|
Implicit vs explicit. And by implication via other rules. Also, remember context. These "rules" (with hindsight I wish I used the word "expectations" instead) were listed in support of why a player may not play a pregen in a self-destructive way.
Soooo.... by applying the *boon* I won *at GenCon* I have violated this implicit understanding? I had worries about applying it because of this, but was assured that wouldn't be the same.
3) if an Agent is incompetent, then that Agent wouldn't have been kept on duty. Ergo, you are expected to not be useless to the team. Rules-speak, because that'd be a systematic violation of "Don't Be A Jerk".
RNG is a thing . One could have a character with the most elite of skill-sets with the best numbers.. and have the luck of '1s' on every d20 they roll.
Would someone like that count as 'incompentent'? Or is that acceptable within these parameters?
4) violation of versimilitude, and rules regarding mandatory removal of afflictions (see below). Field Agents have a ton of agency. You are expected to not be playing someone being forced to be a Field Agent against his will because if your PC doesn't want to be one, why doesn't he take advantage of the infinite possibilities to bail on the Society that arise in the field? You may not say he's being magically compelled to serve either, because of the rules regarding mandatory removal of afflictions, even if you were to somehow insist your character has been Geased or whatever. Heck, an entire third of your mandate to "Explore, Report, and Cooperate" precludes even the possibility of playing someone who wants to undermine or otherwise not be fully in support of furthering your assigned mission for the scenario.
So the very awesome role-play of someone that had their eidolon as their 'jailer' and they were on 'work-release' to help the Society was invalid, then?
I'm not advocating for folks attempting to screw the party over.
However, if someone has a Very Good Story Reason for why they are working for the Society and it's not "Because I REALLY OMFG WANNA BE HERE!" that should get a pass, right?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Who is being penalized? I'm just seeing one closed loophole.
1) Smaller lodges that have a hard time filling tables due to player density.
2) Newer players that want to try out a different class.
3) Older players that are trying to help 'round out' a table.
4) Folks that want to play but don't have anyone 'in range'.
5) Folks that don't want to assign it to a L1 character and would like to 'hold' a scenario until the character that the scenario is appropriate is for reach that level.
Those are the folks I see at first glance, at least?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Implicit vs explicit. And by implication via other rules. Also, remember context. These "rules" (with hindsight I wish I used the word "expectations" instead) were listed in support of why a player may not play a pregen in a self-destructive way.
3) if an Agent is incompetent, then that Agent wouldn't have been kept on duty. Ergo, you are expected to not be useless to the team. Rules-speak, because that'd be a systematic violation of "Don't Be A Jerk".
I fail to see how being incompetent necessarily means the player is being a jerk. A lot of the discussion in this thread has been about griefing, but what about simply not being a skilled player? The OP mentioned that the problem players were newbies, if not entirely to PF at least to PFS. I can certainly understand newbs not being particularly confident in their PCs' abilities or how to successfully exploit the rules to achieve their goals. A rogue hiding during the bar fight? That hardly seems out of character, particularly if they're not really expecting the fight to end up with everyone dead (it being a bar fight, after all).
And even if a player isn't a newbie, they may misjudge situations and make mistakes. Incompetence doesn't imply being a jerk and we shouldn't think that way.
|
Who is being penalized? I'm just seeing one closed loophole.
1) Smaller lodges that have a hard time filling tables due to player density.
2) Newer players that want to try out a different class.
3) Older players that are trying to help 'round out' a table.
4) Folks that want to play but don't have anyone 'in range'.
5) Folks that don't want to assign it to a L1 character and would like to 'hold' a scenario until the character that the scenario is appropriate is for reach that level.
Those are the folks I see at first glance, at least?
None of which are told they cannot still use a pregen to fill any of the roles just mentioned.
They merely have to assign credit beforehand like everyone else at the table. This is not a penalty or punishment.
|
|
This is not a penalty or punishment.Because it's not meant to stop griefing?
Honestly, I don't think that's the goal. No one on the PFS team has really mentioned why the rule exists. I'd be willing to conjecture that it was to align pregen chronicle sheets with 'normal PC' chronicle sheets so the the guide didn't have two different rule sets. Cut down on the page count by making the rules the same for everyone?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel this would be less contentious if we could use the actual character's resources to revive a deceased Pregen.
Since going back and forth about small lodge vs large lodge, I hate this vs I love this, etc. isn't solving anything, let's help Tonya word the Guide so that a level 6 character doesn't perma-die when level 7 Kyra is part of a TPK.
Assuming people are in favor of that. I could be wrong.
|
Implicit vs explicit. And by implication via other rules. Also, remember context. These "rules" (with hindsight I wish I used the word "expectations" instead) were listed in support of why a player may not play a pregen in a self-destructive way.
3) if an Agent is incompetent, then that Agent wouldn't have been kept on duty. Ergo, you are expected to not be useless to the team. Rules-speak, because that'd be a systematic violation of "Don't Be A Jerk".
I fail to see how being incompetent necessarily means the player is being a jerk. A lot of the discussion in this thread has been about griefing, but what about simply not being a skilled player? The OP mentioned that the problem players were newbies, if not entirely to PF at least to PFS. I can certainly understand newbs not being particularly confident in their PCs' abilities or how to successfully exploit the rules to achieve their goals. A rogue hiding during the bar fight? That hardly seems out of character, particularly if they're not really expecting the fight to end up with everyone dead (it being a bar fight, after all).
And even if a player isn't a newbie, they may misjudge situations and make mistakes. Incompetence doesn't imply being a jerk and we shouldn't think that way.
I suspect you (and Wei Ji the Learner) are bending over backwards to find reasons to disagree with me. I can't otherwise comprehend how you can fail to see how playing in ways so as to deliberately undermine the party's ability to successfully complete the scenario is NOT being a jerk.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel this would be less contentious if we could use the actual character's resources to revive a deceased Pregen.
Can't you? As I understand it, the situation right now is:
- If the pregen would get a bad condition that's not lifted, it "dies" and so does your PC.
- Before you can start selling off the pregen's gear to lift the condition, you have to spend a certain amount (0,1,2K) of your own money. This own money can come out of the earnings on that adventure, or your real PC's bags.
- After the preliminary death tax has been paid, further clearance can also be financed by selling off the pregen's stuff.
This is my understanding based on earlier discussions about the rule. It's very hard to read that in the Guide though, which is one of the things I believe is so very wrong with these rules. The rules for PC survival should be crystal clear and in the Guide.
Another unclear question is if other people can help finance your raising if you're playing a pregen, if they can help out with the death tax and so forth.
I'm not entirely opposed to the death tax. If you're selling off a pregen's stuff to get raised, that'd be a lot of free money. It's fair it's not entirely free. But the rule is just too confusing right now.
|
|
Make a character number just for pregen play.
Fill with pregen chronicles until you get to the point you deem it too risky or just want to cash in.
Start new PC under that number, assigning the pregen chronicles as they come up.
Repeat all as necessary, or if pregen dies before cashing in.
Handle griefing at personal level. There is no way to administrate this via rules, which could all be circumvented anyway (even the new ones).
Be kind to novices and the unlucky. They don't mean to grief. But that doesn't give you license to transfer a death to a new number, whatever you were playing.
Stick to early seasons with newbies, especially those playing pregens. :)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I suspect you (and Wei Ji the Learner) are bending over backwards to find reasons to disagree with me. I can't otherwise comprehend how you can fail to see how playing in ways so as to deliberately undermine the party's ability to successfully complete the scenario is NOT being a jerk.
What I'm seeing here is less bending over backward to disagree with you as much as giving people the benefit of the doubt that they're not being jerks when they're just not playing well... particularly for newbies to the game. Frankly, the only jerk behavior I'm seeing here is the assumption that poor teamwork and poor play must be intentionally malicious.
|
I feel this would be less contentious if we could use the actual character's resources to revive a deceased Pregen.
I know this has been discussed and I know you asked Tonya this question but still I don't see what is preventing the actual character's resources from being used to revive a deceased Pregen.
It has been pretty clearly shown that for level 7, and most level 4, pregens have enough gear to sell to get the revival done. Couple that with the gold earned on the chronicle there should be more than sufficient funds available. The actual character has to pay up some gold depending on the level of the pregen but I don't see that being an impediment either. If needed, the actual character should be able sell gear.
I agree, it is gray.. too gray for our likes but I believe it is still workable.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know this has been discussed and I know you asked Tonya this question but still I don't see what is preventing the actual character's resources from being used to revive a deceased Pregen.
I believe the issue is that the chronicle is being held. It is inconsistent to say 'you can use the gold from the chronicle, but not the XP or PP'. Since the chronicle isn't applied, you can't just spend the gold on it. Likewise, how do you spend gold on a chronicle you haven't earned? Mark it on the next chronicle actually applied, even if that isn't the held chronicle?
|
|
I know this has been discussed and I know you asked Tonya this question but still I don't see what is preventing the actual character's resources from being used to revive a deceased Pregen.I believe the issue is that the chronicle is being held. It is inconsistent to say 'you can use the gold from the chronicle, but not the XP or PP'. Since the chronicle isn't applied, you can't just spend the gold on it. Likewise, how do you spend gold on a chronicle you haven't earned? Mark it on the next chronicle actually applied, even if that isn't the held chronicle?
I guess I see it as reducing the gold that would be available from that chronicle when it is applied. Note, I am not saying cross off gold but to show that gold was "spent" on the chronicle. I see this as a special case where the gold could be used before the chronicle is officially applied to a character.
And I do feel that PP should also be available to be used as well.
|
|
I suspect you (and Wei Ji the Learner) are bending over backwards to find reasons to disagree with me. I can't otherwise comprehend how you can fail to see how playing in ways so as to deliberately undermine the party's ability to successfully complete the scenario is NOT being a jerk.
Actually, no.
I cited anecdotal and actual situations to point out concerns with the line of reasoning that was being pursued.
I also FIRMLY stated
I'm not advocating for folks attempting to screw the party over.
|
Organized Play Coordinator
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This discussion has gone way off topic from the OP.
It is not an opportunity to open up another thread on the pregen death tax, as I stated in my original post. But to update you on the death tax issue - I've been combing the already present threads, in which many of you stated your opinions, for feedback and suggestions. The PFS team spent over an hour this Wednesday looking at the death tax, your feedback, and brainstorming revisions. These revisions are going through a vetting/feedback process. I hope to provide a full conversation on the subject before the end of November.
But for now, let us get back to the OP. Keep it civil please!
Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
|
As to wether the resources on the chronicle can be used:
I think you can based on this from OPC.
As for the dead pregen issue - Any resources on the chronicle in question may be used to resolve the character "deductible" owed if raising a pregenerated iconic character. How this applies to pregenerated specials is something I want to discuss with the team before proceeding.
Edit: I swear I typed this up before I saw Tonya's post! :-)
|
|
Taking it back to the Original Post.
What can we do as players and GMs (aside from the suggestions already brought forward in this thread) to promote a sense of community and teamwork at a table?
How can we make this happen at a convention with up to five other folks we may have never met before without either A. Being too overbearing about it or B. Not being assertive enough to help not only the newer players but those who have been around a while.
As stated earlier -- we all have our 'off' days.
And despite playing in d20 systems since the early '80's, I DEFINTELY don't know everything. Not even a tenth of everything.
So how do we build forward from this, setting aside the contentious topic that this thread was heading towards?