Angel Hunter D's page

So, I'm liking a lot of what I'm seeing with the Inventor (I think there may be too much overlap with the Alchemist for my liking thematically, but that ship appears to have sailed) but Unstable is something I'm not digging.

Unstable yields a powerful effect, that you can only use on innovations (of which you appear to only ever have 1), and there's a 10 minute activity to reset it so you can do it again....This is a Focus Pool. Sure, there's a DC 17 check to try doing it again, but that's the only difference. You could just add a class action that's a DC 17 flat check Free Action to regain a Focus Point, and it's functioning the same but doesn't require the addition of a whole new mechanic.

For streamlining and ease of play I'm not a fan of near-identical mechanics. I'm betting part of this is so that it functions in places like the Mana Wastes, but a modifying clause in their rules should accomplish the same thing. If Oracles can have a weird focus pool, why not Inventors as well?

Hi, I'm trying to purchase the PDF of Pathfinder Lost Omens: Pathfinder Society Guide. When I get to the page to enter the CVC I submit, the little spinner shows up, then it disappears and I'm still on that page.

So I'm reading through the rulebook, and looking at making a monk with barbarian dedication.

I'm still not parsing things great, am I right that when you get weapon specialization from your class (that isn't barbarian) you do not get the specialization ability? It just sits there in the Instinct description to taunt me?

I'm pretty sure elves have large IRISES not PUPILS, unless there's something in the old art I've missed?

So a buddy of mine made a PFS Verminous Hunter riding a giant mantis. And of course, every time he makes a character we need to come on here.

The Conundrum: What happens when he's 10' up and his bug grapples something when he's riding it? Does his carrying capacity come into play when grappling and flying?

So my GF and I have been trying to make a Child of Acavna and Amaznen for PFS, and we thought it'd be cool to have it fight like Gandalf - But I can't seem to find anything stating what kind of weapon a double weapon (like a quarterstaff) is when used one-handed. Is my search-fu weak again or is this buried somewhere deeper than Moria?

So I've been looking at the Cloudgazer feat for sylphs and I have a few questions that I've had trouble answering. This is for PFS BTW.

1: How does it interact with Obscuring Mist? I saw a couple threads but they were less than definitive.

2: Does it work with a smokestick? the stick makes a cloud of smoke like the fogcloud spell.

3: Is there a non-magical source of fog/mist/cloud?

So I'm trying to build a fighter for a friend that really wants to be a fighter, but we run into the problem of every idea they come up with can be done 2-4 times better by another class.

So, here's the Challenge: What is a PFS legal build or gimmick that only a fighter can pull off? If we're taking the worst saves and skills we might as well do something unique.

So I'm trying to build a Vigilante with a friend that wants to TWF (but since we play Society I suggested the Vigilante for skills over the fighter). However my friend thinks that Social Talents only work in the Social Identity and Vigilante Talents only work in the Vigilante Identity. I've seen at least one Social Talent with that limit, but I haven't seen it anywhere else, are they limited or can the character use them in either persona? And in Society is there any reason not to stay in one persona if it can use all it's talents in that one?

Like the title says, what all gets multiplied?

I have a character in PFS that stacks bonuses and uses a Lance, and charges a lot. So, to make sure I'm not too broken I want to get the following bonuses cleared up for myself.

1 - Power Attack damage?

2 - Pheromone Arrow + Scent damage?

3 - Weapon Enchantments (things like Flaming or Vicious)

So my lady and I are back at the drawing board again, Psychic Anthology has some real nice goodies. An assumption I'm making is that Kinetic Knight gets approved for PFS, so aside from the archetypes and new blasts I'd like to stick to PFS legal stuff.

Anyhow, she really wants to make her Halfling Aerokineticist into a Knight - which is fine and dandy but it makes her a MADer character. Instead of high Dex and Con we now needed Dex, Con, Str (and Cha not at a negative) - and this results in a final STR score of 16 on a 3/4 BAB class. Those numbers are not what I'd want to see on a physical attacker normally, except Kineticists can get touch attacks with energy blades.

Lightning is decent for her first blade, except it doesn't really have any energy composites that I can see. The rest of what air gives her is great - who doesn't want a flying "martial" in fullplate? Except for the part of it's second blast being physical and therefore not fitting our goals of an expanded element.

Fire has the problem of being heavily resisted, and really wants to double up for Blue Flame.

Negative (void) doesn't work on Undead, but void is an odd element and I don't know what it really adds except a backup energy type.

Cold (water) has resistance problems like fire, but not quite as bad, and its' defense isn't totally useless on a knight.

Positive (wood) is the worst blast imaginable, but it can hurt haunts and the wood defense is decent.

Any ideas on which one would be the best choice for an expanded element?

So the other day one of my local PFS GMs told me that a Bloodrager can't use a wand while raging. This really cramps my style of sucking on a wand of Infernal Healing after a fight to not succumb to "sudden barbarian death syndrome" so I need to know if I'm a moron and it's always been like that, or if there's a rule that GM didn't see.

TL;DR - Can a Bloodrager use a wand in a Bloodrage?

So my GF loves wolves and wants to have one as an animal companion. Right now I talked her into trying a velociraptor, but she says it detracts from the "realism"...

I know how to build a good dino, but I can't for the life of me figure out the wolf, it just looks sub-par all around to me. I'm thinking maybe a Vicious Stomp/Trip build would work because of the bite? Are there any style trees that work well on a companion? Anyhow, it'd be great if I could surprise her with a wolf that isn't dead weight.

So I'm in need of another Low-Level PFS character. I thought, wouldn't a flying lancer be fun? I could charge all the time. So far it's becoming a headache. I figured that a medium mount for a small character would be the best way to go, but around level 7 all the best mounts get large.

So the big question is - Do I go for a weaker, medium sized mount? Or stick with the Roc? (Also, they can still squeeze when flying, right?)

The rest of the build is fairly standard, I think.

STR:18 DEX:12 CON:12 INT:12 WIS:12 CHA: 7

(Bumping WIS later, for spells and whatnot)

Traits: Beast Bond, Magical Knack.

Level 1 (Dragoon Fighter 1): Mounted Combat, Skill Focus-Ride, Ride-By Attack
Level 2 (Hunter 1)
Level 3 (Hunter 2): Spirited Charge; Precise Shot
Level 4 (Hunter 3): Escape Route
Level 5 (Hunter 4): Boon Companion
Level 6 (Dragoon Fighter 2): Wheeling Charge
Level 7 (Hunter 5): Power Attack

If a Large flying mount isn't as bad as I think though, I might try this.

Level 1 (Dragoon Fighter 1): Mounted Combat, Skill Focus-Ride, Ride-By Attack
Level 2 (Hunter 1)
Level 3 (Hunter 2): Spirited Charge; Precise Shot
Level 4 (Hunter 3): Escape Route
Level 5 (Hunter 4): Boon Companion
Level 6 (Dragoon Fighter 2): Wheeling Charge
Level 7 (Hunter 5): Combat Expertise
Level 8 (Hunter 6): Pack Flanking

So I've been going over Bestial Aspect for Rageshapers because I just leveled up to get it, and something popped out to me, want to make sure I'm reading it right.

The first part is old news to most of us: "whenever a rageshaper gains a natural attack through the use of a polymorph spell, he can increase the damage done by that attack by one die. If the spell grants multiple natural attacks, the rageshaper must choose one kind of natural attack for the ability to enhance"

So that's pretty obvious, polymorph myself and I get to pick one type of gained attack to bump.

The part that's been bugging me is the end: "If the rageshaper's bloodline powers already grant natural attacks or alternate modes of movement, then the bonuses granted by bestial aspect also apply to these bloodline powers."

It's that "also" that I'm finding ambiguous. Does that mean:

1: My bloodline natural attacks are ALSO a valid target for this ability
2: Are my bloodline natural attacks ALSO enhanced in addition to any polymorph effects (like Maw of the Devourer)

Then comes the Dragon Bite Question. If #2 is the correct reading, does Dragon Bite ("whenever the dragon disciple uses his bloodline to grow claws, he also gains a bite attack") count as a bloodline natural attack? And if so, does it benefit from Bestial Aspect as well as the Claws?

Like the title says, I want a Paladin X/ Hell Knight X for PFS. He's going to be my back-burner low level beat-stick for when I want to play it easy with the new guys. I've always wanted to play a Hell Knight, and until the other day Paladin hadn't occurred to me because it never interested me before. Now I'm seeing some interesting synergy (I think that's the right term) and could use some feedback/opinions on what I'm thinking here. Will it do the job of fun/dumb tank? or did I accidentally make something terrible again?

Race: Ifrit or Half Elf (Darkvision and fire resistance are cool, as are SLA. But 2 favored classes is boss for multiclassing)

Stats (Ifrit)
Str:16 Dex:12 Con:14 Int:12 Wis:6 Cha:16

Stats (Half-Elf)
Str:18 Dex:12 Con:14 Int:12 Wis:7 Cha:14

Traits: Fiery Gaze (or Adopted - Fiery Gaze); Blade of Mercy

Build Option 1

Feats[Paladin - Oath of Vengeance 6/HK - Order of the Godclaw 4]
1-Fey Foundling
3-Power Attack
5-Extra Lay on Hands
7-Cornugon Smash
9-Extra Lay on Hands
11-Extra Lay on Hands

Gear: Hellknight Plate, Tower Shield, Longsword OR Gamin the Mistforged

Build Option 2

Feats[Paladin - Oath of Vengeance 6/HK - Order of the Godclaw 4]
1-Fey Foundling
3-Splintering Weapon
5-Power Attack
7-Cornugon Smash
9-Extra Lay on Hands
11-Extra Lay on Hands

Gear: Hellknight Plate, Tower Shield, Terbutje (Great Terbutje if Half-Elf) [Have a bunch of plain (can they be Obsidian or Stone?) Terbutje, and 1 Blood Crystal Terbuje]

So I've finally gotten a chance to play my Fey-Blooded Kitsune Tattooed Diplo-Mancer again and he's about to level up to LVL 4.

My LVL 2 spell is pretty much locked in at this point (Oppresive Boredom, because I get Hideous Laughter for free next LVL).

So, like the title says: Sleep's service has been the definition of mediocrity and he's FIRED! Though that may be because my GM's always roll very hot (like, all 7 castings failed in one game with a DC 22). My other spells are: Summon Minor Monster (skunks are fun), Disguise Self (why be me, when I can be you?), and Entangle (I wish cities and dungeons were greener). Initially I made this guy because I couldn't roll worth a damn for 2 months and wanted to make as few as possible, he's also my first full caster.

I know there are a bunch of utility spells I could replace it with (Minor Image, Grease) but since this is PFS I'm looking for something simple and with minimal table-variation (if any) that can make me contribute when facing something I can't bore or crack up (mindless or very high SR/Will Save).

So far the Candidates are: Snowball.....that's all I could come up with. anyone got anything better I could use? And would Extra Traits and Intensify be worth it for that slush-puppy?

So I've spent more time in the last few days than I'd like to admit tuning a build for a PFS character. I have everything down for him to play splendidly...except what gear he's going to use (and how that might affect his stats.

So I'm opening it up for you forumites, here are the Rules.

1: Class proficiency - simple/martial weapons and medium armor/shields (no tower). Can have 1 exotic proficiency for free.

2: Must be survivable - it only has a d8 HD. (Higher AC is always better)

3: Can be ranged or melee (reach preferable for melee)

4: Must have 18 INT, all other stats are negotiable.

5: There is a MAXIMUM of 1 feat allowed (IE, finesse or something to make the weapon/armor setup work well)

Show me what you got.

Ok, this is for PFS just so we're clear.

So as far as I can figure, you can give familiars slotless items no problem - So Ioun Stones should be kosher.

Next part of this is about what a tumor familiar can do while attached. If there's a reference for this already that'd be great but I haven't found it. If I gave the growth a purple ioun stone, can it use it to hit me with a spell while I do my own thing on my turn?

bonus round: if the stone has a full-round casting spell in it does he have to concentrate if he takes damage?

So I got my friend into PFS, she likes it but wasn't a fan of the Psychic pregen she played at her first game (all undead and constructs). So I went over every class with here and she really likes the look of the Investigator, but she wants it to use a bow because the other character she's gonna try before level 2 is a reach cleric (if she doesn't like that then a reach investigator won't be very fun either).

Anyhow, I figure the only way for that not to suck is to take a level in fighter and then go into investigator. This is what I've come up with, let me know if I'm way off for making this not suck in combat.

Race:Human

Str:14 Dex:16 Con:12 Int:17 Wis:10 Cha:7

Lvl 1:Fighter(1) - Feats: P.B. Shot; Precise Shot; Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
Lvl 2:Empiricist Investigator(1)
Lvl 3:Empiricist Investigator(2) - Feat: Focused Shot
Lvl 4:Empiricist Investigator(3) - Talent: Quick Study; Attribute: Int
Lvl 5:Empiricist Investigator(4) - Feat: Ranged Study
Lvl 6:Empiricist Investigator(5) - Talent: (Expanded Inspiration OR Mutagen)
Lvl 7:Empiricist Investigator(6) - Feat: Deadly Aim

With the BaB of an investigator, even bumped by the fighter level, I don't think Full Attacks will be her thing. Because Studied Target only applies on the first hit, it lead me to further thinking that a single shot is probably better for her. She's always going to be in charging range so Heavy Armor might be worth it.

Anyhow, how does this look? I know the first 2 levels will be a little dull, but after that does it look viable for when the party face/skill monkey needs to fight?

Hey forumites, had this come up in PFS and everyone was foggy on the rules for it. While my player killing already happened :,( I need to have this down better for the next time it happens

Situation: an evil haunt hits us with "Song of Discord" (Compulsion & Mind Affecting). I've had my resonant power from my Clear Spindle Ioun Stone active before the haunt triggered.

Question: What happens to me?

Hey guys, I've been toying with this idea for a bit and seen a few similar threads but they haven't quite answered the two nagging questions I'm having. I know a Rageshaper/DD isn't exactly an optimization field-day, but I don't want to have to play with the Monkey-Wizard Carry-Character just to survive past level 6.

1: This has got me scratching my head - in regards to the Deathless Initiate feats and Raging Vitality feat. I can't tell which is better. The way I'm building I could go up to Deathless Initiate as a Half Orc, or be a Human and get Dragon Style and Raging Vitality. (I suppose I could also get Die Hard and Raging Vitality as a Half Orc as well). Which option seems like it will have the most payoff in keeping me alive as an angry angry character?

2: Robes of Arcane Heritage - Are wings when I'm raging (most/all combats) past level 7 worth the 16,000 GP? Or should I put that GP into my Amulet of Mighty Fists (or other magical goodies).

So, ever since looking at the Deliquescent Gloves I've been having a hell of time figuring out how they work when I use them for the touch attack. I hope I just missed a simple rule somewhere and this isn't gonna be a drawn out headache.

Basically - do I treat them as natural weapons? manufactured weapons? something else? Do I get one for each glove or did I miss some rule on how many touch attacks I can get a turn?

So I've been toying around with a build for a bloodrager/dragon disciple. I can easily get him up to 20 rage rounds by the time he prestiges, but I don't know how many I need for higher level Society scenarios.

The plan is to use the rage-claws almost exclusively, so what's the longest combat in society I can expect to face? and will I need more than 20 rounds before lvl 10? (or more than 25 after that)

So, I've been having a lot of fun with my kineticist in PFS lately, but I've found that basic geokinesis has been causing some hiccups. So I'll just list specific questions below.

1: How fast/hard to I move rocks/dirt? (some rough and math shows that at lvl 4 the rocks would have anywhere from 3-13 lbf behind them, if that adds any perspective)

a) I tried using this to dig through rubble (as it was loose rocks and dirt) but the GM didn't allow it because he has no idea how long it would take to excavate a collapsed temple wall. Also said digging rules assume a shovel but I would think a geokineticist would surpass a shovel (sooner or later). How should speed compare to a shovel?

b)If I get tools made of stone, can I manipulate them with my geokinesis? It's a rock so I would think so. Relating to how hard these things move, if I stuck a rock piton into something with my geokinesis does it still take a minute to stick in?

2: Earth Climb: I understand the mechanics of climb checks, but a couple things stick out for me

a)What method of climbing goes with a climb speed? Am I assumed to use all my limbs or can I run up a wall/ceiling provided I make the check?

b)Is there some method of securing myself to a wall/ceiling qickly so my hands are free (if I do need to use them to climb) and I don't want to have to worry about falling? (like geokinesis on pitons or something similar but faster)

So I had the fun idea earlier for a mounted gnome kineticist. But I'm a little foggy on how using a SLA works when mounted, and how the actions the 2 of us take interact. My searching didn't find anything like this, but if this was answered elsewhere please let me know.

ie. we start in melee, can the mount full-attack and 5-foot step back so i can gather power and blast?

can the mount move,then I gather power and blast in the same turn? or do I have to gather and wait for next turn to blast while riding it?

do things like jagged flesh or searing flesh poke/cook it?

As a GM I tend to draw inspiration from all around me, and I watch musicals all the time with my little sister. So I got thinking, what about a campaign/setting where everyone's first level is taken in bard or skald (even NPCs)? Perhaps a focus on interaction skills, civilian scuffles and/or legal proceedings? More of a high-stakes drama than a dungeon-crawl.

Call me crazy, but what do you guys think a setting filled with bards would look like, where even a small child has a few rounds of bardic performance a day? and more importantly how fun do you think it'd be?

So, I'm currently GMing a campaign that's heavily influenced by the .hack// series that is on hold for summer and I want to start developing the endgame for the adventure. I've been making scenarios up as we go so far, drawing from a bunch of different influences but the overall plot has been fleeing from and trying to find a way to defeat a powerful demi-god of the Dark Tapestry.

Where I need some help is that at the end of their quest they'll receive a powerful tool to defeat the demi-god from another powerful, but sealed, god. I want them to have their climactic showdown around level 18, but I've only played some society and low level modules and have no idea what kind of gear they should have at those levels.

TL;DR - Making a super-weapon for a final confrontation at lvl 18, how good should it be to feel better than normal but not make the players without it feel useless.

So my PFS VC has made a ruling I'm not entirely sold on. The first almost invalidates an archetype, the second is just really annoying. So, since my VC ruled this I need a FAQ or 2 other VCs to argue this with him. Unless I'm wrong that's OK too.

Hexcrafter - hex arcana does not use my magus level as my witch level, only the hex I get at LVL 4 does.

Arcane deed - does not use magus level as swashbuckler level, for the same reasons as above.

So, as the title says i've had a few disagreements with my local VC about rules. I don't want to be a jerk, but i'm pretty sure he's quoting a couple rules that don't exist (or were removed from earlier printings/editions). I know he has veto on things that are foggy, which i'm fine with (our ideas of common sense are at odds too, but i can live with that) but i'm more interested in him being straight up wrong and then dropping the "VC's word" hammer so i can't debate it anymore.

all i can think of doing is asking him to show me the exact passages he's quoting (which we rarely have time for) or setting an offering to convene a coven of other VC's or Paizo employees (which i've heard is rather hard to do).

what's the most tactful way to approach this?

So my understanding is that I can only have 1 combat animal companion and numerous non-combat animal companions. I'm playing a 6th level beastmaster ranger and trying to figure out what i can do with them.

My question is: What can a non-combat companion do?

More specifically, let's say I walk into a barn with my T-Rex and Bat. Goblins jump out of the hay and attack me. I command my Bat to go hang in the rafters, as per the "flee" trick (it has to keep me in range of it's senses, namely it's blindsight I'm thinking) while the dino and I fight. So me and the dino kill most of the goblins, but one of them drank a potion of invisibility. Now, I know I can have the dino try to sniff out the goblin, but let's say he got knocked out. Can I use my improved empathic link to "see through" my bat's "eyes" and use it's blindsense to locate the goblin?

So I've been looking at the archives of nethys, and they say that an allosaurus is a legal PFS companion. However I can't find it listed in the additional resources. Is this a mistake? Or is there some boon that I'm unaware of? That site is usually correct, so I'm confused.

So I'm GMing a campaign, and my party comp is as follows:

Gnome Skald
Gnome Bard
Sylph Druid
Aasimar Monk of the Mountain
Kasthasa Hunter (refuses to do melee)
Half-Elf Slayer

Starting at level 1, 15 point buy, the highest "to hit" modifier in melee is +2....

I don't see how they can survive any combat at all, especially since the melee guys have AC 10-11 after raging song goes off.

The first scenario requires some combat, but even that "cinematic combat" might prove lethal. Any ideas on how i can keep them alive without making them fight tiny rats all the time or fudging my rolls?

So i'm going to be GMing a campaign, and the players want an "eldritch horror" theme. I figured the Dark Tapestry sounds about right for that. My problems with devising a plot are: How to i pull the different PCs into one adventure? How do i make a villain that isn't just a crazy cult trying to summon the old ones? what are some good enemies for them to fight?

So I've volunteered to GM a pathfinder campaign for some friends of mine recently, and I've had an idea that could either be excellent or the worst ever. First off, for some background on my GM abilities, I've been GMing FFG's Dark Heresy for several years now, and I've been playing PF Society for a couple months now.

The idea: Super Narrative Mode

- Describe your character in purely RP terms, GM determines the best class to go with that.

-GM holds all the character sheets and rolls all the dice, players do everything as normal, except they can only know the gear they're wearing/holding (and whatever they've memorized). To look at their inventory/purse they need to be in a safe spot or use the 'retrieve item' action to see the sheet and interact with stuff in there.

-at level up they describe how they want to advance, and GM determines whether they multi-class or not, and what feats/skillpoints are chosen.

I think this could be incredibly fun in a campaign with a lot of roleplaying and sparse fights, but too lethal for a dungeon crawl. I want to know what you guys think about this, I haven't suggested it yet so i can rework or drop it if need be.

Good idea or Bad idea?

So I'm reading the descriptions of Defiant and Shield Master, and I can't figure out how these interact. I'm still new, and a defiant klar and shield master are making my brain melt.

1:Shield Master ignores penalties for attacking with the shield while wielding another weapon. Does that only apply to shield bashes? or is there some penalty I'm ignorant of when attacking with a klar?

2:It also adds the shield's enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls as if they were weapon enhancements. does that mean a klar enhanced as a shield for +n is also a +n weapon when attacking with it?

3: Defiant states "Against the designated foe, the item's enhancement bonus to AC is +2 better than its actual bonus and provides DR 2/— against attacks from that foe. This increase in enhancement bonus applies only to the armor or shield's enhancement bonus..." Does that mean that with shield master that against my designated foe my weapon enhancement is +2 higher than normal?

As the title says, I plan on taking extra traits as a feat come lvl 5. I'm playing a magus, so one of those traits is going to be "metamagic master."

There are 3 traits I think will be useful, but I don't know which will be more useful at lower levels. (I'm a new PFS player, only at lv 1 on my first character right now)

My picks are: Reactionary, Focused Mind, Adopted: Balloon Headed.

I have no points in Wis, so my perception sucks without the trait (no idea how prevalent perception checks are, but if it's anything like other games I've played, they'll happen all the time and be important). I have 4 Initiative without Reactionary. I'm a low level magus, so concentration checks can be hard.

Which two should I take at lvl 1?

Hi, like the title says I am a newcomer to Society play and d20 games in general. I decided to play a tiefling magus
(because I had recently watched Hellboy and the magus seems to BE high fantasy in one package, and hexes are
cool so I decided to be a Hexcrafter).

My problem comes with picking a level 1 primary spell. I don't have spell recall until it's almost time to make a new character,
so I can't just spam spells all day. My group usually has a paladin and a witch (2 friends I got to start up with me) in case that helps.

Basically, without spell recall and a base group composition of myself, a 2-H wielding Paladin, and a debuff Witch, which of the
two primary Magus spells will give me the most "Bang for my Buck": Shocking Grasp or Frostbite?

I know frostbite doesn't work on undead, but it has staying power and beats SG for damage longterm. On the other hand, SG hits most things
and get's the face-melting done right away. I can't decide on my own, please help.

Hi, new player here. I'm new to d20 systems, but I've played/GMd a lot of FFG's Dark Heresy.

My question is: Which is better - Burst or Sustained damage?

In DH, there are few limits on how often you can use an ability (my party has never taken any of the abilities with daily limits either). The only real limit is actions/turn and ammunition.

Pathfinder has a whack of daily limits, and I'm having trouble telling which abilites/spells/talents/traits are good with respect to killing stuff. I'm playing a hexcrafter magus, and I see cool metamagic abilities, but I can only use then n times per day, I only have n spells per day too. But I always have a sword, and 1/2 spells give multiple uses/targets. I've only played 1 session so far, but there were 3 fights over 2 days. If I only get 3-6 spells a day, limited enhancements doesn't seem so bad, but I could get a meta-magic rod/feat, or i could get a combat feat or better weapon for the same resources, a weapon/feat that is always on. I can't tell which is better right away, and I'm hoping some feedback will help me sort it out. Thanks guys.