Boggle's page

Hi all very new to pathfinder played a mountain of 3 and 3.5 however has combat massively changed in your view..

In regard to feats tactics ect what are your thoughts....

my thanks for your thoughts regards

Hi all

i will also concede a point at this stage the bard is better and as i have already said i look forward to others feedback about there bard characters over the next few weeks and months.

As a question would bard have been better made into a prestige class that players could strive towards.

Once again thank you for all your thoughts my respect and admiration

Boggle

Sanakht Inaros wrote:

And again, Boggle, you have yet to show me how a 1st level cleric, wizard, or rogue can boost a save up to +13. The onus is now on YOU to prove to ME how a bard is ineffectual.

Boggle wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Give it up LK, it's not worth arguing over.

I could not agree more lol

Don't bother it's clear he's not actually justifying anything he says

Prove ineffectual

the only way i can do this add up all the bard deaths over the years

surprising few, effective i hear you say no people learnt they just dont cut it.

I can actually make saves a guarantee with a rogue well almost and the bonuses are far greater than +13

but thats another story.

I'm still hoping for a huge hardback adventure in the Rappan Athuk or Dungeon-A-Day vein.

I have one that i personally wrote still in the process of finishing touches it was originally written many years ago but it was a big success with the many groups that have attempted it.

Would be happy to email you it when finished

It called the tomb of curses?

Regards

If the Pathfinder RPG lasts long enough and is popular enough (which I do hope it is), eventually we'll be doing a 2nd edition of it. What and how that happens is unknown... but speaking personally, I would like it NOT to happen for a long time. 1st edition and 2nd edition both had roughly a decade, so 10 years seems like a good starting point to me...

For now, though, there are no plans to put ourselves through the hell and horror of rebuilding the backbone of our entire RPG product line. We're too tired! :-)

Thank you so much for taking the time out to reply.

That is incredibly reassuring so i guess things will be tried out and implemented through other books.

I am over the moon

This is going to sound strange especially as i am extremely happy at the direction that paizo publishing has gone.

However here is my question

Following on from 3.5 to be honest was an obvious but brave decision and will yield you a lot of support but what happens four or five years down the road.

Will you be looking to take the game in more radical directions but still maintaining its roots?

What do people think or wish.

For me i want paizo to keep going build on the feedback and take those brave next steps.

Give it up LK, it's not worth arguing over.

I could not agree more lol

Well its been a fun and interesting debate thank you one and all for your thoughts comments and feedback.

I will add this it will be interesting to see peoples thoughts on this class after a few weeks and months to see if at has significantly improved.

Once again my thanks

Boggle wrote:

Jabor wrote:

When you come up with a rogue build that can buff like a bard, let me know.

well actually a rogue who specializes in umd (use magic device) is amazingly versatile and can massively supplement herself or the party.

Again i still believe more effectively

Regards

That's a total lie, yes the rogue can cast a spell each round and be a decent buffer. But he can't metamagic spells so that at high level he can cast two spells and start bardic music all in 1 round. How the heck is your rogue specializing in UMD matching that if you're goal is to play a dedicated buffer, heck even the wizard can't match that. And that's assuming you're playing a game where the rogue can just go out and buy scrolls of 5th level spells. Or you have a wizard in your party, but wait if the wizard is scribing all these scrolls and wands for your rogue, why do you need the rogue in the first place as the buffer, why not have the wizard buffing. And the wizard can cast stronger buff spells but can't get as many buffs running as quickly as the bard, because even if the wizard quickens a buff spell and casts a buff spell, the bard has him beat with a bardic music. and the bard was able to cast all those buffs without needing to buff himself to be decent if he needs to be a meleer because the fighter went down, or he needs to be a healer because the cleric went down. You tell me how any class can get the buffs going faster than a bard, or how that UMD rogue can do it "MORE EFFECTIVELY" I would have been fine if you had said almost as effectively, but you said the rogue did it MORE effectively, well you want to make a statement like that, lets see you prove it.

A bard can do it through scrolls or wands fairly easily and that is not that difficult to do.

Three thoughts:

1) If bards are ineffective in your world/campaign/game, I would suggest that the fault lies with either the gaming style or your player's playing skills. The bard is not a class to take if you don't want to exercise your brain. IMO, it requires a good deal of thought and some planning to make them work effectively. On the other hand, a barbarian is point and smash. Yes this is generalized, and yes you can do many clever things with true melees for example, but the game mechanic/base concept is easier. This does not mean the bard is useless. If you do take the time to learn how to effectively play a bard with your particular group, the payoff is very high. The hard part is looking at your party style of play and character makeup and figuring out how to maximize their effectiveness. None of the other classes really require a player to do this, but this is also, I would submit, what makes a bard really round out a party well.

In regards to the gaming style part of my leading comment, how effective a bard is allowed to be depends on the DM's style and the type of campaign you have going. If your game is heavy on combat, relentless BBEGs, and min/maxing, the bard is not going to play as well, even with an excellent player. A good illustration of why is the example of playing an illusionist vs playing an evoker. Illusionists are only as good as the DM and his world allows illusions to be. If everything gets an automatic save vs illusion, they are going to be crappy, because the strength of the illusionist is the power of belief and conveying things that aren't there. If your style reduces or negates that aspect of the game, they are not a class worth playing, especially when an evoker is completely black and white, primary damage output. Why would you pick an illusionist with options like that? By comparison, if there are never any situations that can't be solved with a fireball, greataxe, cure spell, or remove trap, then bards are not a class worth playing either.

2) Recently,...

Crazy and mad comments

You want me to hold the hand of the bard if you cant make one work in my world then well there is something wrong with them.
However the players that pick them tend to be new and have issues getting the best out of them.
I am always fair however they simply dont work if they did my guys would be all over it.

Currently running a game with the new Pathfinder rules. Still low level at 3rd level average character level.

So far... works fine at 3 sessions in.

Small suprise with how the web spell was reworded but that is just because it was "different". It'll be interesting to see how things shake up as time progresses.

Could you explain more please

Just be careful what you allow, it is one of the most broken books ever published. That said it does have some very neat ideas in it. One consequence of adding it is that the fighter will never get played - good, bad, I don't know you decide.

I totally agree with the above

I have had several players wanting to play one in a previous campaign however there are issues be careful.

I honestly think is a massive amount of versatility in the new book to keep players happy for years

Regards

Hi everyone was wondering if anyone could share there initial thoughts around how the game played out.

Were there any surprises ect

What worked well not so that sort of thing.

As i have said in another thread i will be using the system however only after the current campaign concludes.

So please share your feedback

Regards Boggle

Boggle, I'm going to concede one point. For your group, the bard may simply not be a character type that fits in. The Bard as a viable character does rely on a fair number of situational factors including group synergy and the campaign type.

If the campaign type is strictly monster grinding, hack and slash, and is strictly restricted to 4 members, then the Bard may not be a viable member of YOUR particular sitatuion. You're not the only one, a certain game master that I played with in Ramapo NJ, would probably be killing Bards like tissue paper, but then again he kills (and is proud of it) all PC classes like tissue paper to the point that his players just run of a xerox of thier last character when it inevitably dies. (why they kept playing... well it was an odd bunch even by gamer standards)

Keep in mind however not everyone plays in a game that's like yours. Many gaming groups have more than 4 players so there will be flexibility when it comes to adding a 5th or 6th member. Many groups also feature social interaction as a major component of campaign play an area where they particurlarly shine, particurlarly if the Bard is the "face" of the group. In groups of this type, the Bard is a good fill in character when one of the main 4 is incapacitated or killed.

In return for this concession, I'd like you to if you wish to continue knocking the Bard or any other character class arguments that are a bit more universal other than "this is what my 4 person group has been doing for a quarter century". Or maybe simply acknowledge that we agree to disagree and end this discussion on a high note.

Its not a four person group it actually eight players

im knocking the bard but they dont mach up thats a fact

I dm

i really dont care what players play

Its not hack and slash my god my games are multi layered and i provide a lot of depth for role play opportunities.

I have been a dm in tournaments i have won many myself as a player.

My views are based on years of play

If they work for you great

But to me there just flavor thats fine but it will not make you survive im afraid.

You might not like my views i respect yours

But so far no one can give me any real reason that opens my eyes to say you know what guys and girls here is a new angle on them give them a go.

So i guess i think they should have been a prestige class.

Anyway i thank you all for your thoughts please keep them coming.

When you come up with a rogue build that can buff like a bard, let me know.

well actually a rogue who specializes in umd (use magic device) is amazingly versatile and can massively supplement herself or the party.

Again i still believe more effectively

Regards

Boggle wrote:

well thank you for all your views

of coarse i am unconvinced unfortunately no one in my group plays one

they never see the benefit and i guess i fully understand there reasoning

but thanks one and all

Imagine that! Didn't someone say something about this?

he also forgot to read my posts i dm i dont care what the players play they never play bards?

Well thats not quite true the odd new beginner will however after a short time the bard unfortunately has died and the player sees the issues.

Maybe its group bias however these are very cleaver guys who push the envelope of what can be done if there was something in them to warrant a build they would use them however as i have already said they dont.

They might now but i doubt it?

Boggle wrote:

Hi i was just wondering if someone could answer the following

Would wind stance stack with things like obscuring mist?

No. Concealment doesn't stack.

yes i see that now page 196

ok so that means the best effect only works

what are your thoughts on wind stance this being the case

Hi i was just wondering if someone could answer the following

Would wind stance stack with things like obscuring mist?

I love the broom of animated attacks

once had one lying close by a pit the pit was filled with dust(sneezing and chocking)

anyway i guess you can see were this is going

dm fun fun fun

Boggle wrote:

I would love to volunteer my services and i am confident others will chip in as well.

So no matter how crazy a question why not give me a try.

My question is very general... Advice for a starting DM? The big problem is, though, that I have very limited player experience. So, how do you suggest learning to love the game from the perspective of a DM without really having the player background? And, how do you avoid feeling left out from the building of personal characters?

Thanks for your thoughts.

So far thanks for all dms views

Here is mine

Basically keep things small

Obvious i know

The reasons are you will be aware of what the players will likely do so you can be as well prepared as possible.

It will help know what rules to brush up on.

Try to keep the game flowing however remember you are learning so if necessary take a moment out if its critical to check a decision.

Have a list of npcs names to hand in case you need to make something up on the fly maybe a list of traits for them.

Anything like that is always useful.

Learning to love the game well for me i describe it like marmite you either love it or hate it you will know quite quickly if its for you.

Dont take every thing to heart if there is someone you regard as a good dm copy them.

In-brace the players as they build there characters you should have a lot of fun creating the npc they will meet.

Cleaver feat choices or interesting situations are fun when building the npcs.

However have a simple story and i always like to think about a twist.

Hear is an example

It's not a pathfinder item, but the Necklace of Vampires was always an interesting find, especially for people who didn't mind becoming a vampire. (The DM allowed them to keep their alignment.)

There are some other cursed items that can be used carefully, provided the owner knows they are cursed. Far less expensive than some of the regular items.

That sounds like an interesting item can you tell me more about it.

Ok

Here is an example in my humble view of an item that is massively useful as a cursed item

Dust of sneezing and choking (pg540 pf)

If you make the save dc15 fortitude you are still stunned 5d4 rounds

stunned means drops anything held, ac drops by two points, and losses it dexterity bonus so can be sneaked attacked and the big one is they cant take actions. Wow

A fantastic one off item if used skillfully

So can you think of any others or do you not agree?

I would love to volunteer my services and i am confiedent others will chip in as well.
So no matter how crazy a question why not give me a try.

I would like to offer my humble ability to help people better design there characters. Or if they have a general question around a build i would love to give mine and i dare say others will cheap in there view points.

All questions welcome.

From what I know now from the blurbs on the blog:

Alchemist - D
Cavalier - C
Oracle - A
Summoner - D
Unnamed classes - ?

I won't give any class a failing grade until I see the final product but where the Alchemist and Summoner may have a neat mechanical niche, they don't exactly strike me as base classes.

In fact, the Alchemist seems like a very weak Artificer that will get a lot of power by simply jimmying a lot power into the class unrealistically. Where are all of these self-using self-buffing potions effects coming from - a cleric list, a wizard list or all new effects? If they can be used by others it seems like it will be adding a whole new array of effects that really have never really existed in D&D. One day lifetime and timed to disenchant themselves potions? If the class is basically a wizard with craft potion feat, it does not work on its own. I think some form of "Artificer" would be better. Give them the ability to specialize in potion making or wand making or weapon and armor making or construct making, much more versatile conceptually.

The summoner is kind of a neat mechanical niche but couldn't this class be a PrC, it just really feels like one to me. Wizard with a powerful pet, why can't this simply be a wizard who specializes in this bent of magic (PrC)?

I dont disagree with you

however the class that most will not work is alchemist it screams npc to me?

Maybe they will have something however up to this point i remain unconvinced.

Regards

The Cavalier seems to be stealing some of the niche of the bard. The bard should/could have filled these mechanical shoes very easily and very well. The Cavalier could focus more on being a "knight" but then it would be stealing from the fighter. Given the choice I suppose it is better to steal from the bard. But even still, this also could have been a PrC very easily that either a bard or a fighter could get into. Either way I am sure it will be an interesting enough class, though it will steal thunder from the bard or fighter or both.

The Oracle is an excellent option and I really like this one conceptually as well as the suggested mechanics. I think this could simply replace the cleric all together if done right. If done...

KaeYoss wrote:

Mistah J wrote:

Damn!

That guy owed me money!

And even when he quit the game, he was ahead! His legend shall live on!

I know my bard will aspire to the heights of his greatness.

another bard dies i rest my case?

Thanks for the analysis, very thorough. Definitely helps me understand why people use it so much.

In my defense though, my games aren't constant danger, each encounter is of roughly the same difficulty, but there is alot of role-play of various kinds in it, with plenty of drama and suspense of their own type to break it up.

(And yeah, I'm not a nice enough DM to just hand my PC's an easy win unless it's a traitor among them or something most of the time lol. In my games 20 townspeople in a straight up fight would probably kill four level 8 adventurers.)

thats some town

unless there super hyped towns people four eighth level characters would walk all over them.

lol

Anyway for me personally the term bbeg is not something i think about in design i look at pacing and how much time i have i realize after many years of dming you cant always end on a high however fininising at a good point is more important.

regards

Well, we are starting our new campaign with the final rules on Sunday, so this session the players started mulling over options.

There was a great hue and cry over clerics losing heavy armor, and they think it's far worse than just (effectively) losing 2 points of AC. I told them wait and see.

The players seem pretty excited over the diviner specialty wizard of all things.

Someone mentioned they might play a bard, and they received a lot of leftover 3.5 incredulity. He might still go ahead with it, though.

i am amazed losing heavy armour was such a big deal ?

with all the new feats its easy to overcome i believe

This question is for for those who cracked open the four pound tome that is the Pathfinder Core book and started (re)started their Pathfinder campaign. What did your players think of their PCs? Have the similarities/differences found in the Gamemastery section affected your running the game? I won't be running my first game with the new ruleset until a local convention, and a Pathfinder scenario at that.

i like the question

i think they will like it however im mid way into a campaign and am reluctant to try any changes out yet.

However i no its back ward compatible its just i want some time to dissect the rules and hear others feedback.

regards

Boggle wrote:

Ok you have the book

i hope or the pdf

What changes do you think will be for you the most useful and why?

I really want to understand your thoughts and could you say if you dm/or play or both.

GM: I heart the Encounter building system.

thats a good spot i agree and the wealth tables have been lightly changed however i like it?

Why a bard class? Because you can do anything...

Imo, the bard is the king and leader of every out of combat situation.

During roleplaying nobody can match him!

well thank you for all your views

of coarse i am unconvinced unfortunately no one in my group plays one

they never see the benefit and i guess i fully understand there reasoning

but thanks one and all

Ok you have the book

i hope or the pdf

What changes do you think will be for you the most useful and why?

I really want to understand your thoughts and could you say if you dm/or play or both.

i am referring to paizos roleplaying book

I'm sorry I couldn't be more help Boggle.

And I'm glad you like it kyrt, if you come up with anything based on it be sure to post it to the forums so I can check it out. I think I liked Magic Item Compendium for the 'item levels' best, because then I had an estimate of when it would be okay to give them out.

you have and cheers

Ok you have the book

i hope or the pdf

What changes do you think will be for you the most useful and why?

I really want to understand your thoughts and could you say if you dm/or play or both.

I've been playing about three/four years now. I tried DMing a couple times, and then deployed to Afghanistan. Not having any other options, I ran Shackled City for all 15 months of that deployment. So I have a little experience, but not the decades you do.

well i admire you

thats some assignment

by the way i do appreciate your thoughts

as i always say everyone has there own playing style both players and dms

so thanks for your views and happy gaming

I'm not being unfair, I'm telling you I can't help you. If you don't want them to have a luck blade until level 12, then don't give them a luck blade until level 12. That's my stance on it.

thanks for your view

do you dm or play

I think you're missing my point. I don't CARE about GP costs. It seriously isn't worth my time. If the player wants it, he is going to get it, no matter the cost. You setting the price higher is basically 'I don't want to give you the item until you've paid enough.' I prefer to cut that out and say 'Yes you can' or 'No you can't' rather than play accountant.

sorry you are being un - fair im not playing accountant as you say i am trying to re price an item with i was hoping your help.

i strongly know that any of my players would buy this or request it so i wanted a fairer price guide to scale it.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

And Boggle, you never answered my question, has anybody ever used the luck blade in one of your games?

Well?

yes

it has been a source of contention for a while

thats why i raise the question

i have let them in

but i think it should be higher priced so that its the sort of thing thats found or desired at a higher level maybe around level twelve so i strongly believe its cost needs to be factored accordingly

Can't complain with that one TriOmega, normally I have more fun throwing gold at them and letting them role-play their shopping and get what they like, but a wish list is a good idea too.

a wish list

i wish for more wish's

or more luck blades

lol

Sorry Boggle, can't get behind you on this one either. Re-rolling a roll is a common power, one you don't even have to spend gold on. The Imp Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, the Luck domain power, and that is core now. So I don't see the luck blade as broken at all.

Really, I'm toying with the idea of doing away with GP costs altogether. Let the players give me their wishlist, and they'll come across those items in their adventures. I'm not playing the game to do taxes on each character.

Its price is broken not the ability are you all missing the point?

Boggle wrote:

Jadeite wrote:

How is getting a second chance on a saving throw once per day broken? The character doesn't even get to know if his save had been successful or not, so he might waste the ability on a save that had succeeded anyway or may even fail his save because of it.

It's certainly a nice ability, but nowhere near broken.

This is how cleaver players use it

firstly they will not use it willy nilly they will wait judging the right moment to call it

so lets say your player a fighter you roll a one on your reflex save you know if you dont re-roll

your going to lose an item let alone the damage and most likely your weapon/amour or shield

you would use it as long as you dont get a one again your safe even if you fail.

This is one of millions of examples of broken because as someone said its costing you 10000 thousand for the re roll thats a small price when your main weapon at high level costs five times that.

i hope you agree there is an issue here

Mine is false based on hundreds of hours of play as a dm

you are seriously mistaken

its based on players own admissions that wise i raise the question

I like worlds were it could be possible to get items under the right circumstances

so the question is valid
In which case everything's broken as, shock, clever players will use their abilities to maximum advantage. The ability allows for the possible, but not certain, negation of a single action once/day. Really, what is the fuss about? In Curse of the Crimson Throne, thanks to the Harrow points, people can do that multiple times for free. It's just not broken. There is no issue.

And I've had players reroll on an 8 because they figured they'd failed the save and the consequences were bad so they didn't want to take the chance. So your contention of how this intelligent player will act is false.

Maybe I could get a reply as well Boggle? Seriously it's not a broken ability to get a single luck reroll for 12,000 gold (Kae priced it at 15,000 I believe). Crack open complete scoundrel and you'll find well over a dozen feats, and every one of them helps you build a pool of them.

Heck a halfling Paladin 2, Fighter 8, Fortune's friend X would pretty much never fail a save. (Granted this consumes alot of feats, but thats the point of the fighter levels, to kick a few back in the goal of maintaining strong combat capacity.)

sorry it is

we will have to agree to disagree

and as i have said dont use broken splat books

the reason is play testing

not enough has been done

The math's already been done and displayed for you to read, it may be a little underpriced mathematically, but tell me something Boggle. In however many games you've had, exactly how many people have even purchased one luck blade?

(Also, I suggest you pop open your Magic Item Compendium and turn to page 115 and read the Mantle of Second chances. It grants the same once per day reroll with the same caveats, for a flat 12,000 gold, 3,000 cheaper than Kae's estimates and your not stuck buying +2 enhancement bonus on a weapon you don't want.)

dont use splat books mostly broken and you have just proved that

How is getting a second chance on a saving throw once per day broken? The character doesn't even get to know if his save had been successful or not, so he might waste the ability on a save that had succeeded anyway or may even fail his save because of it.

It's certainly a nice ability, but nowhere near broken.

This is how cleaver players use it

firstly they will not use it willy nilly they will wait judging the right moment to call it

so lets say your player a fighter you roll a one on your reflex save you know if you dont re-roll

your going to lose an item let alone the damage and most likely your weapon/amour or shield

you would use it as long as you dont get a one again your safe even if you fail.

This is one of millions of examples of broken because as someone said its costing you 10000 thousand for the re roll thats a small price when your main weapon at high level costs five times that.

i hope you agree there is an issue here

Hey All

I am starting this thread for those who do not like Pathfinder and want to comment about what they dislike. I am starting a similar thread about stuff they do like. Please keep it civil.

Hi

Firstly i want to say thank you for starting this article

because how can things improve if we dont challenge them

we must give our thoughts

we must try and be balanced in our views

this will help improve the game going forward

because the next steps are when this game evolves past this new incantation which i love by the way into the next steps and these views will help i believe shape it.

Also over the next few months as we play the game some of the wrinkles good and bad will be found.

Regards

Boggle wrote:

One thing that could have been corrected i think is the luck blade on page 474

its still only 22060 gp for an item with no wishes but a chance to re - roll a potential failed save.

I always thought this item was way to cheap any ideas of what would be a fairer cost?

Let's see:

+2 short sword = 8310 gp
+1 luck bonus on saves: 2000 (luck bonus) * 1.5 (extra power) = 3000

That means the reroll costs 10750, meaning a base price of 7166 (because it is multiplied by 1.5).

Yeah, it could be considered cheap for what it does. But not that much really. There are feats that allow similar abilities, and class abilities that allow the same thing (the Luck domain has two such powers). Let the reroll cast a flat 10000, times 1.5 for extra power, and leave the other bonuses, and you have a total price of 26310.

Or leave it like that, the 4000-odd gp won't really break the game.

My god

i cant believe this its clearly broken and has been for ages can none of you see this must be changed

a no save save is a big deal

I get the point that you can now get this with the new feats in the game but at the cost of two feats

thats a big deal when you think about it

for twenty grand this is cheap way to cheap please could someone give me there view of a fairer costing please

Actually I think its fine because of the risk factor involved with the ability to reroll a single die roll once per day, and taking the second result no matter what whether good or bad.

sorry that i dont agree with you would use this re - roll on an obvious low roll particularly on a one at a critical time.

for twenty thousand gold thats so cheap

its a no brainer

thanks for your view thou

Thanks for all the replies.

Here are my thoughts on the other classes. Feel free to jump in and correct any misconceptions.

Cleric: Channeling feats seem popular plus maybe some item creation.
Wizard: Item creation feats in addition to a few combat related ones or the other direction with metamagic replacing the item creation.
Rogue: Kind of just what flavor you want with an emphasis on movement and sneakiness. Speed and reflexes seem important.
Paladin: Improving smite or hurting undead/demons, etc. and basic combat improvements. Mounted combat?
Rangers: Pick a direction with TWF or archery and run with it.
Sorcerer: Metamagic seems more important to get the most out of a limited spell selection. Must have spells?
Barbarian: Never cared for the class but rage combined with perception and initiative seem smart.
Druid: No idea but nature related. Should be intuitive when I get the book in a couple of days. (Amazon)
Monk: I could use some help with the selection but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
Bard: Another class I am not fond of. Increasing performance seems smart.
Fighter: Already have enough ideas from above.

hi

here is my email sean.connors68@hotmail.com

if you require any more help

would be happy to talk on a much deeper level

regards

One thing that could have been corrected i think is the luck blade on page 474

its still only 22060 gp for an item with no wishes but a chance to re - roll a potential failed save.

I always thought this item was way to cheap any ideas of what would be a fairer cost?