Amaranthar's page

Amaranthar wrote:

Shaibes wrote:

Vanity microtransactions are fine with me. If someone wants to throw money at GW for pretty bunting and fancy hats, I'm all for it.

I am not OK with purchasing content in a subscription-based game. That's F2P territory there.

See, this is "pay to win" in my mind.

The tavern owner who pays for decor has a nicer tavern than the one who doesn't.

Same thing for anything else.

But what concerns me more is paying for content like dungeons and the loot within. If you don't pay, you don't get (or maybe it's just a whole lot hard to get).

I wish they'd just go to a sub and let the "gets" in the game come from game play and success in that.

"Get used to disappointment."

It's pretty hard to disappoint me these days. It's that whole "been there, done that" thing. I have nothing to lose if they go this route and I just keep looking. Which, honestly, is how I expect it to go.

Vanity microtransactions are fine with me. If someone wants to throw money at GW for pretty bunting and fancy hats, I'm all for it.

I am not OK with purchasing content in a subscription-based game. That's F2P territory there.

See, this is "pay to win" in my mind.

Same thing for anything else.

But what concerns me more is paying for content like dungeons and the loot within. If you don't pay, you don't get (or maybe it's just a whole lot hard to get).

I wish they'd just go to a sub and let the "gets" in the game come from game play and success in that.

I actually really enjoy some occasional arena PvP. I would really love to see gladiatorial arenas as settlement structures. I just realize Open a World PvP cannot be Arena PvP and Arena PvP cannot be Open World PvP.

Any FFA hexes are clearly more dangerous Open World PvP areas. Comparing them to Arena PvP is just a tactic to manipulate people's opinions using buzz words.

Shouldn't that be what tournaments are for? And that can be done anywhere, right?

Amaranthar wrote:

But I don't expect the same issues since PFO has some things in it already. I'm just trying to point out that these sorts of players live to grief and win in any way possible. I want people here to understand what this type is like so this game can be free of anti-social activity of that nature.

I'm afraid no multiplayer game will ever be truly free in the way you aspire. I empathize, but expect human beings to be all too human.

I just don't want a system that can be abused. Because as soon as it can be, it will be WIDELY abused.

That sounds like a problem in selecting where to farm/gather. I find it hard to believe all locations were constantly camped by PKs, probably just the more desirable ones. But that's part of the point of these kind of games. If someone is camping the desirable locations rather than sitting back and doing nothing you could:

A. Bring a group powerful enough to fight off the PKs to farm the dungeon.
B. Have someone scout the exit before you try to leave and call in friendly reinforcements if needed.
C. Align yourself with a friendly group that will protect the dungeon area from PKs.
D. Form a group that will do that yourself.

Conflict is the content so don't just sit there and pretend to be helpless.

They not only camped the best locations, they ran in bands all around cities so players had to run the gauntlet to get in or out. They ran the entire map looking for players to PK and loot. They were like piranha with the scent of blood.

We often organized quick armies to clear them out, but they came right back. Players just got tired of it all the time.

But I don't expect the same issues since PFO has some things in it already. I'm just trying to point out that these sorts of players live to grief and win in any way possible. I want people here to understand what this type is like so this game can be free of anti-social activity of that nature.

Amaranthar wrote:

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

Audoucet wrote:

Three hours harvesting, and then, a guy comes out from nowhere, and kill you. You just played three hours for nothing.

Seems pretty meaningful to me...

First rule of loot drop MMOs. Always bank what you can't afford to lose. Quite frankly if you've been doing three hours of anything that generates loot without banking you're being a complete fool.

People harvesting mithril and addy should be above such basic mistakes.

That's not much of an answer though. Everybody tried that in another game in the early days of MMOs and the PKers, who are nothing if not quite adaptable, would let others do all the gathering they wanted and then waylay them on the way to the bank. More efficient that way.

Funny. I've played such games and I easily made it back to the bank/station 95%+ of the time. And in those games the consequences for killing you were zilch.

That probably depends on some factors. The game I was talking about was UO in the early days before most players had the recall (teleport) spell to instantly make a bank run. PKers would litterally stand at dungeon entrances and say "hi" as you went in, and kill you on the way out. lol. (and there always seemed to be more on the way out than in. Same along the route to and from dungeons and places of interest.

How big are hexes? Would it be feasible to require a tower of some sort built on it first? Or some sort of encampment? Assuming the hex has no other controls on it, PC or NPC?

I think I like the idea, but I'm not sure yet.

Audoucet wrote:

Three hours harvesting, and then, a guy comes out from nowhere, and kill you. You just played three hours for nothing.

Seems pretty meaningful to me...

First rule of loot drop MMOs. Always bank what you can't afford to lose. Quite frankly if you've been doing three hours of anything that generates loot without banking you're being a complete fool.

People harvesting mithril and addy should be above such basic mistakes.

That's not much of an answer though. Everybody tried that in another game in the early days of MMOs and the PKers, who are nothing if not quite adaptable, would let others do all the gathering they wanted and then waylay them on the way to the bank. More efficient that way.

Amaranthar wrote:

Aet Areks Kel'Goran wrote:

Amaranthar wrote:

Areks wrote:

My apologies for being so short.

I am not trying to say FFA is "fair".

That is a blanket and vague statement that does not summarize the points I promote.

I am saying the reputation system should account for variables.

Where the most valuable materials are concerned, I think penalties should be lessened. That does not equal to FFA.

One can say, "Yeah, well almost." Almost isn't FFA.

I'd also like to point out that I am in favor of it working in the opposite direction.

If you need random root and T1 hex and you get killed while harvesting it, those penalties should be stiffer because the act was even more senseless.

Considering all this, I hardly think that quantifies as me saying "FFA is fair", hence me saying you aren't paying attention.

Ok, but I have to disagree with your opinion here. In both cases of the value of what's in possession of a character, the game should not want to make it any less "antisocial" to kill and rob them. It's bad to allow such actions without consequence in any case, because by doing so the game tells players to go ahead and do it.

If that is your stance, why does the game make it less detrimental to kill a player with lower rep?

Regardless of what someone possesses killing them should have the same impact right? So if value doesn't matter, why does it matter when it comes to reputation? Why does it inflict more detrement on you if you kill a +2500 rep character than a -250 rep character?

The design of the game has already told us that values do matter. Low rep characters' lives are worth less than high rep characters. That's already been established.

And I see a problem with that. Just as with "Newbie Ganking".

What exactly do you see a problem with? Cause reading that, it seems like you want killing players to be a static REP hit no matter who it is, regardless of their and your reputation.......

I don't see any way around having having the same hit in this part of it regardless of rep. However, the reputation system still seems valuable in the social penalties for the...what would it be? Faction/guild/city/you know what I mean to say.

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

Amaranthar wrote:

...good characters out to kill the bad ones...

Oh lord, I'd missed your implication. You mean using an Evil alt as a temp-mule to transfer 75% of whatever it's carrying to its Good counterpart?

That's frighteningly inspired, if a lot of work and a hefty overhead.

It wouldn't be hard at all, just some basic "be here and do this". The rewards for top end resources will make it very enticing. Especially to gamers who sell game items for real money.

Replying here for the background...

One way to make this much less likely would be to have an instant stat/skill penalty to attackers who die in the attempt (edit: permanent but recoverable). That would allow the "crime" (for realism's sake) but give risk to the "criminals". Warfare is another matter, of course. They have already stated they will have flags, so it wouldn't be too much added coding to attach to the flags.

@Jazzlvraz, Amaranthar, Losing 25% of the star metal with each such transfer makes me a little queasy.

As opposed to not having any? What would the takers have to lose?

Amaranthar wrote:

Areks wrote:

My apologies for being so short.

I am not trying to say FFA is "fair".

That is a blanket and vague statement that does not summarize the points I promote.

I am saying the reputation system should account for variables.

Where the most valuable materials are concerned, I think penalties should be lessened. That does not equal to FFA.

One can say, "Yeah, well almost." Almost isn't FFA.

I'd also like to point out that I am in favor of it working in the opposite direction.

If you need random root and T1 hex and you get killed while harvesting it, those penalties should be stiffer because the act was even more senseless.

Considering all this, I hardly think that quantifies as me saying "FFA is fair", hence me saying you aren't paying attention.

Ok, but I have to disagree with your opinion here. In both cases of the value of what's in possession of a character, the game should not want to make it any less "antisocial" to kill and rob them. It's bad to allow such actions without consequence in any case, because by doing so the game tells players to go ahead and do it.

If that is your stance, why does the game make it less detrimental to kill a player with lower rep?

Regardless of what someone possesses killing them should have the same impact right? So if value doesn't matter, why does it matter when it comes to reputation? Why does it inflict more detrement on you if you kill a +2500 rep character than a -250 rep character?

The design of the game has already told us that values do matter. Low rep characters' lives are worth less than high rep characters. That's already been established.

And I see a problem with that. Just as with "Newbie Ganking".

Amaranthar wrote:

...good characters out to kill the bad ones...

Oh lord, I'd missed your implication. You mean using an Evil alt as a temp-mule to transfer 75% of whatever it's carrying to its Good counterpart?

That's frighteningly inspired, if a lot of work and a hefty overhead.

It wouldn't be hard at all, just some basic "be here and do this". The rewards for top end resources will make it very enticing. Especially to gamers who sell game items for real money.

Amaranthar wrote:

...simply dropping the loot off...

Ryan's said

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Trading directly with CE characters could be considered a chaotic and evil act. So doing a direct character-to-character transfer could rapidly degrade the alignment of your non-CE character.

It's hard to believe he'd allow us to avoid that effect through something as straight-forward as dropping items and having them picked up.

Hence my comment on getting your good characters out to kill the bad ones as a workaround to pass the loot along.

Amaranthar wrote:

Aet Areks Kel'Goran wrote:

Amaranthar wrote:

That's not how it works.

First of all, it's hard to get players to stand around playing guard on a consistent basis.

Secondly, players looking to run off with the work of other players just adapt to whatever the situation is. They organize, scout the situation, and show up with the advantage needed. Otherwise they don't attack.

It's a formula that's played out since the early days of MMOs.
And so is this conversation in which you attempt to say how "fair" FFA is.

Again, someone isn't paying attention.

I thought I was. Care to explain?

My apologies for being so short.

I am not trying to say FFA is "fair".

That is a blanket and vague statement that does not summarize the points I promote.

I am saying the reputation system should account for variables.

Where the most valuable materials are concerned, I think penalties should be lessened. That does not equal to FFA.

One can say, "Yeah, well almost." Almost isn't FFA.

I'd also like to point out that I am in favor of it working in the opposite direction.

If you need random root and T1 hex and you get killed while harvesting it, those penalties should be stiffer because the act was even more senseless.

Considering all this, I hardly think that quantifies as me saying "FFA is fair", hence me saying you aren't paying attention.

Ok, but I have to disagree with your opinion here. In both cases of the value of what's in possession of a character, the game should not want to make it any less "antisocial" to kill and rob them. It's bad to allow such actions without consequence in any case, because by doing so the game tells players to go ahead and do it.

The thing is, even reputation won't stop many players from killing and taking the riches with one of their characters. As an organized group they can pass along those riches (to themselves) even if it means having half their numbers jump on good characters and letting them kill the the bad half. Or simply dropping the loot off, if that's allowed (and I wouldn't like to see a Sandbox game not allow dropping stuff).

Amaranthar wrote:

That's not how it works.

First of all, it's hard to get players to stand around playing guard on a consistent basis.

Secondly, players looking to run off with the work of other players just adapt to whatever the situation is. They organize, scout the situation, and show up with the advantage needed. Otherwise they don't attack.

It's a formula that's played out since the early days of MMOs.
And so is this conversation in which you attempt to say how "fair" FFA is.

Again, someone isn't paying attention.

I thought I was. Care to explain?

Audoucet wrote:

Three hours harvesting, and then, a guy comes out from nowhere, and kill you. You just played three hours for nothing.

Seems pretty meaningful to me...

Indeed. The guy that killed the harvester made a very meaningful choice. I completely agree.

The harvester should have ran. Or had guards. Read the beginning of this thread where I used this same example.

The harvester dying is a result of not making meaningful choices. Hiring guards, having a pick up schedule, not going out alone, scouting the area... all meaningful choices. Dying because you failed to coordinate, plan, and execute is not meaningful. Dying after doing those things, because you failed in some but not all, is not meaningless. Its a learning experience. Dying because you didn't do any of those is not meaningful, its ignorance and the event hopefully will enlightn you.

That's not how it works.

First of all, it's hard to get players to stand around playing guard on a consistent basis.

Secondly, players looking to run off with the work of other players just adapt to whatever the situation is. They organize, scout the situation, and show up with the advantage needed. Otherwise they don't attack.

It's a formula that's played out since the early days of MMOs.
And so is this conversation in which you attempt to say how "fair" FFA is.

Whenever you have FFA you invariably end up with lots of ganking. I understand the excitement and all, but I just don't want it.

I had enough of that in UO where I watched players that ganked other players have houses full of goodies while I and others like me who didn't practice the fine art of scouting-for-advantaged-ganks struggled to achieve.

I like PvP, but it becomes unbalanced in the PKer's favor. That's just not worth it to most others.

It was my understanding that this is the reason badlands hex existed. To add content later.

One hex? Has there been any statements about expanding the borders?

The Emerald Spire is rumored to have been built (or occupied, or conquered) by people from Azlant, one of the first known human civilizations. There could certainly be mysterious runes inscribed on the ruins around the spire, or in whatever dungeon levels might exist below it.

There are also rumors of pre-human Cyclops ruins in the darkest corners of the River Kingdoms. Remnants of their written language might linger here and there in the Echo Woods.

(I agree that it would be fun to find mysterious writings in PFO. We might have to wait a while, though.)

So then the next thought would be how to add this kind of thing to the game. Things like piles of rubble that shift away from walls revealing carved runes, or walls collapsing revealing a small room with such scribblings, or maybe concealing magics finally being defeated by newly discovered dispell magics? Earthquakes, world-wide quest discoveries, floods washing away banks of earth, etc.?

I've no idea whether this is the best source, but there appear to be several dead languages, and a pile of un-dead ones :-).

Oh yeah. There's some real potential in that.

"Words and symbols in Ancient Osiriani can also have many more meanings than the modern language."

And

"Scholars remember it chiefly as the first language to develop three grammatical genders and for using a complex alphabet made up of three separate runic systems."

That's the sort of thing that can add mystery and investigation in to game play.

Just another question. I know I can find this on my own as I look, but are there ancient lost languages or runes in Pathfinder?

(SNIP)

4. Not sure but some people are lobbying for the devs to implement player created books and scrolls and intend to focus their activities towards gathering information, writing lore and "the history" of the game as it evolves and so on. The Seventh Veil is the most prominent group doing so I think.

Welcome, hope you stick around!

I wanted to go back to this and give some ideas here.

I love the idea of player created books. That gives an in-game outlet of player supplied information. Another thing I'd like to see is information contained in carvings, reliefs, and painted things in dungeons and ruins. Items "locked" in place in the explorations of the world that can be referred to in such player made books and scrolls. Of course on web sites images can be displayed too. I just feel like having things in the world that mean something really fleshes out a world. Especially if there can be different interpretations and going to explore the area might lead to new thoughts, new discoveries.

Amaranthar wrote:

Banesama wrote:

To get into Alpha you would need $1000. To get into Early Enrollment, it is only $100. MVP will be what starts in EE which is expected to last 1.5 to 2 years with Crowdforging throughout.

Just to be clear, so I can be involved in the Crowdforging with the $100 EE?

That gets you in and maybe couple months. Expect something like $15 per month on going play and experience.

THERE WILL BE ON GOING COSTS TO PLAY.

There is electric to pay. There is internet to pay. There are developers (and testers and QA, and tech writers and ...) to pay. There is customer service people to pay. And there is business services (administrators, pay roll, business office, metrics office, advertisers/outreach) to pay. These are costs of running a business.

So after initial time (2 months?) there there will be be by month cost ( or by year).

That's fine with me. I can handle a monthly sub, just not a big outlay at the moment.

Fantastic.

To get into Alpha you would need $1000. To get into Early Enrollment, it is only $100. MVP will be what starts in EE which is expected to last 1.5 to 2 years with Crowdforging throughout.

Just to be clear, so I can be involved in the Crowdforging with the $100 EE?

Amaranthar wrote:

Can you pick up items of lore and place them in a museum?

Ryan's starting with what he terms "Minimum Viable Product", or MVP. The first things in the game will be those required to actually *have* a game, and all else will follow.

Crowdforging is the next closely-associated concept. We, the players, will be instrumental in deciding what features appear when, and how they work. Not all decisions will be made by us, of course, but we're going to be "designing" Pathfinder Online to an extent not yet seen in a preceding game.

I'd need to come up with $1,000 to get in that, right? I'm retired and unfortunately fallen on hard times in my retirement portfolio so I have to get that set better first. I'm hopeful though (I did have a securities license in the past, it's not like I don't know what I'm doing.)

Edit to add: I understand that these guys have to build from the ground up. I'm really looking for their ultimate goals and concepts, so I have an idea of what they want to end up with.

- Ryan's said that the power-curve's going to be notably flatter than in other games. As examples, he wants a brand-new character to have a chance to escape from an experienced one, if the former has the presence of mind to start running right away; he wants there to be few or no one-hit-kills; he wants an experienced character to be in danger from only three or four new ones, rather than being able to shrug off a zerg.

- Zoning, in Alpha, has a momentary lag that several folks have commented on, but we have every reason to expect that to disappear; Ryan wants there to be no equivalent of EVE's gates, so zone-crossing should be un-noticeable.

- I admit up front this last point will look self-serving. Please consider checking out The Seventh Veil; we're focused on knowledge, lore, mysteries, and exploration of the game in- and out-of-character, and our goal is to build, in Phaeros, the game's first University Town.

This is of interest to me, I'll check out your site when I get some time. I like the idea of a university town a lot. I'd be equally interested in a university/library quarter in a larger city.

Can you pick up items of lore and place them in a museum? In UO there was a museum made by a player, and other players actually entrusted him with their rare collections of items from events, and UO's great "Rares" of one-off and "just a few" items for display. Of course, that player was well known and trusted in the first place.

As far as lore goes, the escalations Bob Settles is working on are from the local story background...Razmiran cultists, Bonechewer Goblins (I think that's the clan) among others. As the game expands there should be more escalations that tie into Pathfinder the River Kingdoms lore (which is a really good thing, as Golarion is super rich with story, background and lore and it would be a real shame not to take advantage of it).

Is there any mystery involved that could make for game play in a research sort of way? Such as knowledge of artifacts that can be used for other purposes, weaknesses, resources hidden away or rarely found, anything like that? Secrets to discover?

Settlement (player-run town) interactions will include trade, alliances, conquest, and destruction. Settlements aren't intended to be self-sufficient, so they'll have to deal with each other one way or another.

Yes! I've read some on that. This is one of the big things I've looked for in an MMO. How are these caravans done?

I played Ultima Online for years. I loved the game, but the grief was too much and without proper persuasions against it. That was the first thing I looked for with PO, and I am very happy with their choices. I'm sure they will need to refine it, but it looks like a viable answer to grief, yet allows for play that should be allowed in a "world". The community penalty is big, as it makes a social outcast in action an outcast in-game.

So, the zoning is like UO then? You just walk across terrain? (UO had issues at first too, but smoothed it out nicely.)

UO brings up another question. I always loved that my mouse cursor was like my hands in-game, and my eyes to look at things (clicking on an item gave a description, double clicking caused any reaction is "using" the item. How is it in PO?

First off, this game does seem to have promise. Sort of an expanded Eve in fantasy, with "boots on the ground" too. I like good PvP and have been looking for meaningful play in that regard, which this game seems to have a good grasp of. But on to my questions.

One of the things I always consider is the power gaps in "levels" of characters, since I don't think you can have a real good Sandbox if they are extreme (which is subjective). What I worry about here is the special attacks a character learns. Is that the primary way power gaps occur? And how is it, compared to the typical Themepark design?

How do you zone between hexes? Does it feel like not "zoning", in a gamey way?

How extensive will the PvE and lore game play be? I know it's early, I'm looking for the concept more than what's in at this point. And related to that, is the plan to have antagonists of old lore come back to destroy the world and that sort of thing? Will there be mystery and discovery involved?

One of the things I would love to be a part of is a grand depository of knowledge. A library/research center with members that seek out such things and documents them, seeks artifacts, and the like. Is that viable in this game?

I've done some reading, have lots more to do. I was hoping I could get some insight at this point and thanks.