pathfinder monsters that aren't fun for their CR

Half of 2d4 is efficient burst damage? Against a typical 19 hp shadow you'll have to do that 7 or 8 times to kill it, typically, and that's assuming that you don't miss the actually pretty decent touch AC of 15.

8 attacks means 2 rounds of actions from a 4 PC group. It's not ideal, oils/scrolls/spells are preferable, but it's way better than dying.

Aelryinth wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

In defense of the market, the paladins might be selling at 50 gp, but the merchants are all buying them out, hauling them out to small towns where only clerics are, and selling them at 300 gp and making a sweet profit while doing so. Guaranteed money!

Or, the paladins might be selling at 300 gp and keeping the money to do good deeds instead of those TN bastard merchants.

Charging what the market will bear is the market. Nothing to do with reproductive organs at all.

==Aelryinth

I'd like to see a rules citation that says Paladins should charge more for the potions they brew just because it's on someone else's spell list.

I'd like to see the rule that says paladins have to sell for less when everyone else makes 6x the money for the same product.

I can totally see clerics of other faiths buying all their potions and wands of lesser restorations from paladins. They can buy at full markup, and sell them at their own cost to make the wands and potions, and make money.

Of course, I don't see the paladins doing that, when they could just sell the potions at 150 gp themselves, and not fund the church of Calistria.

==Aelryinth

Funny how you defend something is not possible because of the rules (even though the rules don't forbid it in any way)... Then ignore the rules when they don't support your argument.

"You can buy partially-charged wands because the CRB doesn't specifically say it's possible!"
"The rules say potions crafted by Paladins cost 50gp. But the rules don't mean anything. They cost 350 because reasons."

Those arguments are inconsistent at best and dishonest at worst.

And you, as usual, are seizing one little thing you don't like and worrying it like a dog, then blowing it up to swamp the rest of things.

Look, I'm not saying paladins don't make potions for 25 gp and won't sell them for 50 gp.

Ashiel is saying ALL LESSER RESTORE POTIONS ARE 50 GP BECAUSE PALADINS.

And I'm saying LOL WUT?

1) I'm noting that you specifically have to have potions made by paladins to sell at that price point. If no paladin potion around...300 gp, please! Meaning you HAVE TO ROLL TO SEE IF THE THING IS PALADIN MADE. Look! The assumption in the core rules is IT'S NOT.
2) It means only paladins are making the things, because to sell at that, all other casters will lose money.
3) Unless you've got a paladin sitting around with Craft Potion, the potion has to come from somewhere else...and stands to reason, should cost more.
4) If paladins sell at 50 gp and everyone else at 300 gp, merchants will buy at 50 and sell at less then 300 and make money.
5) Non-stupid paladins will then cut out the middle man and sell directly to end users at the higher price point.
6) There still aren't going to be enough paladins to supply all the demand for those potions, so other casters are still going to sell them at more expensive price points.
7) the pricing schema not taking into account static effects unaffected by caster level is the primary weakness of Brew Potion.

So, quit accusing me of, you know, dishonesty and stuff. And look at the whole post, not little items you don't like.

==Aelryinth

I just checked the random potion tables in UE to see if there was any guidance to be found there and... they don't list lesser restoration at all? Weird. For scrolls and wands, it appears on the 2nd level chart and not the 1st, though.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Lesser Restoration is on multiple class lists. Bless weapon is not. I don't see why Paladins wouldn't sell at the market price. Just because they can make them cheap doesn't mean they have to sell them that way.

So... Those holy bastions of good would overcharge for their work just because the customers have no choice but pay?

Truly the most paladinesque of behaviors!

For a spell that help people to recover from pain, suffering and disease, no less!

But, in the time to make one such potion, they could be out among the masses curing several times as many (with spells or mercies), or be out fighting the wicked, or saving the innocent.

Honestly, I can't envision many Paladins being interested in sitting around brewing potions when there is evil to fight.

Not actually true. Making a potion of that level takes four hours for any Paladin who actually put points in Spellcraft (and it would be less if a day's worth of work wasn't the minimum you could spend on the item).

That's something that can explicitly be done on the road while adventuring, and also something that leaves, after sleep, twelve hours to go out "among the masses". Paladin spells and mercies aren't going to last twelve hours, let alone the sixteen they would have if they weren't crafting.

As a GM, suppose your players bought 10 LR potions from a Paladin (or better yet, made them herself) and want to sell them for 150 gp to a merchant. Would you or disallow, and how would you explain it in the world why the prices are they way they in the world? :)

Allow, but they're going to have to find a merchant who doesn't have access to the Paladin himself. Walking across the street from the Church of Iomedae where the Paladin is crafting to Trader Tim's General Store isn't going to cut it. They're going to have to travel to find a merchant who doesn't have the ability to buy from the Paladin himself.

And with the requisite encounters therein, the ~1,000 gold profit (before travel expenses) isn't likely to look like much. I'd also be figuring out how to turn this whole thing into a plot point, personally.

Costs of potion are by caster, not by lowest cost maker. THus, only potions made by Paladins are going to cost that. Potions are actually variable depending on the maker!

Thus, the 300 gp is probably the better price, since there will be very, very few paladin brewer-casters, and they'll likely sell at the higher price point since there's no reason not to. If they don't, then the merchants will buy up the potions and resell them at the higher rate themselves, as caster level has no effect on lesser restoration.

Meh. It's more likely a paladin potion maker will sell cheap to friends and associates, and then at market rates to anyone else. It's not like its a high demand item outside the adventurer set.

==Aelryinth

There's nothing under potion crafting that indicates an exception to the general rule that another caster can provide the spells for crafting. The language about requiring spells to be known or prepared and expended in the process of crafting is the same for all item types apart from some not requiring material components or foci to be provided so if they were meant to override the general rules on spell prerequisites those rules would never apply.

That means you don't need a paladin who took crafting feats. You need a cleric or adept who took crafting feats and a paladin who had a spare spell slot he was willing to donate to the cause of making cheap healing available to those who needed it.

If there are sufficient crafting paladins to supply the market in your game world, potions of Lesser Restoration will cost 50gp and clerics won't bother making them because they wouldn't be able to compete on price.

Similarly, if Cure Moderate Wounds is a level 2 spell for clerics and a level 3 spell for druids, that doesn't mean clerics are going to sell them at the druid price. It just means that druids won't bother selling potions of Cure Moderate Wounds because they can't compete.

If you're trying to create a realistic economy, then you could very make a GM judgment based on how many paladins you think there are working in the potion business and what impact this will have on the market price. But if you're going down that road you really ought to start repricing everything according to supply and demand rather than 'what the book says it costs'.

Talk of potions goes here. Thanks!

People who Derail threads with discussions about things like this are unfun for their CR.

Honestly at this point, I think a lot of whether a creature seems unfun or not depends heavily on whether the party is competent (and I don't mean statistically but just good at working as a team and problem solving) or the GM makes good encounters.

Except Witchfires. They need to die in a freezer. :P

If there are sufficient crafting paladins to supply the market in your game world, potions of Lesser Restoration will cost 50gp and clerics won't bother making them because they wouldn't be able to compete on price.

Similarly, if Cure Moderate Wounds is a level 2 spell for clerics and a level 3 spell for druids, that doesn't mean clerics are going to sell them at the druid price. It just means that druids won't bother selling potions of Cure Moderate Wounds because they can't compete.

If you're trying to create a realistic economy, then you could very make a GM judgment based on how many paladins you think there are working in the potion business and what impact this will have on the market price. But if you're going down that road you really ought to start repricing everything according to supply and demand rather than 'what the book says it costs'.

Hey, if the DM says there no Caster 3 CMW potions (fail the 75% roll), you can check for Caster 5 since druid exist. :P

Guys. Potions. Other thread. Follow my link from earlier.

Guys. Potions. Other thread. Follow my link from earlier.

I'm in your link, postin' for your flags! Better get over here! We got magic traps and evilness and cookies and stuff! ;)

Responded to in Tacticslion's thread.

I just checked the random potion tables in UE to see if there was any guidance to be found there and... they don't list lesser restoration at all? Weird. For scrolls and wands, it appears on the 2nd level chart and not the 1st, though.

Sorry I missed this.

I believe Scrolls and Wands are always priced off the lowest 9 level caster list if appropriate, where Potions are explicitly priced off that of the maker.

So, you'd have to roll and see if your LR potion was made by a paladin... and the one with identical effects sitting next to it is 300 gp, instead of 50.

==Aelryinth

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but this is a throw back to a different time, but for every new creature, ability, feat, what-have-you, this creature gets that much stronger... Referenced Creation

I was going to say mosquito swarms in particular are really irritating but this thread seems to have become a different monster than the one I was initially reading so...

Ima just...back away...slowly...

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but this is a throw back to a different time, but for every new creature, ability, feat, what-have-you, this creature gets that much stronger... Referenced Creation

Now this was because they had to invent a Sarrak (however spelled), in Serpent Kingdoms. It isn't a super high CR but has the capacity to do anything.

And somehow, they thought a race of these beings was fine. No designer remembered Shapechange allows becoming one.

But I agree with swarms can be irritating if not handled right.

So this is the last part of my tough monster posts.

Pixie CR4 between its stealth +16, constant invisibility and range its really hard to even know the direction of its charm monster, sleep or memory loss attacks. So glitterdusting it, will be problematic and see invisibility will be the better solution and despite it having dispel magic 1/day at caster level 8 it has no spellcraft to know what you casted. Ofcourse it still flies, has dr 10 cold iron, sr 15 and can cast shield for an ac of 22. Its also has entangle and persisten image 1/day. The balancing factor is that it has 18 hp. (Also see the will o wisp.)

Purple worm CR 12 I would actually claim this is perfect for its CR. Its countered with freedom of movement and a delay poison. Its poison needs 3 consecutive saves but a person with +14 fortitude save will take an average of 7,5 strength damage during the 6 rounds, so its not that impressive.
Its bite is affected by improved critical, critical focus and staggering critical. It has +18 perception, tremoresense and burrow, but party should roll perception DC 25 to notice sth approaching from the ground and it has a -2 initiative. So for a normal party the hard part will be protecting members not under freedom of movement and delay poison, but since the worm has no way of knowing who is protected it shouldn't be that hard.
It also has an extremely low will save and no immunity to mind affecting. All in all its a well designed monster.

Raksasha CR 10 mentioned only for its use as a spy manipulator. Its has dr 15/piercing and good, sr 25 and can cast mage armor and shield. Offensively its really really weak. However its not supposed to fight the pc's, its supposed to use its +24 disguise, +20 bluff, +18 stealth, change shape and supernatural free action fast detect thoughts to gain as much info on the pc's as possible for the big bad. In that role its very good.

Remorharz CR 7 Has burrow, tremorsense 60 ft and perception +16. I assume its bite deals no fire damage since it isn't included in statblock and the description specifically states “contact with its body”. +2 one handed weapons can withstand 5-6 hits which should be enough. Its impressively immune to both fire and cold. Getting bitten grabbed and then swallowed whole can deal a total of 63,5 damage vs non fire resistant opponents. The fact that it makes animal companions, shapeshifted druids and monks cry catapults it to tough monster category. It has int 5 so it can understand stuff.
If a dm assumes that getting grabbed or bitten deals to you fire damage then it becomes very hard to deal with.

Rertriever CR 11 +7 initiative, fast healing 5, construct traits, 50 ft speed, 5 attacks at +19 and a 6th +16 touch attack each round that can deal 12d6 (or 6d6) elemental damage or petrify, dc 19. It has to use a different ray each round. It also has discern location at will and is under the constant effects of spider climb and water walk.

Rhinoceros, Wooly CR 6 pretty good trample(2d6+13, dc 23) and diehard. Still not very impressive, but I think its worth mentioning.

Rust Monster CR 3 mostly annoying since it can relatively easily destroy treasure

Satyr CR 4 Main feature is his 60 ft aoe suggestion for a dc 18. If you save you cannot be targeted again. Then he can cast fear at dc 18. Also has suggestion at will (dc 17). Has +18 perception and +17 stealth. DR 5/cold iron. Again its all balanced by his abysmal full attack.
Note that if you can penetrate his dr he can reliably cast SM III.

Sea serpent CR 12 Oh my a higher cr behir. Again it attacks (with its 20ft reach), hits, grabs and constricts. Next round it rolls it +35 grapple, deals bite and constrict damage and then swallows whole. If only its bite hits it totals an average of 153 damage(with swallow whole damage). All of this is stopped by freedom of movement, but then again at this level the whole party wont be protected. Has immunity to cold, fire resistance 30 and a weird ability that allows it to run 300 ft in water and gain a +40 on its stealth check.
Also has a 20th caster level non detection effect when not in combat.

Shadow CR 3 A swarm of shadows is a typical party killer. Their touch attacks deal str damage without any save, as you level your hp increase faster than your strength or touch ac. A cleric can kill them with channel energy and protect people with death ward. It also has perception and stealth +8.

Shark dire CR 9 20 ft reach bite +17 (4d10+15/19-20), grabs at +29, has critical focus, bleeding critical and swallows whole. Perception +25, keen scent and blindsense 30ft.

Spectre CR 7 not as bad as the shadows or wraiths in my opinion but generally dangerous for the same reasons.

Stirge CR ½ Especially good in being annoying. Has a +7 touch attack and if it hits it deals 1 con damage in the end of the round. Easy to kill and escape from, but they will leave the party constitution lower than normal. Even at 3rd level where lesser restoration is available 8 stirges could put a serious dent in the partys resources.

Tiger/Dire tiger CR 4/8 it pounces, grabs and rakes. Also has respectable stealth in tall grass.

Treant CR 8 seems average but has some interesting and tactics. It can create two new treants albeit with only 1 slam attack and 10ft move. It can also sunder stuff very effectively as can its other treants. I can imagine a situation where if its brought to less than half its hp it can start using full defense while making the other treants inflict the broken condition to the partys weapons (not destroying them though).

Wasp swarm CR 3 A flying swarm.

Wight CR 3 Has very high perception(+11) and stealth(+16!). I don't see how they get to such high stealth. It can deal 1 negative level per slam and anything it kills becomes its spawn. Still it barely belongs in this list since its slam attack is only +4 (1d4+1).

Will o wisp CR 6 Natural invisibility, immunity to magic, flight, ranged attack and +25 stealth makes them almost impossible to deal with. However their fluff suggests other wise. “Will-o'- wisps only use their electric shock ability under extreme duress, preferring to let other creatures or hazards claim their victims while they float nearby and feast." So it seems their main stick is luring travelers to natural (or unatural) hazards, so they can feed from their fear.
If however they are forced in combat a normal party has to essentially run for it and find cover in a closed space or sth. Glitterdust can work if you make a DC 20 perception check after it attacked. Since it attacked it cannot use stealth, the pin point dc becomes from DC40 DC 20 and if it moves even at half speed the dc takes a further -5. The only problem that is the range from which it made the attack that can add +1 to the dc per 10 ft. Also for some reason I can't find the range increment for it.

Wraith CR 5 Like the shadow or the spectre its an incorporeal creature whose touch attacks target a resource other than hp. Unlike the shadow or the spectre it allows a save and deathward doesn't stop it. However since it deals con drain the fortitude save to resist it becomes ever smaller and since it deals a little damage you can actually drop from hp loss.
Perhaps the worst of its horrible kind in the core bestiary.

Yeth Hound CR 3 high initiative, perception and stealth. Its 300 radius dc 12 bay causes people to become panicked. Its bite attack is solid and alsocan cause the shaken condition(or cower people if they are already panicked). To top it off it has dr 5/silver.

Zombie, Human CR ½ Has dr and 12 hp. The fast variety is scarier.

Things I didn't include:

Erinyes already many devils and unholy blight and 1 person fear didn't impress me much.

Dretch already many demons, it might be worth mentioning for being able to cast stinking cloud.

Shadow demon. I guess I should have included it since its really hard to deal with and it will reliably deal 22 damage per round.

Medusa she can disguise and trick the party into not averting their eyes, but even so her disguise modifier isn't that big compared to the party's. She can also use full defense but her ac will still be low.

I also didn't include templates, since they have to be evaluated in a case by case basis (made a small exception fro zombies for no reason :P).

I can say 137ben is totally unfun for its CR. It has...what, 1 level of Expert and two levels of Forum Poster? So CR 2? Totally underpowered compared to other CR 2 monsters. And no unusual abilities. Completely unfun!

I can say 137ben is totally unfun for its CR. It has...what, 1 level of Expert and two levels of Forum Poster? So CR 2? Totally underpowered compared to other CR 2 monsters. And no unusual abilities. Completely unfun!

You're just using it wrong. Next you'll tell me Rogues are weak! Lrn 2 play Pathfinder plz.

Uhm, I can totally agree with PC built casters not being fun.

Mostly because my party of a hobgoblin brawler, a drow alchemist, a duergar shaman and a wyveran warpriest pissed one of them off.

The drow chose to smack the rump of an elven librarian who was collecting a book for them.

she has the sage bloodline and I had statted her up on the fly.

VERY NEARLY did she TPK the entire party.

The survivor was the drow, he had barely managed to stablize before dying.

I thought that he would of learned after he almost got gutted by a pirate queen.

Put a CR2 behind a rocket launcher, and he blows the CR level right up!

==Aelryinth

The least fun monster of the past week's gaming was probably the CR 11 Mythic Vrock our 8th level but Mythic tier 2 Vikings met. His single round 15d6 Dance of Ruin and nastier than usual Spores might have been a fun challenge, but the Epic DR combined with Mirror Images were a bit of a drag. I guess the problem was really that rolling in the high 20s on a Knowledge (Planes) check didn't reveal that we needed Epic as well as Good to beat the DR and therefore shouldn't bother wasting time to get into position and cast Align Weapon. Perhaps the problem there was really the lack of guidance the rules tend to give on what a Knowledge check should reveal.

I guess a lot of monsters can be less fun if even high Knowledge checks can't tell you how to go about fighting them. Honestly it was still a fun encounter for me since my PC's solution either way was full attack until it dies. The guy who wasted several turns buffing us might have felt otherwise though.

@Ashiel - Your comment about putting Witchfires in the freezer reminds me that Sceaduinar are so un-fun for their CR that after an encounter which featured both of them I was left with the impression that the Witchfire was the lesser of two evils. I also think she might be susceptible to Will-o-Wisp Syndrome, where the encounter can be absolutely devastating if you don’t have a Resist/Protection spell available and pretty much harmless if you do. Of course the monster could always run away and come back later after the spell wears off, but that's not particularly fun for most groups either.