No, beast shape doesn't give you the ability to apply templates. It's applied as written.
Also moved this to the appropriate forum.
[deleted text to avoid confusion with the final, official answer below.]
No, beast shape doesn't give you the ability to apply templates. It's applied as written.Since I like examining corner cases, does this mean a child or adolescent that, for whatever reason, had the Beast Shape ability, would transform into an adult form of the beast when using this ability?
Anyone casting Beast Shape I can turn into any Small or Medium animal per the spell. The spell adjusts your stats, it doesn't actually give you the stats of the animal you choose. So a human child who can cast Beast Shape I, can turn into any Small or Medium animal just like a storm giant who can cast Beast I can turn into any Small or Medium animal.
[deleted text to avoid confusion with the final, official answer below.]
|
Beastshape isn't designed to turn you into an animal, since you don't always get all of the physical abilities of that animal, depending on what spell you use (and in some cases, such as turning into a rat with a swim speed and gaining free water breathing on the side, you get *more* than the animal has).
It's just a buff, with a special effect that it makes you look kind of like an animal. If you turn into a tiger, you won't be any better at hiding in tall grass than if you turned into a fire elemental. If you turn into an eagle, you won't have any better vision than if you turned into a naked mole rat (not that you could, since they're too small for the basic beast shape, IIRC...).
The whole Bestiary would have to be designed to balance the various animals and monsters against the levels of spells and abilities by which a PC could shapeshift into said creatures, summon said creatures, charm / dominate said creatures, gain the use of said creatures as cohorts / companions / improved familiars, and / or convince said creatures to use their abilities in the service of the PCs with Diplomacy, generous bribes or appeals to self-interest. To say nothing of monsters-as-PCs.
Instead, beast shape just gives you some buffs from a menu, and makes you look kind of like an animal in the process.
It's probably the easiest solution, since the game designers don't have to watch out for critters like the War Troll or whatever creeping into the game and blowing shapeshifter balance out of the water again.
Is it me, or does the avatar Mr. Frost is using makes all his answers and posts seem rather... cold? (No pun intended).
Seriously, even if they are just honest, straight answers to clarify rule points, reading them I feel like I am being lectured by an annoyed Ezren.
The spell functions as written. :-)
[deleted text to avoid confusion with the final, official answer below.]
The spell functions as written. :-)
So with BSII, you could be a Large hummingbird, yes.
With BSIII, you could be a Huge beaver.
Doesn't matter what you pick, because the spell only adjusts your stats as written. You may look like a Large hummingbird or a Huge beaver, but you're not actually either. As was said above, the spell is basically a buff.
Interesting. I've been running it exactly that way in my game, but I had always assumed it was a rather significant house-rule.
The spell functions as written. :-)
So with BSII, you could be a Large hummingbird, yes.
With BSIII, you could be a Huge beaver.
Doesn't matter what you pick, because the spell only adjusts your stats as written. You may look like a Large hummingbird or a Huge beaver, but you're not actually either. As was said above, the spell is basically a buff.
Actually, it does matter which form you take because you get the natural attacks, special attacks (potentially) and movement of the form taken.
So you'd have to figure out what a Large hummingbird's bite damage would be, in your example. Or, supposing you could turn into a Medium-sized giant octopus, you'd have to figure out how much damage your attacks would do, what your reach would be, etc.
I don't get this ruling.
Josh says you can turn into a Large Hummingbird. Does this creature even exist? How would this be legal for PFS if it doesn't exist in the bestiary? The spell says: , not take the natural attacks and abilities from one creature and pick a size. In other words, you pick a form (Size, Features) of a real, actual animal. Unless there really are Giant Dogs in the world, you shouldn't be able to use BS to turn into a Giant Dog. Otherwise, if you're free to essentially make up forms, why can't you choose the form of an aberration and say it's an animal coincidentally shaped exactly the same?
Likewise , why the problem with the Young template, which would appear to be a valid "Small creature of the animal type"? Not that you apply a Template on top of your BS stats, but that if you are picking a creature that qualifies by the parameters of BS (size), why can't you pick a Young Wolf (that is Small)? This has no bearing on the Size/Age of the Caster, they are losing their original form and turning into a new one. Josh's comment that it doesn't matter the Caster's age (or whether or not they personally have the Young template) implies that the Young Human Wildshaper is able to turn into non-Young Wolves, Elephants, etc. So why can't a non-Young Caster turn into a Young Wolf, Elephant, etc?
I'm not saying this as a way to whole-sale open access to all Templated creatures, but Young- is a completely normal natural animal, obviously all natural creatures are young at one point. I can't see any balance argument against this, in many ways it seems MORE balanced than Josh's apparent position than you can turn into any Sized version of an animal, regardless whether those really exist (which seems to go against the idea of turning into forms of natural animals: a Large Hummingbird really seems like Magical Beast material). Turning into a Young Creature doesn't involve any application of Templates to the PC because all stats are subject to the Spell itself, Young just determines that this creature is available in one Size less than normal. ...???
He's saying you can be a Tiny wolf, but you can't be a young wolf because young changes more then just the size it changes the abilities as well.
I always thought that this line from transmutation
Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature
kept you from taking lager versions of animals because the only way for them to be larger was through advancing hit die.
....but if you can be a huge sized deinonychus that's a whole new story for druids.
Giant Creature (+1)
Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.
Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.Young Creature (CR –1)
Creatures with the young template are immature specimens of the base creature. You can also use this simple template to easily create a smaller variant of a monster. This template cannot be applied to creatures that increase in power through aging or feeding (such as dragons or barghests) or creatures that are Fine-sized.Quick Rules: +2 to all Dex-based rolls, –2 to all other rolls, –2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: Size decrease by one category; AC reduce natural armor by –2 (minimum +0); Attacks decrease damage dice by 1 step; Ability Scores –4 Strength, –4 Con, +4 size bonus to Dex.
Young, and Giant, do not change any abilities though. Besides Size, all they change is Stats and Natural Armor, which are already over-ruled by the Polymorph spell itself. The only thing that changes is the Size and linked weapon-damage. But if he's saying you can turn into a Tiny/Large/Giant version anyways, there is absolutely no difference. Except whether or not you can turn into not-normally-occuring Sizes of natural Creatures.
....but if you can be a huge sized deinonychus that's a whole new story for druids.
Exactly, and the implications of what Josh is proposing seem seriously detrimental (and absurd) vs. the alternative. I seriously think he's reacting to this from the assumption that people would somehow be applying a Template on top of their BS form, which is not the case because the only change from the Young Template that would transfer over is the Size... So the issue is whether you are LIMITED by only -1 Size (possibly +1 Size if Giant Creatures are legit 'natural Creatures') or can scale up creatures arbitrarily beyond what is naturally possible. I really think that is a HUGE change in the ability's scope.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've spent some more time re-reading this thread and talking this over with Jason and others and here's the final word (I'm deleting everything I said above as it's confusing):
The spell allows you to assume a monster from the Bestiary of the appropriate type as written in the spell.
Polymorph can't be used to turn into templated creatures (pg 212 Core and mentioned above). So that solves the OP's initial concern.
I mispoke when I said Large hummingbird, Huge beaver, whatever etc. That's likely how I would hand wave it and handle it in a home game.
As for an official ruling and a ruling that actually applies to Pathfinder Society, the spell functions exactly as written. That means for BS1, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium animal found in the Bestiary of the matching appropriate size. Then, if that animal has any of the abilities listed in the spell, you gain those as well. The polymorph subschool then dictates what you gain re: attacks.
For BS2, you can assume the form of a Tiny or Large animal found in the Bestiary of the matching appropriate size. Then, if that animal has any of the abilities listed in the spell, you gain those as well. The polymorph subschool then dictates what you gain re: attacks.
And so on. Yes, the spell limits what forms you can choose as it's not a catch-all "turn into whatever I want" spell. It's essentially a series of buff spells that change your character's stats per the spell and you gain animal abilities per the spell and per the animal form chosen.
So to wind this all the way back to my initial answer:
The spell functions as written. ;-)
Great, that's solved then!
Now, who can guess what I originally thought this thread was about just from the title?
(And is THAT PFS-legit?) ;-)
Great, that's solved then!
Now, who can guess what I originally thought this thread was about just from the title?
(And is THAT PFS-legit?) ;-)
As for an official ruling and a ruling that actually applies to Pathfinder Society, the spell functions exactly as written.
[funny sarcasm] Nope, no at all ; ) [/funny sarcasm]
I myself do like Josh's "home rule" for it better though, keeps the druid viable at higher levels.
For BS2, you can assume the form of a Tiny or Large animal found in the Bestiary of the matching appropriate size. Then, if that animal has any of the abilities listed in the spell, you gain those as well. The polymorph subschool then dictates what you gain re: attacks.
Sorry if this is uneccesary, but to avoid any misunderstanding, I think it should be added that BS2 also allow you to take the form of small, medium or large animals with the abilities listed in BS2.
As for an official ruling and a ruling that actually applies to Pathfinder Society, the spell functions exactly as written. That means for BS1, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium animal found in the Bestiary of the matching appropriate size. Then, if that animal has any of the abilities listed in the spell, you gain those as well. The polymorph subschool then dictates what you gain re: attacks.
Ok, I have a follow-up question on the official ruling.
On page 84 of the Beastiary it has and EXAMPLE of of a 4th level advancement deinonychus which is large. Does that mean I can use BS2 to turn into a large deinonychus BUT I cannot use BS3 to turn into a huge one, since there is no huge example?
Or does it mean I can only turn into a medium deinonychus with BS1? I am actually asking because of wild shape for my druid, not for the arcane spell.
I read your answer to mean that I can use BS2, since there is an example in the book and is therefor found in the Beastiary. Can you clarify if I am right or why I am wrong? Thanks!