occult and dreamspun, memory and dreams, cats and dogs


Rules Questions


So here's a thing I want to do: I want to make a character that can inspire an NPC to become a paladin by incepting them the right dream. Or, similar shenanigans like making up prophecies, inspiring a work of art, showing pictures of a subject's grave in the future, etc.

Core Rulebook wrote:
dream: You, or a messenger you touch, send a message to others in the form of a dream. At the beginning of the spell, you must name the recipient or identify him or her by some title that leaves no doubt as to identity. The messenger then enters a trance, appears in the intended recipient's dream, and delivers the message. The message can be of any length, and the recipient remembers it perfectly upon waking. The communication is one-way. The recipient cannot ask questions or offer information, nor can the messenger gain any information by observing the dreams of the recipient.

1) What sort of form can the message take? Could you deliver a symphony, or a picture, or a feeling?

2) Could a wizard disguise themselves as an angel (or, say, a burning bush) before casting dream?

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
Dreamshaper (Sp): At 9th level, you [a dreamspun-blooded sorcerer] can manipulate the dreamscape of others, drawing forth or tampering with their subconscious minds. This power allows you to tamper with the target's memories as if using modify memory, or you may ask questions as if using speak with dead upon a corpse. A successful Will save negates the effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier, with further modifiers as the nightmare spell. You can use this ability once per day at 9th level. At 17th level you can use this ability twice per day, and at 20th, three times per day.

3) Most other effects that muck with dreams have unlimited range (see dream, dream scan, dream travel, and nightmare). Does the dreamshaper bloodline ability also have unlimited range? Or will my character always get the -10 to the target's Will save with some scissors and an easy Sleight of Hand check?

Core Rulebook wrote:

modify memory: You reach into the subject's mind and modify as many as 5 minutes of its memories in one of the following ways.

  • Eliminate all memory of an event the subject actually experienced. This spell cannot negate charm, geas/quest, suggestion, or similar spells.
  • Allow the subject to recall with perfect clarity an event it actually experienced.
  • Change the details of an event the subject actually experienced.
  • Implant a memory of an event the subject never experienced.

Casting the spell takes 1 round. If the subject fails to save, you proceed with the spell by spending as much as 5 minutes (a period of time equal to the amount of memory you want to modify) visualizing the memory you wish to modify in the subject. If your concentration is disturbed before the visualization is complete, or if the subject is ever beyond the spell's range during this time, the spell is lost.

A modified memory does not necessarily affect the subject's actions, particularly if it contradicts the creature's natural inclinations. An illogical modified memory is dismissed by the creature as a bad dream, too much wine, or another similar excuse.

4) Can you make the target aware that the 'memory' they are experiencing is a dream? As in, sure it's a dream, but that doesn't make whatever concept was imparted any less important?

5) I would like to visualize extremely complicated things such as symphonic music, a world made of paint, a city on another plane, the architectural drawings to the Tower of Babel, etc. What sort of check would it be to do that? Craft (dreamscape)?

6) What sort of check would it be to 'affect the subject's actions' as a result of one or multiple dreamshapings? Diplomacy?

Occult Adventures wrote:
Dimension of Dreams:
  • Flowing Time: Both lucid bodies and creatures visiting the Dimension of Dream with their physical bodies are subject to the flowing time trait of a given dreamscape.
Game Mastery Guide wrote:
Flowing Time: On some planes, the flow of time is consistently faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed. Everything on the plane returned to is only a few seconds older. But for that traveler and the items, spells, and effects working on him, that year away was entirely real. When designating how time works on planes with flowing time, put the Material Plane's flow of time first, followed by the flow in the other plane.

7) Modify memory gives you 5 minutes to work with. In a dream, how long is 5 minutes? Could I pull off The Inner Light on someone?


1) I think any of those are valid, depending on what your DM has to say.

2)I guess they could, another DM fiat issue. I'd suggest sending a diplomatic/bluffing bard if your DM doesn't allow the disguise to carry over to the dream.

3)If there is no explicitly stated range increment in the description of the ability then it will default to the spells that the ability is replicating. So look at modify memory and speak with dead for the answer to this one.

4)If you use modify memory to modify the memory that 'the recipient remembers ... perfectly' from having dream cast on them then they will perfectly remember a modified memory of a dream and you don't have to worry about incepting the idea at all

5)The spell says that if you can visualize it then thats what you get. I'd say theres no craft check needed unless your DM really wants one for some reason

6)If you can somehow get the subject to start talking about their dreams (assuming you want to keep it a secret that you put them there to begin with) you can use diplomacy to suggest a course of action, but its not mind control. If you want to mind control them into believing the dream was worth listening to you will need a fairly strong compulsion spell

7)DM fiat, but my interpretation is: You are modifying 5 minutes of memory, not 5 minutes of real time. The memory of the dream could be of unlimited subjective length according to the description of the spell, but you will only be able to modify 5 minutes of that subjective length of time.

EDIT: while this is suuuuper cool from a flavor point of view, it might be easier to add lesser geas to your spell list (sorc 4) and give the target a geas to take holy orders in the church of your choice

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