Ultimate Combat Preview #1

Uhmm... Where's the Hound Master archetype for Cavaliers???

We've been dreaming and begging for that since we first saw it.

WE WANTS IT !!!

It's quite possible that one of the other Cav archetypes swaps out their mounted charge etc. class features for things that would make more flavorful sense for that archetype.

Infact, I'd be willing to bet money that the gendarme might just be that archetype. Gendarme are military police that are used to police civilian populations, and having the dude get a K-9 to follow him around while having bonuses to things that make a cop's job easier would make a lot of sense.

Jiggy wrote:

Wait... what exactly is meant by "alternate" classes (samurai and ninja)? Is that different than a normal class or archetype?

Anyone?

Alternate classes are based on another class, and you can't take levels in the original class and the alternate class - in this instance, ninja are based on rogues, and samurai are based on cavaliers. So, for example, a character could not have levels in both ninja and rogue, or samurai and cavalier. Think of alternate classes as super-extended and explained archetypes.

*nerdgasm* :D

Jiggy wrote:

Wait... what exactly is meant by "alternate" classes (samurai and ninja)? Is that different than a normal class or archetype?

Anyone?

It's an archetype which replaces virtually all of the base class's features. The Anti-paladin is an alternate class of the paladin.

Jiggy wrote:

Wait... what exactly is meant by "alternate" classes (samurai and ninja)? Is that different than a normal class or archetype?

Anyone?

See the Anti-Paladin for an example of an alternate class.

Edit: Ninja'd twice over. Phooey.

Ah, I see now. Thanks everyone!

And those sound AWESOME!

Looks promising, except...

Somehow the Hound Master isn't on the list, and the Ninja's listed as an alternate class...

I expect Paizo to fix those mistakes immediately ;-)

Jiggy wrote:

Wait... what exactly is meant by "alternate" classes (samurai and ninja)? Is that different than a normal class or archetype?

Anyone?

Think of them as alternate class features, but are so extensive that they are considered almost unique sub-classes.

However, they're not unique enough to warrant being a full brand new base-class because they directly replicate enough features of another class that it ain't worth it.

For those interested, the Maneuver Master archetype stacks with the following other monk Archetypes:

• Monk of the Four Winds
  
• Qinggong Monk (Depending on abilities replaced)
  
• Weapon Adept

For those interested, the Maneuver Master archetype stacks with the following other monk Archetypes:

• Monk of the Four Winds
  
• Qinggong Monk (Depending on abilities replaced)
  
• Weapon Adept

Wow. You realize if you do that with Weapon Master...that's just sicker than sick.

But I'm excited about the new weapon group: kinda snuck in there on the bottom:

Siege Engines: all siege engines**

A fighter who specializes in really big weapons of city destruction :D

Does anyone else find it amusing that there are going to be more Wizard archetypes in Ultimate Combat then there were in Ultimate Magic?

Panzer Dragoon!

What is the meaning of this post?

I love those games. What made you say this about the blog post?

But I'm excited about the new weapon group: kinda snuck in there on the bottom:

blog post wrote:

Siege Engines: all siege engines**

A fighter who specializes in really big weapons of city destruction :D

I'm guessing that's a 2-handed weapon?

Cool nice preview too bad I have to go to work in like 5 min after I found it.

Mok wrote:

The artwork is... a bit too anime for me, in fact it just seems to be your typical mecha suit recolored and detailed for a fantasy setting.

Please note that it is just one art preview of the book...there's a lot more new art in Ultimate Combat that might be more to your tastes!

Aw come on. Am I the only one who's happy to see the Eagle Knight from the Gazzeteer/Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting's younger sister?

Crapload of weapons.. Monk with Greater Maneuvers and Maneuver-related class features...

VERY interesting (I'm nevertheless ambivalent on the losing of FoB, but a lot of combos are in my mind :D ).

As much as I go on about sorcerer's I'm not worried about them here -- after all this is ultimate combat, I'm not expecting too much for them in it.

I dunno. If you can justify wizard stuff, I don't see why you can't justify sorcerer stuff. Wizards could do with a humbling for a change.

But that aside, it looks like some really interesting archetypes. Looking forward to studying them in detail!

As much as I go on about sorcerer's I'm not worried about them here -- after all this is ultimate combat, I'm not expecting too much for them in it.

The archetype selection looks rather impressive to me, and interesting as well. The maneuver master as presented is certainly something I would consider playing and the idea of mixing grappling with other maneuvers has my mind doing laps right now.

I am not at liberty to reveal secrets, but I will suggest that the maneuver master is not the only thing in this book that could allow 'crossing the streams.' Be excited! It'll be AWESOME! :)

Usually I have a negative point I want to go over when I post on the blogs but today I do not.

Yay for positivity!

*Crossing all fingers and body parts for the gunslinger or monk variant, Pathfinder's grammaton ecclesiast*

Liz Courts wrote:

Gun Mage is the spellslinger archetype, under wizard.

Dragoon is delicious...I'm havin' flashbacks to Kain in Final Fantasy IV! Squee!

Don't want to be all rainin' on your parade, but I'm pretty sure they're reffering to the horse-riding type of dragoons and not the jumping-with-a-spear type.

Are those two things mutually exclusive?

finally my luchadore monk dream can become a reality and a unarmored fighter archetype also! comenayaaahaaaa

*Crossing all fingers and body parts for the gunslinger or monk variant, Pathfinder's grammaton ecclesiast*

Holy Gun archetype, listed under paladin?

Crapload of weapons.. Monk with Greater Maneuvers and Maneuver-related class features...

I'll have to dig up the impassioned defense of "monks aren't supposed to get Greater maneuver feats as bonus feats and that's a good thing".

;-)

Maybe Hound Master is actually Strategist or Luring Cavalier?

*fingers crossed*

Boomer there aren't archetypes for the alternate classes. It would have been cool for the ninja, samurai and anti-paladin to have some archetypes for themselves, but I think with a bit of extrapolation you could adapt some of the parent class' archetype to their alters. I wanted a yojimbooooo!!!

I really don't like some things in that weapon list. I see some weapons there that I really wonder why they're there.

Bo staff? How, mechanically, does it differ from a quarterstaff? How in reality does it differ?

According to wikipedia a quarterstaff is a 6-9 foot piece of hardwood. According to the same source a bo is a 1.82m piece of hardwood. That's 5' 11.7".

The bo fall outside the quarterstaff definition by less than a third of an inch.

The gladius is another dubious weapon not really any different from any other straight shortsword.

The naginata is a slightly shorter glaive with 2 meters as about the maximum length rather than the minimum.

These look like they're just attempts to make weapon focus weaker.

Overall a GREAT preview! However...

Aklys? Is this the club or javelin variety? There are two aklys in history.
Amentum? It's just a shortspear!
Bo Staff? Meet the quarterstff!
Butterfly Sword? Easily represented by a punching dagger!
Cestus? Functionally just a gauntlet!
Dan Bong? Statistically a nunchaku!
Double Walking Stick Katana? Paired short swords in one sheath!
Emei Piercer? Represented by punching dagger stats!
Gladius? Just another short sword!
Kerambit? Sickle!
Katana? A bastard sword!
Madu? A fancy spiked shield!
Mattock? It's just a pick!
Mere Club? A club or mace!
Nine-ring Broadsword? Looks like a falchion to me!
Nodachi? Greatsword.
Pata? It's a spiked gauntlet!
Quadrens? What the hell is a quadren?
Sibat? Shortspear!
Taiaha? It's a spear!
Tekko-kagi? Spiked gauntlet!
Tetsubo? Great club!
Tiger Fork? It's a freakin' trident!
Tonfa? Club!
Tri-point Double-edged Sword? Represented by halberd stats!
Wahaika? Club!
Wakizashi? Yet another short sword!

I am really disappointed in the new weapons. As you can clearly see, most already exist within the rules.

There are very few weapons that are actually "new." Those new weapons not shown on the list above either cannot be easily represented by existing core weapons, or I couldn't find any research data on them.

It's lose lose either way: On one-hand, we end up with a bunch of weapon equivalencies, which are essentially a waste of page space. On the other hand, the developers go out of their way to make them different somehow--developing unneeded (and possibly imbalanced) rules for them when balance could have simply been maintained by changing flavor and using existing weapon stats.

EDIT: Ninja'd by ONE second!?

First off, finally, previews!

Second, boo! No prestige classes in this one?

Third, I have finally made my decision on archetypes. I'm changing them to Alternate Class features so my players can "cherry pick".

Why? Because the Maneuver Master 1st level ability is perfect for my friend's grappling monk, but he thinks it's stupid to lose out on purity of body, diamond body, and some others just for ONE ability.

Archetypes do not allow room for customizing and it has turned off a number of my players because of that.

Can you folks at Paizo meet halfway? How about offering a feat that allows you to take one ability from another archetype? (with prereqs obviously being of the same class level as the feature you want). A feat cost sounds reasonable to me.

Can you folks at Paizo meet halfway? How about offering a feat that allows you to take one ability from another archetype? (with prereqs obviously being of the same class level as the feature you want). A feat cost sounds reasonable to me.

I understand your concern, but note that not all class features are created equal and in some cases we balance at different points, so that you might be trading a weaker at one point for a more powerful one later, etc.

That said.. its your game and you can certainly allow that with GM oversight.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I am really disappointed in the new weapons. As you can clearly see, most already exist within the rules.

We had a similar discussion in house, but in the end, we decided to go with diversity. This was a precedent set by the core rules and we saw no reason to change it in this tome. Most of the weapons in UC are set off into categories meant to be introduced as a group to a campaign, probably in lieu of other groups, to prevent too much option bloat.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Overall a GREAT preview! However...

You realize that if a game makes thundering difference between pieces of sharpened metal of various size in the core rules, you might as well go full monty to keep the, what was that word, verisimilitude.

Gorbacz wrote:

Panzer Dragoon!

What is the meaning of this post?

I love those games. What made you say this about the blog post?

Because I love those games too, and I sure hope this book helps me build one.

That or a FFIV Dragoon.

*Crossing all fingers and body parts for the gunslinger or monk variant, Pathfinder's grammaton ecclesiast*

If homebrew is to acceptable take a look at this

Dan Bong?

Puts on some Bob Marley

Yo, man, why do we need to fight all the time. Let's just take a minute to watch the bard cast dancing lights and eat some funnel cake.

This has already been covered, but why does the wizard get some new archetypes and such while higher BAB classes (oracles and summoners) get left out? The iconic status, I suppose? Will there be new mysteries or evolutions in the book?

I have hope that the knight of the sepulcher will make a decent stand in for the Eberron bone knight.

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Panzer Dragoon!

What is the meaning of this post?

I love those games. What made you say this about the blog post?

Because I love those games too, and I sure hope this book helps me build one.

That or a FFIV Dragoon.

You would be better off with the beast master. The dragoon fighter archetype would deal with light cavalry related skills and a gun (probally the blunderbuss).

This has already been covered, but why does the wizard get some new archetypes and such while higher BAB classes (oracles and summoners) get left out? The iconic status, I suppose? Will there be new mysteries or evolutions in the book?

I have hope that the knight of the sepulcher will make a decent stand in for the Eberron bone knight.

We really wanted to make sure to include the "gun mage" idea in the book. Since things are laid out in two-page spreads, we came up with a few other concepts to fill the spread. Oracles and summoners did get the same treatment (and both got a good sized section in UM).

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Well this looks very interesting! I look forward to seeing what else is in the book.

Overall a GREAT preview! However...

Quadrens? What the hell is a quadren?

A roman dagger with three or four blades pointing in the same direction. Think of a dagger crossed with a trident.

See Retiarius mention of the weapon is about 2/3 down the page.

I think it would be do something like dagger damage except it would be non-throwable and be piercing only. It might get the disarm quality though.

It's on my must-buy list, now.

Hooray for buttloads of Fighter archetypes! Particularly "Unarmed Figheter"... I *really* hope that ends up being as cool as it sounds.

Also, Cavalier archetypes! It's been a long time coming, but I feel it will be worth the wait. Musketeer is the one I'll be looking foreward to the most.

It's one of the smaller lists, but I find myself really excited by the sound of the Magus options. Kensai and Myrmidarch hint at wonderful possibilities (and continue to fuel my assumption that this book is going to vastly improve a player's ability to emulate a lot of traditional JRPG concepts in Pathfinder). I have no idea what a Soul-Forger could be, and while the name "Skirnir" has my obsession with Norse mythology dancing I have no idea what it could imply mechanics-wise. My first thought, meant completely in good-natured jest, was a character who always happens to be holding on to someone else's magic item when that person really needs it.

Lastly, yay to the laundry list of Monk archetypes. While I don't have nearly the amount of Core Monk gripes that most people seem to, I do believe that can use a little bit of help moreso than the other Core classes. They also seem to me one of the classes for which archetypes are most thematically appropriate, what with such a wealth of highly iconic variations on the central theme it shoots for.

Maxximilius wrote:

*Crossing all fingers and body parts for the gunslinger or monk variant, Pathfinder's grammaton ecclesiast*

Holy Gun archetype, listed under paladin?

Makes me more feel by the name like Constantine or Hell Boy actually, instead of a armorless gun-fu or gun-kata user. But it's only a name, so I'll have to see the content by myself.

That or a FFIV Dragoon.

If it's a FFIV Dragoon, he needs the ability to leave the party. And return. And leave again.

Although I still hope for mounted infantry.

Monk: This section includes the flowing monk, maneuver master, martial artist, master of many styles, sensei, sohei, and tetori.

YES!

Now the monk can really start living up to the maneuver expert image!

Please please please let the flowing monk be what I think it is.

If it's a FFIV Dragoon, he needs the ability to leave the party. And return. And leave again.

Alignment: Choose two and flip a coin every 1d4 days.

Could someone mention if some of the new archetypes are semi-compatible with the new alternate classes? For example a samurai honor guard makes sense to me (a la yojimbo).

Oh man. Looks deliiiicious. Looks like this book is going to be a fat, full meal of awesomeness... om nom nom. Especially excited for the brawler fighter and unarmed fighter - the monk being the only decent option for fisticuffs (and stuck being ever lawful) always nixed my Road House-esque dreams. :3

I am exhausted by this mass of options.

I'm still processing the APG.

When did a gazillion options become a virtue?

Archaeologist should be fun: bonuses to academic backbiting and advanced cataloguing skills... bonus to concentration checks when using a trowel.

Maxximilius wrote:

*Crossing all fingers and body parts for the gunslinger or monk variant, Pathfinder's grammaton ecclesiast*

Holy Gun archetype, listed under paladin?

I haven't looked at the playtest gun rules, but couldn't a zen archer pretty much fill in for this? Replace bows with guns and tweak the bonus feats a bit. They were called clerics, sure, but they used gun-fu.