Caster-Martial Discussion DM's page

I guess that this is over.

Nobody?

Does anyone want to be a DM for a fight? I really want to test myself.

I understand you, and I also apologize. However I couldn't let you build a character knowing that he was about to be instantly killed (or else people would have screamed "Schrodinger's Wizard"). At first I expected to have a 2v2 fight, where probably one of the party may have lost a member on the first round, but not the entire fight. But bad stuff happened. Consider that if you were first in initiative, on a failed saving throw Aaron was likely to be instakilled too.
Both of you had margin to be better.
A potion of heroism instead of a heightened awareness would have provided a smaller bonus to initiative, while increasing a lot of other throws. (Aaron)
Invisibility was the only defensive spell you had active. If you had mirror image, invisibility and nondetection, Aaron shots would have been hardly effective. (Kaboom)

Definitely shortest fight ever.

The kasatha instantly shoots five times, killing Kaboom in an explosion of blood.
I really miss the words to describe this beyond what I wrote above.
It should be said that deadly aim doesn't work with touch attacks (lowering the damage by 32), but still. Ouch.
Kaboom, look at the spoiler and the build of Aaron.

The arena is once again cleared from the blood.
The two combatants are teleported into the arena, from a starting distance of 60 feet from each other.
Each one tries to determine what the other one looks like.

Whatever. You can start.

We have 2 characters ready. Shall we wait for another two?

I think that Avoron can't fight alone.

Are you ready?

Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:

However, from what I read in these battles and builds, it's optimization that won fights, not classes.

Not true. My wizard was decidedly (and deliberately) un-optimized. Didn't take a specialty school, never found any magic items as loot or available for purchase, wasn't even made exclusively for combat. The fighter he beat was far more optimized (and even specialized against the known opponent, while my wizard was not).

The only thing true to both fights was that the character with access to the highest-level spellcasting won. There was a weird cross-class bleeding of that access to magic, but it's still more true that it's a contest of magic than that it's a contest of optimization.

More or less. Your tactic was far more optimal than the other.

Fine. After this fight we'll test higher levels, where casters are supposed to be "unstoppable"; we'll either bust that myth or confirm it.
However, from what I read in these battles and builds, it's optimization that won fights, not classes. Still we have small amount of data.

I guess it's time to make another fight.

Updated rules
Asterisks marks new or modified rules.

1) Teams are composed by an equal amount of characters.
2) The arena is a cylinder with a radius of 200 foot. It prolongs 200 feet over the sky and 200 feet in the ground. Limits are made of adamantine walls, except for the higher circle, which is just air. There's natural, bright light. You are in the material plane.
3) If you somehow get outside the boundaries, you are considered eliminated until you return into the arena.
4) If the sum of the remaining teammates can't free a character from a crippling condition (such as flesh to stone or death), that character is removed from the arena. Its belonging vanishes and he's considered eliminated.
5)* You have no foreknowledge of any of your opponents. You are informed about the beginning of the fight 3 rounds before the fight starts. Your character doesn't know about this arena until he's informed. You are otherwise ready for adventuring (weapons wielded, spells prepared, class features prepared etc.). 6) You can use these 3 rounds to prepare yourself. You can't abuse this limit to gain an additional amount of preparation time.
6) Standard WBL. In PRD and Master, 1 crafting feat increase it by 25%, 2 by 50%, and 3 or more have no other effect.
7)* Custom items are allowed (in pfs this is limited to its limits). You have to follow the rules of the kind of fight. You may not duplicate a magic item outside of your kind of fight.
8) You can spawn in the arena from 30 feet to 50 feet from the center. You spawn at least 60 feet from every other opponent.
9) There is a surprise round only if none of your opponents can act in the surprise round. In 1 against 1 there's never a surprise round.
10) A team wins if all of its opponents are eliminated for at least one round.
11)* There's not such thing as cheese or broken combo. As long it's not a loophole or a very unintended effect (such as being dead but still able to fight because it doesn't say you can't, throwing shields as a free action while drawing them as a free action or a nature oracle which exploits his capstone ability to arbitrary raise his charisma and then abuse that unlimited score) feel free to push every character to the maximum possible. You are still limited by rules.
12) Teammates are by default able to recognize other teammates.
13)* You can bring a companion with you for free if it's a class feature. You may only bring one companion, regardless your build. If you gain a companion through a feat, then it counts as an additional teammate. A single, summoned creature counts as a free companion.
14)* You may choose to make not count a companion you have. It may remain with you, but he can't act, affect the battlefield and is considered eliminated. Your companion spawns adjacent, but not in front of you, and behind you if it's not specified.
15)* Builds must respect this criteria: 20 PB, any 0hd race from the bestiaries but Drow Noble. They must still respect the kind of play they belong. Hit points are the max at first level, then they are the upper value of the half of your HD.
16)* When your character is ready, you'll pm him to me to ensure that it's a legal build. I'll only check that, then I'll answer you if it works or it doesn't. The first time I told Jiggy that the first version of the character had no pants; it won't happen again. While it didn't really changed nothing, as he was invisible all the time, it's your responsibility to build a character that makes sense. If you forget to buy food, you'll be starving in the arena.
17)* During the fight, you can't read a spoiler which doesn't have your name as its title. You have to state your actions in a spoiler named with my name, but you have to declare outside your spoilers what you explicitly, clearly do.
18)* If an effect implies a roll, but the result never changes (as targeting an undead with a charm person or trying to attack an illusion), I'll still pretend that the result was actually uncertain.

List of suggestions:
Cover your defense. A low initiative may, and probably will, ruin your character almost instantly.
Get creative. This is an arena, your enemy will develop a tactic that covers a great amount of situations. Your first move it's to be outside that set of situations. Your second move it's to put your enemy into your set of situations of working tactics. Avoron used Bewildering Koan, which is very difficult to stop.
Don't allow your enemy to play his game. He'll win in his game.

5) Clearer on the limits of the 3 preparation rounds.
7) It's explicit that pfs have restrictions.
11) Clearer on what is defined legal.
13 and 14) Details on companions.
15) After pondering a bit, I decided that the point buy had to be increased, as it punishes MAD class choices but doesn't really penalizes SAD ones.
16) Clearer on the nature of the response and validating routine.
17) Details on the running of the fight.
18) It's explicit on the nature of the unnecessary rolls.

No, it's only a matter of how we propose it. People should also be ready to defend their point of view with stuff done, not with just words. I usually ignore comments of people that prove nothing they say.

Either.

I'd rather prefer having new players together with the previous ones. Just to be sure we'll have different styles and different (initial) points of views.

Bump.

MendedWall12 wrote:

Goddity wrote:

Oh hey, you know what would've made a good tactic? Readying an action on your third prep turn.

Like what? Ready an action to...

It was specifically not allowed by the OP. Although casting Contingent Action might be interesting, if allowed.

It's allowed, but it's 1 minute casting time. It got errataed into oblivion. Limited wishing it works.

Sincerely I was expecting bewildering koan at a certain point, but of course not an astral deva. The magic item isn't even supposed to summon it (caster level 13 suggests SM VII, which is the maximum a standard paladin can aim to). But of course it's legal.

The battle is finished. The winner is Megan!
I'm really not sure about how Megan managed to survive before level 6. But whatever.

Castey Hexey dies.

I think that "Everyone but Goddity" and "Goddity only" are on the right road to become memes.

Castey Hexey, at the top his lungs and with a freakishly high pitched voice:"It is I! The great Castey Blastey Zappy Hexey! And today, you get to see my famous magic up close and personal."
Megan acts first.

After a week of silence, the blood of Terylinlara is cleaned by a mysterious force from the arena.
Just after a few seconds, the voice says:"There shall be another fight now!".
Three entities appear immediately after. Two on the side of the martials, one on the side of the casters.

We can start the fight. Just 10 minutes.

Korak The Boisterous, you didn't even read the FAQ.
Be constructive or ignore this thread. It's not that difficult.

We have a lot of people unsuccessfully arguing about Caster/Martial disparity on the "Seriously now, how do you fix martial / caster disparity and still have the same game?" thread. Perhaps we can find someone there.

I guess he didn't answered.

We may bring a companion means they gained one through a feat, not a class feature, so that it counts as an additional player? I'm just checking I understand the rules. What are our options if I don't want to change my build for a leadership type feat?

Yes.

My understanding is that each character can have one companion, and everything is considered equally - animal companions, eidolons, creatures summoned during the preparation time, whatever. Leadership and similar features are definitely not PFS-legal.

Oh, and a quick question: Do non-combatant familiars count against this limit, if they're kept in a familiar satchel and used solely for the bonuses they provide?

No. They will be with you, but they cannot act, cannot be targeted by effects, and are eliminated when the master is eliminated.

All we need to start is Gobo Horde with his Alex Armstrong (caster).
Also, the caster team may bring a companion.

Happy Christmas to everybody!

Fury of the Tempest wrote:

Hmmm. No Inquisitor, no Magus, No Hunter or Investigator...

Typical that all my favorite classes aren't allowed huh?

I understand completely and agree.

I know. But being 6th level casters and 3/4 BAB it's something that confuses me when I have to put them either in casters or martials. They sometimes have enough martial prowess to compete with martials, they sometimes have spells good enough to compete with casters, and sometimes they have both.

Feel free to pm me the builds. Also, companions starts on their master's square where applicable, otherwise they start adjacent but not in front of their master.