I don't know if this has already been addressed in a thread here but perhaps it would be a good change to have the Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization feats apply to weapon groups (the fighter class in current Alpha already groups them) rather than to single weapons.
This would put less pressure on the DM to strain credibility by placing different versions of the exact same weapon that the warrior in the party specializes in when there is treasure. Or if the DM randomizes it anyway, a better chance that the feats don't go wasted until the warrior gets back to town and sells off unwanted, unspecialized weapons to buy those that can be used with the feats.
4e only half fixed it by having Weapon Focus apply to a group while Weapon Proficiency applies to a single weapon.
AND perhaps remove the fighter class requirement from the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats.
I don't think that this would be terribly broken, do you?
I think it's a good idea, and also weapon spec and focus weren't taken that often in favor of combat maneuver type feats in 3e anyway. Increasing their utility by making them group feats, and making the prereq a "base attack bonus" instead of "fighter only" would make them more attractive to characters who can actually use them, like monks and rogues. Fighters can still take them, and fighters get class-specific scaling bonuses as well.
Only The Greater Weapons Focus and Specialization feats are fighter only. Specialization used to be +1 to hit, +2 to damage and has always been a "fighter only," since 2e. They changed specialization as to allow monks and rouges to at least gain a +1 to hit.
Though these feats are listed as feats, they are also extentions of the fighter class. The fighter's primary ability is to get feats, even with Pathfinder.
There is also a balance issue. If the barbarain can rage with specialization, as well as the paladin with smite, it allows these classes to over-welm the fighter class.
There is also the matter of the fighter being a trained warrior. It's only through this training (fighter of 4th level to gain specialization) that a fighter gets these feats. Thats why a fighter cant cast spells as a feat, or get uncanny dodge, or shape shift, est.
Thats why there is mutli-classing. If somethings such as specialization wasnt a class only ability, then there would be no need to have the class at all.
I agree that weapon focus should be allowed for a weapon group but only as a fighter class only privlage.
Fighter class privilages need to be far more powerful than the spec/greater spec and greater focus feats.
I posted a list of "fighter paths" that borrows from 2e material and the concept of becoming more of a particular "weapon based martial artist" like a dual wielding specialist, a 2 handed weapon specialist, a weapon and shield specialist, or a combat maneuver specialist.
This would change what class based powers you get at level up.
A flat rate of +2 to hit and + 4 to damage is not class-defining and ALL other warrior classes get better abilities as they level up. Smite can do hundreds of damage, divine might will give you more than +4 to hit and damage, assuming you have at least 18 cha (which pallys and clerics should have at a reasonable level), barbarians get greater and mighty rages, the strength bonus alone gives the equivalent of having ALL those fighter feats with an additional +2 to hit.
The spec feats and focus feats should be available to anyone with enough base attack bonus.
Fighters themselves should get impressive abilities based on what fighting style path they choose, and weapon mastery should give a damage dice increase for the weapon chosen. I also think that the "weapon master" prestige class has some powers that belong to disciplined, single class fighters who stick it out and go 18 or 20 levels in fighter.
At level 12, is +2 to damage really class-defining? A lot of people argue whether it's worth a feat! Fighters need a lot more to set them apart.
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Against it, certain classes then gain proficiency in weapons they've never been proficient with.. not to mention the list of what you're proficient with just gets longer since you're now listing groups, not three large categories.
It's a poor change and doesn't help the fighter, it alters a system that doesn't need fixing. So the fighter can use any bladed weapon and his feats stack with any bladed weapon.. great.. how is that make him different or better from a rogue with the same feats? It doesn't, the rogue gains a lot more from the deal.. heck so does a wizard or sorcerer.
If you want to help the fighter, get rid of weapon groups and give him some special attacks. Overhand Chop and the other new combat feats were great ideas, why not make attacks like them as class abilities for the fighter? Let the fighter do more damage in fewer attacks seems to be more beneficial then changing the entire proficiency system for every class.
100% in agreement for grouping weapons for the purpose of getting the weapon proficiency, weapon focus and weapons specialization feats (including their improved and greater versions).
However, weapon focus (basic )should still be the only feat available to non-fighters.
100% in agreement for grouping weapons for the purpose of getting the weapon proficiency, weapon focus and weapons specialization feats (including their improved and greater versions).
However, weapon focus (basic )should still be the only feat available to non-fighters.
JohnnyKage, can you give me a write up of how you implemented those feats into your campaign? Like prereqs, stats etc? Thanks.
...perhaps it would be a good change to have the Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization feats apply to weapon groups (the fighter class in current Alpha already groups them) rather than to single weapons.
Yes, this would be a great improvement!
I like the idea, of weapon groupings. I also think that weapon spec, greater weapon focus and greater weapon spec should stay as fighter feats.
As an alternative idea, what about giving the fighter a retrianing ability, like the warblades, where the fighter can practice with a weapon for an hour or so, and switch his weapon specific feats to that weapon?
This is the list the PFRPG Fighter uses for their Weapon Mastery as well (or almost exactly the same). I am using this in my PFRPG game as well and have used it for a long time. Works great for me.
Weapon Focus and Specialization work for a group now, not a single weapon. I still require all and any other requirements for those feats be met though. Specialization is still Fighter Only. At least for me.
As to fighters needing special abilities at high levels, I fully agree.
In my game, I've added some fighter only feats that helped balance Fighters with casters - I'll be happy to post them if and the details if anyone would like.
Point Blank Shot
- Precise Shot
- Impaling Shot*
Power Attack
- Improved Sunder
- Crush*
- Sever*
- Impale*
I'm sure you can infer some of the effects from the names, but I also found these feats useful because it gave fighters and fights in general some serious coolness factor... You step up and Crush the giants skull or snap his arm. Your fighter hews off the head of a foe with Sever...
There are limits on use, and saves to reduce deadly effects - but like I said, I'd be happy to post full stats if anyone wants.
Right now fighters are too bland. I LOVED the Book of 9 Swords - but it was almost too good... I think advanced feats that only fighters can get is the right way to go - and gives incentives to play solo fighters.
Yes please post them!!!
Hi JohnnyKage
I'll post them Thursday after I get back from work - they should be up by thursday evening...
Kathryn
Hi again - Here are those Fighter only combat feats. They kind of go hand in hand with a called shot system I use, but it is easy to port them out of it if needed. I'll post both.
Here is the called shot system...
A Called Shot is an aimed attack at a specified location on your foe in combat (either ranged or melee). There are many reasons to make called shots in a D&D game... Perhaps your PC has to smash a vial in a villains hand, or you need to slow someone down, so your PC tries to entangle their legs with a whip. The list of possibilities is endless, but the method of making a called shot is very simple. To make a called shot, simply tell the DM you are making a called shot, and take a penalty on your roll to hit with your melee or ranged weapon. If you hit, you damage that area slightly, above and beyond the normal damage you do. If you are lucky, and score a critical hit, the effects are even more severe. (Descriptions of wound effects follow the chart below).
TYPICAL LOCATIONS Penalty
Head -8
Eyes -12
Arm (L/R) -4
Hand (L/R) -6
Torso -4
Vitals -8
Leg (L/R) -4
Foot (L/R) -6
OPTIONAL LOCATIONS Penalty
Rear Legs (on Quadruped) -6
Wings (L/R) -4
Tentacles Special
If Tentacles are on the head, use the “Head” location - if on the arms,
use the “Arms” location
HIT LOCATIONS EFFECTS
In general, any penalties imposed by a called shot lasts until the character heals, either magically, or by resting. For a minor wound (such as stepping on a caltrop), a Heal check (DC:15), 1 point of magical healing, or a day of rest removes these penalties. You can also allow the character to make a Fortitude save (DC:10 + half the damage dealt) to "tough it out" and ignore the penalty. Note that although normally the special effects of Called Shots do not stack, A person wounded twice, once on the leg, and also the foot of that same leg, suffer both penalties to their movement rate.
HEAD
Normal : -2 to all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks
Crit : As above, plus 1pt INT and 1pt WIS Damage
EYES
Normal : One eye is struck and blinded. -2 to Spot, Search, Appraise, Alchemy, Forgery, Decipher Script, Open Locks, Disable Device, Craft, Read Lips, Scry, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Wilderness Lore; -2 to Initiative checks, DEX Checks, REF saves.
Crit : Both eyes are struck and blinded. The character must make a FORT save (DC:10 + damage taken) or be permanently blinded.
ARM
Normal : -2 to Climb and Swim checks, -2 to attack rolls with that arm, -2 to STR checks.
Crit : A deep wound. The target takes 1pt STR or 1pt DEX ability damage, in addition to the normal effects.
HAND
Normal : -2 to Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Forgery, Alchemy, Heal, Open Locks, Pick Pockets, Use Rope. -2 to attack rolls made with that hand.
Crit : A deep wound. The target takes 1pt DEX ability damage, in addition to the normal effects.
TORSO
Normal : The target is dazed for 1 round, and takes +2pts of damage.
Crit : As above, except the target is dazed for 1d4+1 rounds.
VITALS
Normal : The target is stunned for 1 round, and takes +3pts of damage.
Crit : As above, except the target is also dazed 1d4 rounds and takes 1pt of CON ability damage.
LEG
Normal : -2 to Climb, Swim, Jump, Ride, Tumble, Balance, Move Silently. -2 to REF saving throws, -2 to DEX checks. Move reduced by 5ft.*
Crit : A deep wound. The target takes 1pt DEX ability damage, in addition to the normal effects.
FOOT
Normal : -2 to Climb, Swim, Jump, Ride, Tumble, Balance, Move Silently. -2 to REF saving throws, -2 to DEX checks. Move reduced by 5ft.*
Crit : A deep wound. The target takes 1pt DEX ability damage, in addition to the normal effects.
WINGS
Normal : -10ft to movement rate, -2 to all DEX checks and REF saves while flying.. Note: If Movement rate or DEX ever drop to 0, the creature can no longer fly and immediately begins to plummet to the ground, taking falling damage as appropriate.
Crit : The wing is badly hurt and the target takes 1pt DEX ability damage in addition to the effects above.
Hi - now here are the new combat feats to go with the called shot system - or without if you prefer.
Hope you find them interesting. I made most of them "Fighter level X" rather than "BAB +X" because I wanted them to be special to fighters only.
Also - a House rule I use... If a Fighter voluntarily gives up one of his iterative attacks, his attack with the best bonus gets +2d6 damage. So if you had 4 attacks per round (at level 16+) and made only one attack roll, you would inflict +6d6 bonus damage on that one attack. Only fighters have access to this option, and the bonus damage is limited as follows... You must have twice the levels in fighter class per damage die, or the extra damage is lost. This means if you have 4 levels of fighter, you are limited to +2d6 damage dice. This (I hope) prevents cherry picking classes.
Here are the feats
Crippling Blow (Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Fighter level 8)
You are skilled at hitting a foe with well-aimed strikes to vulnerable joints, limbs, and body locations that can disable your foe for long periods of time. When you successfully hit with a called shot, or score a critical hit, you inflict (in addition to the normal effects of a called shot or critical hit) 1d3 STR damage or 1d3 DEX damage to your foe, which heals back normally.
Sever (Crippling Blow, Fighter Level 12)
You are skilled at permanently crippling and disabling a foes limbs with edged weapons, cutting hamstrings, tendons, and severing limbs. When you score a critical hit or successfully hit with a called shot, you may inflict 1d3 STR or 1d3 DEX ability drain, or attempt to sever a limb. If you try to sever a limb, it must be from a successful called shot (not a random critical hit). For either effect he target gets a FORT save (DC:10 + half the damage taken). If the save is successful, the target takes normal ability damage (not drain), and/or the target retains his limb. If the target fails its save, the limb in question is severed from its body.
Crush (Crippling Blow, Fighter level 12)
You are skilled at permanently crippling and disabling an opponents limbs with blunt weapons, breaking bones and crushing joints. When you score a critical hit, or successfully hit with a called shot, you inflict 1d3 STR damage or 1d3 DEX ability drain to your foe. The target gets a FORT save (DC:10 + half the damage taken). If the save is successful, the target takes normal ability damage (not drain) as if he
had been struck a crippling blow.
Impale (Crippling Blow, Fighter Level 12)
You are skilled at permanently crippling and disabling an opponents limbs and vital organs with piercing weapons, puncturing vitals and causing internal bleeding. When you score a critical hit, or successfully hit with a called shot, you inflict 1d3 CON ability drain to your foe. The target gets a FORT save (DC:10 + half the damage taken). If the save is successful, the target takes normal ability damage (not drain) as if he had been struck a crippling blow
Crippling Shot (Precise Shot, Fighter Level 6)
You are skilled in hitting a foe with well-aimed shots to vulnerable joints, limbs, and body locations that can disable your foe for long periods of time. When you successfully hit with a called shot, or score a critical hit, you inflict 1d3 STR damage or 1d3 DEX damage to your foe. This damage heals back normally.
Deadly Shot (Crippling Shot, Fighter Level 12)
You are skilled at targeting your foe with exceptionally deadly ranged attacks, and are sometimes able to kill or disable with a single attack. When you successfully hit with a called shot to a vital organ such as the Heart or Brain (through the eyes), you force your foe to make a Fortitude save (DC is 10 + half the damage taken) or die instantly. If the target saves, it still suffers the damage from the ranged attack. Note: that creatures such as undead, constructs, and oozes, which are immune to critical hits, are also immune to this Feat. Creatures which are NOT immune to critical hits, but are immune to death magic, are NOT immune to this Feat.
Swift Strike (Quickdraw, BAB +1)
You can make a greater number of melee attacks, at the expense of a little accuracy. You may make one extra melee attack per round (at your normal bonus) with any melee weapon, as long as all attacks made suffer a -2 penalty to hit. For large weapons (Such as a Greatsword or Staff), this "to hit" penalty rises to -4. This Feat cannot grant extra missile weapon attacks, even if the weapons are thrown hand-weapons such as daggers or axes - use Rapid Shot for that.
Fortune’s Favor
Your character is blessed with exceptional good luck. Each session of play, you may re-roll any one die roll (after seeing the results of the first roll) and choose from either of the two rolls (usually the better of the two rolls) You may also choose a special abilities below, instead of the free re-roll. This feat may be taken multiple times.
- Automatically confirm a critical hit
- Automatically stabilize yourself from bleeding to death, and
be raised to 0hp
- Instantly remove half your full hit point total in Subdual
damage (Sort of a “Second Wind”)
Hit Location (Weapon Focus, Fighter level 6)
You are exceptionally skilled at hitting a creature in its best-defended body locations, negating some of the "Called Shot" penalties to your roll to hit. Every time you take this feat, you can negate up to -2 of "To Hit" penalties related to called shots, when using a weapon for which you have the Weapon Focus Feat. This does not reduce to hit penalties related to anything OTHER than called shots, such as darkness, bad footing, weather, or whatever. To gain the benefit of this feat, you MUST be wielding a weapon for which you have the Weapon Focus feat.
Toughness (Con 13+)
You are tougher than you look - maybe a LOT tougher! When you take this feat, you gain +3 Hit points, as per the Players Handbook, as well as a new use to make the feat more attractive - a permanent +2 bonus to FORT saves versus the effects of Crippling Blows, Crippling or Deadly Shots, or Sever, Crush, and Impale attempts. This feat can be taken more than once, and each time the added hit points and the FORT save bonus stack.
Wow, this is all really good stuff. I think we should have a group Fighter-rewrite to see what we can come up with. You seem to have put a great deal of thought into it. I'm in the process of writing something up right now, too.