Cosian's page

alpha_storm wrote:

Even noncombatants have a major place in pvp lands, highly valued for production of war materials constantly expended.

In EVE? LOL, no.

Well today it is a lot different than it was in the begining. With jump gates, jump ships, frieghters that can fuel POS's, etc... you can get things in and out of null sec with little risk.

And that has become a problem because PvP is now easily avoided even null sec.

Prior to changes the last couple years, it required a significant amount of effort to keep defensive player owned stations and moon mining operations rolling as they required constant attention and fueling. We had 50 POS's in our chunk of space and it required a number of people to keep those rolling. But not so today.

It is a question of balance. You can ensure that the maintenance, gathering and transportation must be done by real people, but the danger is those tasks become just grinding and people do not like to do them. I think this was the main reason for many of the changes EvE put in over the past few years ... but as you mention, the changes perhaps had a negative effect since it resulted in less people required to stay in null sec and less PvP.

I have not played in quite sometime, but I heard rumors that they were going to restructure things in null sec to address the problem of people holding vast amounts of space just by controlling a couple choke points. Their goal is to get many more smaller groups out in 0.0 and holding space there. Again, I have not kept up on it of late but it sounds like they are trying to address some of the problems you have mentioned in your posts.

............

What people do in high security outside a war is to have the right number of character with the appropriate gear to be capable to attack a paying target and kill him before the law enforcement intervene.
The key is how much people you need against what kind of target and at what cost. That are the variable that determine how common ganking would be.

.........

Currently Goonswarm is "laying siege" to high sec ice production in the Galletne region of space. Ice gathering ships are relatively weak and only a few systems have ice belts, so they only need to have a relatively small number of characters ready to suicide gank the ice mining ships in each of the appropriate systems.
That way they have almost cornered the market of Gallente ice products (there are 4 kinds of ice in game and you need the right kind to fuel some ship and structure) as they have a few friendly ships mining that kind of ice.
While I can applaud the creativity and the drive in controlling the market, the problem is that the ice miners can do almost nothing against the gankers.
They can't fire first as the police will kill them (and their ships are weak combatants). Friend can't help them killing the ganekrs as they will either: a) get killed by the police if they fire first; b) be slower than the police is firing only after...

This is something that could have and should be dealt with game mechanics. As much as I love the EvE system, I never saw a purpose for allowing PvP in high sec space at all. Virtually all of that type of PvP occurred was people trying to figure out a way to 'game the game'.

The business of a group of pirates suiciding low cost high DPS ships while a non-combatant runs in to loot the 'body' was unrealistic and senseless. Simply do not allow that type of play to occur in PFO ... problem solved.

I also did not like the War Dec mechanics. Basically a corporation could purchase a sanction or 'casus belli' which allowed them to attack players of another corporation anywhere anytime without reprecussion. I personally did not think this resulted in very good game play.

Typically you would get larger corps or paid off mercenary corps attacking small and less capable corps. Essentially this was non-consensual PvP. A smaller defending corp would simply hole up in their home station or not play until the War Dec expired. It never made for very good game play in my mind and there was no purpose for it. People that did not want to get involved simply could leave their corp and join an NPC corp temporarily. Again ... no need for this type of mechanic that I can see.

Cosian wrote:

Anyway, I did 4 years in EvE. Ran a 1500 person alliance in Vale for a year, and recently died along with Morsus Mhi when the rest of the universe decided our run of 0.0 dominance was over :) So I do know how EvE works :).

First, I want to appologize for jumping down your throat at 2am this morning ;)

Secondly, I have a question for you.
A lot of people are concerned that what they build in PFO will come crashing down around them. From your experience in EvE, how did it feel lose that portion of null sec that you had dominated with your alliance?
How long had it taken to acquire the personnel and resources to be able to hold it?
I'm only asking so I can put a few things into perspective. I find the idea absolutely fascinating.

Sorry for the belated response ... been playing SWTOR ....

I started in a corp of 60 players where about 20 were active. The corp was housed in safe high sec space. Most of the players were PvE and stayed in high sec space with a few venturing into low sec. We would occasionally run corp mining ops in low sec but no one went into 0.0 space.

The corp leader wanted to get the corp doing more PvP and eventually moving into 0.0.

I won't write a wall of text with all the details. Suffice to say it was a long journey and took an incredible amount of work. After a year we were a large corp of 240 and made our home in low sec space. We had a strong cadre of PvP players and held our space. It took another 4 months to find the right political and game situation to get into 0.0 where we purchased our own outpost. It took another few months to build an alliance of corps interested in joining us there.

Anyway, we had a good 6 months out there. But the winds of war were coming and it turned out ... as usual .. most of the 1500 member alliance was more interested in taking advantage of the great space we held as opposed to actually fighting against a major alliance to keep it.

The handwriting was on the wall that we would be kicked out. We cut some deals, were able to sell our outpost and everyone pretty much got out with most of their stuff.

Here is thing .... virtually everyone that joined us on the journey was light years ahead, in terms of skill, ability, and money, of where they would have been if they had stayed in high sec space.

You have to look at things in EvE in terms of net gain as opposed to continual gain with never any losses. So yes, I personally suffered some some unplanned and significant losses .... but overall, I and my comrades were far ahead of where we would have been bopping around in high security space....and had a heck of a lot more fun.

To some extent, for me, it was a relief disbanding the alliance and heading back to high sec for a couple months. It was a very tough and very satisfying 18 month journey but I needed a break.

Again, the thing about EvE is you do have the ability to control risk versus reward. I like that model and clearly it works given the continued growth of EvE.

I put the game on the shelf for about 5 months and then went back. I joined a corp alinged with Morsus Mhi and the Northern Coalition and just played. It was interesting to note, that I always felt safer in 0.0 space than even low sec space. You were part of a large group of people with some awsome PvP players. You were seldom suprised or ganked unless it was your own fault. There was always plenty of warning if baddies were traveling in your space. It was all pretty cool to be sure.

I think some version of the EvE system does it best ...

A single server type with everyone on it ....

Zones with increasing levels of security. High security zones have substantial military patrol presence. In these zones, an attack on a player not flagged for PvP is met with instant and decisive response from patrols. Effectively, you cannot attack an unflagged player and survive.

Non Flagged players may venture into lower security zones. The lower the security, the less NPC support is recieved.

The 'frontier zones' are zones where players are auto flagged for PvP upon entrance. There is no NPC Support.

The lower the zone security, the greater the rewards or materials. However, it is important to note that players may choose to continue to advance in level and power in safe high security zones....albeit at a somewhat slower pace simply because the rewards and value of the materials they collect is less. However, they still have access to the very best equipment since they can either craft it, or buy it off the market.

It should be noted that in EvE, things you collect are not bound and can always be sold. However, since there is full loot in EvE, there is an ongoing demand for virtually every item in the game.

Where griefing comes into play in an MMO is when games create PvP zones that players MUST go into in order to advance. The player that wishes to move ahead has no choice. He must venture into the PvP to advance. IMO this is a game mechanic to be avoided at all costs.

I think the EvE system creates a couple very cool things ... First, there is a symbiotic relationship between PvP players and PvE players. PvE players do much of the gathering and crafting. If they choose to do this in low or no security zones, they develop relationships with PvP players that protect them and provide security.

The second thing the EvE system does is create a veritable crucible for PvP players by allowing PvE players to skill up and gear up in the relative saftey of high security zones. I believe there is a PvP player in everyone ... it is simply a matter of allowing the players to hit their personal comfort zone in terms of bankroll, gear, and skill before they choose to do it.

In EvE, I have seen the most diehard PvE players become rambo hardcore PvP players once they are ready. Might take a year .... but it does not matter ... most PvP eventually ... or at least start venturing into PvP zones.

Cosian wrote:

Elth wrote:

This thread should really be locked. It's not achieving anything.

I do not understand why people continue to hang around if they are not interested in the games direction.

What direction would that be? The only thing I have seen is the Goblinworks blog and that just says its going to be sandbox oriented as opposed to theme park oriented.

If there is a more definitive link to what this direction is, please post.

Are you kidding me? the non-consensual pvp direction. Ryan has made it quite clear in numerous posts. It's 2am here, I'm not going to do your research for you.

I should have been more clear and yes, get some sleep Elth! :) While it is quite clear that non-consenual PvP will be part of the game, there are potentially many different ways to implement. And my question was more on the specific direction for implementation.

Having now gone back and done more research as you suggested, on one hand it looks like an EvE model, but on the other hand Ryan suggests it will look a lot a less like the EvE model than it will look like it. So it is not clear how non-consenual PvP will be implemented ... only that it will be big part of the game.

Anyway, I did 4 years in EvE. Ran a 1500 person alliance in Vale for a year, and recently died along with Morsus Mhi when the rest of the universe decided our run of 0.0 dominance was over :) So I do know how EvE works :).

Coldman wrote:

What we should be aiming for is a universal server to which the law in enforced similar to that of a contemporary society. You can do wrong but you risk everything. You can join an army and goto war. Nobody is vindicating Open PvP everywhere. I am simply against a PvP switch or allowing open pvp in a minority of zones. Allow a minority of safe zones, but allow risk and reward to dictate the security of vast regions beyond these (think Eve Online).

Yes people get murdered here and there, yes we are subject to criminal activity, but the criminals and murderers are punished and life is that much more special because we are not invulnerable. I do not consider myself 'griefed' by serial killers or burglars.

putting so many pvpers into 1 spot with pvp zones ruins the fun, it takes away any chance of there being smaller scale pvp

also agree that there should be some kind of punishment, games like wow there is no risk when ganking someone who can't even fight back, would love to see some kind of bounty system that rewards people who stop his kind of ganking

if you want to see a living world in a sandbox mmo you need a lot of freedom and that means that people will get ganked and forced into pvp if they leave safe zones

If you are going for an EvE style sandbox note that both the safe zones and PvP zones are huge. Due to its size and scale, the vast majority of PvP is small scale with larger battles ocurring periodically as alliances try to take over space. PvE players should not get that impression that style model shoves them off in a little corner of the world. It is not like say a RIFT PvP server where you are only safe through a certain level and must enter PvP zones to continue to progress.

This thread should really be locked. It's not achieving anything.

I do not understand why people continue to hang around if they are not interested in the games direction.

What direction would that be? The only thing I have seen is the Goblinworks blog and that just says its going to be sandbox oriented as opposed to theme park oriented.

If there is a more definitive link to what this direction is, please post.

Zychon,

I could not agree more with your post. It has been a series of postage stamp printings of the EQ/WOW model now for too many years. Different skin ... same core systems. The list of games where server pops drop within 6 months is growing ever longer and SWTOR will be the next game on that list despite the fact it will be a financial success for its investors. It will be a failure for gamers and despite the fact that I will undoubtebly have a great time playing it with my friends for a couple months, I just want to stick a light sabre in my eye knowing what the end result will be.

That said, Guild Wars 2 truely does break down some of those grind for gear paradigms and is charting some new ground. It's systems promote great group play without having to worry about level and gear stat disparities. For me, though that game may not have all the answers, it is certainly proving its possible to break out the old mold so to speak.

I am not sure its systems are the answer for what is being talked about here, but there truely is some good stuff going on over there and I am looking forward to playing that.

Though Guild Wars 2 has an over reaching story line with some linear questing, the majority of the PvE content is made up of dynamic events. Rather than running to a quest giver, you encounter these events as you travel around ... which seems much more immersive that quest hubs and linear questing.

Here is the thing .. I recently read a dev blog that suggested they have some kind of template driven middleware that allows the whole process of creation, testing and implementation of a given event to be done in 2-6 hours.

By the way, Star Wars Online has or will be implementing player created missions. I do not know how it all works, but getting the community involved with your game, provided you have the infrastructure to ensure quality could really help. Games of the year like Fallout, Oblivion, and Skyrim, though great games in their own right are all about user content creation.

Specific to the systems in EvE that I think inhibited a still larger audience ...

I think the ability for one corporation to declare war on another corporation and then attack memebers of that corporation anywhere and anytime is probably the single biggest item non-PvP players do not like. Even though you can get around that easily enough by simply leaving your corporation and joining an NPC corporation, it disrupts the corporation/guild and is a hassle.

Though I personally liked it, I think the game could have grown even faster than it has and be more new player friendly if PvP was truely limited to low security space/zone.

Don't create a game with only one server. That was one of the major issues with EVE: only one type of gameplay. PFO needs multiple servers to satisfy people who want non-consensual PvP and people who want consensual PvP. That way, we can all get what we want and stop fighting over it before the community gets torn in half over the issue.

Despite the single server the best thing about EvE was the incredible scope of gameplay. I am very confused on how you felt there was only one type of gameplay. If you did not want to PvP you simply did not go into low security space. If you did not want the chance of being wardeced you joined an NPC corp. There was a huge amount of PvE content, an incredible economy for PvE crafters, mission running, fantastic exploration to discover hidden complexes and other goodies, etc.. etc..

I would not be opposed to removing the ability to PvP at all in certain zones. Problem solved!

I am not overly fond of losing things, but, if gear is not ever lost, you will have a difficult time constructing a viable in game economy. And I think that is a very very important part of a sandbox game.

In EvE you lose everything you are carrying when your ship is lost. Having lost a billion ISK ship more than once I can tell you it is not a great experience. However, you learn to manage that risk. You only fly what you can afford to lose. You only go into PvP areas if you can afford to lose. You learn how to gear and fly your ship in hostile territory and use stealth ships to scout the route. Remember when Mom told you that you should never going swimming without a buddy. If one is paying attention and playing correctly, it is very very difficult for someone to gank you even in the most hostile space.

With the zone concept you can also choose not to have a chance to lose anything.

That said, I do recognize this kind of play is not for everyone. But again, you do have to consider the information presented on MMO subscription base and clearly EvE is doing something right.

Lastly, I can't even get my brain wrapped around a sandbox style game without rich PvP content. Given that there will not be a lot of theme park style questing, what the heck would everyone be doing?

Cosian wrote:

I think with some thought put into it, one would find that indeed a virtually identical approach with hundreds of skills could be developed and fit the fantasy genre ....

The time to skill means players that wish to become very proficient at something cannot take a jack of all trades approach. Sure, as in EvE, after a long time playing I could develop specific melee skills along with casting skills or whatever. But I think that is a good thing where over time you build in flexibility to your character. The control of what I can do in any particular combat does not need to be controlled simply by the whole set of skills I know, but rather, can be controlled by other mechanics. For example, I cannot instantly change my role in combat no more than can I can instantly jump from my ranged DPS battleship to a logistics...

I can never agree that a veteran player should, on a single character, wield a smithy hammer and craft the best gear, wield a sword and slay the hardest dragon, wield a staff and cast the greatest spell, wield a saw and build a house, wield a pen and write Shakespeare - regardless of time played.

Do this across separate characters. You achieve the same goal and it rules out the possibility that the most established player can have an unfair advantage over a lesser established player. Veterans may have a crafter character, a warrior/mage character, a politician and roleplay character etc. It's logical and it allows people to develop different player characters than forever chasing the 'single god character'.

Games like Eve dissuade the casual gamer from playing more than one character as they cannot progress simultaneously in their race to god status. This is disastrous in my eyes to a roleplaying game in a fantasy setting. To successfully run 2 different playstyles in Eve (as far as I am aware), you must run and pay for 2 seperate accounts so that they can progress at the same time as only one character on an account may 'skill up' at a time. That, in my...

You are correct in the way EvE works. I guess I never thought of it that way because when I play EvE I usually have a few accounts going and to make the God character in EvE is pretty much impossible due to the time it takes to skill. The last time I did the calculation it was over 20 years to max all the skills and they have added skills since then.

That said, I think your approach is better .... not only for a fantasy setting, but maybe for EVE as well. Use the same system, but have seperate skill trees based on an initial role you select. And then allow perpetual skilling for all toons on the account. That said, given the time it would take to develop the God character.... if implemented similar to EvE .. I really do not see the problem going the single toon approach either. I can see advantages either way and could get behind either type of implementation.

Any direct mechanical advantage that a player gets simply for having had their account longer than another player is ridiculous, especially if the newer player will never have the chance to be on equal footing.

Combine this with a non-consensual PvP sandbox game and you will have a disaster.

You have to really understand the system to see that in fact it is one of the only systems that affords new players an opportunity to achieve a reasonable level of competetiveness quickly. The time versus skill benefit game is essentially logrithmic instead of linear. So you can get a lot of skill benefit quickly but that last 2%-3% advantage takes a big time investment.

The disaster is how current systems do it.

- Heavily Gear based where hardcore grinders gain a substantial gear and stat advantage over new players and players that have less time to devote to grinding.

Here in order to become competitive everyone is forced to go through the same hardcore grind. Worse yet we have a separate path to go through for PvP and PvE. This mechanism does nothing but ensure dropping population within 9 months and sometimes sooner.

We have had this discussion a great deal on these forums and although I do like Eve's system and feel it should be learned from, it is built to reflect a sci-fi setting than that of a fantasy setting.

The range of ones acquisition of skill in Eve is governed by nothing but time, yet it is plausible that a good commander of a ship may be skilled in a wide range of skills offered in Eve; flying different ships, using different weapon systems, repairing etc etc.

In a fantasy setting however, things become much simpler and thus far more difficult. It becomes less probably in a fantasy setting that a warrior skilled in the use of full plate armour, sword and shield, can throw down his armour and launch a fireball at it's unsuspecting prey before picking up a bow and shooting his enemny in the back with an expertly placed arrow and then whipping out a staff to heal himself with a spell. If you do not curb the depth of knowledge of any single player, or remove access to some skills should others be taken, player roles which are and always will be a staple of the setting will simply evaporate..

Pilots have a wealth of transferable skills. Warrior and mages? less so.

I think with some thought put into it, one would find that indeed a virtually identical approach with hundreds of skills could be developed and fit the fantasy genre ....

The time to skill means players that wish to become very proficient at something cannot take a jack of all trades approach. Sure, as in EvE, after a long time playing I could develop specific melee skills along with casting skills or whatever. But I think that is a good thing where over time you build in flexibility to your character. The control of what I can do in any particular combat does not need to be controlled simply by the whole set of skills I know, but rather, can be controlled by other mechanics. For example, I cannot instantly change my role in combat no more than can I can instantly jump from my ranged DPS battleship to a logistics ship.

This subject is near and dear to my heart as I feel the EQ/WOW model, repeated over and over in just about every new game that has come out in recent years is a recipe that virtually ensures server will be emptying within 9 months. AION, LOTR, RIFT, and soon to SWTOR, all have or will suffer the same fate due to having the same core game systems. But this thread is on PVP-PVE implementation so on to that ....

As I most time PvP player who also loves solid PvE content, I look for core systems that ensure there will be a steady flow of new PvP players coming into the game and systems which promote PvP and PvE players to play together while addressing the needs of both. These may be brand new players on the server, or, existing PvE players that have reached a point where they would like to get into some PvP. Or, PvE players that like to PvP sometime. This is a key concept because I believe there is a PvP'r in everyone. The point is that people want to choose when and how they go about it.

So we have to look at systems that make it easy for new PvP players to get involved without spending 5 months of PvP specific gearing while getting arse spanked just to be competitive.

The EvE model has many good systems which contribute to its continued growth and success.

1. There is only one server type and everyone plays on that server. It is for all practical purposes a single Open World PvP server. However, there are many mechanics that prevent or at least make it very very difficult for high skilled and geared players to run around griefing lowbies.

Essentially the game world is divided into zones (systems) with progressively lower and lower security levels. Without diving into all the details, the lower the security system, the less restrictions on PvP. Players do not flag and unflag. If they go into a PvP zone, PvP can occur. So I think having PvP and PvE on the same server and controlling when and how PvP can occur by zone is a viable method.

In EvE, the safe Empire regions in effect become a crucible for new PvP players. Players can spend as much time as they want here and there is plenty to do. Many players never leave and simply enjoy PvE content and interacting with other players.

A key point here is that staying in the safe Empire region does not limit your ability to advance, skill, and level whatsoever. The skills and gear you gain and use during your PvE career is the same gear and same skills that you will use for PvP should you decide to partake in this exciting aspect of the game.

2. EvE creates interdepdencies between PvE and PvP players. These interdependencies come in a number of formsbut I think the biggest interdepency is simply that PvP players like to PvP and generally do not like to farm and craft. While PvE players like to farm and craft but do not like to PvP.

This creates a symbiotic relationship between the two play styles. Higher level farmers and crafters take up residence in more dangerous zones and are protected by PvP players. In turn, the farmers make more money farming more lucrative zones while supplying the PvP players with resources and items. This relationship also provides Open World content for the PvP player as the strive to keep their zone secure.

Anyway, this is big core system discussion and there is a lot more to say. But for now I am simply advocating mechanics that keep everyone on the same server while meeting the requirements of the various playstyles.