The Eldritch Archer, Rethinking the Magus.

[Cloyes]

what about multi-classing into Zen Archer for 3+ levels.
this would be a int/wis build but allow for flurry options, plus a ton of bonus bow feats. if you are allowed to use the new unchained monk Zen Archer option it would even be better with full BAB and d10 HD.

[Falxu]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

If you are just 1 level behind in spellcasting/caster level advancement, is Magical Knack really worth it? You are only getting half of the benefit.

To some people, 1d6 damage is important, to others it is not. You can take Called instead for an pseudo extra gun clear, or Reactionary for initiative.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Also, what's the deal with Wayang Spellhunter? I have also seen this elsewhere, where everybody seems to ignore the part about actually being a Wayang to get this trait (people seem to be using an oversight in the wording of the trait).

This is all I have to go on for it:

Archives of Nethys wrote:

Source Dragon Empires Primer pg. 14 (Amazon)

Category Region
Requirement(s) Minata
You grew up on one of the wayang-populated islands of Minata, and your use of magic while hunting has been a boon to you. Select a spell of 3rd level or below. When you use this spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.

I'm sure people will point out that it does not say anything about being Wayang, the actual book might be different?

Cloyes wrote:

what about multi-classing into Zen Archer for 3+ levels.

this would be a int/wis build but allow for flurry options, plus a ton of bonus bow feats. if you are allowed to use the new unchained monk Zen Archer option it would even be better with full BAB and d10 HD.

Flurry of Blows is a full round action that conflicts with Spell Combat (which is a full round action itself). I think you would probably be better off going fighter for the extra feat?

[Cloyes]

with 3-4 levels of eldritch archer, 3-4 levels of Zen monk then prestige of arcane archer you have 1-2 off full BAB, d10 HD , possibility of mixing ki and arcana pools, a ton of bow specific feats which I am pretty much sure beat fighter as some don't require prereqs, and all of this while retaining most (more than half at least) of your spell casting progression

[LuniasM]

I built one myself for fun a few hours ago and found that it's pretty tough to get those high-damage spikes like the melee magus does (until you get Named Bullet through Spell Blending anyway). What I did find was the Death of a Thousand Cuts that is so common to archers already works much better than normal. With Haste, Rapid+Manyshot, and Spell Combat (plus a quickened spell for another attack) you should be getting 8 arrows a round. 6 of those are at your highest BAB. If you simply add Flaming to your bow you can deal up to 8d6 bonus damage every round, and you can typically add way more than just 1d6 per hit. Just make sure to get Clustered Shots and avoid elements the enemy resists.

Oh, and access to Point-Blank Master helps a lot later on when enemies get reach more often.

[Falxu]

Cloyes wrote:

with 3-4 levels of eldritch archer, 3-4 levels of Zen monk then prestige of arcane archer you have 1-2 off full BAB, d10 HD , possibility of mixing ki and arcana pools, a ton of bow specific feats which I am pretty much sure beat fighter as some don't require prereqs, and all of this while retaining most (more than half at least) of your spell casting progression

Sorry, I still don't see what you are trying to do here with the Frankenstein build.

At 11th level, you are putting out 5d6 snowballs + 2d8 arrows + static damage modifiers. You cannot flurry and snowball, so I am guessing you want to mix and match spellstrike and flurry during combat. You need to hit 5th Magus in order to get specials on your bow.

Whereas an 11th level Eldritch Archer is throwing out 10d6 snowballs + 6d6 arrows (haste) + static modifiers AND +3 weapon enchants. I'm not familiar enough with Zen Archer Monk to comment precisely, but I'm sure at 11th level that straight class is going to do more damage than a Magus/Monk multiclass.

[tab4]

Frostbite! (Reach Spell Metamagic and then retrain at level 9)

1d6+level damage on every attack, definitely use Rapid Shot and Manyshot. Stops people from charging you and makes them easier to hit after your first shot. Rime spell still works wonders (and slows their movement even more, might not be able to get to you without a double move since they can't charge). All for a 1st level spell slot (2nd level if you need to use reach+rime)

Besides that I think battlefield control spell + a little single target DPS.

[Falxu]

You'll have to choose some archery feat to put off to take Reach Metamagic. You also need to deal with SR.

Snowball does more damage, has a staggered effect w/save, and bypasses SR. Eventually does fireball-like damage (intensify metamagic) that is relevant up to 20th level

The special riders both suffer equally against Undead (cannot be fatigued, ignore effects with CON save) but the damage against cold resistant creatures (a lot of undead) hits Frostbite extremely hard.

[tab4]

Reach metamagic opens up chill touch to deal with undead. (forget undead being cold resistant, they are immune to nonlethal) Multiple SOS every round.
I don't think adding reach delays archery as much as you think.

1 point blank
3 precise
5 reach and rapid shot

First 2 are locked in and you're still getting rapid shot at 5. Might be different for a human. Also can be retrained at level nine (when we actually qualify for manyshot/clustered shot, etc)

Dr is indeed brutal but that hasn't stopped a ton of melee kensai so I don't know why it should stop us. Obviously a backup plan is necessary.

[Falxu]

I suppose for PFS or the like it would work. I don't play that, and the campaigns I play in don't have regular retraining (in this case, we are going through an adventure path and we only get down time after we complete a book). Essentially you are trading out Intensify for Reach. Since we get Reach Metamagic as an arcana choice at 9th, I am not taking it early.

Not taking rapid shot that early as you already have it with spell combat, and more minuses doesn't help the early levels.

1 Point Blank Shot
3 Precise Shot, (Arcana: Spell Blending: Gravity Bow)
5 Weapon Focus (Longbow), Craft Wondrous Item (you can take something else here)
6 (Arcana: Wand Wielder, Arcane Accuracy)
7 Intensify Spell
9 Rapid Shot, (Arcana: Reach Spellstrike)
11 Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Point Blank Master
12 (Arcana: Spell Blending: Named Bullet, Maximize Magic)
13 Snapshot
15 Improved Snapshot, (Arcana: Distance Spellstrike)

(I'm an elf, thus the extra arcana FCB)

Only 4th level so far in RotRL, not sure this is the best way to go, but I think it works out. I'm the only arcane in the group, thus I figured we'd need (and I need) Craft Wondrous Item.

PS Precise Shot at 3rd level is horribly incredibly painful. I now understand why every level 1 archer is a human...

[tab4]

I'm with you on the precise shot thing. I'm level 2 now. :(

You don't have manyshot in your build at the moment which I think needs to be your level nine feat. So.. even if you don't think you'll use it I still think you should be taking rapid shot at five.. (and I think sometimes you'll still use it, if only in conjunction with arcane accuracy or when you are not spellstriking and instead greasing or stone calling or whatnot)

1 pbs
3 precise, arcane acc
5 rapid, reach
7 rime
9 manyshot (retrain reach to something.. wf?)

That's about as far as I've planned my build.

[Falxu]

Rapid Shot works early for you since you are using Chill Shot and you don't have to spell combat a cantrip.

But... if you read Reach Spellstrike, I do not think you can use Chill Shot the way you are assuming. Reach Spellstrike allows you to put multi-charge ranged spells to use by firing them up to your allotment of attacks in a Full Attack action plus your Spellstrike.

In other words, at level 4, chill touch will allow you to fire twice (Spellstrike + regular attack) and gain +1d6 for each attack then the spell ends and the extra charges disappear.

Ranged Spellstrike wrote:

If the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies each attack; if the spell allows multiple attacks and the eldritch archer can make additional ranged attacks as part of a full-round action with spell combat, one additional ray, missile, or effect from the spell accompanies each subsequent ranged attack the eldritch archer makes in the same round until all attacks allowed by the spell are made. Unused missiles, rays, or effects remaining at the end of the eldritch archer's turn are wasted.

Emphasis mine.

Snowball is looking to be the champ it seems...

[Typelouder]

I been toying with the idea of going Gunslinger (either just a dip or the 5 levels) into Eldritch archer. Since I am mostly limited by the range of the spells which have similar range as the guns.

I have to take the time and look at the spellslinger Wizard archetype and see how that would go.

[Torbyne]

Falxu wrote:

Rapid Shot works early for you since you are using Chill Shot and you don't have to spell combat a cantrip.

But... if you read Reach Spellstrike, I do not think you can use Chill Shot the way you are assuming. Reach Spellstrike allows you to put multi-charge ranged spells to use by firing them up to your allotment of attacks in a Full Attack action plus your Spellstrike.

In other words, at level 4, chill touch will allow you to fire twice (Spellstrike + regular attack) and gain +1d6 for each attack then the spell ends and the extra charges disappear.

Ranged Spellstrike wrote:

If the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies each attack; if the spell allows multiple attacks and the eldritch archer can make additional ranged attacks as part of a full-round action with spell combat, one additional ray, missile, or effect from the spell accompanies each subsequent ranged attack the eldritch archer makes in the same round until all attacks allowed by the spell are made. Unused missiles, rays, or effects remaining at the end of the eldritch archer's turn are wasted.

Emphasis mine.

Snowball is looking to be the champ it seems...

I was under the impression that only applied to spells that normally discharge multiple effects at once, scorching ray for instance. Charge per level spells that are normally used over multiple rounds will still work normally, yeah?

[Falxu]

I don't know for sure, but the language seems to indicate no. The same language is found under the Myrmidarch archtype as well.

You could probably convince your GM to make it work, but they way I'm seeing the Rule as Written is that anything left over is wasted (gone).

This makes some sort of sense as melee touch spells are more dangerous to utilize and thus tend to be more powerful than ranged spells.

Now... if you use Reach Metamagic, but do not spellstrike with it... I would assume you can freely range touch attack up to your BAB - and more? Does Rapid Shot work with ranged touch attack spells?

[mogwen]

Maybe the ghost blade arcana could help with all these penalties, adding brilliant energy ability to your arrows could help!

[Torbyne]

Falxu wrote:

I don't know for sure, but the language seems to indicate no. The same language is found under the Myrmidarch archtype as well.

You could probably convince your GM to make it work, but they way I'm seeing the Rule as Written is that anything left over is wasted (gone).

This makes some sort of sense as melee touch spells are more dangerous to utilize and thus tend to be more powerful than ranged spells.

Now... if you use Reach Metamagic, but do not spellstrike with it... I would assume you can freely range touch attack up to your BAB - and more? Does Rapid Shot work with ranged touch attack spells?

So hey, lets get into the ambiguity of the English language! I'll start. :P *ahem*

"if the spell allows multiple attacks" so, i will parse this as meaning a spell that allows multiple simultaneous attacks from a single casting. As opposed to the charge/level spells which allow a single attack as part of the casting and then leave you with additional rider effects you can discharge as part of other, non spell casting, attacks not granted by the original spell. Granted that is an interpretation that, while i believe is valid, is specifically worded to allow frostbite and chill touch to eventually be useful. It also makes Rapid Shot and Manyshot worthwhile to dump out extra hits on a full attacks on rounds after the casting.

Basically, the charge per level spells dont allow multiple attacks, they just augment your regular attacks after you cast them.

Maybe?

[master_marshmallow]

I had a build for one of these that I was pretty pleased with. I went Eldritch Archer 8/Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Archer 2/Eldritch Knight 8.

With Magical Knack, you end up with full CL, BAB 17, and an effective fighter level of 13 for access to more feats.
VMC Fighter adds in weapon training 2, which means you have access to gloves of dueling and bracers of greater archery for dumb good damage.

[Torbyne]

VMC is a big let down for me, it gives up a ton and doesn't seem to make up for that until level 11 which is basically the end of most campaigns.

[Skylancer4]

Torbyne wrote:

Falxu wrote:

I don't know for sure, but the language seems to indicate no. The same language is found under the Myrmidarch archtype as well.

You could probably convince your GM to make it work, but they way I'm seeing the Rule as Written is that anything left over is wasted (gone).

This makes some sort of sense as melee touch spells are more dangerous to utilize and thus tend to be more powerful than ranged spells.

Now... if you use Reach Metamagic, but do not spellstrike with it... I would assume you can freely range touch attack up to your BAB - and more? Does Rapid Shot work with ranged touch attack spells?

So hey, lets get into the ambiguity of the English language! I'll start. :P *ahem*

"if the spell allows multiple attacks" so, i will parse this as meaning a spell that allows multiple simultaneous attacks from a single casting. As opposed to the charge/level spells which allow a single attack as part of the casting and then leave you with additional rider effects you can discharge as part of other, non spell casting, attacks not granted by the original spell. Granted that is an interpretation that, while i believe is valid, is specifically worded to allow frostbite and chill touch to eventually be useful. It also makes Rapid Shot and Manyshot worthwhile to dump out extra hits on a full attacks on rounds after the casting.

Basically, the charge per level spells dont allow multiple attacks, they just augment your regular attacks after you cast them.

Maybe?

Unfortunately, the specific rules of the ability would override the general rules of the spell. If you use the ability, it works the way the ability states, you lose the rest of the effect that you might have normally gotten.

Think of it as a cost to it ignoring the typical spell slot increase, feat investment and having an effectively unlimited way to increase and toss spells at range.

[Cloyes]

Skylancer4 wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

Falxu wrote:

I don't know for sure, but the language seems to indicate no. The same language is found under the Myrmidarch archtype as well.

You could probably convince your GM to make it work, but they way I'm seeing the Rule as Written is that anything left over is wasted (gone).

This makes some sort of sense as melee touch spells are more dangerous to utilize and thus tend to be more powerful than ranged spells.

Now... if you use Reach Metamagic, but do not spellstrike with it... I would assume you can freely range touch attack up to your BAB - and more? Does Rapid Shot work with ranged touch attack spells?

So hey, lets get into the ambiguity of the English language! I'll start. :P *ahem*

"if the spell allows multiple attacks" so, i will parse this as meaning a spell that allows multiple simultaneous attacks from a single casting. As opposed to the charge/level spells which allow a single attack as part of the casting and then leave you with additional rider effects you can discharge as part of other, non spell casting, attacks not granted by the original spell. Granted that is an interpretation that, while i believe is valid, is specifically worded to allow frostbite and chill touch to eventually be useful. It also makes Rapid Shot and Manyshot worthwhile to dump out extra hits on a full attacks on rounds after the casting.

Basically, the charge per level spells dont allow multiple attacks, they just augment your regular attacks after you cast them.

Maybe?

Unfortunately, the specific rules of the ability would override the general rules of the spell. If you use the ability, it works the way the ability states, you lose the rest of the effect that you might have normally gotten.

Think of it as a cost to it ignoring the typical spell slot increase, feat investment and having an effectively unlimited way to increase and toss spells at...

could you please state your reasoning for this other than your personal opinion? Skylancer4 has made a case for the fact that this not multiple attacks but is similar to a duration effect like gravity bow or flame arrow.

James Jacobs has come out saying that chill touch and the like are out side of normal scope "chill touch is a weird spell. the touch attacks it grants do not function as "held charges." they don't disappear if you cast another spell, and the spell is pretty vague on how long the effect last............" by using your logic one could easily say that gravity bow or flame arrow are also 1 round effects as they allow multiple attacks

[Cloyes]

Falxu wrote:

Cloyes wrote:

with 3-4 levels of eldritch archer, 3-4 levels of Zen monk then prestige of arcane archer you have 1-2 off full BAB, d10 HD , possibility of mixing ki and arcana pools, a ton of bow specific feats which I am pretty much sure beat fighter as some don't require prereqs, and all of this while retaining most (more than half at least) of your spell casting progression

Sorry, I still don't see what you are trying to do here with the Frankenstein build.

At 11th level, you are putting out 5d6 snowballs + 2d8 arrows + static damage modifiers. You cannot flurry and snowball, so I am guessing you want to mix and match spellstrike and flurry during combat. You need to hit 5th Magus in order to get specials on your bow.

Whereas an 11th level Eldritch Archer is throwing out 10d6 snowballs + 6d6 arrows (haste) + static modifiers AND +3 weapon enchants. I'm not familiar enough with Zen Archer Monk to comment precisely, but I'm sure at 11th level that straight class is going to do more damage than a Magus/Monk multiclass.

to answer you, this Frankenstein build has 9d6 snowballs plus 9/9/9/7/2 spell combat/haste enhanced (+1) elemental (1d6) arrows per round with no arcana investment but for free! also 3 levels of Zen Archer nets you point blank master, weapon focus bow, perfect strike, plus 2 bonus feats from:Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot with NO PREREQs in addition to your normal feats at this level. Arcane Archer also adds imbue arrow and Seeker arrow look these up because they can be cool. so if we are lacking any in damage output we are more than making up in versatility and durability

[Torbyne]

Skylancer4 wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

Falxu wrote:

I don't know for sure, but the language seems to indicate no. The same language is found under the Myrmidarch archtype as well.

You could probably convince your GM to make it work, but they way I'm seeing the Rule as Written is that anything left over is wasted (gone).

This makes some sort of sense as melee touch spells are more dangerous to utilize and thus tend to be more powerful than ranged spells.

Now... if you use Reach Metamagic, but do not spellstrike with it... I would assume you can freely range touch attack up to your BAB - and more? Does Rapid Shot work with ranged touch attack spells?

So hey, lets get into the ambiguity of the English language! I'll start. :P *ahem*

"if the spell allows multiple attacks" so, i will parse this as meaning a spell that allows multiple simultaneous attacks from a single casting. As opposed to the charge/level spells which allow a single attack as part of the casting and then leave you with additional rider effects you can discharge as part of other, non spell casting, attacks not granted by the original spell. Granted that is an interpretation that, while i believe is valid, is specifically worded to allow frostbite and chill touch to eventually be useful. It also makes Rapid Shot and Manyshot worthwhile to dump out extra hits on a full attacks on rounds after the casting.

Basically, the charge per level spells dont allow multiple attacks, they just augment your regular attacks after you cast them.

Maybe?

Unfortunately, the specific rules of the ability would override the general rules of the spell. If you use the ability, it works the way the ability states, you lose the rest of the effect that you might have normally gotten.

Think of it as a cost to it ignoring the typical spell slot increase, feat investment and having an effectively unlimited way to increase and toss spells at...

You have to ascribe more to the rules than they say for your interpretation to work. The specific change to how spells work when used to Ranged Spell Strike states extra attacks granted by the spell are lost. The charge per level spells grant only one attack as part of the initial casting. By the strictest reading of the rule i could see an argument that if you dont use that free attack as part of the casting then that charge is lost but any additional attack riding effects granted by your level will remain and can be discharged in subsequent rounds. You could make another argument that charge per level spells cant be used at all with Ranged Spell Strike because the ability says it only works "when you cast a spell..." but that text is in regular spell strike too and no one ever says you cant spell strike additional charges of frostbite.

[Falxu]

Cloyes wrote:

Falxu wrote:

Cloyes wrote:

with 3-4 levels of eldritch archer, 3-4 levels of Zen monk then prestige of arcane archer you have 1-2 off full BAB, d10 HD , possibility of mixing ki and arcana pools, a ton of bow specific feats which I am pretty much sure beat fighter as some don't require prereqs, and all of this while retaining most (more than half at least) of your spell casting progression

Sorry, I still don't see what you are trying to do here with the Frankenstein build.

At 11th level, you are putting out 5d6 snowballs + 2d8 arrows + static damage modifiers. You cannot flurry and snowball, so I am guessing you want to mix and match spellstrike and flurry during combat. You need to hit 5th Magus in order to get specials on your bow.

Whereas an 11th level Eldritch Archer is throwing out 10d6 snowballs + 6d6 arrows (haste) + static modifiers AND +3 weapon enchants. I'm not familiar enough with Zen Archer Monk to comment precisely, but I'm sure at 11th level that straight class is going to do more damage than a Magus/Monk multiclass.

to answer you, this Frankenstein build has 9d6 snowballs plus 9/9/9/7/2 spell combat/haste enhanced (+1) elemental (1d6) arrows per round with no arcana investment but for free! also 3 levels of Zen Archer nets you point blank master, weapon focus bow, perfect strike, plus 2 bonus feats from:Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot with NO PREREQs in addition to your normal feats at this level. Arcane Archer also adds imbue arrow and Seeker arrow look these up because they can be cool. so if we are lacking any in damage output we are more than making up in versatility and durability

Well, either I'm dense, inexperienced in making multi-class characters, or something else because I cannot figure out how you are getting:

• 9d6 Snowballs
  
• 5 attacks
  
• haste

I suppose Arcane Archer could be handy, if you want to shoot area spells with your bow. The elemental damage is nice, but the enhancement on the arrows is useless since your bow will be +1 before you get the prestige class. Just my opinion, but I feel spell casting progression is important to get key spells as soon as possible in order to put them to use as early as possible (especially as the only arcane caster in the group).

[Typelouder]

How are you getting 6d6 arrows?

[Tayse]

Probably an atrocity of an idea for a player character, but for a trick encounter using a Small band of elven eldritch archer/spell dancers with dimensional assault you could convince the party they're surrounded.

[Falxu]

Typelouder wrote:

How are you getting 6d6 arrows?

Level 3: Magus Arcana: Spell Blending: Gravity Bow

[Typelouder]

Falxu wrote:

Typelouder wrote:

How are you getting 6d6 arrows?

Level 3: Magus Arcana: Spell Blending: Gravity Bow

gotcha, Thanks!

[isdestroyer]

Okay, question: for my gun-wielding Eldritch Archer, if I take a level in Spellslinger for the arcane gun ability, do my spells used with spellstike have a x3 crit multiplier?

Here is the relevant text from arcane gun and spellstrike:

PFSRD said wrote:

Spellstrike (Su)

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

PFSRD said wrote:

Arcane Gun (Su)

The spellslinger gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one or two of his firearms can be arcane guns. Arcane guns are normal one-handed or two-handed firearms in the hands of others, as they were normal firearms before the spellslinger imbued them with magic. In a spellslinger’s hands, they both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and cast magic. At 1st level, the spellslinger decides whether he wants to have one or two arcane guns at a time. If the spellslinger chooses to have only one arcane gun at a time, spells fired through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a ×3 critical hit multiplier.

I want to say that spells with an attack roll having a x2 multiplier is a general rule, and so would be overridden by the specific rule of arcane gun, but I just want to make sure.

[Heretek]

isdestroyer wrote:

I want to say that spells with an attack roll having a x2 multiplier is a general rule, and so would be overridden by the specific rule of arcane gun, but I just want to make sure.

There is no FAQ but the above makes the most sense, so yes, you get the x3 crit.

[Gisher]

If you are delivering the spell using (Ranged) Spellstrike, then you have to follow the rules for Spellstrike so you only have x2.

[isdestroyer]

Gisher wrote:

If you are delivering the spell using (Ranged) Spellstrike, then you have to follow the rules for Spellstrike so you only have x2.

That's originally what I thought too, so I looked up the rules for touch spells;

PFSRD said wrote:

Touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

The difference with spellstrike is that the spell uses the crit range of the weapon. I guess that qualifies as a modification to the rule, but it still uses the touch spell crit multiplier of x2. Now, that sentence right there is what I like to call "splitting hairs". We're arguing over rule points so fine that the arguments on both sides are meaningless.

The question, "does the arcane gun ability from the spellslinger archetype allow an eldritch archer magus archetype to have spells with a x3 crit multiplier when he uses ranged spellstrike?" becomes the question of "is the crit multiplier of spellstrike a generic rule, or a specific rule?". And I think that is a question that will never be FAQ'ed as it is such a corner case that the developers won't see a need to expend time and resources researching it. Thus, it is regulated to table variance, and so I chose to go with the argument that lets me get my cool and fun effect.

Also, I know that I asked the boards for clarification on this, and that I just answered with my own clarification, but that was because I realized that I was asking a question that can't really be answered. But I do thank you guys for taking the time to answer.

[Typelouder]

Falxu wrote:

Typelouder wrote:

How are you getting 6d6 arrows?

Level 3: Magus Arcana: Spell Blending: Gravity Bow

So I know I replied, but I just got around to looking at gravity bow again, and I am still not sure how you are getting 6d6 arrows.

Gravity bow gets you from 1d8 to 2d6. Enlarged + Gravity Bow would be 3d6.

Thanks. Sorry again.

[Falxu]

Typelouder wrote:

Falxu wrote:

Typelouder wrote:

How are you getting 6d6 arrows?

Level 3: Magus Arcana: Spell Blending: Gravity Bow

So I know I replied, but I just got around to looking at gravity bow again, and I am still not sure how you are getting 6d6 arrows.

Gravity bow gets you from 1d8 to 2d6. Enlarged + Gravity Bow would be 3d6.

Thanks. Sorry again.

1d8 -> 2d6 single arrow damage. At 11th, you have 2 natural attacks and spellstrike, making 3 attacks at 2d6 which is 6d6. Add another 2d6 when (or if) you get around to casting haste.

I would assume you would start combat by casting haste (for you and your party), then gravity bow, then intensified snowball at the nastiest thing in the room... all the while shooting arrows at the same time you are buffing (which is why I love the magus SO much).

[Falxu]

isdestroyer wrote:

Also, I know that I asked the boards for clarification on this, and that I just answered with my own clarification, but that was because I realized that I was asking a question that can't really be answered. But I do thank you guys for taking the time to answer.

It is kind of splitting hairs, and I got into it as well. Until I realized what it would take to make it happen and the power level of others.

Let's assume you get the x3 on spellstrikes. Let's assume that you want to pull off the Named Bullet Disintegrate spellstrike with your firearm (ie auto critt'ing disintegrate at x3). Regardless of the feat investiture (which is massive btw), you'll be casting this combo at 17th level.

The same level Wizards are casting Wish (among other 9th level spells).

So while 96d6 damage (aw hell, you've taken Magical Knack right? so I'll give you those other 6d6) or 102d6 damage is really really alot (yeah, you are going to annoy everyone else at the table while you spend an hour rolling dice and doing math), it should be on par with the other 9th level spells being tossed around.

[Typelouder]

Falxu wrote:

Typelouder wrote:

Falxu wrote:

Typelouder wrote:

How are you getting 6d6 arrows?

Level 3: Magus Arcana: Spell Blending: Gravity Bow

So I know I replied, but I just got around to looking at gravity bow again, and I am still not sure how you are getting 6d6 arrows.

Gravity bow gets you from 1d8 to 2d6. Enlarged + Gravity Bow would be 3d6.

Thanks. Sorry again.

1d8 -> 2d6 single arrow damage. At 11th, you have 2 natural attacks and spellstrike, making 3 attacks at 2d6 which is 6d6. Add another 2d6 when (or if) you get around to casting haste.

I would assume you would start combat by casting haste (for you and your party), then gravity bow, then intensified snowball at the nastiest thing in the room... all the while shooting arrows at the same time you are buffing (which is why I love the magus SO much).

Oh Ok, See I thought you meant each individual arrow was 6d6, That is the disconnect.

[Torbyne]

isdestroyer wrote:

Gisher wrote:

If you are delivering the spell using (Ranged) Spellstrike, then you have to follow the rules for Spellstrike so you only have x2.

That's originally what I thought too, so I looked up the rules for touch spells;

PFSRD said wrote:

Touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

The difference with spellstrike is that the spell uses the crit range of the weapon. I guess that qualifies as a modification to the rule, but it still uses the touch spell crit multiplier of x2. Now, that sentence right there is what I like to call "splitting hairs". We're arguing over rule points so fine that the arguments on both sides are meaningless.

The question, "does the arcane gun ability from the spellslinger archetype allow an eldritch archer magus archetype to have spells with a x3 crit multiplier when he uses ranged spellstrike?" becomes the question of "is the crit multiplier of spellstrike a generic rule, or a specific rule?". And I think that is a question that will never be FAQ'ed as it is such a corner case that the developers won't see a need to expend time and resources researching it. Thus, it is regulated to table variance, and so I chose to go with the argument that lets me get my cool and fun effect.

Also, I know that I asked the boards for clarification on this, and that I just answered with my own clarification, but that was because I realized that I was asking a question that can't really be answered. But I do thank you guys for taking the time to answer.

The thing about this that makes me worry is that when spell striking you add the weapon's enchantment bonus to your hit roll and Arcane Gun double dips on that. It shouldn't stack but i could see it being an argument at a lot of tables.

Also, Arcane Gun is not actually a version of Spell Strike on its own, there is nothing about firing a bullet or the spell being limited to the range of the bullet... based on that you are playing double jeopardy on misfires when you use Arcane Gun and Ranged Spell Strike at the same time. If you roll a 1 you would double misfire and go straight to explosion with no save.

So long as you are ok with 5% of all attack rolls literally blowing up in your face on a low HP chassis you can go ahead and try for a x3 modifier on a natural 20 threat weapon. Also the Eldritch Archer only gets to ignore Somatic components with their bonded weapon so if that blows up they cant just grab a back up and keep firing. It seems like a risky proposition.

Remember to grab Broad Study at level 6 to Spell Strike those few wizard spells you know... that are probably obsolete at level 6 anyways :/

[Falxu]

Torbyne wrote:

The thing about this that makes me worry is that when spell striking you add the weapon's enchantment bonus to your hit roll and Arcane Gun double dips on that. It shouldn't stack but i could see it being an argument at a lot of tables.

You cannot double dip. You can only apply a bonus once (there is a FAQ somewhere about that). If for some reason you have a save as well as to hit, you should be able to apply the gun's enhancement bonus on attack and on the save DC.

Torbyne wrote:

Also, Arcane Gun is not actually a version of Spell Strike on its own, there is nothing about firing a bullet or the spell being limited to the range of the bullet... based on that you are playing double jeopardy on misfires when you use Arcane Gun and Ranged Spell Strike at the same time. If you roll a 1 you would double misfire and go straight to explosion with no save.

So long as you are ok with 5% of all attack rolls literally blowing up in your face on a low HP chassis you can go ahead and try for a x3 modifier on a natural 20 threat weapon. Also the Eldritch Archer only gets to ignore Somatic components with their bonded weapon so if that blows up they cant just grab a back up and keep firing. It seems like a risky proposition.

You do not fire a bullet when you cast a spell through the Arcane Gun, you fire the spell through the gun. If you are not spellstriking, a spell fired through the Arcane Gun uses the spell's range.

If you are spellstriking, "...The attack does not increase the spell's range..." you could argue that it does decrease it (since it doesn't specifically say decrease) or you can argue that it doesn't (using the science term of decrease meaning negative increase).

I do not think you can double misfire, although I can see how it could be argued. You must apply the roll simultaneously, so the gun would get the broken condition (If the [arcane] gun already has the broken condition, the gun explodes)

Torbyne wrote:

Remember to grab Broad Study at level 6 to Spell Strike those few wizard spells you know... that are probably obsolete at level 6 anyways :/

I am not sure there is any CL1 wizard spell you would want to cast through your weapon.

[Gisher]

isdestroyer wrote:

Gisher wrote:

If you are delivering the spell using (Ranged) Spellstrike, then you have to follow the rules for Spellstrike so you only have x2.

That's originally what I thought too, so I looked up the rules for touch spells;

PFSRD said wrote:

Touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

The difference with spellstrike is that the spell uses the crit range of the weapon. I guess that qualifies as a modification to the rule, but it still uses the touch spell crit multiplier of x2. Now, that sentence right there is what I like to call "splitting hairs". We're arguing over rule points so fine that the arguments on both sides are meaningless.

The question, "does the arcane gun ability from the spellslinger archetype allow an eldritch archer magus archetype to have spells with a x3 crit multiplier when he uses ranged spellstrike?" becomes the question of "is the crit multiplier of spellstrike a generic rule, or a specific rule?". And I think that is a question that will never be FAQ'ed as it is such a corner case that the developers won't see a need to expend time and resources researching it. Thus, it is regulated to table variance, and so I chose to go with the argument that lets me get my cool and fun effect.

Also, I know that I asked the boards for clarification on this, and that I just answered with my own clarification, but that was because I realized that I was asking a question that can't really be answered. But I do thank you guys for taking the time to answer.

To me the answer is determined when you decide which spell slots (and therefore which ability) you are using to deliver the spell. If you are using Arcane Gun to fire a spell from your Wizard slots, then you get x3. If you are using Ranged Spellstrike to deliver a spell through a ranged attack then you get x2.

[Gisher]

For those interested in mixing archetypes, I believe that this is the complete list of possible ways to combine Eldritch Archer with other Magus archetypes. (Some other combos are possible if you can find a way to be both a Tiefling and a Suli at the same time.)

Eldritch Archer/Beastblade
Eldritch Archer/Beastblade/Staff Magus
Eldritch Archer/Elemental Knight (Suli)
Eldritch Archer/Elemental Knight (Suli)/Staff Magus
Eldritch Archer/Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)
Eldritch Archer/Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Staff Magus
Eldritch Archer/Hexcrafter
Eldritch Archer/Hexcrafter/Staff Magus
Eldritch Archer/Kapenia Dancer
Eldritch Archer/Kensai
Eldritch Archer/Myrmidarch
Eldritch Archer/Spire Defender
Eldritch Archer/Staff Magus

[Quintain]

Torbyne wrote:

...

Strangely enough the archetype retains Greater Spell Combat which only applies to an ability the archetype trades out.
...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if an archetype replaces one of multiple dependent abilities, does that not just have the upper level ones substitute for the lower level ones?

Example: Spell Combat and Greater Spell Combat.

In the case of this archetype, the character would get Spell combat when the normal class would get Greater spell combat. In addition, Greater spell combat would never be obtained?

Or in this case, would Both spell combat (melee) and greater spell combat (melee) be obtained?

Or would the greater spell combat not be obtained and 14th level would be a dead level?

[Gisher]

Quintain wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

...

Strangely enough the archetype retains Greater Spell Combat which only applies to an ability the archetype trades out.
...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if an archetype replaces one of multiple dependent abilities, does that not just have the upper level ones substitute for the lower level ones?

Example: Spell Combat and Greater Spell Combat.

In the case of this archetype, the character would get Spell combat when the normal class would get Greater spell combat. In addition, Greater spell combat would never be obtained?

Or in this case, would Both spell combat (melee) and greater spell combat (melee) be obtained?

Or would the greater spell combat not be obtained and 14th level would be a dead level?

In this case Spell Combat was altered rather than replaced. So Greater Spell Combat is still Greater Spell Combat. It is gained at the normal level and its rules are unchanged.

[Quintain]

Gisher wrote:

In this case Spell Combat was altered rather than replaced. So Greater Spell Combat is still Greater Spell Combat. It is gained at the normal level and its rules are unchanged.

Right, however, an Eldritch Archer can't use a melee weapon for spell combat, he has to use a ranged weapon. Greater Spell Combat refers to spell combat -- "whenever he uses spell combat ability" -- which for him is ranged weapons only --

It is flat contradictory.

[Gisher]

I'm not disputing the fact that Greater Spell Combat is a vestigial ability for this archetype. I was addressing your question as to whether it gets replaced by Spell Combat under the archetype rules. Those rules only apply if the lower level ability is replaced. The Eldritch Archer archetype modifies Spell Combat, so Greater Spell Combat remains unchanged (and useless).

[Quintain]

Gisher wrote:

I'm not disputing the fact that Greater Spell Combat is a vestigial ability for this archetype. I was addressing your question as to whether it gets replaced by Spell Combat under the archetype rules. Those rules only apply if the lower level ability is replaced. The Eldritch Archer archetype modifies Spell Combat, so Greater Spell Combat remains unchanged (and useless).

Ah, understood.

[Falxu]

Gisher wrote:

For those interested in mixing archetypes...

Eldritch Archer/Staff Magus

Mind. Blown.

Someone check my math...

1 (1st level spell) x 1 (caster level 1) x 2000 x 4 (duration measured in rounds) = 8,000 gp

Continuous Bowstaff?

Would this be multiplied by 50% for being added to a bow?

[Skylancer4]

Falxu wrote:

Gisher wrote:

For those interested in mixing archetypes...

Eldritch Archer/Staff Magus

Mind. Blown.

Someone check my math...

1 (1st level spell) x 1 (caster level 1) x 2000 x 4 (duration measured in rounds) = 8,000 gp

Continuous Bowstaff?

Would this be multiplied by 50% for being added to a bow?

Significantly more, you are forgetting about the Enhancement bonuses being able to be used in melee as well as special abilities if pertinent to melee attacks.

It would have to be priced as a double weapon basically.

[Kurald Galain]

Gisher wrote:

For those interested in mixing archetypes, I believe that this is the complete list of possible ways to combine Eldritch Archer with other Magus archetypes. (Some other combos are possible if you can find a way to be both a Tiefling and a Suli at the same time.)

Sure, but mixing archer with kensai / kapenia / staff magus doesn't make a lot of sense given the weapons involved; myrmidarch strikes me as redunant; and EK / FF are pretty bad archetypes. So that leaves

Eldritch Archer/Beastblade
Eldritch Archer/Hexcrafter
Eldritch Archer/Spire Defender

It may be more interesting to look into some dips to get the most out of archery, e.g. Ranger or Paladin.

[UnArcaneElection]

Kurald Galain wrote:

Gisher wrote:

For those interested in mixing archetypes, I believe that this is the complete list of possible ways to combine Eldritch Archer with other Magus archetypes. (Some other combos are possible if you can find a way to be both a Tiefling and a Suli at the same time.)

Sure, but mixing archer with kensai / kapenia / staff magus doesn't make a lot of sense given the weapons involved; myrmidarch strikes me as redunant; and EK / FF are pretty bad archetypes. So that leaves

Eldritch Archer/Beastblade
Eldritch Archer/Hexcrafter
Eldritch Archer/Spire Defender

It may be more interesting to look into some dips to get the most out of archery, e.g. Ranger or Paladin.

Fiend Flayer doesn't actually make you give up any Magus class feature, so if you're a Tiefling Magus, why not? A normaly Tiefling Magus wouldn't want to use Infernal Mortification except in an all-in nova against a boss, but if you're also an Eldritch Archer, Infernal Mortification becomes somewhat less dangerous.

Elemental Knight does get hurt by losing Spell Recall, but strangely this tradeoff doesn't get rid of Improved Spell Recall, so it's only temporarily bad.

If you want to be both an Elemental Knight and a Fiend Flayer (on top of Eldritch Archer), be Human. Then take Racial Heritage (Suli) and Racial Heritage (Tiefling) at 1st level. This qualifies you for archetypes specific to both races, although if I understand correctly, that doesn't actually work until 2nd level (you can't get the feats until you have the level and at 1st level you can't get the level until you have the feats), so you'll have to dip 1 level in something other than Magus (and I'm not even sure you can retrain it to Magus later). Unfortunately, spending 2 feats at 1st level means you can't get Dual Talent, which also consumes the Human Bonus Feat -- you would want this to enable pumping your Constitution more than would be normal for an archery character).

The Ranged Spellstrike of Eldritch Archer and Myrmidarch strangely DON'T come about by modifying the same thing, yet are redundant, but on the other hand, Weapon Training is nice for compensating for 3/4 BAB, and Armor Training is nice for relieving the speed penalty and maximum Dexterity Bonus of medium and heavy armor; on the other hand, diminished spell casting and the loss of Spell Recall and Improved Spell Recall really hurt, so this probably isn't worthwhile.

[Kurald Galain]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

A normaly Tiefling Magus wouldn't want to use Infernal Mortification except in an all-in nova against a boss, but if you're also an Eldritch Archer, Infernal Mortification becomes somewhat less dangerous.

The problem is that mortification is a standard action. That makes it pretty useless in combat.

Quote:

Elemental Knight does get hurt by losing Spell Recall, but strangely this tradeoff doesn't get rid of Improved Spell Recall, so it's only temporarily bad.

The problem with EK is not that it gets spell recall seven levels later, but that it simply doesn't do much, and locks you out of other archetypes. Although I must say the EK's deflection ability is quite good.

Quote:

If you want to be both an Elemental Knight and a Fiend Flayer (on top of Eldritch Archer), be Human. Then take Racial Heritage (Suli) and Racial Heritage (Tiefling) at 1st level.

Sorry, but you can't take the same feat twice.

[LoneKnave]

Elemental knight is quite good for conserving spell slots; you can add your extra elemental damage to spells like Chill Touch, so you get it on every attack you make with a weapon, leading to some very economical damage boost for sustained damage. Then again, I think that wouldn't fly with Eldritch Archer.