ClockworkRevenge's page

Ok, it seems to me theres a way to make the fighter more up to snuff, and keep it flavorfull (No pseudo-magic BS here). And its simple, if a fighter is supposed to be an expert at combat, why not give him the choice of abilities (not unlike rogue abilities in concept) that increase the standard attack options and the bases of the major feat trees, and by that i mean, why not create abilities that enhance his ability to throw down in dramatic and interesting ways? The base feats and special attack options are, of course:

Aid Another
Bullrush
Charge
Disarm
Feint
Grapple
Overrun
Sunder
Trip

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Two-Weapon Fighting

I think that these abilities should come on the levels that the fighter doesnt get a fighter bonus feat, and of course one at level 1. Ideas on abilities that would improve, or add to the ultility of this abilities? I can think of one obvious one off the top of my head:

[Novice/Expert/Master/Legendary "X"] (Triper, Overrun, etc)
The fighter adds a flat bonus to the opposed check of whatever skill he took. (Values??) So, a fighter who took this feat would be especially good at tripping, disarming, etc. Obviously this is a very basic one, and they all shouldnt be like this. We need to come up with abilities that will improve these core mechanics. Do people understand? (And i dont mean just always giving them new bonuses to a specific special attack, im thinking things like rogue talents but focused on the above list. Deffinatly think about giving the fighter access to improved power attack, supreme power attack, and supreme cleave.

its a good tool for determining the pace and flow of the game, especially because im very meticulous. Im not interested in Exp'less table top RPG.

I was under the impression Paizo was trying to tweak 3.5, not change the game entirly.

Ok, personally id be fine if there was no skill condensation, but, sense some people are hell bent on it, im presenting what i think are equitable skill condensations:

-Open lock and disable device become one skill: Disable Device.
-Balance and Tumble become the same skill: Acrobatics
-Use rope gets absorbed into sleight of hand.
-Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy REMAIN THEIR OWN SKILLS, for both combat mechanics as well as the mere fact theyre so different. And each of these three skills gets 'gather information' absorbed into it, as all three have means to get information.
-Move silently and hide become "stealth"
-Spot, listen, and search REMAIN THEIR OWN SKILLS. The perception system is just as if not more complicated than the 3.5 version, having to be split and recalculated for listening bonuses, smelling bonuses, tasting bonuses, and hearing bonuses... i think ill just keep it 3.5
-Concentration becomes a wisdom skill.
-Use magic device... dunno what to do with this one

-Furthermore, knowledges could have other skills absorbed into them:
-Knowledge Arcana gets spell craft
-Dungeoneering, Planes, Nature all get versions of survival

Climb, Swim, and Jump all one skill? Err... no. Why not just make the game have 5 skills?

Strength Skill
Dexterity Skill
Intelligence Skill
Wisdom Skill
Charisma Skill

Oo better yet!...

Social Skill
Physical Skill
Mental Skill

Skill condensation/getting rid of ranks is the exact reason im not playing 4th ed, paizo, jason, others, please think clearly and dont go crazy on all these skills.

Alright, ive seen how 4th ed handles skills, ive seen 3.0, ive seen 3.5, and ive seen Pathfinder. Ive seen and heard to arguments for and against skill condensation, and i believe i have an argument and a solution, i will detail below what i think.

First, skill condensation is BAD. The more i see it the more the skill list begins to look like this to me:

Strength Skill: 4 ranks
Intelligence Skill: 7 ranks
Wisdom Skill: 4 ranks
Etc...

and Why not go further?
Social Skill:
Physical Skill:
Mental Skill:

This is absolutly abhorent to me, to condense skills too much. Now, there are a few areas i think that actually to need to be condense, but not many, below i will show and explain how i think each skill should be handled, as well as how many skill points each class should get:

(All of these would receive (Int + x)x4 a first level, im bucking the system pathfinder deceided to go with, it is an arbitrary change)

Barbarian: 6 + int
Bard: 8 + int
Cleric: 4 + int
Druid: 6 + int
Fighter: 4 + int
Monk: 6 + int
Paladin: 4 + int
Ranger: 8 + int
Rogue: 10 + int
Sorcerer: 4 + int
Wizard: 4 + int
(See the pattern?)

Also, i think it would be cool to allow each PC/class to flattly pick 2-3 skills that become class skills for them.

Appraise (int): unchanged
Balance (dex): Balance and tumble are rolled into one skill, Acrobatics, considering suggesting that jump be added to this, but i LOATHE the idea of so many different things being rolled into one
Consentration (wis): Consentration becomes a wisdom skill, and ALL classes have it as a class skill.
Climb: unchanged
Craft (int): unchanged
Decipher Script (int): unchanged
Diplomacy (cha): Unchanged. Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff can all produce similar outcomes, but they a.) all do it in different ways and b.) all have their own seperate and dependant mechanics, i.e.: feint
Disable Device: Disable Device now includes open lock
Disguise (cha): Unchanged, sorry. Disguise, forgery, move silently, and hide ALL being put into one skill is insane.
Escape Artist (dex): unchanged.
Gather Info (cha): Consider putting this into bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy; each of those skills has the capacity to gather information in their own unique style.
Handle Animal (cha): Put this into knowledge nature. If you know about nature you probably know how to handle animals. OR, put "ride" into handle animal. The latter is probably the better call.
Heal (wis)/(int): Unchanged except for maybe it being either wis or int.
Hide (dex): Hide and movesilently are combined into stealth. Almost never does some one just need to hide, or move silently. Usually people who take these skills want to "sneak" and sneaking require you be hidden and move silently.
Intimidate (Cha/str): Unchanged except that gather information is also within it, and str can be substituted for charisma.
Jump (str/dex): Unchanged, except that dex can replace its core attribute.
Knowledge (int): Unchanged, except that of the aforementioned change to handle animal. Also think about putting spell craft inside knowledge arcana.
Listen (wis): Unchanged, "perception" is convoluted, unpopular, and messier than just having spot listen and search. (they all remain unchanged)
Move silently (dex): Combined into hide, to form stealth
Open Lock (dex): put into disable device.
Ride (dex): Already discussed
Search (int)/(wis): remain unchanged, but give it the option of being a wisdom skill.
Sense Motive (wis): unchanged
Sleight of Hand (dex): put "use rope" into this.
Spell Craft (int) already discussed.
Spot (wis): Already discussed, remains unchanged.
Survival (wis): Make this applicable to a specific knowledge, (planes, nature, dungeoneering), or keep it as is.
Swim (str)/(dex): Unchanged, sorry. Im good at swimming, im horrible at climbing; its not the same skill.
Tumble (dex): Remains unchanged, but also includes balance within itself.
Use magic device (cha?): Dunno what to do with this one
Use rope: nixed off, see sleight of hand.

What do people think of this break down? Please give REASONS for why you do and do not like or agree with something ive postulated.

This seems totally arbitrary and makes all the numbers and DCs less round. Deffinatly i think the (int + X)x4 for first level should be used. Its not really complicated and helps to make the DCs nice and round... ultimatly i just dont think it NEEDS to be messed with, and hence should not be.

I feel that everytime a skill gets condensed things get that much less custom. Not every fighter than can jump, can tumble. Not every climber can swim, etc. I actually dont see any skill that needs to be condensed. And on the issue of some skills being more or less important, this is PURELY subjective to the campaign. Boom, spy/espionage campeign: forgery and disguise just got a lot more important. Putting an implicit importance on one skill over another begins a proccess that pidgeon holes the storyworld and makes characters less custom.

Please dont lynch me. I just dont think that spot and listen should be the same skill. I.e.: im almost blind, but i have fine hearing. Im a great swimmer, but i cant climb (ive tried). I beeeeg the designers to stay with the current 3.5 skill break down.

Alternative solutions could give a flat skill bonus for certain classes to certain abilities.

Alright, im new to these boards but not boards in general; Ive just migrated here from the WoTC dungeons and dragons boards. Im here because i hate 4.0 with a fiery pashion, and sense Paizo looks like the only corp thats doing anything to save my favorite game, i deceided id throw in some constructive commentary, despite whether or not its appriciated, valid, etc, whatever. So, im just gonna comment on the alpha 2 release, maybe things have already been adressed, just let me know, i just wanted to try and put some input on the boards sense i herd Paizo was very responsive to its fan base.

Races:
They all looked great, i really liked the +2, +2, -2, and i liked all the tweaks to their abilities. Perhaps giving all races a slightly nerfed version of the Racial Weapon Familiarity feat is a little much, but its still fun. Now i would actually consider playing a half-elf, orc, or gnome (The artwork was also great, love it.)

Classes:
Barbarian looks really good; I much like way rage is handled down, despite it being a little but more complicated, and the rage powers make it much more exiciting in my opinion. Its always fun to have something special to do, especially in the heat of battle. It lets a barbarian player put a little more thought and flare into his combat outside of "i power atack", "i rage".

Fighter: Still lacking. The armor bonuses are neat, but the increase to damage to specific weapon schools is meh. Sense the fighter revolves around essentially being the best at simple fighting/skill at combat, why doesnt the class revolve around the aquisition and increased potency of the combat actions (Trip, feint, disarm, charge, grapple, overrun, bullrush, aid another, etc). I think giving the fighter the chance to go down a special path revolving around power attack, combat expertise, and combat reflexes allowing him access to improved special actions and more powerful options would make the most sense of a fighter. Does anyone get what i mean?

Paladin: In all honesty i havnt looked over paladin too terribly much, but it looks good (im really excited about pathfinder),However, i think that smite should be per encounter, rather than per day.

Sorcerer/Wizard/Druid/Cleric: I think that all of these classes should gain new levels of magic at the same rate. Also, why doesnt the druid get the domain/bloodline/specialization sort of thing? It doesnt seem to have many other changes, why not give it a "Fane"? Like... Moutain Fane, Forest Fane, Swamp Fane, Desert Fane, etc. Also, the wizard and sorcerer powers granted at 2nd level from bloodline should be x times per encounter, and in terms of the sorcerer, should be equivilent to the available spell level.

These are the preliminary tweeks id make as far as class goes... in terms of skills? I would keep skills the way they are in 3.5 D/D, they really dont needed to be messed around with, and the argument that some skills are way less valuable than others hinges on the fallicious thought that every campaign is the same; all skills are situational. The increased feat table is golden.