Whimsical Channel Ruling Needed

[Quishadi]

This is both a rules question and a PFS question.

Here are the details in a thread I started in the GM section: Player's Cleric Build.

For those who don't want to follow that link, here is the wording for Whimsical Channel:

Spoiler:

Whimsical Channel(Su): When you channel energy, you may choose to first roll 1d6. On a roll of 1, you roll 1d6 fewer dice of damage or healing than normal (to a minimum of 1d6). On a roll of 2, 3 or 4, your channel energy attempt is unaffected. On a roll of 5 or 6, you roll 1d6 more dice of damage or healing than you would have otherwise. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

7d6 at first level? I'm hoping that this was not the intent. If it was, maybe it's good for a home game, but do we really want it in PFS? Haven't we already had enough with builds based on the latest over-powered hotness?

Aside from that, there is also the question of whether the wording in the Separatist Cleric Archetype allows the player to pick sub-domains as well as domains.

[Netopalis]

How do you get 7d6? To me, it would seem that success would result in a 2d6 channel at first level.

[Whiskey Jack]

I think the issue here is interpretation of the phrasing:

The OP interprets "you roll 1d6 more dice of damage or healing than you would have otherwise." to mean "roll a 1d6 to see how many more dice of damage or healing is done" (i.e. a 5 = 5d6 additional dice of healing/damage). Netopalis interprets it as "roll +1d6 additional healing/damage".

It would be nice to get an official ruling on this. My interpretation is with the original poster's but Netopalis' makes for more balanced rules and I could see that as well.

[Netopalis]

Ahh, I see the problem, but I disagree that RAW requires rolliing 1d6 more 1d6s. Look closely at the wording: 1d6 more dice of damage. If this is that many extra additional dice, then what kind of dice are they? Pathfinder rarely refers to dice in the generic term - it generally adds a specific set of dice. Therefore, interpreting this in light of other provisions with Pathfinder, I still think it's +1d6.

[Whiskey Jack]

Yes, that interpretation definitely makes more actual sense and is more balanced.

[Eric Saxon]

It says '1d6 more dice of damage' and all channeling dice are d6. It could have said '1d6 more damage' and it would be no problem but it doesn't, it says '1d6 more dice.'

[Michael Brock]

Netopalis wrote:

Ahh, I see the problem, but I disagree that RAW requires rolliing 1d6 more 1d6s. Look closely at the wording: 1d6 more dice of damage. If this is that many extra additional dice, then what kind of dice are they? Pathfinder rarely refers to dice in the generic term - it generally adds a specific set of dice. Therefore, interpreting this in light of other provisions with Pathfinder, I still think it's +1d6.

^^^This

[Nefreet]

It makes more sense if you remove two instances of "d6" from the wording.

Original wording:

"Whimsical Channel(Su): When you channel energy, you may choose to first roll 1d6. On a roll of 1, you roll 1d6 fewer dice of damage or healing than normal (to a minimum of 1d6). On a roll of 2, 3 or 4, your channel energy attempt is unaffected. On a roll of 5 or 6, you roll 1d6 more dice of damage or healing than you would have otherwise. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier."

Intended wording (probably):

"Whimsical Channel(Su): When you channel energy, you may choose to first roll 1d6. On a roll of 1, you roll 1 fewer dice of damage or healing than normal (to a minimum of 1d6). On a roll of 2, 3 or 4, your channel energy attempt is unaffected. On a roll of 5 or 6, you roll 1 more dice of damage or healing than you would have otherwise. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier."

Anybody play 2nd Edition? Remember the non-returning Boomerang listed in the Barbarian's Handbook? It dealt 14 + 12 damage. RAW it was a nuclear warhead attached to a stick, but RAI it was missing a couple "d"s. I think I found where they went.

[Quishadi]

Honestly, I looked at it and thought "it must mean +/- 1d6 ... anything else seems ridiculous." However, the table was pretty evenly split as to what each of us thought it was supposed to mean. All of us reread it and agreed that RAW = the player should roll 1d6 and that's how many fewer or extra dice (and channeling dice are d6s) the cleric should roll (So if Brock is official, we were all wrong). However half of us believed that RAI = RAW and the other half of us insisted that RAI = +/- 1d6. As it turned out, 7d6 or 2d6 were equally effective, and the cleric was actually never able to get another channel off for the rest of the adventure. But still this was not obvious to any of us. So, if we're any indication, there will be definite confusion as to what this means. In fact, follow my link and you'll see that there's already one poster who plans to make a Whimsical Channeler based on their reading of the subdomain power. I wonder how many players have already done so?

Michael Brock - am I to take what you have said to be an official ruling that it is only +/- 1d6?

Nefreet - I agree, I think you have the correct intended wording, and I would like to see it placed in the FAQ.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[CRobledo]

Quishadi wrote:

Brock - am I to take what you have said to be an official ruling that it is only +/- 1d6?

Yes, I don't see how I could take that any other way.

[Roac]

Quishadi wrote:

So if Brock is official, we were all wrong

If he's official? He is the Campaign Coordinator, so he is the very definition of what constitutes official in PFS.

[Quishadi]

Thanks JA - I understand that MB is the coordinator of the campaign and that this is an official ruling with respect to the campaign. (I'm still not sure whether it is official for Pathfinder as a whole.) However, my point, I think, still stands: The wording of the ability is confusing. A table full of people read these rules and all separately misinterpreted RAW. We split on RAI, but still half even thought that RAI was a d6 of d6s. Further, others in this and the other thread I linked to have read the rule and misinterpreted it (though most thought they knew what it is supposed to mean).

[Mike Mistele]

Quishadi wrote:

However, my point, I think, still stands: The wording of the ability is confusing. A table full of people read these rules and all separately misinterpreted RAW. We split on RAI, but still half even thought that RAI was a d6 of d6s. Further, others in this and the other thread I linked to have read the rule and misinterpreted it (though most thought they knew what it is supposed to mean).

A d6 worth of d6s (especially at first level) sounds too good to be true, and it is, which should be everyone's first clue that this interpretation of RAW is off.

But, yes, the language needs tightening.

[CRobledo]

If you would like to see the language tightened for Pathfinder as a whole, then the Rules forum are your solution.

For PFS, I think we are pretty clear on the ruling now.

[Netopalis]

Well, if you're curious about it from a non-PFS perspective, I would recommend taking it over to the main rules forum. If you're worried about it being overpowering in a home game and there is a split interpretation, you could always houserule.

[Yiroep]

Lol. I think if it worked where you added a d6 of d6's, every single life oracle would be taking level dips in cleric for it.

It's definitely just another +1d6 of channel.

[Eric Saxon]

Oh, I knew what was meant, when it was written, I'm not sure anyone was really confused about it, at least not if they are being honest with themselves.

I just wanted to play a Cleric with 7d6 channeling damage at lvl. 1.

[Nefreet]

Be sure you combine this ability with one of those cards from MTG: Unglued that lets you adjust any d6s in your favor.

/sarcasm