|
You can click my name for details on my current build.
To sum up, I'm a tiefling cleric of Iomedae in the PFS Organized Play campaign. I'm sort of a melee/caster hybrid style (being able to shift between roles is valuable in PFS, due to random parties). Currently at 6th level, I plan to prep a handful of offensive or utility spells (blindness/deafness, pilfering hand, liberating command, daylight) and use a lot of my lower-level slots for self-buffs (divine favor, shield of faith, and also my 3rd-level domain slot is heroism).
I'm trying to decide on my 5th-level feat.
I pretty much have it narrowed down to Toughness or Power Attack. Toughness is nice, particularly since I'm not spending my FCBs on HP and I'm often in the front lines. But I'm having trouble judging Power Attack.
Here's the relevant info for that:
• I'm a sword-and-buckler guy, so I'm not planning to make my sword attacks one-handed.
• With no buffs up (and assuming I enchant my sword, which I'm pretty sure I will before Sunday), I'm at +8 to hit for 1d8+4. However, since heroism lasts so long and PFS scenarios tend to be kind of packed into a short in-game time frame, in most cases I'm probably at +10 to hit (basically like a full-BAB class at this level, only without an iterative attack).
• If I know a fight's coming, I can toss up a divine favor and be attacking for 1d8+6. (If I have heroism running, I'll be at +12 to hit, otherwise +10.)
Power Attack right now would be at -2/+4. So for a 6th-level PC with one attack and no bonus feats, is it worth the feat slot to use PA? If I do take it, do I only *use* it if I have both of my primary buffs (heroism, divine favor) running? Do I use it if I have just one of them running?
I've never really examined Power Attack for cases other than two-handed full-BAB styles, so I'm feeling a little lost. Any insight is appreciated. Thanks!
Hmm... are you truly set on just these two?
I guess my take is that toughness is one of the feats I tend to avoid, and power attack is best for full BAB and of limited value for 3/4 BAB, and just gets less good as you go higher and the BAB discrepancy grows...
Of the two? Sheesh, I guess just because I tend to favor offense over defense I'd take Power Attack. But I really find it hard to believe you don't have other, better options than either of these.
|
|
Hmm... are you truly set on just these two?
Yes. But even if I weren't, the discussion of math and value and returns and such would still be helpful for future characters and other thought processes, so let's keep the discussion focused on how Power Attack fares for a build like mine in PFS and whether it's worthwhile. :)
Hmm... are you truly set on just these two?Yes. But even if I weren't, the discussion of math and value and returns and such would still be helpful for future characters and other thought processes, so let's keep the discussion focused on how Power Attack fares for a build like mine in PFS and whether it's worthwhile. :)
*ears perk up* "Did someone say math?"
OK, when judging the merits of Power Attack for a build you can generally break it down into two numbers - let's call them B (for Boost) and C (for Crossover.) B is the extra DPR you get when fighting a low-AC monster (AC = your level + 10). C is the highest AC where you do better DPR by power-attacking than by regular attacking.
In your case, B is 0.8 because when you're attacking an AC 16 opponent, you do 8.0 damage power-attacking and 7.2 damage regular-attacking.
C is AC 23, because when you're attacking AC 24 you'd do 2.6 damage power-attacking and 2.7 damage regular-attacking.
So the AC range at which power attack is better is up to 23, but the extra damage is going to be a max of +0.8 and essentially scale linearly downwards. Targeting AC 16 you get +0.8, targeting AC 20 you get +0.4, targeting AC 23 you get +0.1. Basically your extra damage starts low and rapidly hits 0.
So in conclusion, it really isn't worth power attacking with a one-handed weapon for a 3/4 BAB class.
That was unbuffed.
Unbuffed: B = 0.8, C = 23
Heroism: B = 1.1, C = 25
Divine Favor: B = 0.7, C = 24
Heroism and Divine Favor: B = 1.2, C = 26
I'd recommend taking Improved Initiative instead.
|
|
That was unbuffed.
Unbuffed: B = 0.8, C = 23
Heroism: B = 1.1, C = 25
Divine Favor: B = 0.7, C = 24
Heroism and Divine Favor: B = 1.2, C = 26I'd recommend taking Improved Initiative instead.
I'm confused; why does it look like divine favor is less useful than heroism? They both give me +2 to hit. Shouldn't their individual numbers be the same?
I'm confused; why does it look like divine favor is less useful than heroism? They both give me +2 to hit. Shouldn't their individual numbers be the same?That was unbuffed.
Unbuffed: B = 0.8, C = 23
Heroism: B = 1.1, C = 25
Divine Favor: B = 0.7, C = 24
Heroism and Divine Favor: B = 1.2, C = 26I'd recommend taking Improved Initiative instead.
Power Attack does proportionally more damage the lower your normal damage is. If your normal damage is high, Power Attack is less useful, because you hit less often.
For example, say you have 14 str and are fighting two-handed with a whip. You'd normally do 1d4+3 for 5.5 damage, but using Power Attack you would do 8.5 damage instead. This is over a 50% increase on damage, so it's well worth the -1 to hit.
Now say you have 18 str and are fighting two-handed with a greatsword. You'd normally do 2d6+6 for 13 damage, and using Power Attack you'd do 16 instead. This is only a 23% increase on damage, so it's less worthwhile to take the -1 on attacks compared to if you're using the whip.
Point being, when you have the +2 damage from Divine Favor, the % damage increase from Power Attack is decreased, so Power Attack becomes less worth the to-hit price.
The numbers aren't percentages, B is in units of DPR and C is an AC.
|
|
Then why is B different for heroism versus divine favor? If "B" is how much more DPR I deal with PA compared to without, shouldn't two instances of identical to-hit numbers yield identical values of B, regardless of other damage numbers?
For example:
If a Heroism attack is at +10 for X damage, then B is based on +8 to hit and X+4 damage.
If a Divine Favor attack is at +10 for Y damage, then B is based on +8 to hit and Y+4 damage.
Why does the difference between X and Y matter? Shouldn't B yield the same number if both cases have the same to-hit?
Then why is B different for heroism versus divine favor? If "B" is how much more DPR I deal with PA compared to without, shouldn't two instances of identical to-hit numbers yield identical values of B, regardless of other damage numbers?
For example:
If a Heroism attack is at +10 for X damage, then B is based on +8 to hit and X+4 damage.
If a Divine Favor attack is at +10 for Y damage, then B is based on +8 to hit and Y+4 damage.
Why does the difference between X and Y matter? Shouldn't B yield the same number if both cases have the same to-hit?
No, B is not the same even with the same to-hit bonus because the -1 to-hit hurts worse when you do more damage. When Divine Favor is up, you're already doing a lot of damage and so the -2 hurts. When only Heroism is up, you're not doing very much damage so the -2 to-hit doesn't hurt as bad.
The difference between your X and Y values is important because the ratio of Power Attack damage (let's call it D) to your normal damage (X or Y) is important. If D/X > D/Y, then you get less benefit out of power attacking with Y compared to power attacking with X.
By the way, I did my numbers wrong because I was using -1/+2 instead of -2/+4. The real numbers are:
Unbuffed: B = 1.4, C = 22
Heroism: B = 1.9, C = 24
Divine Favor: B = 1.6, C = 23
Heroism + Divine Favor: B = 2.1, C = 25
Now let's look at Weapon Focus. There is no crossover (since you're always better off with Weapon Focus than without.) I'll define a new parameter, P (for premium) which is in units of DPR and tells you how much extra damage you do to someone with an AC = C. (That is, with PA you would do no extra damage to someone with AC = C, but with WF you do P extra damage to them.)
Unbuffed: B = 0.6, P = 0.5
Heroism: B = 0.6, P = 0.5
Divine Favor: B = 0.8, P = 0.7
Heroism + Divine Favor: B = 0.8, P = 0.7
So with Weapon Focus you will do less damage to low-AC enemies, but your damage boost is more consistent because it hardly decreases at high ACs.
Since the monsters you really care about are the ones who have high ACs anyway, you're probably better off with Weapon Focus than with Power Attack. If you wanted to, you could also define a "PA/WF crossover point" which is the AC at which PA does more DPR than WF. Just looking at the numbers, this PA/WF crossover wil be pretty close to (10 + your level + C)/2, so 19 unbuffed, 20 with Heroism, 19.5 with Divine Favor, and 20.5 with Divine Favor and Heroism. So if you're expecting to face monster with an AC above 20, use Weapon Focus instead of Power Attack.
This is true in general and is one reason I've always considered power attack to be a situational benefit. It is one of those feats that does your character less good when you need it the most. In other words, it helps you a lot against lower AC opponents and can actually HURT YOU against higher AC opponents.
The same is true of Deadly Aim.
This is a major reason I have repeatedly advised non full BAB characters that are extremely well built to avoid both power attack and deadly aim. Get something that ALWAYS helps. Or better yet, get something that works BETTER against TOUGHER opponents.
This is why I make threads like these. :)
LOL, I told you the same thing right off the bat, but without the math. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At this point I think I know more about Thomas' PFS cleric than I do about my own
At this point I think I know more about Thomas' PFS cleric than I do about my own
Hahah yeah with this kind of publicity campaign I'm just waiting for the movie...
I would suggest Warrior Priest or Improved Initiative, based on your build and playstyle.
Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus are the obvious ones. Other options would be Fortified Armor Training (because it's never good when an unlucky crit takes down the cleric,) Improved Channel to synergize with Sun domain, or Quick Channel (although this one is not as good when you can't selectively channel, but it could still come in handy.)
Yeah, I'm on the same page as RR.
Improved Initiative because your current +2 is kinda gnarly. You want to get your buffs up quickly, preferrably before anything can get at you or in your face. If you ain't first you're last...
I like Warrior Priest just for the mix of initiative and defensive casting help, though I would probably take Improved Initiative instead, in your case.
I would normally suggest Selective Channel, but not with your CHA.
I almost always take improved initiative for my casters. In fact not having improved initiative is one of my current pet peeves with my archer druid, but the archery feat tree is just too extensive for me to invest in even a feat as superior as improved initiative. It is hard to overstate how good it is to go early in combat if you are a buffer or battlefield controlling caster.
Also, I had the same reaction Lamontius did about cha and "selective channel".
I must admit that I am a fan of certain metamagic feats for party buffers, especially "extend spell" at low levels. However, you might be able to purchase metamagic rods which can provide the same benefit.
Improved initiative can give you time to get divine favor up, which is a fantastic spell, and already part of your calculations.
Or move to safety.
Or channel to make up for the trap damage that hit everyone.
Or cast resist energy once the fire elemental appears.
Or...you get the idea.