Goblin Squad Member
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Although I'm not convinced it's impossible to create mechanics that effectively create the situation you are describing, it's much harder to actualy achieve then most realize. Almost every developer of a FFA PvP game states the exact same intentions in thier design goals that you desrcribe....and Almost every one of them fails to accomplish mechanisms that come close to meeting thier goals.Just a small example....it's not much of a deteriment to a PK'er that Guards will kill them quickly if they murder someone in a safe zone if they don't much care about the consequences of being killed.
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I think it is not as hard to achieve them as some realize either. It's pretty simple, the penelty for dying has to be something that makes them rapidly become worse at PKing, and to undo anything they may have gained from the process. Secondly getting to the point of being able to PK reasonably has to take time.
Yes if you make it so that a freshly created character has a high chance of killing someone out of the gate, he will. Now if you make it so that the HP to damage ratio, makes it take at least 30 seconds with a brand new character, make guards able to 1 shot a new character, then that method will be out the door instantly, griefing by low level throw away characters is completely out the window at this point.
Now what about high level characters. Easy, the penalty for death can be made as .25% of your total XP/skills out of war, (in the event of a declared war, it should either be drastically less, or non-existant)for someone your faction has declared war with, .25% may not sound like much until you start adding it up, for a lowbie character that's just a few minutes, for a character that has been accumulating skills for 1 year, that is just over 9 days work to recuperate, The more skills you have the less likely you are to want to use them on people weaker then you, unless you are far enough from civilization to get away with it.
Personally I think this is the most logical form of death penelty out there, it is cruelly harsh, when you are high enough to understand what risks you are taking, and ludicrously light when you are a newbie who's just at risk of making a few wrong steps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you look at Team based FPS games in contrast....they tend to avoid alot of that specificaly because players are pre-placed onto a built-in Team (i.e. support base) and generaly actions that are directly antagonistic toward other members of the Team are mechanicaly prevented.... along with the ability to "kick" those who find ways to circumvent such restrictions off of the server.
Sure, I agree. World of Warcraft is another example of how, through the random dungeon finder, I have worked with countless individuals and groups in accomplishing goals. I would call this a low quality of player interaction, primarily as it's easy to forget your playing with other people who are more unique and interesting than the platform would allow you to see. Players are very much just filling the functions of their classes than fulfilling any role of 'character' within the game. Back in Ultima Online I knew players on the server by their persona; reputation was an important aspect as friends become vastly more important in such an environment and this offers an aspect to the game which few games have achieved since, a genuine feeling of community and a truly organic society in a virtual space. Everything since has just been a massively multiplayer cooperative game, which is fine, but they're both vastly different in what they offer.
I disagree that open PvP environments hinder social interaction and have a negative effect on forming small to large groups or organizations; quite the opposite. I've never seen stronger groups in an MMORPG platform than I have in open PvP games as it requires more than peoples simple participation to make that relationship work. Members of a guild are trusted. Again we can't confused open pvp with bedlam. It will not be bedlam. Areas of war or zero security? Sure. Everywhere else? I highly doubt it.
In examples you mentioned such as player killers using alternate accounts to grief people, this is easily combated: safe zones for new players, disallowing a playerkiller from resurrecting easily or in a timely manner when in more secure locations etc. Player killers will only feed on easy prey and grief if you make it easy and thus enjoyable for them. Your right in saying that the majority of developers to date have struggled in accommodating open PvP in an intelligent way, but that is not to say that this is a given and cannot be implemented properly.
Again, Eve Online represents an Open PvP game where players can operate in 99% secure zones and access all the PvE and trade commodities they require. This is the more civilised implementation of open PvP than that of say Ultima Online or others which were the 'Wild West' by poor design.
♠ Join the Pathfinder Online community in IRC | Server: irc.stratics.com (6667) Channel: #pfo | We'll see you there! ♠
What we should be aiming for is a universal server to which the law in enforced similar to that of a contemporary society. You can do wrong but you risk everything. You can join an army and goto war. Nobody is vindicating Open PvP everywhere. I am simply against a PvP switch or allowing open pvp in a minority of zones. Allow a minority of safe zones, but allow risk and reward to dictate the security of vast regions beyond these (think Eve Online).
Yes people get murdered here and there, yes we are subject to criminal activity, but the criminals and murderers are punished and life is that much more special because we are not invulnerable. I do not consider myself 'griefed' by serial killers or burglars.
putting so many pvpers into 1 spot with pvp zones ruins the fun, it takes away any chance of there being smaller scale pvp
also agree that there should be some kind of punishment, games like wow there is no risk when ganking someone who can't even fight back, would love to see some kind of bounty system that rewards people who stop his kind of ganking
if you want to see a living world in a sandbox mmo you need a lot of freedom and that means that people will get ganked and forced into pvp if they leave safe zones
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am curious to hear the opinions of those who are extremely leery about non consensual PVP.
Thanks
first off ill admit wow was my first mmo, since then ive tried many but non that ive played hit the right note for me and now even wow is starting to suck with all their pandering to 12 yr olds. that having been said in its original launch wow managed to achieve a solution to this problem, they had pvp servers and normal servers. in a pvp server if you went into a "contested area" you could be attacked at any time, if you were in your own faction's area or a "friendly area" you could not be attacked unless you purposfully flagged yourself for pvp. the only real difference is that on a normal server you would never be attacked unless you purposly falgged yourself whereas on a pvp server if you were questing in a contested zone you could. personally i think if this mechanic is included in pfo it would make the world seem that much more real. for example if you are trying to join the assasins guild a quest could be to kill an unsuspecting pc. if you dont like random pvp then play on a pve server end of story
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I have described EVE as a cesspool of socioathic behavior. I have no direct experience with EVE, only the stories my friends who have palyed EVE have told me.
Am I being unfair and inaacurate with my colorful description of EVE?
I have played it from 2006 onward, so my reply is obviously "it is not a cesspool" and "you are unfair and inaccurate" ;-)
Maybe my parameters for the evaluation are unusual as I have played in a low number of other MMORPG and never in WOW.
The main problem in EVE is one of "critical mass", I think. It is a single, permanent, universe played on a single, massive server.
That mean that jerks endure and continue to be a pain and they have a tendency of finding each other, so the problem isn't player XX like to kill players characters (or their ships) for LULZ and maybe gain, but but XX, XY, YX, YY and ZZ like to do that and have banded together to be more efficient at that.
so unless you can gather enough people to defeat 5 of them at the same time you will be on the losing side, and as they specialize in killing people you need a large number of non specialized characters to efficiently fight back.At the same time this has killed the sportsmanship of the PvPers interested in good fights and not in pure gang killing.
They have learned that the guy that they want to fight one against one has always a gang that will support him, so they don't try to find balanced fights but go for the sure and fast kill.Market scamming has the same problem. The percentage of people trying it is low, but as they congregate in a few big trading hubs you always see a lot of them, so you get the perception of a large quantity of market scams. Add that people constantly create throw away alts to perpetrate those scams and you get the perception of a huge population of scammers when the number of players actively doing that is way lower.
All said I love the game, especially as it is internet spaceships. It is not so user friendly for people that...
Diego thank you for taking the time to tell me what the game is like form an insider’s perspective.
From what I understand from what you have said, the aggressive players who like to kill other players tend to clump together in gangs and they roam around looking for people they can essentially pick on and kill quickly and easily. They aren’t interested in a challenge, nor a fair fight, but one they can win quickly and decisively.
You mentioned you needed a sufficient group of players or people to fend these wandering “wolf Packs” off.
With the market scamming, I guess the old saying about a few bad apples and all that.
I’m glad you enjoy the game. And again thank you for telling me about it.
I got my information about EVE from two friends who played Eve online together. One I have known for six years, and the other friend I have known for 20 years. we have played D&D and Pathfinder together for a very long time. I think they both are reasonable observant and intelligent people, and well I trust their judgment. My longer-term friend the one I have known for 20 years was the one who described EVE as a sociopathic cesspool. I think they know me well enough to recognize a game I would not enjoy playing.
But I am willing to reassess my views in light of new information. Maybe the simplest way is to give the game a try. Again Diego thank you for telling me about your experience with the game.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I have described EVE as a cesspool of socioathic behavior. I have no direct experience with EVE, only the stories my friends who have palyed EVE have told me.
Am I being unfair and inaacurate with my colorful description of EVE?
Yes. It's like having an opinion about a movie you've never seen based on what your friends heard about it while waiting in line to buy a ticket.
You COULD try it yourself, as trial accounts are free. Then you'd at least have an opinion like someone who sat through the first 5 minutes of the film.
Mr Dancy,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. Actually I was expecting Diego Rossi to respond, so this for me is a surprise.Perhaps I should have mentioned where I got my information from. I got my information about EVE from two friends who played Eve online together.
One I have known for six years, and the other friend I have known for 20 years. We have all played D&D and now Pathfinder together for a very long time. I think they both are reasonable observant and intelligent people, and well I trust their judgment. My longer-term friend the one I have known for 20 years was the one who described EVE as a sociopathic cesspool. I think they know me well enough to recognize a game I would not enjoy playing.
All of that being said, I am willing to give Eve a try. You are right it is much better to have an opinion based on personal experience and observation, then relying on the views of others.
While I have my misgivings about non-consensual PVPing, I am willing to give Pathfinder online a try when it comes out. Who knows, I may even like it.
I may not. But I will at least try my best to give the game a try and a fair chance.
Again thank you for taking the time to read my posts,
Myles Crocker.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thumbs up to Elyas for style and manners.
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...sanctuary...
Implementing a way to avoid non-consensual PvP makes it a consensual PvP game.
.I think PvP is overrated and unecessary outside of specific zones.
You don't seem to understand.
Player driven sandbox MMOs don't need consensual PvP (aka an esports option) at all. So you could as well say I want PFO to have no PvP, which would certainly be possible.
However, if you look at EvE, many of the things going on there that are not PvP actually happen because there is the threat of non-consensual PvP.
So just as conflict has always be a major factor in the history of man it enriches player driven sandbox MMOs a lot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dunno about very leery, but I think even some hardcore PvPr's are a little leery about it. No one becomes a PvP god overnight, and they're just as much fodder as everyone else as they gain levels/skill/power.
I think in towns there should be an NPC reaction if a player attacks another unprovoked (unless it's not against the law there to do so), but out in the wilderness, it's open season somewhat. It can be done so it's not a total pain in the ass. Greatly reduce any mechanical benefit (skill ups and such) to open PvP, unless in an arena or warzone, and have players "drop" gear appropriate for a MOB of their level, instead of their actual gear. It may not be overly realistic, but the realism of being vulnerable in the wilderness will still be real, and it can still be fun, like a game is supposed to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Non-consensual pvp is a must for a sandbox game. It adds a thrill and excitement to a pve backdrop. What has to occur is that players are invested in their characters.. you're not going to make a character and get to cap in a week or month like other MMO's. No caps / soft caps do this. Players form their own societies and eventually begin to police griefers themselves.
I played a open PVP game for 8 years and only was gank killed without consent once or twice. Why? Because people who participated in these grief kills were quickly brought to justice by other players. Somebody who has years of time invested in a player character is not going to want to ruin their reputation.. or maybe they will by role-playing a villain. However, role-playing a villian is very different than griefing and generally the victims will have some clue as to what's happening beforehand.
Everyone is anti pvp because they haven't seen it work yet. I'm telling you it can and will work in a sandbox game. Yes there has to be some game mechanics that limit it (kill in town, 2 days in the town dungeon).
I have a question for the 'no non-consensual pvp' crowd, and I figure this could be a good place to ask it rather than starting up a new thread.
How would you react to Pathfinder Online in the month or two following launch, if it DID have full non-consensual PvP with various restrictions in place and proved itself to not be the horror you all believe it will be.
Feel free to include pessimistic "not possible" stuff in your posts if you see fit, but please be sure to also include an answer to the "what if" I presented.
Something I was thinking about while reading these posts:
One of the differences between an MMO (or any videogame) and Pathfinder tabletop, or real life for that matter, is the consequences of ones actions. IRL - you die, you die. Pathfinder, you die, and you need to have some friends resurrect you at an exorbitant (sometimes) cost. In an MMO you wait, what? 20 mins tops to be back in the game.
There was some talk of harsh consequences in-game of killing other folks. Will we form posses of man hunters to take out the killers? It only works if the guy stays dead. In a similar track, we can have the city guards throw someone in prison(vendorbuybankguards?), and potentially order their execution. This is a role-playing game right?
What mechanics would keep someone from knifing someone else in the back in the middle of town? What keeps the number of crazed megalomaniacal killers down? Otherwise you have a disproportionate number of killers in the world. Some crime, okay. Too much and you turn to the (unrealistic for Pathfinder) apocalyptic setting like Felucca in UO.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Thank you all for your posts.
I will admit I am still very leery about non consentual PVP. My reservations have not been resolved, and short of actually playing the game, there probably wont be a way to resolve them.
That is fine. I'm willing to give pathfinder online a try and a fair chance.
again thank you all for sharing your thoughts and opinions about non consentual PVP. I have enjoyed reading this thread.
If it continues i will continue to read and comment here and there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What mechanics would keep someone from knifing someone else in the back in the middle of town? What keeps the number of crazed megalomaniacal killers down?
Some of the concerns here have been answered/explained by RD himself in the Blog thread.
In short:
- you will not be able to gain much from randomly knifing pcs in town
- you will be hunted by other players and being killed 24/7 on sight after not gaining much be antisocial behavior
- there will be a lot of other things to do that gain you much
However it still stands: PFO will NOT be a game for casuals hopping into once a month, knowing noone and expecting to solo in peace for one or two hours.
Imho no MMO should be for this kind of player but a lot of them are and it shows.
MMOs are about cooperation. In PFO you will need to do so in order to archiever much of anything and to avoid being a victim 23/6.
How about those of us who log in once every couple of days and get one for and would like to not getted jumped for the 20-30 hours i play a week. This game is not even for me from what Ryan has said since ill reap the smallest reward for trying to enjoy the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless you spend your time and try to get into a guild so whenever you log on there will be friends to help you and you will spend your time helping friends for mutual gain.
Running in a group is almost always a sure way to not getting ganked.
But if you want to log into a game to quest in solitutde I can really recommend Skyrim, which is a great game for such an approach.
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Yeah i know currently kicking its ass. However its got this issues where my friends can't log into my game and run around with me.........
Wait that cuz its not an MMO which is what we are dicussing guess that means your need to insinuate that i need to not even bother playing MMO's is highly unneeded.
And from experience the guilds that will be on top of this kind of game world will require more time than my wife, son, job, weekly gaming group, and sleep allow. So once again they have made a game that requires me to to either enjoy the kiddie pool or constantly lose my stuff and suffer whatever death penalties they decide on are to actually be more than knee deep in the game.
This is the first PF MMO thats why we hang around and voice our opinions.
This is the first PF MMO thats why we hang around and voice our opinions.
^^ Exactly.
Also, telling us simply to leave just makes the divide all the more evident.
Miss the point much the point is that everyone has and is entitled to post their opinions about the game. And had everyone just accepted 4E their would be no PF.
No one is insulting you choice to enjoy the game but apparently since our opinon of what we want isn't yours our thread should be blocked?
This thread is for those of us who are as the title says leery of the games pvp direction. We are hear to let the devs know where we stand not a single person has yet to cry or threatened to boycott in fact most of have said that is proably not be for us not that everyone should avoid the game.
If you don't want to hear the anti-pvp crowd stay out of threads that are for that crowd.
And had everyone just accepted 4E their would be no PF. There is a market for it because some people didn't like what was offered and by these boards there is a market for a consensual pvp PFO as well.
Goblinworks Founder
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No one is insulting you choice to enjoy the game but apparently since our opinon of what we want isn't yours our thread should be blocked?This thread is for those of us who are as the title says leery of the games pvp direction. We are hear to let the devs know where we stand not a single person has yet to cry or threatened to boycott in fact most of have said that is proably not be for us not that everyone should avoid the game.
If you don't want to hear the anti-pvp crowd stay out of threads that are for that crowd.
The thread title asks a specific question "Are there any players who are very leefy of non consensual PvP?"
Yes, I am Leery of non-consensual PvP IF there is no consequence for criminal behaviour.
I am leery of non-consensual PvP IF there is no sufficient penalty for death.
I am leery of non-consensual PvP IF there is no risk.
I am leery of non-consensual PvP if there is themepark itemization of gear.
I am leery of non-consensual PvP if the gap between high skill/low skill make a veteran invincible.
I am leery of non-consensual PvP if the gap between common gear and rare gear make a well geared player invincible.
I am leery of non-consensual PvP if there is no partial or full looting.
I am leery of non-consensual PvP that favours the player killer over a group of armed gatherers.
I am sick of seeing the same argument digressing into accusations, name-calling and hyperbole over multiple threads.
To answer the thread topic, Yes I am leery of non-consensual PvP, do I still want to see it work? Yes.
Do I want separate PvE servers or instanced e-sport PvP matches? No
Will I be able to play through the game doing quests and exploring dungeons without ever engaging in PVP if I have no interest in joining a kingdom or faction or claiming territory or resources for myself?
Your ability to do so will result in your character getting the lowest reward for the time spent - low (or no) risk means low reward.
Do I believe that the above is justified when high risk - high reward might mean you risk a kingdom to take a kingdom? Yes.
Is defeating a dragon and taking it's treasure as rewarding as invading a country and sacking it's treasury vaults? that would depend on the risk no? How much are you risking to go to war against a dragon? maybe a few hours of your day. How much will they be risking by going to war against another nation? It could be months worth of planning and hoarding resources not including the risk that they could lose their own lands if they are routed.
Did it occur to you that Ryan may have been thinking of Risk - Reward at that scale?
Another thing I worry of is that the ones who wanna play PvE style and avoid PvP completely would probably reflect this with their gear, and this of course will lead to griefing of a different sort. I could seriously imagine some PvP players throw "lol noob go play WoW" and other such comments towards people like that, and ruin their day without even killing them. And given my cynical view on most online communities, I am quite sure someone will prove me right about this sooner or later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a sandbox gear is a function of what players/crafters I know and not of what content I run.
Thus you do not need to fear that if you do not want to actively take part in PvP your gear will be bad, quite the opposite.
And:
"A cynic will always be proven right, sooner or later."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another thing I worry of is that the ones who wanna play PvE style and avoid PvP completely would probably reflect this with their gear, and this of course will lead to griefing of a different sort. I could seriously imagine some PvP players throw "lol noob go play WoW" and other such comments towards people like that, and ruin their day without even killing them. And given my cynical view on most online communities, I am quite sure someone will prove me right about this sooner or later.
Well of course, every community in every game has jerks like that. There are even jerks in some tabletop groups, and some tabletop groups in which that is a majority of the players. You find a guild of like-minded players and stick with them and ignore the jerks.
@Micman
...how does that make any sense? Did you just claim that those who do PvP will not have good gear in comparison to those who PvE, even though it was clearly said PvE players "will be reaping the lowest reward" ?
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Goblinworks Founder
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Another thing I worry of is that the ones who wanna play PvE style and avoid PvP completely would probably reflect this with their gear, and this of course will lead to griefing of a different sort. I could seriously imagine some PvP players throw "lol noob go play WoW" and other such comments towards people like that, and ruin their day without even killing them. And given my cynical view on most online communities, I am quite sure someone will prove me right about this sooner or later.
Unfortunately you will get that in just about every online game whether it is on the Xbox or the PC. Trash talking is an unfortunate sacrifice we have to put up with in order to play online games. Just be glad that you can put these people on an ignore list in MMO's, you can't with most other online games.
I hate trash talkers.. there is a big difference between having a friendly taunt between players after/during pvp and the arrogant asshats that whisper you endlessly after they repeatedly kill you.
I hope for your sake that one day a game community will surprise you enough to soften your cynical view of online communities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did you just claim that those who do PvP will not have good gear in comparison to those who PvE, even though it was clearly said PvE players "will be reaping the lowest reward" ?
No, it has never been said that those who only PvE will have worse gear than those who mainly PvP.
It has been said that those who want to PvE without any RISK of PvP (i.e. in a safe zone) will reap the lowest reward FOR YOUR TIME.
To sum it up:
- the best gear is coming from other players via crafting
- to afford this gear you have to spend resources
- if you PvE in risky zones you can get more resources in the same time than in save zones
Sooo, there is NO reason that someone who never ever does risk the chance of PvP should not have the same gear - it just will take that much longer.
AND, if you enter risky zones where you MIGHT have PvP you can try to avoid it and also get higher rewards in PvP without PvPing, it is just that you might need to PvP when you get attacked.
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Goblinworks Founder
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This thread should really be locked. It's not achieving anything.
I do not understand why people continue to hang around if they are not interested in the games direction.
What direction would that be? The only thing I have seen is the Goblinworks blog and that just says its going to be sandbox oriented as opposed to theme park oriented.
If there is a more definitive link to what this direction is, please post.
Are you kidding me? the non-consensual pvp direction. Ryan has made it quite clear in numerous posts. It's 2am here, I'm not going to do your research for you.