How to make a decent Wolf


Advice

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Scarab Sages

So my GF loves wolves and wants to have one as an animal companion. Right now I talked her into trying a velociraptor, but she says it detracts from the "realism"...

I know how to build a good dino, but I can't for the life of me figure out the wolf, it just looks sub-par all around to me. I'm thinking maybe a Vicious Stomp/Trip build would work because of the bite? Are there any style trees that work well on a companion? Anyhow, it'd be great if I could surprise her with a wolf that isn't dead weight.


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A Human Wild Child Brawler 1/Hunter X combo can accomplish what she wants.

First a foremost the need not to have a 13 INT for Combat Expertise is great. Add in Martial Flexibility and Improved Unarmed Strike you have a great 1st level dip that keeps your Animal Companion (Wolfie) at full HD.

The feats:

Combat Expertise
Power Attack

Great for First level as this opens up A LOT of Flexibility options as well as gets your Pre-req of Combat expertise out the way.

Next you will want:
Outflank (Level 3 for free thanks Hunter class)
Pack Flanking (Now you flank as long as you and your Wolf are threatening)
Combat Reflexes (Pre-req)
Vicious Stomp (Get an Extra AoO just for the Wolf landing a trip)
Broken Wing Gambit
Pair Opportunist
Coordinated Maneuvers (This is not mandatory but helps Wolfie as well as helps the Hunter who grabs any Combat maneuvers through Martial Flexibility)
Seize the Moment (Not Mandatory but a good Feat)

I recommend Using a reach weapon so you can stand to the side or 1 square behind the wolf and still get outflank. If the enemy closes on you switch to unarmed strikes if you can not 5 foot step back.

The Wolf will in NO WAY be dead weight with this style of build since he gains ANY and ALL teamwork feats the hunter gets. Martial Flexibility can give you Teamwork feats since teamwork feats ARE combat feats. This means both Hunter and Wolf get can benefit from Martial Flexibility.


I wouldn't say it is dead weight, exactly.

Wolves have only one natural attack, which means they both gain 1.5x str/power attack damage and get an extra attack from the multiattack ability of animal companions. It basically means they get an single iterative attack at BAB-5.

Looking at later options (after it gets int 3), you could grab hurtful+cornugon smash. That would provide the wolf with both a debuff option and an extra full BAB attack. And that could be done on a move.

After that, just pop some haste onto it, and it is not that different from a 2 hander. It gets fairly good str when it goes large (21 str), and gets scaling bonuses to str, so it gets a lot from extra attacks due to the x1.5 damage.

Obviously this strategy works better for eidolons that may or may not be wolf shaped (quadrupeds start with a single bite, but bipeds can be switched to a single slam). Switching to summoner might give her an easier time of making a strong 'wolf like creature'.

Grand Lodge

Not exactly a wolf.. But the worg is basically a meaner wolf and super awesome. I put a build together a while ago that focuses on it. You can do the same thing but with two feats to spare if you simply take a wolf instead. You can find it HERE. (I actually have both the human version and the wayang version found further down the page and enjoy the wayang way more)

Scarab Sages

Bishop, I meant a way to get it on the Companion alone, she wants to be an archer/caster. That build is great, but not what I'm looking for.

lemeres, thanks for pointing that out - Wolf doesn't look so bad now (aside from the large size, it can get annoying in Society)

After going over the wild-child stuff I'm thinking the following

1-Combat Reflexes
2-Narrow Frame (taking it early)
5-Improved Unarmed Strike
8-Vicious Stomp

Doesn't look too bad, wish I could fit Power Attack in there and Imp. Unarmed is annoyingly not a regular companion feat.

The demoralize option seems a little easier to do early, (level 5) but Hurtful isn't PFS legal anymore (which I just realized I forgot to mention - we play PFS).

EDIT: WORG! That fixes a few things, that Worg build might work if I can sell her on an evil wolf.


Angel Hunter D wrote:
Bishop, I meant a way to get it on the Companion alone, she wants to be an archer/caster. That build is great, but not what I'm looking for.

Oh I did not Know you meant for a Archer or Caster. When I read Vicious Stomp I was thinking of a character that Synergies with the Wolf's free Trip on his bite.

Well Hunter is still good for Ranged. You get Precise shot at level 2 for free. Tho you run the problem of the Wolf being in Melee distance to your target...so the rider might provoke AoO for the ranged attacks.

I have not played (But have Brewed) a caster version of the Hunter but it IS possible to be a caster Hunter. Spells Like Snowball and Flurry of Snowballs give good low level Rime spell Options. Rime gives the Entangles condition just for taking cold damage. Entangled is a BRUTAL condition. You also have some other spells on your list that can be used for Either damage or Control. Entangle line is always a good one for Difficult terrain to cut off charging foes and really good verse Mooks. You have Fog spells as well and a Wolf can scent out the enemy in the Fogs, Just give him blind fight for added effect. You also have some decent offensive spells like Produce Flame and Call lightning.

Hope any of this helps.

Grand Lodge

Angel Hunter D wrote:
EDIT: WORG! That fixes a few things, that Worg build might work if I can sell her on an evil wolf.

I love mine. It can talk! It's always medium so it doesn't have the large issues, but it still gets a good strength score. You can only have one if you're true neutral via the Monstrous Mount feat and the earliest you can get it is level 4 (you can just have a regular wolf until then).


Angel Hunter D wrote:

After going over the wild-child stuff I'm thinking the following

1-Combat Reflexes
2-Narrow Frame (taking it early)
5-Improved Unarmed Strike
8-Vicious Stomp

What unarmed strike will the wold be using with Vicious Stomp? Wolves have a bite Natural Attack and have no actual unarmed strikes. All Improved Unarmed Strike does is change an existing unarmed strike to a better version and as Paizo staff has said before you cannot improve an ability that does not exist.

I would say unless your starting at higher levels you can afford to move the Narrow Frame to level 5 since the wolf does not even get large until 7.

See if you can take Ability Focus: Trip at 1, Power Attack at 2, Narrow Frame at 5 and then Improved Natural attack at 8. By level 8 with the flanking feats in concert with your hunter and the 23 Str you will have (minimum) you will be hitting for:
2D6 (Bite) + 1d6 (Precise Strike TW Feat) +9 (Str) and +6 (Power Attack) with a free trip at +2 over BAB on every hit.

+10 to hit, with the Outflank Teamwork feat that goes to +14 against Flat Footed AC when attacking with your hunter and with Pack Flanking (which you can get on your hunter) you flank as long as you and your AC are attacking the same target. Add in Power Attack that makes it +12 to hit flat footed AC for 3d6+15 Damage and a +15 trip with every hit. If you buy it a Collar (Amulet) of Mighty Fists the bite becomes magic and you can even add weapon effects to it (+1 Holy bite anyone?).

At level 9 you get the second attack at -5 and you can take actual Multiattack feat at level 10 to get that reduced to -2.

Sure it is not the monster that a Big Cat would be with the same feats but that Trip for free on every hit can be very nice.

Scarab Sages

Thanks for the advice guys, I think I'm good now mostly. Louise, she kinda hates using magic - she'll freeze for like, 5 minutes if you give her more than 2 options on anything - so she'll stick to entangle and buffs. Though Snowball is a great option, I can't believe I forgot about it, but that's probably because of great spells like Res. Energy and whatnot competing at low levels.

Gilfalas - Last I checked everything can make unarmed strikes, unless there was a FAQ I missed?

BTW, since wolves and worgs are pretty much the same thing, would she need to buy it new armor when she gets the worg?


Angel Hunter D wrote:

So my GF loves wolves and wants to have one as an animal companion. Right now I talked her into trying a velociraptor, but she says it detracts from the "realism"...

I know how to build a good dino, but I can't for the life of me figure out the wolf, it just looks sub-par all around to me. I'm thinking maybe a Vicious Stomp/Trip build would work because of the bite? Are there any style trees that work well on a companion? Anyhow, it'd be great if I could surprise her with a wolf that isn't dead weight.

Wolves are never sub-par, they just have a different focus.

If you are looking for min/max shenanigans, take the Monstrous Companion feat and chose a worg. It gets class levels as you advance.


Angel Hunter D wrote:
Gilfalas - Last I checked everything can make unarmed strikes, unless there was a FAQ I missed?

Actually I don't believe that is the case. Since wolves have a Natural Attack of bite it is covered by the Natural Attack rules. They are never unarmed.

As well Improved Unarmed Strike is not listed as a feat AC's can take. Though I realize if you bump their Int to 3+ they can take any feat they can physically do, I think a sound logical argument can be made to say they cannot make unarmed strikes (when was the last time you saw a wolf punch, kick or head butt to attack anything?).

You may want to check out the blog article Paizo did about animal companions and increasing their Int scores and how they react to different weapons.

I am unable to find any rule that say anything can do an unarmed strike. If have missed it I would be appreciative if you could link it for me.

Lastly remember that the Monstrous Companion feat REPLACES your Animal Companion class ability with a cohort, so no more Animal Companion table advancement and almost all your Hunter Animal Companion boosts become useless. That means you get a vanilla Worg at level 14 and it gains a total of 3 class levels by level 20. You also lose all the Animal Companion boosts like share spells, improved evasion, loyalty and the +4 when Handling Animal on it, teamwork feat sharing and you no longer have an animal companion for a class that is BUILT to boost one (Hunter).


It is a shame you can't use Hurtful. If you think you're going to successfully Trip often enough to get much use out of Vicious Stomp it would be fun if you could afford the Enforcer feat. I'd imagine the stomp being like the wolf jumping up and down on somebody - seems kind of funny to me...

You could also consider a different direction with Bodyguard. If you get Benevolent armor the AC boost can be pretty good, and if the PC rides around on the wolf Mounted Combat could make them kind of a defensive team. Broken Wing Gambit plus Paired Opportunists could also make even a caster hit pretty well in melee.

Scarab Sages

Montrous Mount gives you an AC, not a cohort - "You can select an exotic beast from the list of monstrous mounts to serve as your animal companion or special mount. You acquire and advance this creature in the same way as the mount or animal companion detailed in the class feature used as a prerequisite for this feat. You can also dismiss the creature as dictated by your class feature."

And I dunno about wolves, but my dogs headbutt coyotes all the time (and then do other things to them).


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Perhaps not trying to force her into a hyper-optimal character might actually be a better choice. Who knows, if she isn't feeling pressured to be terribly effective, she might stop having 5 minute freeze-ups when she has to make a choice. Does your table flip a load of **** if a player fails to make an optimal choice?


Angel Hunter D wrote:

lemeres, thanks for pointing that out - Wolf doesn't look so bad now (aside from the large size, it can get annoying in Society)

....
EDIT: WORG! That fixes a few things, that Worg build might work if I can sell her on an evil wolf.

Ah, size is an factor?

Are you sure you can't encourage her to balto it up with a wolf dog (ie- just a dog, but it is one of the cool fierce, kinda wolf-y looking ones like a Siberian Husky, and you pretend it is a cross breed with some wolf blood in it)

Yeah, not as great with str, but still respectable. No trip though. Sad it can't grab hurtful in PFS too. But the basic full/full/BAB-5 attack is still rather good.

I tend to rate wolves higher when you have some flanking build, preferably with with outflank. Since you are mostly maneuvering them around to be a flank buddy to improve your humanoid character, pounce is less valuable and a strong single attack after a move is more valuable.

Scarab Sages

Daw, you don't know us. Don't make assumptions. She's just terribly indecisive, about everything.


Asked and Answered


Angel Hunter D wrote:
She's just terribly indecisive, about everything.

Something I like to do with Indecisive players is get a 2 minute hourglass timer. In combat or fast paced parts of the game I hand it to the player who's turn it is to start their turn. If they do not make a decision in that 2 minutes then I pass to the next Character.

This also encourages the other players to plan before they get put on a timer and keeps the table on a pace.

You could even go as far as making a rule that only the DM and Player who has the Hourglass can speak...All others much be silent.

But this excerise actually helps indecisive people become slightly more decisive.


Wolves have an automatic trip attack they get with their bites. Do not estimate how much of a boost it is to the party when it works.


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The #1 thing I want to suggest is that you desist trying to make the animal companion what you want to it be. The absolute best thing you could do IMO is to let your GF make it herself with input if she asks, but if you are charged with building it then make it what she wants it to be. Don't do a 1-20 level build for the wolf. Maybe start with a few levels and encourage her to take it over after that. Don't optimize unless thats what she wants. Want to do something great? Go online together and find a cool wolf miniature.

The wolf is a strong choice for an animal companion, even if it doesn't have the extra attacks. I don't see it as sub-par. It is what I call a well-rounded animal companion, which means it has no glaring weaknesses. As far as role-playing goes it will also do a much better job of fitting into a typical campaign world. At the very least it will help with her immersion. The velociraptor shares some mechanical strengths with the wolf, but as you know it isn't what she wants. It has a good dexterity and constitution, and even though strength doesn't begin as its highest ability score it will end up as the highest.

As you know the free trip attempt is what makes the wolf special. Take advantage of that. It also has a good speed. Wearing armor might not fit in with what she wants, but it is a simple option to make the companion a lot more durable in a fight. She might like some of the companion archetypes too. I don't think any of them are mechanically superior, but they do offer some options she might think are fun.


One of the most famous "PC"s in the LSJ campaign is the wolf "Ivythorn" former companion to the druid Jorinthel. The wolf is since been awakened and is now a campaign NPC.


Angel Hunter D wrote:
Montrous Mount gives you an AC, not a cohort

Yes it does. But the post right above mine said Monstrous Companion and so that is what I was replying about.

I had missed the Monstrous Mount reference earlier in the thread.

Although I am still pretty sure that animals are not able to take Improved Unarmed Strike. I will keep looking for where it says they can.

Again if you have a reference of where it says everyone gets an unarmed strike it would be great if you could let me know. All I could find was the section in Unarmed Strikes that says:

Quote:
Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons

Also, unarmed strikes from a Large creature, assuming that wolf can do 'kicks, punches and headbutts' effectively are only 1d4 damage. And that cannot be improved with Improved Natural Attack given the line from the Unarmed Attack definition and are NOT increased by the wolf AC level up boosts.

So your really tanking your wolf/worgs damage dice.

Heck a large wolf of 3 Int with Improved Natural attack doing a Vital Strike would hit for 4d6 damage alone not including spells, strength or anything else. Average 14 damage before pluses beats average 2.5 damage before pluses in my book.

Scarab Sages

An hourglass is a great idea, I think I'll find one of those soon. Also, I build her characters for now because she's new and wants help -and she thinks the velociraptor will be fun because she loves to throw around as many dice as she can (one time she even said rolling is her favourite part of playing).

As for unarmed strikes, it's just for the follow-up from Vicious Stomp and the damage isn't too terrible.


Angel Hunter D wrote:
As for unarmed strikes, it's just for the follow-up from Vicious Stomp and the damage isn't too terrible.

Well then don't forget the -4 to hit and only normal strength damage.

As it says under the Animal Type:

Quote:
Animals are proficient with its natural weapons only.

All Unarmed Strikes count as light weapons so even power attack will suck with it.

So that Vicious Stomp will be at -4 to hit and for 1d4+Str. Lot of feats for horrible damage and accuracy and questionable legality.

Plus it is possible that there will be additional -5 to hit on the Stomp if you used the Bite natural attack in the round as a primary attack, which would make your Unarmed Strikes secondary attacks from combining Natural Attacks with non natural attacks/attacks other than the bite.


just reskin the raptor to a wolf :) you will have a compident pet and she will get the pet that she wants it is probably also the simpleest solution

Scarab Sages

Lady-J: Can't reskin in PFS

Also, since a Warg has 6 Int it might just be easier to turn it into a trip/dirty trick machine.

Grand Lodge

Gilfalas wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
As for unarmed strikes, it's just for the follow-up from Vicious Stomp and the damage isn't too terrible.

Well then don't forget the -4 to hit and only normal strength damage.

As it says under the Animal Type:

Quote:
Animals are proficient with its natural weapons only.

All Unarmed Strikes count as light weapons so even power attack will suck with it.

So that Vicious Stomp will be at -4 to hit and for 1d4+Str. Lot of feats for horrible damage and accuracy and questionable legality.

Plus it is possible that there will be additional -5 to hit on the Stomp if you used the Bite natural attack in the round as a primary attack, which would make your Unarmed Strikes secondary attacks from combining Natural Attacks with non natural attacks/attacks other than the bite.

Wow this guy is all kinds of wrong. First the "-4". If you want to go with this line of thought, you'll also have to prove that "unarmed proficiency" is a thing. The closest you'll be able to find is in the Golarion FAQ which says "if your deity grants you unarmed proficiency then you gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat--this doesn't help your point at all.

As you've said, animals are capable of taking the feat because their int is high enough (3+). The damage is 1d3 for medium and 1d4 for large (so I'm assuming that you're assuming a large creature) (plus strength obviously).

-5 to hit "in the same round"? No, no, and no. Absolutely not. You only take the -5 to hit for using secondary natural attacks (or primary natural attacks that are downgraded to secondary because) when you use a combination of natural attacks and manufactured (including unarmed in this case) weapons in a single full-attack action. Anything outside of that full-attack action doesn't have penalties associated with that full-attack.

Lastly, the point of Vicious Stomp isn't because it does "a lot of damage". It's because with Paired Opportunists you get a free AoO that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise and yours isn't limited to an unarmed strike. So you hit them with your regular weapon (and hopefully it's a high crit range weapon with keen that will keep the combo going provided by Pack Flanking and Outflank).


Plus, it would seem silly to have a wolf that mostly attacks with its claws. If you are going that far, you might as well tell him to switch to a small cat like a leopard instead.


Having one attack suggests the Vital Strike line when it's available.

Weapon Focus (Bite) applies to both the attack and trip attempt.

There are animal companion archetypes that allow for some nice things- extra spells known for a caster, or better movement at the expense of share spells.


As far as I know an unarmed strike would get the usual bonus damage from Power Attack unless it is being used as an "off-hand" weapon (which stomping on somebody as an AoO isn't). Regardless of what the RAW might say though, the idea of a stomping wolf just won't seem aesthetically appealing to a lot of folks. Maybe it would be interesting to consider Dirty Fighting instead, potentially even combined with the Human option which would let the Wolf start out with a 3+ Int.

Maybe something like this could be fun?
1-Dirty Fighting
2-Improved Trip
5-Tandem Trip
8-Outflank
10-Greater Trip

If the PC is a caster maybe she'd share a True Strike once in a while to make sure an enemy gets tripped. You're also only a couple of levels later getting an extra Bite after a trip instead of an unarmed strike. I'm not sure if the saddle which allows you to share teamwork feats with a mount is available in PFS, but if so it can be a fun item.

Assuming your PCs play together your PC could work with your girlfriend's wolf to devastate most foes silly enough to get around by walking on two legs. Since you're in PFS the DM can't just decide to make everything flying or incorporeal to avoid your the tripping.


Gilfalas wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
Gilfalas - Last I checked everything can make unarmed strikes, unless there was a FAQ I missed?

Actually I don't believe that is the case. Since wolves have a Natural Attack of bite it is covered by the Natural Attack rules. They are never unarmed.

As well Improved Unarmed Strike is not listed as a feat AC's can take. Though I realize if you bump their Int to 3+ they can take any feat they can physically do, I think a sound logical argument can be made to say they cannot make unarmed strikes (when was the last time you saw a wolf punch, kick or head butt to attack anything?).

You may want to check out the blog article Paizo did about animal companions and increasing their Int scores and how they react to different weapons.

I am unable to find any rule that say anything can do an unarmed strike. If have missed it I would be appreciative if you could link it for me.

Lastly remember that the Monstrous Companion feat REPLACES your Animal Companion class ability with a cohort, so no more Animal Companion table advancement and almost all your Hunter Animal Companion boosts become useless. That means you get a vanilla Worg at level 14 and it gains a total of 3 class levels by level 20. You also lose all the Animal Companion boosts like share spells, improved evasion, loyalty and the +4 when Handling Animal on it, teamwork feat sharing and you no longer have an animal companion for a class that is BUILT to boost one (Hunter).

A worg is a 5th level cohort

Worg wrote:

Over-sized, feral wolves with a predisposition toward evil, worgs often ally themselves with monstrous denizens of the forests or plains in which they roam. Anarchic knights with a propensity for both nature and violence might hope to acquire a worg as a companion.

Effective Cohort Level: 5th

If the cohort level is less than what is allowed by your druid level, the cohort gains class levels.

Quote:
If a magical beast's effective cohort level is lower than what is allowed by your effective druid level, the cohort gains class levels equal to the difference. A cohort with 1 class level gains the link and share spells abilities of an animal companion. A cohort with 3 class levels gains the evasion animal companion ability. A cohort with 6 class levels gains the devotion animal companion ability. If the class feature you use as a prerequisite for this feat does not grant one of those abilities (such as a cavalier's mount, which does not gain share spells), your monstrous mount also does not gain the ability

A druid, hunter, ranger with boon companion, etc. can eventually have a worg cohort with far more than just 3 class levels.

Abilities like Share Spells are gained by the cohort as it advances in class level. As 7th level is the perquisite for Monstrous Companion, a hunter choosing a worg could gain a worg cohort with 2 class levels right off the bat. Share Spells is gained by the cohort with its first class level.

Grand Lodge

Devilkiller wrote:

As far as I know an unarmed strike would get the usual bonus damage from Power Attack unless it is being used as an "off-hand" weapon (which stomping on somebody as an AoO isn't). Regardless of what the RAW might say though, the idea of a stomping wolf just won't seem aesthetically appealing to a lot of folks. Maybe it would be interesting to consider Dirty Fighting instead, potentially even combined with the Human option which would let the Wolf start out with a 3+ Int.

Maybe something like this could be fun?
1-Dirty Fighting
2-Improved Trip
5-Tandem Trip
8-Outflank
10-Greater Trip

If the dude's GF plays a hunter, literally none of those feats are necessary for the Animal Companion to take. Dirty Fighting won't be needed because it doesn't Improved Trip because it already gets a free trip when its bite hit, an attack + trip is better than just a trip. I know that gives you a +6 if you're flanking, total, but you already get a +2 if you're flanking so the difference is +4 which is not insignificant but let me go on.

If he's taking Outflank (which he gets for free as a lvl 2 hunter which his pet also gets for free) then he's already got a +4 bonus for flanking. Dirty Trick increase the flank bonus from +2 to +4 but Outflank already gives a +4 bonus so they don't do anything together. At this point, he's just missing +2 from having improved trip. Throw a menacing amulet of mighty fists on the wolf (worg) and it increases the flank bonus by +2 (costs 4000). I know this stacks with Improved Trip, but Improved trip doesn't add modifiers on your to hit with your bite (or stomp) which this does. If/When the hunter takes Tandem Trip, the wolf (worg) gets it for free (as a side note this increases the average from 10.5 to 13.825).

So the major point of taking Dirty Fighting / Improved Trip / Greater Trip is to make the opponent provoke when they fall. Combat Reflexes / Improved Unarmed Strike / Vicious Stomp does this sooner and provides nearly the same benefit (and you've got Combat Reflexes to take advantage of it at this point). So at this point any melee hunter wanting to take advantage of this would have Combat Expertise, Pack Flanking, and Paired Opportunists (and still has room for an extra feat like Tandem Trip by level 5 to match the pet's progression) (in addition to getting Outflank for free at level 2).

Snowlilly wrote:
snip

None of this matters for PFS. Monstrous Companion isn't legal for PFS. The original suggestion was to get a worg via Monstrous Mount which is legal for PFS.


Angel Hunter D wrote:

Bishop, I meant a way to get it on the Companion alone, she wants to be an archer/caster. That build is great, but not what I'm looking for.

lemeres, thanks for pointing that out - Wolf doesn't look so bad now (aside from the large size, it can get annoying in Society)

That's when you make it your awesome mount... like a proper orc of the Frostwolf Clan!


@claudekennilol - I didn't see that she was playing a Hunter. I guess that would change things a bit though I'm not very familiar with that class.


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Just to note, you can stick a Wolf onto any class with Animal Ally.

One very interesting combo would be a Warpriest with the Animal Blessing and an Animal Ally wolf...

*The Animal Fury Minor Blessing grants two claw attacks to an ally.

*The Improved Spell Sharing Teamwork Feat lets you buff your companion at the same time you buff yourself - and the Warpriest self-buffs like a fiend.

*Warpriest can easily afford the feats for Animal Ally (including Boon Companion).

So you can end up with a Wolf who has iterative bite attacks, claw attacks, and buffing from things like Divine Favor. And of course... you're still a Warpriest for your own combat purposes.

Silver Crusade

Sorry I must not understand something, how does the wolf get iterative bite attacks?


Grom Kranock wrote:
Sorry I must not understand something, how does the wolf get iterative bite attacks?

Multiattack at level 9 in Table 3-8: Animal Companion Base Statistics gives an iterative if you don't have at least 3 natural attacks.

Grand Lodge

Devilkiller wrote:
@claudekennilol - I didn't see that she was playing a Hunter. I guess that would change things a bit though I'm not very familiar with that class.

He didn't say she was, that's just one of the options. I was just saying that the build you suggested could be accomplished much easier with a Hunter.

Grand Lodge

Hunters get reduce animal at level 4, so the wolf can be brought down to managable size for an hour per level with one cast. 3k for a lesser rod of extend at level 7 will net you 14 hours of medium sized wolf, which should cover you for pfs.


Giving the Wolf claws would reduce the Bite damage and probably stop the Wolf from getting a 2nd Bite per round from Multiattack. Assuming you can get Haste or Blessing of Fervor on the scene I'd rather have 3 Bites with 3 Trip attempts than Bite/Bite/Claw/Claw. Some of the other buffs from Warpriest sound pretty great though.

A Skald with an animal companion could also potentially have some fun giving it various rage powers. For a while one of our games had a mammoth who was gaining around +8 AC, a couple of Claw attacks, and Pounce. He'd already given up multiattack to be a Bodyguard, so the Claws were pure extra damage.

I guess Skald isn't exactly the class of choice for an archer though since a regular Bard could get better bonuses on attack rolls with the bow. The Evangelist Cleric (perhaps of Erastil) could probably do well too and gets the animal companion cheap from the Animal domain plus Boon Companion.

Sovereign Court

How are you getting the animal companion on the skald? That sounds like it could be fun to figure out how to tack on.

I've been messing with the idea of a half-orc totemic(bull/maybe tiger)/urban(maybe)/red tongue(racial heritage tengu) "muscle summoner" to augment summoning(+4 str/con) small earth elementals, then rage to give them +84 str (enhancement+morale), +4 dex and another 4 con, rage powers for claws and gore attacks, or linnorm death curse, and the rogue talent for combat trick for a teamwork-like feat like Outflank.
Half-orc was for amplified rage feat, which is a teamwork feat, but not a combat feat. Currently only being shared with a valet familiar, from 1 level of bloodrager.

Edit: remembered augment summoning was an enhancement bonus.


Firebug wrote:
How are you getting the animal companion on the skald? That sounds like it could be fun to figure out how to tack on

Nature Soul + Animal Ally

Works for any class


Snowlilly wrote:
Firebug wrote:
How are you getting the animal companion on the skald? That sounds like it could be fun to figure out how to tack on

Nature Soul + Animal Ally

Works for any class

Although it doesn't fully turn on until level 7 when you grab boon companion. You basically get the ranger's animal companion, complete with the druid level-3. But you can only grab animal ally at level 5, so things get a bit delayed.

Still, it can be quite useful. As we have discussed, you can get a great flank buddy.


Angel Hunter D wrote:

So my GF loves wolves and wants to have one as an animal companion. Right now I talked her into trying a velociraptor, but she says it detracts from the "realism"...

I know how to build a good dino, but I can't for the life of me figure out the wolf, it just looks sub-par all around to me. I'm thinking maybe a Vicious Stomp/Trip build would work because of the bite? Are there any style trees that work well on a companion? Anyhow, it'd be great if I could surprise her with a wolf that isn't dead weight.

The vital strike line works well for the wolfs one attack, espically when increasing the bite damage with improved nat attack and then enlarging it as often as possible...and pump the trip ability as much as possible..it can be very helpful for a long way..


Vital Strike would produce a little extra damage, especially if you took Improved Natural Attack too, but I think the latter might be unavailable in PFS. If you're worried about doing more damage when the Wolf can't full attack you could consider Power Attack and Cleave. The Cleave could let you Bite and Trip twice with a standard action (assuming you have two foes in the right position)

Grand Lodge

Devilkiller wrote:
Vital Strike would produce a little extra damage, especially if you took Improved Natural Attack too, but I think the latter might be unavailable in PFS. If you're worried about doing more damage when the Wolf can't full attack you could consider Power Attack and Cleave. The Cleave could let you Bite and Trip twice with a standard action (assuming you have two foes in the right position)

It's only illegal if you don't have something which unlocks it as legal.

Additional Resources, Bestiary wrote:
Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source

If you look at what feats are available for an animal companion (in the druid class section in the prd), you'll see that Improved Natural Attack is an option. Likewise, a Natural Weapon Combat Style ranger can select it as one of his combat style feats because the style itself grants access to it.


Devilkiller wrote:
Giving the Wolf claws would reduce the Bite damage and probably stop the Wolf from getting a 2nd Bite per round from Multiattack. Assuming you can get Haste or Blessing of Fervor on the scene I'd rather have 3 Bites with 3 Trip attempts than Bite/Bite/Claw/Claw. Some of the other buffs from Warpriest sound pretty great though.

I don't think that a temporary effect granting two bonus natural attacks is going to go back and rewrite what an Animal Companion gained from the Multiattack feature when they reached level 9. By that logic, the moment a wolf is granted claws, they would receive Multiattack as a bonus feat... until the claws disappear. I think it makes much more sense that what the Multiattack feature gained at level 9 grants is simply what they get/got.

Anyhow, even if they do retroactively lose the extra bite, whether or not I would want Bite/Bite/Bite-5 or Bite/Bite/Claw/Claw would depend on what the wolf had going on.

Either way, the claws are absolutely hands-down better until level 9; and by that point, Blessing use is about to get plenty more options - like summoning a Battle Companion with the Animal Blessing.


@claudekennilol - That's interesting though I think Cleave is still probably better (assuming you'd likely want Power Attack to take advantage of prone foes who don't grant you an AoO by standing back up). In any event, if I end up playing some PFS scenarios I'll take a closer look at the PFS rules in case I might have any other misconceptions.

@BadBird - I'd expect to lose the extra Bite if I grew Claws, but I guess there could easily be table variation. Maybe it could warrant its own thread. Certainly you'd lose the extra 1/2 Str mod and Power Attack damage though. I suppose the Claws could be pretty nice if you were in position to full attack, had a lot of buffs going, and weren't confident that you'd be able to generate extra attacks with stuff like Trip and AoOs. For PFS characters I suppose that stretch from when you get the Wolf at level 5 until you reach level 9 is potentially a more significant chunk of your career (PFS used to only run to 12th level I think - not sure if that's still true)


The feat would toggle on and off. You have the multi-attack ability, what it does is dependent on how many natural attacks you have at the moment.

PFS normal play only goes to 11. There are some scenarios and modules you can play 12+, but they are vastly less common then playing lv11.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The feat would toggle on and off. You have the multi-attack ability, what it does is dependent on how many natural attacks you have at the moment.

It seems more likely to me that the Multiattack feature simply grants one of two features granted to a Companion when it reaches level 9 and the story ends there, since it's written as 'Multiattack: get X or Y', rather than as an ongoing ability. I don't know if there's anything that really clarifies it either way though.

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