Akari - #220489's page

^Talking about the Scaled Fist Archetype (and seeing that your guide don't have a multi-classing section); it works wonder as a dip for Iroran Paladin (and no, I'm not referring about the CHA stacking armor bonuses, that is a debate for another time).

For 1 level dip you get your CHA to stunning fist DC, flurry of blows and bonus feat... and it can be Dragon style (and stunning fist open the path for the full chain if wanted).

For 2 level dip you get evasion (your reflex saves are so-so thanks to CHA to saves) and a second feat. A second dip would be pushing too hard but depending on the campaign, evasion might be worth its salt, and dodge might be good as the second free feat.

On the other hand, if you can afford a 2 dip level in Iroran paladin as a Scaled Fist monk you boost your two good saves to ridiculous levels while not losing your will saves, a not so restrictive conduct code (even thematically in some sense) and wands from the paladin list if that worth something... and once a day trial that might or might not be useful. Ok, that does not look too good.

And I guess the "pro-stacking" side argue that what the Paladin is doing is "breaking" a general rule of calculating your Dex bonus to armor class by applying a specific rule and, therefore, the AC "formula" is still the same.

Usual way to calculate your Dex bonus is:
- Dex_bonus= Dex_modifier

With the specific rule would be:
- Dex_bonus= Dex_modifier + Cha_modifier(up to Paladin level)

And the AC formula would still be the same

Usual way
- AC=10 + Dex_bonus + other_modifiers(Cha_bonus)
After specific rule
- AC=10 + Dex_bonus + other_modifiers(Cha_bonus)

That is tricky!!! But I guess that the argument favors the stacking side since the Paladin rule specify a new way of calculating your Dex_bonus (nothing more and nothing else).

So, if I want to play in PFS the best would be play safe and, until a FAQ is done, not making this build. :S

Both ultimately have Cha going to AC as type Cha.

So, if something says that you can add your CHA as deflection AC it would not stack because, at the end, you are adding as type Cha?

And I thought I've already grasped the idea of stacking in pathfinder. :(

Aren't they applying two different types of AC, one is a bonus to the dexterity AC and the other is an charisma bonus to the AC?

Both archetypes are applying the bonus to different types of AC, aren't they?

Something like AC = 10 + Dex_bonus(DEX+CHA) + CHA_bonus + ...

Am I missing something?

-Akari

(This would depend on the age of the kid, a small one might have a lot of troubles with this, but if he can play Pathfinder without much problems I suggest this)

If he loves super heroes with hidden identities a streamlined vigilante is as good as the fighter, if not more. The social part might give some troubles, but that would depend on the campaign. A more heavy combat campaign would be the best, since he may have the chance to play the super hero alter-ego in the few social interactions without being a burden

Make the social and vigilante share the same alignment.

Choose the avenger specialization... this will give him almost as many feats as the Fighter, full BAB and better saves.

Good social skills that don't require much tracking (and are a lot of fun):

Feign Innocence
Mockingbird
Quick Change
Social Grace
Intrigue Feats (e.g. street smarts)

It may seem complicated at first, dealing with two identities, but is something so cliched in almost any super hero comic/series/movie that every kid would understand.

As an archer he'll be a bit feat starved but wildsoul archetype (Arachnid or Falconine) may be a lot of fun (spiderman or hawkeye anyone?)

-I forgot to add that I have a very strict DM so as of now no form of home brew is allowed.

As far as I can tell, non of the mentioned classes are home-brewed. Now that you touch that your GM is strict, what other limitations does he have? No archetypes? only core books? etc.

If being a druid is not necessarily a must hunter is a great class. You become a combat team with your animal companion.

And if you don't mind a bit of multi-classing:

1- level of Swashbuckler Inspired blade (for easy DEX to damage at level 1 with fencing grace, you can even use a buckler)
1- level of brawler snakebite striker for 1d6 sneak attack

and hunter all the way.

Feats: at level 3 boon companion for not losing those 2 levels of animal companion, level 5 accomplished sneak attacker for an extra 1d6.

With outflank and pack flanking you would be doing: weapon damage + DEX + 2D6 per attack. with good accuracy.

Not a fan of multi-classing too much, but not mind a dip, just take the brawler, use the classical dervish dance for dex to damage, get the accomplished sneak attacker feat later and get the same result)

Torbyne wrote:

Is hurtful PFS legal? Cornugon Smash is an option for STR investigators here.

Unfortunately no.

That is bad. What about the one of these -> Enforcer, Dazzling Display and shatter defense?

Some of those feel pretty sweet if you have some feats to burn, particular enforcer (which I could not find if it was illegal)

You can also be very mean with your words:

bruising intellect(INT instead of CHA to intimidate) + your intellect plus + skills + Underworld Inspiration (free 1d6 to the cause)

Put a skill focus (intimidate) to add a bit of help.

And if any of these things are PFS legal and have some feats to burn:

- weapon focus, Dazzling Display a 30ft AOE of mean words to your enemy
- Enforcer (hit with a non letal attack and get a free intimidate)
- Intimidating Prowess feat add your STR to the roll (conditions may apply)

Add 1 level of rogue (Thug) for a 1 round frightened condition for any demoralized enemy that you hit.

A good way to use those mean words of yours.

EDITED:
If you go with the half elf option that was mentioned it also add +1 on the intimidation roll every 4 levels, I guess.

If it is not a PFS game you could try the psychic mini-Fox of "terror"; basically a Kitsune with the Superior Shapeshifter optional race trait and a psychic or any other psy class.

Basically you are tiny fox with a powerful mind. If your GM is very lenient he can even let you have a form of "message" like the cantrip but that works with your mind, not with words.

So sounds like the whole build needs re-tuned:

Superior Shapeshifter
Dirty Trick Master
Unchained Monk Maneuver Master

Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes in that one, even though I double checked the additional resources. Any way, I re-build it. I changed the feeling of the fluff a bit (he is no longer a martial artist but a witty duelist a la Kitsune style) and balanced the beginning so it would not be hard (at least not comparison with the first one). The fluff is still a trickster focus on dirty maneuvers and quick with his mind. Therefore I "divided" his growth in two parts, he first learnt how to be effective with the tricks and later with his mind (in and out of combat, thus the master mind investigator)

From the optimized point of view is far for being optimized: I could have stuck with the slayer for extra sneak attack damage and conserve my BAB (3d6 + Accomplished Sneak attacker for an extra 1d6) and get some slayer's goodies while I'm there. On the other hand, the investigator added a very needed dose of Will saves, some minor buffs and a bit of social skills even with his low CHA.

Thanks to everyone for the information and pointing out my errors.

Without the master of many styles monk the build is not feasible from the fluff and style perspective. The fluff I wanted was a Kitsune martial artist focused on a very kitsune way of fighting; smarty, feinting with witty tricks and deadly dirty. The fox stance was great for it, it pushed INT and made very good use of it. The kitsune style was the deadly dirty part...

I know that if I focus on one aspect I can make it works and would be much better and sooner. I also got very good ideas for the second iteration and I hope not to make so many mistakes.

- Akari

Thank you very much,

Damn, I just realized that Superior Shapeshifter is not legal in PFS, I have to fix the build. Your build is extremely nice, I see why you told me about the vexing dodger, totally worth it that way. Anything is way larger than you.

hahaha seems cool, I would love to see the build, it seems very interesting, maybe even more than mine (I love the idea of a "that tiny fox is deadlier that a dragon" thing). On the same page I was thinking on doing a mind controller Mr Fox with a seeker sorcerer psychic bloodline before this built, but I read that the bloodline was a big trap in PFS.

Hey, thanks :D

I see what you are saying and I agree. Would you mind to expand about vexing dodger? For what I read it seems a bit restrictive and somehow redundant for the build:

(1) Limb-Climber at rogue 1 seems very good VS larger than me creatures. But I have very few sneak attack dice, it would be -2 until 10, where it would be a -3. But I don't know what would happen if I fail the Climb check... do I just won't climb the creature (and fall as per the climb rules), fall prone or just miss my action? If is the first one the reward vs the risk worth it completely, but if is any of the later the risk seems a bit higher for a small bonus on the long run.

(2) Improved Dirty Trick (IDT) is redundant, as I need expertise (I think) to qualify for Kitsune style and its line, and the IDT line of feats.

(3) Underfoot Trickster movement is also very nice against very large creatures, but I don't know how often that would be useful. The problem I see is that the other effect, giving up a sneak attack for a swift dirty attack, at level 5 (rogue 4) speed up the progression but at 7 would lose complete meaning because of the slayer bounty hunter level 2 feature: free dirty trick + sneak dice to CMB.

With Kitsune trickster I would gain a flat 4 to 6 INT bonus to Bluff (good for feint, a main part of the build) and to Sense motive, while offsetting my low CHA in social interactions (as if it were important in PFS in general, LoL) without losing Uncanny Dodge (for what it worth). I don't know how much mileage those 4-6 INT bonus would really worth VS (1) and the movement part of (3).

Would you mind to explain me what are the consequences for failing in this climb check (are the same as with any climb check?), and any other thing that I am missing from this archetype?

Many thanks,
Akari

Hi,

What do you think of this kind of build for PFS? The idea is to be a "martial artist" that focus on debuffing the enemies 'a la kitsune'; feints and dirty play galore. The idea is to use furry of blows to deliver a feint while doing a bit of damage while, at the same time, using the slayer bounty hunter sneak attack for free dirty tricks + extra CMB d6.

Kitsune (Keen Kitsune, Superior Shapeshifter)
traits (reactionary, student of philosophy)

As far as I can tell everything is legal, but if I made a mistake feel free to point it out.

The feint, if my calcs doesn't fail me, would be +8 before ranks and bluff bonuses at 12 : -2 CHA + 4 Fox Style + 6 (bonus INT to CHA kitsune trickster archetype and +4 int bandanna)

CMB for Dirty trick would be + 35 : +11 BAB + 9 DEX (+4 dex belt +4 mutagen) + 4 feat bonuses + 1 studied target + 10 (~3d6 average, bounty hunter).

The AC is not bad too +18 +ring/s (don't know which one would be good): +9 DEX, + 3 WIS (+4 WIS - 1 Mutagen) + 2 natural armor (mutagen) + 4 bracer of armor.

And for the debuff it would have two folds, from the dirty tricks and from the sneak attack at 4, so I think is kinda solid. So, what do you think? Would this work in PFS and not being a drag? The theme is something that I like personally, but I don't know if it would be well received or is too weak for a debuff martial artist at all.

- Akari