'd almost compare it to mathematical formulas. I have within my math binder every mathematical formula known to man, but I only take the time to memorize a couple of them because they're the ones I'll expect to need that day. Each day, I memorize the formulas I need and forget the ones I don't. When I need one I haven't memorized, I can check my binder. MAGIC IS JUST LIKE MATH!!!! The skill isn't the spell/formula, it's the ability to use it and understand it! Example: a level-1 Wizard is like a student that's learning basic math, while a level-20 has a master's degree in mathematics and does calculus in base-8 for fun! :D Also, to explain why you lose the ability to use certain levels of spells after utilizing them is like this: after doing a certain amount of math you begin to feel mental fatigue. Even if you love it you can only handle so much computing at any one time.

You seriously just made my day dude!

I think I have a working formula for magic points now, if you wish to give it a try and let me know how it goes.

Mp (Magic points)= [Ability Score (Intelligence for Wizard) x Con (Constitution score)]1/2 level + Hit points

So, Int 20 x Con 18 = 360
360 x 1/2 level (say 20th)= 360 x 10 = 3600
3600 + hit points (80 from Con bonus + 160 max from dice) 240= 3840
The cost of using all the spells (not including bonus spells) is 3600, if each level of spell costs 10 points (so a 9th level spell is 90 points)
The points for the bonus spells should take care of themselves due to them both depending on your stats.

This works well at with high attributes, like anything else. With this in mind, you may not be able to make full use of the normal number of spells per level if your stats are not high enough, but that would reflect how capable one is with magic. The lame explanation that it is...for now.

I like where you're going with this. However, my concern is how many magic points you're dealing out to people. With the maximum you just gave me, I could easily cast up to 42 level-9 spells. That seems a tad bit overpowered. How could you either a)tone it down or b)put in a limitation of some sort?

Also, you mentioned over-powering lower level spells. Mind giving me a few extra details on what you mean?