| curiosities |
| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Question unclear. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mostly lurk because a good search can usually turn up any info I need, but I have been having difficulty finding the answer to this question. Please note that I am looking for the sort of answer that I can bring to a GM, not an unsupported opinion. A well-supported interpretation might work however.
The big question: Do any teamwork feats work with dimensional savant?
Dimensional savant lets you flank with yourself. Teamwork feats require that you and an ally meet some particular criteria.
Are you your own ally?
Via FAQ:
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10
Does it makes sense in this context?
Some think it does, other do not. Some threads on the subject:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mznv?Dimensional-Savant#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nrxg?Dimensional-Savant-and-Teamwork-Feats#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ph3n?960-DPR-Dervisher#1
However, there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus from the masses. It seems as though this is a case where acting as your own ally makes sense. At the very least, Outflank should work, since you can flank with yourself in the first place. Either way, I don't think I'm alone in wondering what RAW or RAI is on the subject and clarification would be nice.
For reference:
Benefit: While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
| Skylancer4 |
RAW it should work.
RAI, not so much. Reason? Teamwork feats provide bonuses 'above and beyond' what a normal feat would because two characters invest in them and they require specific stipulations to be effective. I'm not sold on the feat(savant) bypassing that. Feats are more precious to certain classes and 'forcing' a choice to take teamwork feats means something at that point.
In a PFS game I see it working (RAW), in a home game I could definitely see a GM saying 'No' however.
| Troubleshooter |
When I read Sean's clarification, I imagine this:
A player of an oracle of battle 7 takes War Sight. War Sight, among other things, allows him to always act on the surprise round. By taking the Lookout (teamwork) feat, he now argues that he acts as his own adjacent ally, and grants himself the ability to use both a Standard and a Move action during surprise rounds through use of Lookout.
True, he serves as his own ally; he may count as adjacent, given that adjacent is often said to be within five feet; and if has the feats while he serves as his own ally, then his ally indeed has the feat. It seems legal!
Some GMs will be fine with this. Other GMs may feel that this steps on the design intent behind teamwork feats -- that they're meant for cooperation and tactics, and that a character can't act as a 'lookout' for herself even though it seems legal. So in this case, GMs having the ability to rule that characters may not act as their own allies when it doesn't make sense, creates a marriage between mechanics and realism.
Heh. Now I'm imagining a rogue taking Gang Up, Outflank, Paired Opportunists and a menacing weapon and arguing with a GM that she only needs any one ally threatening an opponent (from any space) in order to get her flanking benefits, including sneak attack.
While using the Dimensional feats, I don't think I have a conceptual problem with using Outflank with yourself. Flanking in of itself is a teamwork-based tactic, but Dimensional Savant allows you to use this teamwork-based tactic with just yourself. Outflank just serves to augment what you can already do.
Mechanically, I have a concern with it. Teamwork feats are sometimes a bit better than usual, but they're balanced by the fact that you cooperate with other creatures that have the feats. The ability to ignore that is a special ability of the Inquisitor, and to a lesser degree the Cavalier. The Dimensional feat chain is a demanding one, but is it so demanding that it should grant benefits similar to unique benefits of other classes? I'm not sure either way.
| Stazamos |
I think no, with the technicality of "ally who also has this feat". This implies that the "you count as your own ally" doesn't make sense, and so that clause doesn't come in. I believe the "also" is strong enough to require distinct creatures.
If the wording were instead, "whenever you and a creature with this feat flank...," I'd say it worked. As it is now, the wording is more like, "whenever you and another creature with this feat flank..." (just to put it in perspective).
That said, I'd allow it. But only one teamwork feat at a time, if the character has multiple. And for a counterexample, let's say there's a teamwork feat that grants you a boost to your reflex save when adjacent to another creature with that feat (I think there is indeed such a feat, but don't recall the details), and while you're dimension-hopping around, something triggers which causes the need for a reflex save (and it happens that you've hopped somewhere adjacent to your old location right before it happened). In that case, you can't help yourself save against it, even if the wording of the feat was the most favorable, such as "you and a creature with the feat". Unless it also said "including yourself", but I can't see that actually happening without it also mentioning Dimensional Savant, in which case, it's more obvious that would work.