Trait Demon Hunter

[nosig]

I had someone ask me (as a judge) about the Religion trait "Demon Hunter" in the APG. It seems they are starting a character and was thinking of taking this trait - but hit a problem with being a worshiper of Asmodaus... the trait reads:

Demon Hunter (LE): Raised in the church (whether or not you are currently a follower), you’ve focused your indoctrinated fervor primarily on the elimination of demons. You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about demons and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from demons.

bolding is mine. In PFS, in order to keep the trait, does a PC have to remain a worshiper of Asmodaus?

[Sior]

I'd guess no, because the bolded area specifically says whether you currently follow them or not you get the trait. A real world example is I was raised in the Christian church, I no longer follow that religion but that experience and learning is still used today as more of a way of thought than a necessary mandate. I don't see much difference with a character who has this trait for their deity. (Religious reference not intended to start a flame war, just giving an example.)

[nosig]

Sior: THanks!
that's sort of what I figured too, but I've had it come up before that if you change religions (dieties), it invalidates your traits. But I have not seen anything rules wise that addresses this (so I figured I'd come here and get a better idea, and maybe have someone point out the rule).

[nosig]

Ok, I'm seeing a problem with this trait again.

I've seen judges on another thread explain that your PC can not take a Religion trait without being an active worshiper of the diety the trait is for. (And that your PC is only allowed one diety.) And that if your PC switchs dieties, that the benifits of the trait are lost. Perhaps with an Atonement, and switching back, you could regain the benifits....

Yet, this trait says "...(whether or not you are currently a follower)..." so... what's up with this? Is it an exception to the above rules? Are there any others? Which "religion traits" require your PC to be an ACTIVE worshiper, and which only require that your PC to have once been a worshiper (in the past, perhaps in childhood)?

[Sniggevert]

nosig wrote:

Ok, I'm seeing a problem with this trait again.

I've seen judges on another thread explain that your PC can not take a Religion trait without being an active worshiper of the diety the trait is for. (And that your PC is only allowed one diety.) And that if your PC switchs dieties, that the benifits of the trait are lost. Perhaps with an Atonement, and switching back, you could regain the benifits....

Yet, this trait says "...(whether or not you are currently a follower)..." so... what's up with this? Is it an exception to the above rules? Are there any others? Which "religion traits" require your PC to be an ACTIVE worshiper, and which only require that your PC to have once been a worshiper (in the past, perhaps in childhood)?

This should simply be a case of specific overrides general in terms of rules. In general, you have to be a follower of a deity to choose and gain the benefits a trait labeled as being linked to a religion.

However, this trait specific calls out that you do not have to be a current follower of the religion to use the trait. As such, I'd think any background changing of deity before play (such as in childhood) would work IMO for this specific trait (or any other trait that might have similar language).

[Akerlof]

nosig wrote:

Ok, I'm seeing a problem with this trait again.

I've seen judges on another thread explain that your PC can not take a Religion trait without being an active worshiper of the diety the trait is for. (And that your PC is only allowed one diety.) And that if your PC switchs dieties, that the benifits of the trait are lost. Perhaps with an Atonement, and switching back, you could regain the benifits....

Yet, this trait says "...(whether or not you are currently a follower)..." so... what's up with this? Is it an exception to the above rules? Are there any others? Which "religion traits" require your PC to be an ACTIVE worshiper, and which only require that your PC to have once been a worshiper (in the past, perhaps in childhood)?

I would imagine this is a case of specific trumping general. This specific trait allows you to keep it even though you no longer worship Asmodeus even though you generally cannot keep deity based religion traits if you no longer worship that deity.

Also, the wording of the religion traits rule isn't invariable: It says you _can_ lose the trait, not that you _invariably_ lose it. So it seems like this was an option intentionally left open for specific traits to use.

Religion Traits wrote:

Religion Traits: Religion traits indicate that your character has an established faith in a specific deity; you need not be a member of a class that can wield divine magic to pick a religion trait, but you do have to have a patron deity and have some amount of religion in your background to justify this trait. Unlike the other categories of traits, religion traits can go away if you abandon your religion, as detailed below under Restrictions on Trait Selection.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

I'd say specific trumps general.

[GM Lamplighter]

But, you once *did* worship Asmodeus, so you alignment must be within one step of LE (and within one step of any new deity you are worshipping as well).

[Pirate Rob]

Mark Moreland said that the flavor section of traits is non-binding here.

So ignoring the flavor secrion which talks about being a current or former member we are left with:

Religion Trait: Demon Hunter
Requirement: Admodeus
You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about demons and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from demons.

Religion Traits:

Religion Traits: Religion traits indicate that your character has an established faith in a specific deity; you need not be a member of a class that can wield divine magic to pick a religion trait, but you do have to have a patron deity and have some amount of religion in your background to justify this trait. Unlike the other categories of traits, religion traits can go away if you abandon your religion, as detailed below under Restrictions on Trait Selection.

Restrictions on Trait Selection:

Even if your character becomes a hermit and abandons society, he’ll still retain his legacy of growing up an aristocrat if he took the relevant social trait. The one exception to this is religion traits—since these traits require continued faith in a specific deity, your character can indeed lose the benefits of these traits if he switches religions. In this case, consult your GM for your options. She may simply rule that your character loses that trait, or she might allow him to pick a new religion trait tied to his new deity. Another option is that if your character abandons a religion, he loses the associated religion trait until he gains an experience level,
at which point he may replace a lost religion trait with a
basic faith trait.

So mechanically you need to have Asmodeus as your patron deity despite flavor text to the contrary since switching religions causes you to lose the trait (replacement subject to GM discretion).

[nosig]

Great, now we have YMMV in traits. Sigh. It's what I was afread of.
.
I guess I'll just go tell my friend to table the Demon Hunter idea, as it seems that in PFS it will only work at some tables, but not all.

[Eric Saxon]

Scott Young wrote:

But, you once *did* worship Asmodeus, so you alignment must be within one step of LE (and within one step of any new deity you are worshipping as well).

If you are LN you can go from Asmodeus to a LG diety, different end of the spectrum. :D

[nosig]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Scott Young wrote:

But, you once *did* worship Asmodeus, so you alignment must be within one step of LE (and within one step of any new deity you are worshipping as well).

If you are LN you can go from Asmodeus to a LG diety, different end of the spectrum. :D

I would think, that over time a character can shift alignment. So a person could start life as N/N (baby), become N/E (6 year old. All parents know 6 year olds are EVIL!), then become C/N (teen ager), maybe to C/G (adult). So ... she was N/E from ages 6 to 15, when she recieved her religius training in the Cheliaxian Orphanage, and grew up to be an Andoran Freedom fighter (C/G)!... Demon Hunter - who doesn't have her trait bonuses, cause she doesn't worship Asmodaus any longer (except at some judges tables).

[CanisDirus]

Pirate Rob wrote:

Mark Moreland said that the flavor section of traits is non-binding here.

So ignoring the flavor secrion which talks about being a current or former member we are left with:

Religion Trait: Demon Hunter
Requirement: Admodeus
You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about demons and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from demons.

By your logic, we must also ignore the flavor section from trait categories:

Quote:

Religion Traits: Religion traits indicate that your character has an established faith in a specific deity; you need not be a member of a class that can wield divine magic to pick a religion trait, but you do have to have a patron deity and have some amount of religion in your background to justify this trait. Unlike the other categories of traits, religion traits can go away if you abandon your religion, as detailed below under Restrictions on Trait Selection.

The only mechanical restriction on deity and alignment is for those receiving divine magic. A lay person can honor/worship Asmodeus regardless of their alignment, meaning the trait would be ok.

[Pirate Rob]

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Pirate Rob wrote:

Mark Moreland said that the flavor section of traits is non-binding here.

So ignoring the flavor secrion which talks about being a current or former member we are left with:

Religion Trait: Demon Hunter
Requirement: Admodeus
You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about demons and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from demons.

By your logic, we must also ignore the flavor section from trait categories:

Quote:

Religion Traits: Religion traits indicate that your character has an established faith in a specific deity; you need not be a member of a class that can wield divine magic to pick a religion trait, but you do have to have a patron deity and have some amount of religion in your background to justify this trait. Unlike the other categories of traits, religion traits can go away if you abandon your religion, as detailed below under Restrictions on Trait Selection.

The only mechanical restriction on deity and alignment is for those receiving divine magic. A lay person can honor/worship Asmodeus regardless of their alignment, meaning the trait would be ok.

Are you suggesting that the Religion Traits section of the rules is flavor and not rules text?

[CanisDirus]

Pirate Rob wrote:

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Pirate Rob wrote:

Mark Moreland said that the flavor section of traits is non-binding here.

So ignoring the flavor secrion which talks about being a current or former member we are left with:

Religion Trait: Demon Hunter
Requirement: Admodeus
You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about demons and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from demons.

By your logic, we must also ignore the flavor section from trait categories:

Quote:

Religion Traits: Religion traits indicate that your character has an established faith in a specific deity; you need not be a member of a class that can wield divine magic to pick a religion trait, but you do have to have a patron deity and have some amount of religion in your background to justify this trait. Unlike the other categories of traits, religion traits can go away if you abandon your religion, as detailed below under Restrictions on Trait Selection.

The only mechanical restriction on deity and alignment is for those receiving divine magic. A lay person can honor/worship Asmodeus regardless of their alignment, meaning the trait would be ok.

Are you suggesting that the Religion Traits section of the rules is flavor and not rules text?

How is the part I bolded not the same kind of "flavor" that are ignored from the text of the traits themselves? Note that I personally dislike when the "flavor" is ignored (if it has no flavor and only crunch, how is that different from eating sand?) but given Mark's ruling, this is how it has to be looked at.

My pirate character, who proclaims himself a follower of Besmara, could end up RPing with a Sarenite cleric who convinces him to worship Sarenrae instead, but he'd still be CN. By the rules (if he was eligible to buy a trait somehow after that point), he could get a Sarenrae religion trait, since he's a worshiper of Sarenrae.

I don't see why Demon Hunter is any different. If the character worships Asmodeus, they have access to the trait.

[nosig]

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Pirate Rob wrote:

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Pirate Rob wrote:

Mark Moreland said that the flavor section of traits is non-binding here.

So ignoring the flavor secrion which talks about being a current or former member we are left with:

Religion Trait: Demon Hunter
Requirement: Admodeus
You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about demons and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from demons.

By your logic, we must also ignore the flavor section from trait categories:

Quote:

Religion Traits: Religion traits indicate that your character has an established faith in a specific deity; you need not be a member of a class that can wield divine magic to pick a religion trait, but you do have to have a patron deity and have some amount of religion in your background to justify this trait. Unlike the other categories of traits, religion traits can go away if you abandon your religion, as detailed below under Restrictions on Trait Selection.

The only mechanical restriction on deity and alignment is for those receiving divine magic. A lay person can honor/worship Asmodeus regardless of their alignment, meaning the trait would be ok.

Are you suggesting that the Religion Traits section of the rules is flavor and not rules text?

How is the part I bolded not the same kind of "flavor" that are ignored from the text of the traits themselves? Note that I personally dislike when the "flavor" is ignored (if it has no flavor and only crunch, how is that different from eating sand?) but given Mark's ruling, this is how it has to be looked at.

My pirate character, who proclaims himself a follower of Besmara, could end up RPing with a Sarenite cleric who convinces him to worship Sarenrae instead, but he'd still be CN. By the rules (if he was eligible to buy a trait somehow after that point), he could get a Sarenrae religion trait, since...

actually, by the current rules, as explained in a number of other threads, a PC can not be a worshiper of any diety unless they are within one alignment step of that diety. And they may only count as a "worshiper" of one diety at a time. So... as it stands, this trait doesn't work as written, hence my original post. And why the answers above were throwing me off. Several multi-star judges were saying my friend could take the trait and NOT be a worshiper of Asmodaus... which seems to go against the rules.

Which is why I have advised him that there will be Table Variation (YMMV) if he wants to take this trait. Right now, some judges allow it, some would rule it doesn't work. As far as I can tell, without rhyme or reason.

Edit: (bolding mine) and currently in the campaign, a PC may not be a worshiper of a N/G diety and have an alignment of C/N (which I do not like, but those are the rules).

[ThorGN]

I have an Aasimar character who worships an Empyreal Lord. A major part of her backstory is that she was deceived by a daemon to worship a Deamon Lord. She greatly resents this and fights to rid the world of Deamon kind. This Daemon Hunter trait is a perfect fit for her. I don't like the idea of being banned from taking a trait for character reasons just because I don't worship an evil deity.