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Can you use the Duelist's Precise Strike feature with a pistol? Or even how would you rule this?
As per RAW it makes no mention of a melee weapon, only that it has to be a light or one-handed weapon and that you cannot attack or use anything in the other hand. Every pistol rule I have ever seen gives firearms bludgeoning and piercing damage.
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Can you use the Duelist's Precise Strike feature with a pistol? Or even how would you rule this?
As per RAW it makes no mention of a melee weapon, only that it has to be a light or one-handed weapon and that you cannot attack or use anything in the other hand. Every pistol rule I have ever seen gives firearms bludgeoning and piercing damage.
The only thing I can see against it is ranged weapons are not categorized by light/1H/2H. Yeah a pistol only requires only 1 hand, but it is technically not a "light or 1 handed weapon" it is a ranged weapon.
Personally, I also think it's cool, but you'd probably have to talk the dm into allowing it, and pistols/revolvers wouldn't work with some of the duelist's other abilities like canny defense.
Can you use the Duelist's Precise Strike feature with a pistol? Or even how would you rule this?
As per RAW it makes no mention of a melee weapon, only that it has to be a light or one-handed weapon and that you cannot attack or use anything in the other hand. Every pistol rule I have ever seen gives firearms bludgeoning and piercing damage.
The only thing I can see against it is ranged weapons are not categorized by light/1H/2H. Yeah a pistol only requires only 1 hand, but it is technically not a "light or 1 handed weapon" it is a ranged weapon.
Personally, I also think it's cool, but you'd probably have to talk the dm into allowing it, and pistols/revolvers wouldn't work with some of the duelist's other abilities like canny defense.
What? There are one handed Crossbows (hand/light crossbow).
A Heavy crossbow would be one that is same size as you (which is why it is 2 handed to shoot).Like the way a dagger is light for a human because it is smaller than a longsword (which is your size, 5-8 ft).
So there can totally be Light pistols.
So there can totally be Light pistols.
The technology does not allow for light pistols. You will have to use a regular muzzle loading pistol, no lasers.
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Actually I just thought of another question: What if the pistol was double-barreled? One where you could make 2 simultaneous attacks at once, I think you get one attack roll but roll damage separately. You wouldn't add the damage twice correct, using Manyshot as a precedent? Or since the nature of the attack is a little different being a virtue of the weapon and not a skill the character posses change how the class feature works with that type of weapon?
I'm fine with however it gets ruled, I'm just curious on some thoughts.
Homebrew a feat and call it a day. It's just too cool to not do it.
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Homebrew a feat and call it a day. It's just too cool to not do it.
I don't think a Feat is exactly necessary, could probably hand wave it.
I don't believe the developers were thinking someone was going to try this with a longbow. I would say as long as you could accurately fire the weapon with one hand (not the -4 or -2 for heavy and light crossbows, respectively) you could use it for a Precise Strike, also allowing this to be used with hand crossbows as well.
Same rules as Sneak Attack for ranged though, 30' range, not stacking with simultaneous attacks, ect.
Slings would be iffy from a RAI aspect even beyond the initial hang waving, since in my mind atleast, I invision this as the duelist aiming down the barrel or bolt with his rapier at rest on his shoulder, not just shooting from the hip.
Speking for my self, I just like it. And ou are right: no need for a feat.
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So there can totally be Light pistols.The technology does not allow for light pistols. You will have to use a regular muzzle loading pistol, no lasers.
Maybe a derringer? They have a write up for revolvers, and four of the six firearms listed are percussion cap weapons. So I don't see any reason to exclude the possibility of a smaller, single shot weapon like a derringer. That would definitely be in same ballpark as a hand crossbow. Maybe use the stats for a small pistol? Of course, a pistol has the same "small and easy to hide" bonus as a dagger.
Eh, I think this is one of those gray areas in the rules that you'll have to work out with your DM. I don't get the impression that any of the classes or feats were written with firearms in mind, and Paizo doesn't seem to be very eager to jump into developing Alkenstar just yet.
Personally, I'd let a player use a pistol for Precise Strike. It fits with the overall theme of the class, it makes sense with the ability, I think it is pretty darn cool, and it doesn't seem overpowered. I mean, the cheapest single-handed firearm is 1,400gp! If you're willing to fork over fourteen hundred gold pieces for a weapon that does 1d6 points of damage with x2 critical just so you can look cool, I think you deserve the carrot.
"Ranged" is a weapon category, just like "Light" or "One-Handed". Precise Strike does not work with ranged weapons.
Within the RAW, however I would suggest that it is entirely within the spirit of the class to allow pistols to benifit from the class feature.
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If you're willing to fork over fourteen hundred gold pieces for a weapon that does 1d6 points of damage with x2 critical just so you can look cool, I think you deserve the carrot.What if its a 2d4 19-20/x3 Iron Kingdoms light pistol? >_> Ya think that'd change anything? lol
Not for me. You're still paying 1,400gp. At worst, I might make you spend an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. Maybe.
I'd allow it by way of rule-of-cool.
I once saw a DM at a con use that exact same line to allow a player to stand on another player's greataxe so the first player could benefit from the great-axe wielder's increased speed and reach in combat. To this day, that line makes me shudder.
Pistols like the kind in Pathfinder and 3.5 are probably based on the old style of pistols that were ridiculously and notoriously inaccurate. From a logic perspective, it makes little sense to be able to apply this ability to a Pathfinder pistol. In addition, if you think about the type that used these (you're probably going for the swashbuckling pirate archetype with a pistol in one hand and a cutlass in the other), think about how often they would shoot said pistol, and how it would only sometimes kill their opponent, even while probably fighting what would have been level 1 NPCs.
In the end, you're best off presenting all the facts and opinions you've gained from this thread to your DM to see what he says. Power-wise, it's considerable, but not overpowered. Adding a 30-foot range to your precise strike is no small thing.
Sigh, someday I'll figure out how to edit.
What if its a 2d4 19-20/x3 Iron Kingdoms light pistol? >_> Ya think that'd change anything? lol
Aren't 19-20 x3 weapons . . . ridiculously powerful compared to similar weapons? Doesn't it mathematically equate to a base 15-20 x2, or something like that?
Sigh, someday I'll figure out how to edit.
Aren't 19-20 x3 weapons . . . ridiculously powerful compared to similar weapons? Doesn't it mathematically equate to a base 15-20 x2, or something like that?
What if its a 2d4 19-20/x3 Iron Kingdoms light pistol? >_> Ya think that'd change anything? lol
19-20 X3 equates to a 17-20 or a X5. It will average 5% more damage than if it were 18-20 or X4. A nice boost, but not really broken. The Falcata (1 handed, 1d8, 19-20 X3) is the highest potential damage in the game when used with 2 hands, but not by so much that it is really broken. It only averages a 10% increase in damage over a longsword and less than 5% over a Falchion, doubled if keen. Its good, but not rediculously powerful.
I honestly don't see a need to include a weapon that is hands down better than anything else out there. Wouldn't it be better to just . . . stick to the weapon formulae and make weapons that are balanced against others? If you allow the Falcata, or this pistol, then you're essentially telling your players to go ahead and make a khopesh that does 1d6 19-20 x3 like there was in DDO. You essentially raise the bar for minimum power level, and thereby encourage power creep, by allowing a weapon that's just plain better than others in terms of sheer damage output (not necessarily weapon versatility, but damage output).
I honestly don't see a need to include a weapon that is hands down better than anything else out there. Wouldn't it be better to just . . . stick to the weapon formulae and make weapons that are balanced against others? If you allow the Falcata, or this pistol, then you're essentially telling your players to go ahead and make a khopesh that does 1d6 19-20 x3 like there was in DDO. You essentially raise the bar for minimum power level, and thereby encourage power creep, by allowing a weapon that's just plain better than others in terms of sheer damage output (not necessarily weapon versatility, but damage output).
The closest equivalent in the core book is the repeating heavy crossbow: 1d10 19-20 x2 exotic weapon. It will average 5.5*hit%+1*.1*5.5*hit% damage. This weapon will average 5*hit%+2*.1*5*hit% damage, assuming no other bounses to damage. Removing hit%, the heavy crossbow averages 6.05, and the proposed gun averages 6. However, any further bonuses are multiplied by .1 more on the gun. To catch up, the gun wielder must have +5 to damage, which is not hard but not trivial on a ranged weapon either. Even with a +25 to damage, the difference is 2 damage on an average attack, 4 if using improved crit. +25 is relatively hard and wont be achieved until high levels. Sure, on a full attack these bonuses add up, eventually become an obvious advantage, but overall it is not really that big of a deal.
This is pretty much exactly the same difference between a bastard sword and the falcata, only 10 damage is needed to overcome since it is an average of 4.5 damage for the falcata instead of 5. The Falchion and Elven Curve Blade will be better for damage than the bastard sword too.
I am not including the new crossbow feats in my consideration, since I don't have an APG yet and many GMs I know would allow similar feats for guns.
In a vacuum, yes, all that's true. And it's a valid point that since pistols won't get strength to damage, the ability to which they can scale with that strange critical range is mitigated, but it very much still stands for the falcatta. And even a small amount of damage matters very much at higher levels, and with multipliers. One point of damage turns to two, to three, to nine with a doubled threat range and huge critical multiplier. Suddenly, it's like you ignore damage reduction compared to other, plebeian weapons.
My point, however, isn't by how much or how little the falcata outshines other weapons, my point is that it is. It's the start of power creep, and should be discouraged. If I were prone to hyperbole, I'd say something like, "Soon enough we'll be running around with 2d10 18-20 x4 weapons, because that's what everyone HAD to make to balance against the 2d8 18-20x4 weapon," but fortunately I'm not, so I won't. ;-)
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In a vacuum, yes, all that's true. And it's a valid point that since pistols won't get strength to damage, the ability to which they can scale with that strange critical range is mitigated, but it very much still stands for the falcatta. And even a small amount of damage matters very much at higher levels, and with multipliers. One point of damage turns to two, to three, to nine with a doubled threat range and huge critical multiplier. Suddenly, it's like you ignore damage reduction compared to other, plebeian weapons.
My point, however, isn't by how much or how little the falcata outshines other weapons, my point is that it is. It's the start of power creep, and should be discouraged. If I were prone to hyperbole, I'd say something like, "Soon enough we'll be running around with 2d10 18-20 x4 weapons, because that's what everyone HAD to make to balance against the 2d8 18-20x4 weapon," but fortunately I'm not, so I won't. ;-)
Yes, but there's a big difference between the pistol and the falcata too that you're forgetting. Even at 20th level, I still won't be able to shoot the pistol 5 times a round. (Jury is still out on the reload speed of firearms and crossbows with our group.)
Also with the feature of Precise Strike (which is still the focus of this post), I can't use any other weapon in my off hand, ie. my cutlass. So I'm basically going to get one shot with the extra damage in that round. Whether or not I can get one shot with the bonus, then my iterive attacks with my other hand without the bonus, is the subject of a whole other topic.