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So your telling me that a 18-20 str, stronger then Arnold in conan the barbarian human male only weights 175 lbs. I think not. If a player tried to pull that to try and get under the weight limit, I would probably just laugh at him as I told him hell no...but hey you game may vary. Honestly 200 is what I would consider the LOW end what is believable for such a person.
Yeah the weapon and shield is easy to send off on a separate trip...but that is once again in a none threat situation and honestly I don't care how you get across a chasm in those cases. I gloss over them. I don't toss out none encounters in hopes that the party members use up resources because that is kind of a dick move honestly. If the chasm is there, there is SOMETHING there. That something may see you bat flying around with all the martial weapons and shield. That something may do something about that. But hey once again your games may vary and a ferry service always works in your games (because they generally don't in mine...because like I said, if I place it on the map, it's an encounter of some sort...even if not visibly so at the start). But yes if you have useless chasm to encounter and beat, I will grant you that the summoner can be good for that at level 5...which still seems like a rather small blip honestly.
The belt does not break the hard no more then 50% rule, but it does break the soft 25% guideline for level 5...so yeah not a given by a LONG shot.
Why would I take acrobatics for a full plate fighter? Why is acrobatics even in this discussion? In anycase, since cutting and pasting from word seems to cause issues, posting full builds is kinda hard for me ATM (and no I am not typing up a full build in the little text box...working on it...new computer, windows 8...issues, I still owe wraith a wiz build as well).
See the difference you mentioned in luck, isn't LUCK...it's stupidity. Doing a DC13 anything with +10...good idea. Try a DC 17 with -1...BAD IDEA. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH LUCK. It has all to do with being stupid. Remember, I assume NOT STUPID. And yes player can make mistakes...but there is a difference between mistakes and just plain old stupid and rolling dice you have no chance with.
The pys dumped synth isn't a strawman since it was mentioned as an example of what is broken. It maybe considered cheesy...but it is not against the rules...exactly. A tactic that is pretty much a kill vs said legal yet cheesy build is a valid argument against said cheese.
So how does the archon know where to teleport? I would say unless the location you are teleporting him to is someplace you are very familiar with, you can not give reliable description of the place to teleport to. So yeah I suppose if you need messages sent back and forth from a home base (if you game has such a location) it could be nice...but seriously, your kinda grasping at staws here to try and get just the remote edge somehow...anyhow.
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No one will argue against the Synthesist being a great defensive tank type. But I'm still waiting to see how it's that and effective in combat. And your BBEG are still going to hit them over 25% of the time most likely for the first attack at least. Not to mention any BBEG that use touch attacks are still messing this guy up.
No one has also refuted the issue of how well the synthesist gets healed etc... which is to say, even with wands you're looking at expenses, and the spells just aren't plentiful enough to be constantly saving money by casting from the caster.
I just want anyone that's claiming the synthesist is broken to a) show how it is and b) provide a build.
Anyone that thinks it's unkillable, show a build, and if it unkillable I bet it's really not doing much else.
Synthesists are the best mounts in the game, bar none.
Outside of that they are not significantly better than Summoners, and the summoner arguably has it better.
Thus is my position.
Sir Reginald Dweeb
Human Paladin 2 / Synthesist 3By day Sir Reginald is a faded fixutre of the cloister, summoning celestial fluffy bunnikins for the attached Home for Abused Wandering Monsters and Petting Zoo, by night he is... ANGEL SUMMONER*
STR 13/19
DEX 7/13
CON 7/13
INT 14
WIS 14
CHR 20HP 25/40 +21(temp)
AC 8 (when unskinned, unless he's wearing some heavy armour and weilding a sheild, then higher)
AC 17 when fused - 21 with a Mage Armour, 25 with a Sheild spell, 30 when SmitingSaves:
Fort +7/+10
Ref +4/+7
Will +13Attack Sequence
Bite +9 d6+6 damage (+12 d6+12 when Power Attacking + Smiting)
2xClaw +10 d4+4 (+13 d4+10)Feats:
Power Attack
Craft Wand
Weapon Focus (Claws)
Toughness
(Could switch one of these for extra smiting)Eidolon:
Biped with Improved Natural Armour, Improved Ability (STR) and 2xBiteLower AC than you could get, but plenty of hitting. No equipment, but I'd go for a Belt of CON first, then an amulet of mighty fists with something funky in it...
*Apologies to Mitchell and Webb
Funky Badger, I think what is irritating here is that you try to show the strength of the synthesist with multiclassed builds - which does not prove anything about the synthesist archetype.
For example, in the above build, the saves of the summoner would absolutely suck without the optimizing paladin dip... :-P
But the Angel Summoner (and BMX Bandit) videos are great, I love them... :-D
@Funky Badger:
On a side note, I don't think the weapon focus is legit. The summoner is not proficient with claws, so he would not be able to take the feat.
Unless of course there is a FAQ that I overlooked that states some exceptions to the rule again ;-/
@Sangalor: I think the weapon focus is an arguable case (also for alchemists etc.)
I think the multi-classing potential does show something broken about the archetype - Synth improves pretty much any class you choose to pair it with (and lightly armoured martial - Rogue, Ninja, Monk, or type that gets static bonuses to damage - Barb, Ranger, Paladin)
You could argue that a Summoner X-2 / Other Class 2 is Stronger than Other Class X then there is something awry with the archetype...
GOing way, way back to the OP though. Maybe run the physical stats as bonuses, not replacements and possible dump the extra hit dice (factor it in as a higher CON bonus instead...)
I would actually argue it the other way given that all the examples I have seen posted on this thread so far have involved dips into other classes that specifically shore up some of the glaring weaknesses of the Sythesist in the first place.
There *aren't* any glaring weaknesses of the Synthesist, we've already covered that. :-)
Uhm, yes there are, and they have been stated repeatedly.
Saves is one example ;-)
And I second Irnk's opinion.
You see, I keep looking at this thread to understand what is supposed to be broken, so I can understand how this could be fixed. But I still haven't seen anything there, so I can't get this answer... :-(
The Synthesist gets crap Saves by comparison to a Vanilla Eidolon, also the only way to heal the Eidolon is with Rejuvenate Eidolon, which the Summoner has to cast instead of getting bitey.
Those are just off the top of my head. Those are pretty glaring weaknesses for a 'you can't kill it'...
Or is the smiley-face your way of saying you are agreeing with me?
Sangalor - saves are one good and two bad, just like most classes :-P
Short version: they get too much stuff, are too hard to kill, and unblance things for the rest of the party (and the GMs especially). Thread done.
:-)
Congratulations, you just described the Vanilla Summoner.
Sangalor - saves are one good and two bad, just like most classes :-P
Short version: they get too much stuff, are too hard to kill, and unblance things for the rest of the party (and the GMs especially). Thread done.
:-)
Uhm, other classes don't dump their physical stats this way and thus have better saves. And there are more classes with 2 or more good saves.
And "because I say so" does not make it true :-)
I would really like to see a pure synthesist build that lives up to the claims made in this thread. so far none has been presented... :-/
You disregard the fact that in both cases the other class has been one with strong saves across the board: Monks get all strong saves & a two level dip into Paladin allows the Summoner to add their CHA mod to ALL the saves, since they dumped their Physicals we can reasonably postulate they have a CHA Mod of at least +5, that's one quarter the total possible on a d20. Not to mention the fact that with two levels of Paladin they get a swift action self-heal a number of times per day that, shocking, is modified by their CHA, which neatly sidesteps one of the limiting factors of the Eidolon & hence the Synthesist, since the cheese-monkey in question can take advantage of Fused link to drain his own HP to refill the temp HP from the Synthesist Eidolon as a Free action & then LoH as a Swift. If you honestly think that hasn't been a contributing factor to the egregious behavior attributed to Synthesis Summoner's you are are at best disengenuos & at worst an outright liar.
By the way, if you bothered to read my original post regarding the Synthesist's weak points, I said it had Crap saves vs. a Vanilla Eidolon not in general, although it does have Crap saves for a Front-line Melee; Will is not the save you want to be best when you are considering a career as a damage sponge, particularly not when you get Evasion as a class feature.
My point regarding Rejuvanate Eidolon also stands, if you are casting it, you aren't dealing damage, not to mention, if you are casting a spell, or using a wand in melee you are asking to get AoE'd, maybe your Natural Armor is good enough to soak it, maybe not, but you had better pray the other guy doesn't get a nat 20, or you not only didn't get your spell off, you took more damage
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I should have been more specific:
Energy Draining - still viable, but you should be aware that armour properties can be placed on bracers of armour which are fully wearable by Synths. So their defences would be as good as A.N.Other character's.
Pits and Walls - this won't work for several reasons - ignoring situational effects (such as the probability of flight) - Dim Door and Teleport both work from within a Created Pit. Extraplanar is not Extradimensional. Even were that not the case - the lethality of your wall trick is very much at the whim of the DM, there is no official instant kill. Wall of Stone explicitly allows saving throws to avoid being trapped within or beneath it. At a push I'd likely rule if you failed the save you'd take damage similar to getting hit by a falling Wall of Iron, i.e. 10d6 reflex save for half.
Umm is the bracers of armor thing officially in the FAQ or errata? Because I don't see it. The devs posting their ideas on the forum has become less and less reliable sources of rules questions as they seem to contradict one and other or just says some flat out silly ruling in the heat of the discussion. Unless I see it in a FAQ or errata, I don't consider something like that a given. I certainly don't allow that in my game nor have I ever seen one where it is.
And about the pit...is that also in the FAQ or errata? Because once again a dev saying something in the heat of a discussion really means not so much it seems(and such a ruling has rather far reaching effects on not just the pit line of spells...which I would bet good money was not even remotely considered when such a ruling may have been made on the forum as a quick and heated answer) and I don't see such in either the FAQ or errata. If I am mistaken, please point me to the correct information.
In anycase, the death is less from getting crushed by the wall...which is pretty much a DM fiat thing anyways (and no I do not rule that you die from the wall when the pit goes away) and more to do with taking 4d6 damage a round for 11+ rounds with no way to escape. Possibly metamagiced for more damage (like say maximized via rod). 264 damage at level 11...pretty sure that is death.
And yes not everything I posted was for JUST the synth...but neither was the CDG in their sleep...so I fail to see how my tactics being valid on more then just the synth is an issue.
So your telling me that a 18-20 str, stronger then Arnold in conan the barbarian human male only weights 175 lbs. I think not. If a player tried to pull that to try and get under the weight limit, I would probably just laugh at him as I told him hell no...but hey you game may vary. Honestly 200 is what I would consider the LOW end what is believable for such a person.
So now you bring in pure houserules to the discussion? Also, you're in a game where people make fire out of bat guano, create alternate dimensions and summon angels - are you going to deny someone wanting to have the physical build (though of course, not AS strong) of Spiderman? Just look at Halil Mutlu in real life, able to lift 352 pounds over his head (thus rocking a Str of 19). He weighs about 120 pounds. Or, looking at 170 pounds (still below average) we have Oleg Perepetchenov who can lift 463 pounds over his head (thus having a Str of 21). And this is in the real world - why can't fantasy heroes be even better?
Yeah the weapon and shield is easy to send off on a separate trip...but that is once again in a none threat situation and honestly I don't care how you get across a chasm in those cases.
If you can use it to bypass an encounter or five it's a pretty darn powerful ability.
I don't toss out none encounters in hopes that the party members use up resources because that is kind of a dick move honestly. If the chasm is there, there is SOMETHING there.
Stop with this, now. Stop saying that people doing stuff differently from you are acting like dicks or bad DMing and whatever. I can play that game too: Just because your so-called adventures are a straight line from A to B with four equal-CR'd single encounters that can't be avoided doesn't mean everyone railroads that way.
See? I can do that to. Does throwing out random accusations barely based on the posted information any good? No, it doesn't, so stop it.
But hey once again your games may vary and a ferry service always works in your games (because they generally don't in mine...
Does something always have to work to be useful? I actually think it's rather verisimilitude-breaking that chasms, broken bridges, high mountains et cetera are generally guarded by something that easily eats Dire Bats.
I will grant you that the summoner can be good for that at level 5...which still seems like a rather small blip honestly.
Of course, it's not only at level 5. Summonings is more or less a non-resource, seeing how many the summoner has per day, and being able to do it freely is useful all the way up to level 10 or so where most has pretty free access to flight.
The belt does not break the hard no more then 50% rule, but it does break the soft 25% guideline for level 5...so yeah not a given by a LONG shot.
That applies only to characters created after level 1, not those that has actually played up to there.
Why would I take acrobatics for a full plate fighter? Why is acrobatics even in this discussion?
Because without it you're going to fall horribly as soon as there is a slight bump in the road. Okay that's an exaggeration but without acrobatics you can't move at more than half speed in like any kind of rubble and risk falling quite quickly. You can't move at full speed without making checks: In caverns, in stairs, on ice, on a 3ft wide ledge, and through rubble for example. If it's also considered difficult terrain, your movement is cut by 1/4th - for a 5th level character in full plate that means you'll move 5ft per round.
In anycase, since cutting and pasting from word seems to cause issues, posting full builds is kinda hard for me ATM (and no I am not typing up a full build in the little text box...working on it...new computer, windows 8...issues, I still owe wraith a wiz build as well).
Okay, then you'll just have to aknowledge that it's a shroedingers fighter where you can pull what you wish when you wish it. I mean, is it that hard to list an ability spread, 1 more feat and 1 more trait, and some extra skill points?
Try a DC 17 with -1...BAD IDEA. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH LUCK.
Because you always choose when you're about to make acrobatics checks.
Do we play different games?EDIT: And on the pit spell, note that 4d6 crushing damage is only 14 damage per round average, with a save for half, coming from a high-level character with quite high wealth (quicken metamagic rod is 75k). The party has quite a lot of time to get the synth out if that happens, although I do agree it's a good way of shutting it down. Should the synth be left alone, it still has quite a high chance of survival seeing the low duration of the spell. Also, it assumes the summoner has no way of getting out of the pit and that it can't dispel the pit (what happens if an extradimensional space is dispelled? you get shut out into the plane you came from, right?
So your telling me that a 18-20 str, stronger then Arnold in conan the barbarian human male only weights 175 lbs. I think not. If a player tried to pull that to try and get under the weight limit, I would probably just laugh at him as I told him hell no...but hey you game may vary. Honestly 200 is what I would consider the LOW end what is believable for such a person.So now you bring in pure houserules to the discussion? Also, you're in a game where people make fire out of bat guano, create alternate dimensions and summon angels - are you going to deny someone wanting to have the physical build (though of course, not AS strong) of Spiderman? Just look at Halil Mutlu in real life, able to lift 352 pounds over his head (thus rocking a Str of 19). He weighs about 120 pounds. Or, looking at 170 pounds (still below average) we have Oleg Perepetchenov who can lift 463 pounds over his head (thus having a Str of 21). And this is in the real world - why can't fantasy heroes be even better?
Yeah the weapon and shield is easy to send off on a separate trip...but that is once again in a none threat situation and honestly I don't care how you get across a chasm in those cases.If you can use it to bypass an encounter or five it's a pretty darn powerful ability.
I don't toss out none encounters in hopes that the party members use up resources because that is kind of a dick move honestly. If the chasm is there, there is SOMETHING there.Stop with this, now. Stop saying that people doing stuff differently from you are acting like dicks or bad DMing and whatever. I can play that game too: Just because your
so-called adventures are a straight line from A to B with four equal-CR'd single encounters that can't be avoided doesn't mean everyone railroads that way.See? I can do that to. Does throwing out random accusations barely based on the posted information any good? No, it doesn't, so stop it.
But hey once again your games may...
I don't agree with quite a few points from either of you.
@Cold Napalm: I think you are dismissing some things too quickly, and I agree with Ilja that some of your statements are rather typical of your games than the standard or prescribed by the rules.@Ilja: I think you are dismissing arguments brought forth by Cold Napalm and others too quickly as well. Summons have limited usability, and weight limits would usually be a problem there - at least with the equipment loaded party members I know. You also need to communicate with those critters if it's anything more complicated than "attack my closest enemy" which you basically get for free when summoning. And since you only get tongues as a 3rd level spell, it is not possible at the lately discussed 5th level here. Particularly for the communications with your dire bats this would be a problem, the archons wouldn't work without putting ranks into linguistics etc. So in practice this is not as great an option as it is portrayed here.
To address some points, here are some quick builds for comparison:
Dwarven Fighter
Dwarf Fighter 5
N Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision; Perception +6
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 23 (+10 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 39 (5d10+5)
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +6 (+1 vs. fear); +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities bravery +1, defensive training
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +8 (1d4+3/x2) and
. . +1 Longsword +10 (1d8+5/19-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +3) +8 (1d8+3/x3)
Special Attacks hatred, relentless, weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +8 (+10 Bull Rushing); CMD 20 (22 vs. Bull Rush, 20 vs. Trip)
Feats Additional Traits, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 jump), Appraise +1 (+3 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +3, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +6 (+8 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride -2, Stealth -2, Survival +5, Swim +3, Use Magic Device +11
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant
SQ greed, hardy, slow and steady, stonecunning +2
Other Gear +1 Full plate, +1 Mithral Heavy steel shield, +1 Longsword, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +3), Cloak of resistance +1, 1814 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Improved Bull Rush You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when bull rushing.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Relentless +2 Gain CMB bonus to bull rush/overrun while both self and foe stand on ground.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Darkvision, high ac, good saves with strengths against certain types of attacks, power attack & deadly aim, lots of money left for potions or other gear... The only drawback here is the slow speed, which could be addressed the next level.
Monk Brawler
Human Fighter (Brawler) 3 Monk (Maneuver Master) 2
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +8
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +3 shield, +1 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 41 (3d10+2d8+10)
Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +7 (+1 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +1, evasion
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +10 (1d4+10/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +10 (1d6+8/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +5) +6 (1d8+5/x3)
Special Attacks close combatant +1/+3
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +9 (+10 Bull Rushing, +10 Dragging, +11 Grappling, +10 Repositioning); CMD 21 (22 vs. Bull Rush, 22 vs. Drag, 23 vs. Grapple, 22 vs. Reposition)
Feats Additional Traits, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 12)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +7, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +8, Ride +3, Stealth +5, Survival +5, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +11
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ flurry of maneuvers (1 maneuver, -2), stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike (1d6)
Other Gear +2 Chain shirt, +1 Heavy steel shield, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +5), Belt of giant strength +2, 180 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Close Combatant +1/+3 (Ex) +1 to hit and +3 damage with close weapons.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Flurry of Maneuvers (1 maneuver, -2) (Ex) At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in pl
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 12) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
This guy has great defenses (saves, evasion etc.), though I might consider boosting his AC more instead of his strength.
He two-hands his heavy shield for good damage, particularly with power attack. He can fight well unarmed and deliver status effects as well. Ranged enemies are taken down with a bow, thanks to deadly aim he deals decent damage as well.
Both can use wands rather reliably, and they have funds left for some potions and ordinary gear. Acrobatics are no problem for ordinary situations, and they both got some tricks up their sleeves.
Note that both have been built with 15 point-buy and bought traits with the additional traits feat. They come out much nicer with higher point-buy or the common 2 traits.
These are not damage optimized (or min-maxed) characters, but capable combatants with good survivability. And they could be used for comparisons in our discussion :-)
Even without a paladin dip the syntesist saves are better than average.
How many fighters/barbarians can match the dex the syntesist from the eidolon? - Only dexbased or 2wf's...
Fort saves - with the standard 15 point buy -the eidolons get a better con modifer than most fighters..
Will save - why should he dump wis? it a good save. And then the syntesist gets +2 and later +4 to his saves as a bonus... Nope saves isn't his weak side.
As for healing the eidolon... Really in my campagion the syntesist had few problems at low levels with poison, that made his eidolon disapear, but after lvl 8(when he turned large) the only thing that really did a little damage was channel neg energy. (he saved for ½, but still could escape the ½ dam..
And the a few encounters where attacking with natural weapons did damage.. Not anything that brought him under my battle oracles max HP, but still damaga...
Pits. The Syntesist flyes. What's the problem?
Every single multiclass option involving a Synth is grimly strong... hmmm, what's the common factor?
They are all Multi-Class Builds with dips into classes that shore up the Synthesists weak-points?
You want to prove your posit? Post a build where the Synthesist is the dip, otherwise you are blowing smoke. Better yet, post a single class high level Synthesist that has actually survived to high level & I will consider your views valid.
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I know that 15pts is considered normal, but you look at PFS and what alot of people play, and the norm really seems to be high fantasy 20pt builds.
Also the above lvl 5 build can't take craft wands until lvl 5 synth, (5th lvl caster required, not lvl 5 character I don't think you can add two caster levels together, but whateves. take your extra smite.)
@Ilja: I think you are dismissing arguments brought forth by Cold Napalm and others too quickly as well. Summons have limited usability, and weight limits would usually be a problem there - at least with the equipment loaded party members I know. You also need to communicate with those critters if it's anything more complicated than "attack my closest enemy" which you basically get for free when summoning. And since you only get tongues as a 3rd level spell, it is not possible at the lately discussed 5th level here. Particularly for the communications with your dire bats this would be a problem, the archons wouldn't work without putting ranks into linguistics etc. So in practice this is not as great an option as it is portrayed here.
You're probably right - while I don't think the weight problem is that big (unless you've got half-orcs or some heavy non-standard race), communication can be an issue. I think I got frustrated because I felt Cold Napalm was very aggressive, ignoring obvious things and going all Shroedinger (and GOD am I tired of arguing against the Shroedinger's Build, regardless of class).
But you're right, communications is a large issue. While I think summoners should keep their linguistics at close to max (synths get quite decent skill points and not that many important class skills for most builds) that doesn't help with the bats.
I do think that the fighter is a bit low on offense for it's level though - At 5th level your attack damage is still single-digit average before PA and just 13.5 after, meaning that if you're fighting say an average CR4 creature it'll take about 4 rounds to down it. Of course it depends heavily on your party, is your party good at buffing offense or dealing damage it might be well enough. And of course this is just averages - it does have have a pretty good reliability.
Though the acrobatics might still be an issue (I generally prefer to keep to medium armor until I have at least +7 acrobatics in heavy), that might differ based on playstyle and how common different conditions are. For adventures mostly on quite plain ground it should suffice.
This fares FAR better offensively, since it can both grapple, bull rush etc and deal a lot more damage. It's damage averages 18.5 which is good. It's saves are great, it's AC is pretty decent. It's quick enough. It's a good debuffer and can make good use of the environment with reposition and bull rush.
We could do a comparison to the synthesist Seranov posted and I altered (because it was really, really unoptimized) here. Just with those changes mentioned there as well as a ability score layout of 7/8/11/14/14/16(+2lvl)(+1lvl). Note that it's still not really optimized as biped is arguably the worst form of a synthesist and it's still got that random equipment. The extra skill points go into acrobatics (though god I would've respecced those skill points).
Feel free to state if you feel this is an unfair comparison or that other things should be taken into it. I do want a fair discussion on this.
On hit points: Dwarf 39, Monk 41, synth 41+46. Here the synth wins out hands down - it has more than their total.
On saves: Dwarf +8/+6/+8 (vs spells), Monk +8/+5/+7, Synth +7/+6/+8. Quite even, everyone has great saves for their level. Note that I lowered the cloak of resistance +3 to a +2 since 9k on a 5th level character's item is very, very unusual.
On AC: Dwarf 25, Monk 21, Synth 22. Dwarf wins out by a fair amount. (Note that the synth had +2 Shield bonus to AC that I have no idea where it was from so I scratched it). Touch AC is 12 for everyone.
On CMD: Dwarf 20, Monk 21, Synth 20 (I think, might be higher). Quite even.
Other defenses: All characters have some minor bonus here and there, but the larger ones IMO are that both the monk and synth has Evasion and decent reflex saves, and that the Synth can use evolution surge to get specific defenses when needed. I think the synth wins this one, but not by a huge amount.
On movement: Dwarf 20ft (Acr+3), Monk 30 ft (Acr+7), Synth 30 ft (Acr+7). None has some unusual movement method. The dwarf is the only one with real issues here, though they aren't game-breaking. Of special note is that the monk can pop Ki to boost and also has better Climb and Swim scores, while the Synth has Haste. So in a party with no other haster, Synth wins out slightly, but in one with another haster, Monk wins out with quite some margin. Note that the synthesist can cast Evolution Surge to get other types of movement quite easily, including flight.
On senses: Dwarf Perception +5 (Darkvision), Monk Perception +8, Synth Perception +3 (Darkvision). Outside darkness, synth loses. In darkness dwarf wins. Again, if the synthesist knows it needs a specific sense or similar it can use evolution surge to get it.
Melee Attack bonus: Everyone has 8 with PA so it's a tie.
Melee Damage: Dwarf 1d8+9 (13.5) with 19+ crit. Monk 1d4+16 (18.5). Synth standard attack 1d4+8+1d6 (14), full attack 4d4+32+4d6 and if at least two hits it's 1d4+6+1d6 extra. Crits however only deal 2d4+16+1d6. Here's the biggest biggie of them all. While the dwarf has issues with damage the synthesist just rips everything to shreds. Granted, some of this may be wasted if you're fighting lots of low-CR skirmishers, but against many opponents it's just huge. And note that even standard attacks by the Synth deals higher average than those of the dwarf.
Ranged Combat: Here the synth has no real option and is left to buffing party members, summoning Mounts to act as cover, or what have you. The monk and dwarf both win this one hugely, and that should not be underestimated as a weakness of the synthesist.
"Other offense": The dwarf basically can just hit stuff, while the Monk is a good grappler, bullrusher, et cetera and can also use stunning fist. The synth has some options - casting Haste is a very good option if no-one else is doing it, and sometimes summoning monsters can be useful, but I think it's fair to say that the monk wins this one with a fair margin.
Sum: I think the synthesist wins out offense, but the monk ain't half-bad either with all it's debuffs. The dwarf really lacks offensively unless your party is very offensively-minded.
On other abilities: The monks ability to pop ki to get additional movement is worth noting, but I think the biggie here is that the synth is very versatile - even disregarding the summoning powers that can't be used when in eidolon armor, it can use Evolution Surge to get quite large buffs as needed by the situation, and access to Haste changes combat quite a lot for a party (though it may be available from other sources to).
When it comes to movement, I think the monk wins out but only slightly, seeing as how the synthesist can adjust to different situations (though only a few times each day) and the dwarf lagging far behind.
Offensively, the synth outshines the others in melee by quite a large margin, and the dwarf might have issues even pulling it's own weight. The largest drawback of the synth is the complete lack of ranged offense, which can sometimes be solved through evolution surge (wings) but not always.
When it comes to versatility, I think the synth wins out.
So the things the synth in this case was noticably behind in was ranged attacks as a very big one, and one shouldn't forget it was behind a fair bit when it comes to senses too. It also, like the dwarf, has one main answer to enemies: Hit them in the face. It's useless at debuffing, which the monk isn't. It isn't very good at all at taking enemies alive which can often be useful, though even with the -4 nonlethal penalty it's damage might be enough to knock out low AC enemies.
As a sidenote I'm not completely sure the synth is correctly built - haven't doublechecked all the secondary numbers that aren't mentioned here. One thing that is sure is that it's under-geared since I dropped the cloak of resistance by 5k gp and there seems to be no other expensive items on the sheet at all - these GP could probably go into some defensive items like RoP or towards some ranged options like a few scrolls of create pit, or maybe a page of spell knowledge or two.
@Ilja: I think you are dismissing arguments brought forth by Cold Napalm and others too quickly as well. Summons have limited usability, and weight limits would usually be a problem there - at least with the equipment loaded party members I know. You also need to communicate with those critters if it's anything more complicated than "attack my closest enemy" which you basically get for free when summoning. And since you only get tongues as a 3rd level spell, it is not possible at the lately discussed 5th level here. Particularly for the communications with your dire bats this would be a problem, the archons wouldn't work without putting ranks into linguistics etc. So in practice this is not as great an option as it is portrayed here.You're probably right - while I don't think the weight problem is that big (unless you've got half-orcs or some heavy non-standard race), communication can be an issue. I think I got frustrated because I felt Cold Napalm was very aggressive, ignoring obvious things and going all Shroedinger (and GOD am I tired of arguing against the Shroedinger's Build, regardless of class).
But you're right, communications is a large issue. While I think summoners should keep their linguistics at close to max (synths get quite decent skill points and not that many important class skills for most builds) that doesn't help with the bats.
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks for taking your time of answering thoroughly :-)
I agree with a lot of your analysis. I have a few problems with the synthesist summoner used for the comparison, though:
1. Taking rend does not work since it requires a 6th level summoner. This reduces damage output
2. I tried to rebuild the synthesist summoner in hero lab. I can't get the stats right, it seems. I tried (from your comments) to go for 7 str, 8 dex, 11 con, 14 int, 14 wis, cha 19 (16 base, +2 human, +1 level bump). This gives me 28 hp for the summoner in his base form, 33 if I assign favored class bonus to hitpoints - not 41. The Eidolon I only get to Con 16 with a +1 stat bump and ability increase (constitution) evolution, resulting in 43 hitpoints - how do I get this to 46?
3. How do you get 22 AC on the summoner? I get 4 from the eidolon, 2 from shielded meld, 2 from base form, 2 from the dex bonus - which leads me to a total of 20. What am I missing?
4. Aren't there evolution points unspent? I see 8 evolution points available at level 5, which means (assuming claw biped baseform): 1 for claws, 2 for energy attacks (elictricity), 2 for ability increase (I assumed constitution). This takes up 5 points. 3 are left to spend - or am I wrong? What would you pick then? Wings? That would be another 2, but then you couldn't have taken rend...
Could someone, maybe you, do a complete build of it? Or point me to the errors, particularly what the base stats have been? I am confused here, and neither hero lab not reading the description helps me here...
So I am not sure if your analysis is correct, at least until I see a complete and correct build which matches (or maybe exceeds) it.
Still, assuming what you have there was correct, I agree with most of what you analyzed. I disagree on the eidolon taking damage: At level 5 a summoner has 4 1st and 2 2nd level spells, 5 and 3 if charisma is high enough. Assuming he gets hit as the other characters and you need to heal him, lesser rejuvenate eidolon restores 10 hps on average. So if you need to heal him completely, it would already head about half your daily spells. Mind you, that's not terrible - but you don't have much left for other things.
If the summoner sacrificed all his HPs to keep him up (and thus getting the more readily standard HP cure) that can be alleviated, but it's highly dangerous if any effects get through to him.
I built two different characters to address different claims:
Dwarf - fighters can rock high ACs, have good senses, good saves, good chances to use wands and stuff. Thus I left him with lots of gold to get consumables to shore up weaknesses or boost his attacks and versatility.
If damage output optimization was the goal, we could give him a scimitar, swap skill focus or improved bull rush for quick draw, get a light quickdraw shield. This would lower AC by 1 (still much better than the synthesist's), but allow him to put on and put away his shield as a free action (description of the shield in combination with quick draw). He can thus two-hand his scimitar, greatly increasing the output of power attack. Stats can be rearranged as well, resulting in the following:
Dwarven Fighter #2
Dwarf Fighter 5
N Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision; Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 22 (+10 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 39 (5d10+5)
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +5 (+1 vs. fear); +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities bravery +1, defensive training
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Light Shield Bash +9 (1d3+4/x2) and
. . +1 Scimitar +11 (1d6+8/18-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +3) +8 (1d8+3/x3)
Special Attacks hatred, relentless, weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +9 (+11 Bull Rushing); CMD 21 (23 vs. Bull Rush, 21 vs. Trip)
Feats Additional Traits, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Quick Draw
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 jump), Appraise +0 (+2 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +4, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Perception +2 (+4 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride -2, Stealth -2, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ greed, hardy, slow and steady, stonecunning +2
Other Gear +1 Full plate, +1 Mithral Light steel quickdraw shield, +1 Scimitar, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +3), Cloak of resistance +1, 1814 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Improved Bull Rush You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when bull rushing.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Relentless +2 Gain CMB bonus to bull rush/overrun while both self and foe stand on ground.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Thus we have +9/1d6+14 with power attack...
Monk - This was to show how multiclassing with monks/pallys/etc. boosts saves and other weaknesses. As you said it's much nicer, so there my reasoning is confirmed ;-P
Generally, those martials are supposed to be boosted (party members) or output consistent damge. DR won't be a problem due to flexibility of materials, though it's not yet that common.
Level 5 seems to be a good level, though, for the synthesist, assuming the synthesist above is correct and the weaknesses don't show up (rejuvenate eidolon required, synthesist can't always be kept on or is removed or unavailable due to circumstances, no social troubles etc.).
This is primarily due to the number of natural attacks it can get with evolutions. This is difficult to achieve with other single-classed characters, unless you choose a race that offers it.
Just for the exercise I built a mix here that gets as many attacks on that level as the synthesist, more in 2 levels:
Natural Weapon Barb Mnk Rgr Mix
Half-Orc Barbarian 2 Monk (Martial Artist) 1 Ranger (Guide) 2
N Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +0; Senses darkvision; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 8, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +2 shield)
hp 61 (2d12+2d10+1d8+25)
Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +6
Defensive Abilities uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +9 (1d4+11/x2) and
. . Bite (Toothy) +8 (1d4+6/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast)) +8 x2 (1d4+6/x2) and
. . Gore (Fiend Totem, Lesser) +8 (1d8+6/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +10 (1d6+12/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows -1/-1, rage (13 rounds/day), rage powers (fiend totem, lesser), ranger's focus +2 (1/day)
Ranger (Guide) Spells Prepared (CL 0):
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +11 (+13 Grappling); CMD 19 (21 vs. Grapple)
Feats Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast), Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack -2/+4, Raging Vitality, Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 14)
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb +10, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Heal +6, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (nature) +8, Perception +10, Ride +0, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +1, Survival +6 (+7 to track), Swim +7
Languages Common, Orc
SQ combat styles (natural weapon), fast movement +10, stunning fist (stun), track, unarmed strike (1d6), wild empathy
Other Gear +1 Agile breastplate, Masterwork Heavy steel shield, Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of giant strength +2, 780 GP
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Special Abilities
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Fiend Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain d8 gore attack while raging
Flurry of Blows -1/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (13 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Ranger's Focus +2 (1/day) (Ex) +2 to hit and damage focused target.
Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 14) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Wild Empathy +1 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Stats above are shown while raging, 13 rounds per day would be enough for the typical 3-4 encounters with 3-4 rounds on average per day. AC is less than that of the ones above, though a non-raging 19 isn't bad. DR 2/- and 61 HP are quite decent and should buffer quite a bit. Attack sequence while raging and power-attacking would be
unarmed strike/gore/bite/claw/claw for
+10/+8/+8/+8/+8 for 1d6+12/1d8+6/1d4+6/1d4+6
So this one hits better on the main attack, and as well as the synthesist on the later attacks.
Saves 13/5/6 - fortitude is really good, will is ok.
But as stated, that's just for illustration purposes :-)
As stated before, I agree with much of your analysis, but note completetly. Particularly for the dwarf items are still an option, and the versatility isn't as great for the synthesist if he needs his spells for his eidolon (healing) etc. - he just does not have that many spells on this level. His summons can't keep up since he has not invested into it (such as the augment summoning feat). Communication we have discussed as well, so though I would not discount them, they are a very strong option.
So the synthesist - again assuming it's built correctly - is a nice package, but in no way overpowered with the shortcomings it has :-)
EDIT: I again may be overlooking something, but how do you get the +8/+8/+8/+8 with power attack? That would mean a +10 without, so taking the stats there and the proposed weapon focus (claw) feat, you would be at +4 BAB +4 STR + 1 WF = +9, leading to a +7 to hit...
...
@sangalor - those are nice characters, especially like the monk-brawler
...
Thanks, I like versatile characters more myself :-)
...
- in comparison though, Sir Dweeb and the monk-synth I posted earlier have got 60% more hitpoints, higher AC, more attacks, spellcasting etc. (Isn't this where we came in?)
:-)
That is no single class summoner, which was the point I made with the monk-mix - dipping makes it easier. And it got drawbacks the other characters don't have. Plus it won't increase at the same rate the other characters will - so I disagree here ;-)
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I like those saying that the synth is banned for it being too powerful from PFS. (not really)
Until I see someone actually post some quotes saying something brock etc saying "it was banned because it's too powerful" rather than "the official it doesn't fit with the flavor we're going for, also here are several death themed archetypes that are no longer legal!"
I think anyone advocating dipping the monk 2 levels is being a bit silly unless you really really want that wisdom bonus to AC, you're better off going for Paladin for saves, or fighter or ranger for feats.
Fixing the synthesist is incredibly easy. You just don't let manufactured weapons and natural attacks exceed the max normal attacks, you don't let regular fighters toss in extra natural attacks so that they can get an additional 1-3 attacks on top of twf, and lastly you don't allow people to dump two plus stats.
the above paragraph sums up all the abuse that happens with synthesists, that's actually been identified in this thread and in any other I've seen.
I agree with a lot of your analysis. I have a few problems with the synthesist summoner used for the comparison, though:
1. Taking rend does not work since it requires a 6th level summoner. This reduces damage output
Gah, didn't catch that. Sub that for Wings then. Damage output is 48 avg for full attack and 14 avg for single attack, no extras.
2. I tried to rebuild the synthesist summoner in hero lab. I can't get the stats right, it seems. *snip* This gives me 28 hp for the summoner in his base form
Since the synth uses the eidolon's ability score modifiers, it's hit points when melded should be (SumHD)d6+(SumHD)(EidCon)+(EidHD)d10+(EidHD)*(EidCon). So the synths own hit points when melded is 5d8+20 if the synth has an 18 con. The hit points on the char sheet could very well be off though, if they rolled for HP.
3. How do you get 22 AC on the summoner?
+8 natural from Eidolon (2 from biped, +4 from levels and +2 from improved natural armor evolution), +4 armor from Mage Armor (lasts for five hours and he's got a bunch of scrolls in addition to his spells so it's fair to assume it's up), +2 shielded meld, +2 dex - I forgot completely about shielded meld and thought the shield bonus was an error or that it wielded a shield due to no claws on hands, but it's there, and imp nat armor was just noted in the abilities section and not included so AC should be 26 rather than 22 - even higher than the dwarfs.
4. Aren't there evolution points unspent? I see 8 evolution points available at level 5,
Imp Nat Armor 1pt, Claws 1pt, Ability Increase 2pt, Electric Attacks 2pt and then Wings instead of Rend 2pt.
Here's a build that should be complete, can't swear on it though since I've got a fever and it's 1 AM here xD.
KHIRO NEMA
Human Synthesist 5
N Medium Humanoid (human)/outsider
Init +2; Senses darkvision; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 12, flat-footed 26 (+10 natural, +2 shield, +2 Dex, +4 Armor)
hp 41+34 (8+4d8+15+4d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +8
Defensive Abilities Shielded Meld
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.; Fly 30ft (good)
Melee Power-Attack Claws +9/+9/+9/+9 (1d4+10+1d6)
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 19
Base Atk +4; CMB +9; CMD 21
Feats Extra Evolution, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Claws)
Skills Acrobatics +7, Fly +10, Handle Animal +8, Linguistics +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (the Planes) +8, Perception +7, Use Magic Device +10
Evolutions Claws (x2 1pt), Limbs (legs), Limbs (Arms), Energy Attack (electric 2pt), Wings (2pt), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2pt) Ability Score Increase (Str+2, 2pt), 9 total (8+1feat).
Languages Common, Infernal, Celestial, Abyssal, Ignan, Auran, Elven, Dwarven.
Human Eye for Talent (+2con), Skilled; Eidolon Darkvision, Shielded Meld, Evasion, Share spells, Fused Link, Bond Senses
Other Gear Cloak of Resistance +2, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Wand of Mage Armor, Wand of Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, other stuff (total 7500 gp).
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Special Abilities
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Power Attack -2 attack for +4 damage.
AC abilities specs Shielded meld +2 Shield, Natural armor +2 biped, +4 level, +4 imp natural armor, +4 mage armor, +2 dex.
Spells Known (~/5/3 per day, Concentration +9, Caster level 5, DC 14+level)
1st: Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser; Mage Armor; Enlarge Person; Alarm
2nd: Haste, Lesser Evolution Surge, Wind Wall
I'm to tired to do a new comparison between this new summoner and your altered builds tonight, I'll probably do one tomorrow if you haven't beaten me to it. Nightynight :).
389 posts of relatively easy, at this rate I am going to just start publishing cliff notes books that are the exact same size and wordcount as the books they are based on.
I am sitting on a goldmine.
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eye for talent will not work on Eidolon as it's not "... an animal companion, bonded mount, cohort, or familiar,"
This of course can be made up for by just selecting "toughness" as a feat. Also don't forget the hp from the summoner is straight half (not half d10+1 per die like characters as it's summoned)
your to hit should be +4 BAB +1 weapon focus +1 AOMF +5 str. Unless there's something I'm missing, that should be +11 to hit, and damage should be 1d4 +5(str)+1AoMF+1d6. Not sure where the +10dmg is coming from. Even if for some reason you were adding 1.5x str it'd only be +8dmg not +10. Or were you pre-factoring in power attack?
Your base saves are 1/1/4 with stat bonuses (I'm removing your +1 fort) shielded meld and cloak makes is 5/5/8 then add your stat bonuses for 7/7/10
Serves me right for doing it in this condition, of course it had errors... I'm lucky they weren't all in my favor though.
eye for talent will not work on Eidolon as it's not "... an animal companion, bonded mount, cohort, or familiar,"
Oh. You're right. It was in the original sheet and I didn't double check. Sorry for that. I'll swap it for Dodge then instead (a feat for +5 hp really isn't worth it).
Also don't forget the hp from the summoner is straight half (not half d10+1 per die like characters as it's summoned)
What do you mean? The summoner's hit points are 6+4d6 (5d6 first maxed) plus Con*5. Eidolon's HP is 4d10 + Con*4.
were you pre-factoring in power attack?
Yep, that's what the line says ;)
Your base saves are 1/1/4 with stat bonuses (I'm removing your +1 fort) you end up with 3/4/6 then shielded meld then cloak adds four to each, so 7/8/10
Thanks, that should be correct.
I'll update the sheet and then go to bed.
HP should also be 25 (5xd8hp) + 10(con) so 35 hp base, with 4d10 (does not get the half +1 treatment) so 24 temp hp.
So final hp looks like 35(24) or if you got toughness 40(24)
What do you mean half+1? The eidolon does get it's con bonus to hit points, or is it some errata I've missed?
EDIT: Since I can't change the original build, this is what is different:
AC 29, touch 13, flat-footed 26 (+10 natural, +2 shield, +2 Dex, +4 Armor, +1 dodge)
HP 36+30 (8+4d8+10; 4d10+8)
Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +10
Ability scores Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 19
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ah sorry forgot the first hd is maxed, so I shorted you two hp.
When you average HD for PCs you take the hd halve it then add one (d6 is 4hp, d8 is 5, etc) With summoned creatures, you simply halve the max hp without adding +1, so d6 would be 3, d8 4 etc...)
I still included the con bonus, but the eidolon does not start with a maxed hd at 1st lvl, (animal companions don't either)
so 4hd = max of 40hp, so 20. Add a con modifier of +2 that's 28hp (blearg more math failure) so basically we have 37(28)
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Then you're lvl 11 before you can first be huge, level 13 before you get the lvl 10 abilities, and are behind on evolutions and caster levels. (which the caster levels I realize are moot, but still a consideration) The stronger you make this defensively the more you dilute and weaken it's offenses.
Again, back to the whole you can make it a bastion of defense that's nearly impregnable, but then it's like so what? (and to top it off, it's STILL able to be killed by AMF, things that don't care about saves or resists (magic missile baby, enervation!)
When you average HD for PCs you take the hd halve it then add one (d6 is 4hp, d8 is 5, etc) With summoned creatures, you simply halve the max hp without adding +1, so d6 would be 3, d8 4 etc...)
That sounds like a house rule - the rule is that you roll; but when theorycrafting you usually take average on all rolls instead - so summon HD is 4.5, while eidolon HD is 5.5.
Text
You fighter looks fine, though I have some questions about the Barb/Monk/Ranger (I'll still call it monk as I did previously for simplicity's sake):
1. How does it gain 13 rounds of rage? Those ability scores look like they're post-rage, so standard Con should be 14 (if it's 20 with raging vitality). That would mean 4+2+4 rounds of rage right? 10 rounds isn't bad but it's not going to be able to keep that up a full day unless your campaign has very few combats per day (like the beginning of Kingmaker for example). Remember that due to fatigue, running out of rage is far worse than any other buff ending.
2. How did you get that unarmed attack bonus? I may have missed something, but this is what I can see: +4 BAB +7 Str +1 AoMF -2 PA, -4 TWF = +6. I see no +4 bonus from anywhere, and assume you simply forgot the TWF penalty for combining with natural attacks - in the comparison below I'll use +6, but feel free to correct me if I missed something.
Also I think 3-4 encounters per day as typical is a bit low - the CR system is based around 4 encounters per day as typical, so 3-5 encounters would be more fair I think. I don't think the non-raging AC is relevant as it's still low and the character will have very bad offense and defense at that point.
Okay I'll redo the comparison with the new builds:
On saves: Dwarf +8/+6/+7, Monk 13/5/6, Synth 7/7/10. Monk wins out bigtime on fortitude saves, being more or less immune to fort-based stuff at this point, while the synth wins out on will saves.
On AC: Dwarf AC24;T12;CMD21, Monk AC17/T8/CMD19, Synth 29/T12/CMD21. Okay, here's the defensive difference between the monk and Eidolon, and it's quite stunning. An enemy that needs a 5 to hit the monk will need a 17 to hit the synthesist - this makes the hit points of the monk much less valuable. It should be noted that the average high attack of a CR5 monster is +10, meaning it needs a 7 to hit the monk, a 14 to hit the dwarf (basically doubling it's relative HP compared to the monk) and a 19 to hit the Synth.
Other defenses: Monk has DR2/- which is great and uncanny dodge, but with no dex bonus that's pretty marginal. Eidolon has the benefit of flight and evasion and the dex to use it.
On senses: Dwarf +3 (DV), Monk Per+10 (DV), Synth Per+7 (DV). Everyone has darkvision, monk wins out and dwarf loses.
Melee Attack bonus: Dwarf +9, Monk +6/+8/+8/+8/+8, Synth +9/+9/+9/+9.
Melee Damage: Dwarf 1d6+14, Monk 1d6+12/1d8+6/(1d4+6)*4 Synth (1d4+10+1d6)*4.
Ranged Combat: Dwarf +6 (1d8+7), Monk neglible, Synth Flight. This depends a lot on the circumstances, why you use ranged weapons. I can see the dwarf and synth both having an edge here - against flying enemies the synth can join in melee instead, but to readied-shot-lock casters the dwarf wins out.
"Other offense": The dwarf can push people, the monk can grapple and the summoner can Haste occacionally. More importantly, the summoner can Enlarge itself several times per day, gaining reach and improved damage. This is matched by the monk's ranger focus ability that's easy to activate but 1/day only and adds huge bonuses.
Since things has changed a bit, builds have gotten more complex and so, I'm going to do a few simple DPR calculations too. If you disagree with any of the premisses, feel free to set up others and do additional calculations or I might do them if my fever allows. I like numbers and theorycrafting is fun, even though I value it lower than gameplay experience in terms of evidence.
The target will be an average CR5 by the bestiary, and of course the results will be different in the real game so take it with a lot of salt. It can still point in a general direction. I'll assume the first attack they get is a standard attack and after that it's full attacks.
I will also make a defensive/HP based DPR calculation - this does not take into account saves et cetera, but I felt that the HP-survival abilitiy differences (AC, HP, DR) where so large that it's useful. Since defensive DPR is easy to do, I'll do two different: One where the attackers will be three average CR4 creatures, a CR7 encounter, because I feel defenses are most needed when the encounter is hard. I wanted an encounter with more than one opponent because I felt doing otherwise would be unfair to the high-hp-DR monk. The other encounter is more of a BBEG encounter with a single CR7 opponent with two attacks. For these, I'll just make full attacks all the time for simplicity.
Again, note that I do not claim this to be the answer to the question of balance - it just takes into account melee combat scenarios with "brutes", and ignores touch attacks, spells, terrain etc.
OFFENSIVE DPR
Target vitals: HP 55, AC 18. Calculation format is (HitChance)*(AvgDMG)+(CritChance)*(ConfirmChance)*(AvgCritDMG)=DPR. Then 1+(55 -(DPR standard attack))/DPR for number of rounds to down target on average.
Dwarf DPR: .6*17.5+.15*.6*17.5 = 12.075. Rounds to down target: 4.55.
That was the easy part. As can be seen, the dwarf has real issues getting the target to drop unless buffed - Haste would do a lot for it, doubling the DPR on full attacks.
Now the harder ones:
Monk DPR 1st round (THF shield bash 1d4+10+6): .6*18.5+.05*.6*18.5 = 11.65.
Monk DPR full attack: .45*15.5+*.05*.45*15.5 = 7.32375 +
.55*10.5+.05*.55*10.5 = 6.06375 +
.55*9.5+.05*.55*9.5 = 5.48625 +
(.55*8.5+.05*.55*8.5)*4 = 19.635
Total: 38.50875.
Rounds to down target: 1+(55-11.65)/38.50875 = 2.13. Now we're talking - this is an offensive powerhouse. It has a pretty decent chance to kill the enemy on the first full attack if it got that standard attack first, or two rounds if the enemy came up to it. The monk can increase this a lot once per day by the ranger's focus ability.
Synth DPR 1st round: .6*16+.05*.6*12.5 = 9.975
Synth DPR full attack: (.6*16+.05*.6*12.5)*4 = 39.9
Rounds to down target: 1+(55-9.975)/39.9 = 2.13.
Exactly the same as the monk, actually. That's pretty awesome, our optimizations are very well-synced ;) The point about offensive powerhouse stands. The synth could increase this a fair bit a few times per day if getting a round to cast Enlarge.
DEFENSIVE DPR
Vital statistics:
3*CR4 (similar to dire boars): +8 (16 avg damage)
CR 7 (similar to flesh golem): +13/+13 (15 avg damage)
Dwarf (hp 39, AC24)
VS 3*CR4: 3*(.25*16+.05*.25*16)=12.6
Rounds to down dwarf: 3.1
VS CR7: 2*(.5*15+.05*.5*15)=15.75
Rounds to down dwarf: 2.48
The dwarf can take quite a beating, but prolonged exposure to a pack of Dire Boars should be remedied with buffs and/or healing. A lucky crit or two can put it in severe danger in not that much time.
Monk (hp 61, AC17, DR2/-)
VS 3*CR4: 3*(.6*(16-2)+.05*.6*(16))=26.64
Rounds to down monk: 2.29
VC CR7: 2*(.85*(15-2)+.05*.85*(15)) = 23.375
Rounds to down monk: 2.6
Not weak per se, infinately more durable than a wizard, but the low AC really eats up the benefit of having high AC. Against even weaker enemies, or those with many attacks, it will have better durability comparable to that of the dwarf, and it is far better against damage spells (don't know how much low touch AC will affect that though - 12 vs 8 is quite noticable difference at this level). It is also less vulnerable to critical hits than the dwarf.
Synthesist (HP 66, AC29):
VS 3*CR4: 3*(.05*16+.05*.05*16)=2.62
Rounds to down synthesist: 26.19
VS CR7: 2*(.25*15+.05*.25*15)=7.875
Rounds to down synthesist: 8.38
The synthesist is pretty much impervious to the CR4's attacks. They just can't hit it. Against the CR7, it still lasts more than three times as long as the other characters, long enough that most fights really should have ended before it bites the dust due to damage, even if luck is against it.
[Spoiler=To sum it up]
All these characters are quite strong defensively and can tank decently and all have good saves. What I think stands out is that the synthesist is as good offensively as the other strongest character offensively, while still being way better defensively. So it's got the best of two worlds, kinda. The other characters have some defining features that they can do and the synth can - such as being quite good grapplers and bull-rushers - but so has the synthesist (flying!), and personally I don't feel this outweighs the fact that the eidolon has an insane AC while still being an offensive powerhouse.
If I was to play in an unknown game and was told it was hard and that I should optimize, and I were to choose between these three, I would choose the synthesist, every time (unless of course I had knowledge of the campaign beforehand).
There are ways to shut the synthesist down, no doubt - a bunch of low-level casters targeting it with spells such as Blindness/Deafness in large quantities come to mind - but the vast majority of opponents will have issues against it, and most of the anti-synth methods work against other characters too.
It feels as if other characters can quite easily match or even surpass the synth in offense _or_ defense, but that they have to pay quite heavily in the other area to do it - it seems to be hard to match the synth defensively and still have a good damage and vice versa. I'm not saying it's impossible but it seems to be hard, while it was very simple to make this synth.
So, that's a lot of math. Fun to do but bad for my head. I might have missed some stuff, feel free to point out any errors.
When you average HD for PCs you take the hd halve it then add one (d6 is 4hp, d8 is 5, etc) With summoned creatures, you simply halve the max hp without adding +1, so d6 would be 3, d8 4 etc...)That sounds like a house rule - the rule is that you roll; but when theorycrafting you usually take average on all rolls instead - so summon HD is 4.5, while eidolon HD is 5.5.
TextYou fighter looks fine, though I have some questions about the Barb/Monk/Ranger (I'll still call it monk as I did previously for simplicity's sake):
** spoiler omitted **Also I think 3-4 encounters per day as typical is a bit low - the CR system is based around 4 encounters per day as typical, so 3-5 encounters would be more fair I think. I don't think the non-raging AC is relevant as it's still low and the character will have very bad offense and defense at that point.
Okay I'll redo the comparison with the new builds:
** spoiler omitted **...
No time to check the calculations there, but to answer your question about the attack bonuses: What I stated is correct. You are confusing TWF with mixing weapon and natural attacks.
If you attack with a weapon (unarmed strike), your natural attacks all become secondary attacks (-5 to hit, only 1/2 str). Multiattack reduces the penalty to -2.Also regarding rage: Favored class bonus was put into rage. So that's (4+2 levels) +(2 con) +2 (favored class)... strange, I had more in there, you may be right about it.
I actually didn't intend this build for calculations, I would boost AC more in that case - which can rather easily be done. More to show how natural attacks favor the eidolon at level 5, and that this can be turned when one tries :-)