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Here is a link to the spell itself.
What does my oracle roll when trying a combat maneuver with this spell? This is for a PFS character, if that matters to anyone.
I can really only see it going one of two ways.
CL+Wis (cleric)+ size+ Misc modifiers
CL + Str/Dex+ size+ Misc modifiers
Oracle is not listed as a class that gets to sub a stat. I don't know if that translates to using your usual stat or to this faq entry.
Oracle: Can I use my Charisma modifier for cleric spells and effects that use Wisdom, such as spiritual weapon?
As written, those effects say "Wisdom" (because they were written before the idea of the oracle class as a Charisma-based caster), so an oracle has to use her Wisdom modifier.
However, it is a perfectly reasonable house rule to allow an oracle to use her Charisma modifier (or bonus) for cleric spells that refer to the caster's Wisdom modifier (or bonus).
Why would you use your Str or Dex mod? You're casting it as a Cleric spell, so it works off of Wisdom, just like it would on a Cleric.
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Because the spell says to make a Combat Maneuver check (spelled out in the CRB as Str+BAB+Size+Stuff).
The spell specifies that you use CL in place of BAB.
It also specifies that those 3 classes substitute a stat. The spell was written after the APG, so the FAQ's statement trying to cover backwards compatibility doesn't seem to apply. You aren't casting "as a cleric." you're casting as an oracle.
As it's for PFS I'd need to know which way to go, and I'll get to dread table variation.
I asked 3 GMs last night and got 3 answers. Granted one of them said he knew he was wrong but that he felt that Charisma + CL was the answer. Or at least it should be.
Aside: I really hate this FAQ answer...
The chain can perform the dirty trick (blind or entangle), drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers, using your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and your Charisma modifier (sorcerer), Intelligence modifier (wizard), or Wisdom modifier (cleric) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.
It tells you to use your Charisma modifier, Intelligence modifier, or Wisdom modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity. There is no option given for using Strength or Dexterity.
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The chain can perform the dirty trick (blind or entangle), drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers, using your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and your Charisma modifier (sorcerer), Intelligence modifier (wizard), or Wisdom modifier (cleric) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.It tells you to use your Charisma modifier, Intelligence modifier, or Wisdom modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity. There is no option given for using Strength or Dexterity.
It's not that there's no option given. It's that there isn't an adjustment to an established rule for the class in question.
The chain can perform the dirty trick (blind or entangle), drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers...
The Normal math for a Combat Maneuver.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
using your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus,
So we adjust the above to CMB = CL + Strength + Special size modifier
and your Charisma modifier (sorcerer), Intelligence modifier (wizard), or Wisdom modifier (cleric) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.
So those classes substitute the approprate stat for Strength or Dex.
Sorcerer: CMB = CL + Charisma + Special size modifier
Wizard: CMB = CL + Intelligence + Special size modifier
Cleric: CMB = CL + Wisdom + Special size modifier
The spell doesn't use the same language as other spells that make special "checks to trip" or "checks to grapple." It doesn't say "roll CL + Stat and get this effect." It says to use an established system and adjust it as listed. There's no appropriate adjustment listed.
Well, one could say that it defaults to Str/Dex since no explicit option is given for an Oracle. It says if you're a Sorc, use Cha; if you're a Wizard, use Int; if you're a Cleric, use Wis. No part of that states what you replace Str/Dex with if you're an Oracle, no part of it states to replace Str/Dex with anything if you're an Oracle. Ergo, you make no replacement. So the question is as to whether this is an intentional omission or merely an oversight.The chain can perform the dirty trick (blind or entangle), drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers, using your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and your Charisma modifier (sorcerer), Intelligence modifier (wizard), or Wisdom modifier (cleric) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.It tells you to use your Charisma modifier, Intelligence modifier, or Wisdom modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity. There is no option given for using Strength or Dexterity.
You're putting a lot of emphasis on the word "if," even though it doesn't appear at all in the sentence. It tells you to replace Str/Dex with Int, Wis, or Cha. Period. Then the classes in parentheses clarify who uses which stat. Since Oracles aren't explicitly listed, then based on the precedent of spiritual weapon and the fact that Oracles cast from the Cleric spell list, they should use Wisdom as well.
I agree that it would be better if Oracles used Charisma, but I don't see a way to get that from the rules. Using Strength or Dexterity makes even less sense. I wish Pathfinder would just define the term "Spellcasting Ability Modifier" or something like that, and use it for spells like this.
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You're putting a lot of emphasis on the word "if," even though it doesn't appear at all in the sentence. It tells you to replace Str/Dex with Int, Wis, or Cha. Period. Then the classes in parentheses clarify who uses which stat. Since Oracles aren't explicitly listed, then based on the precedent of spiritual weapon and the fact that Oracles cast from the Cleric spell list, they should use Wisdom as well.
While I appreciate the word from the author (and maybe that'll impact an eventual FAQ) I don't think it will carry weight with the PFS community.
That said, I still don't see that you'd use Wisdom. I don't think that repeating myself will change your opinion, nor do I particularly think that it'd sway a PFS DM that agrees with you. I think that some will rule Strength and some Wisdom.
Hopefully at some point it's addressed in an update / FAQ.
I agree that it would be better if Oracles used Charisma, but I don't see a way to get that from the rules. Using Strength or Dexterity makes even less sense. I wish Pathfinder would just define the term "Spellcasting Ability Modifier" or something like that, and use it for spells like this.
I agree whole-heartedly and actually just posted that in the Pathfinder 2.0 wishlist. It'd make the game run that much smoother.
