Pathfinder Battles Preview: Iconics Rise Again!

These all look awesome!! And I'm totally excited for a Badger! Hopefully the animal haters out there won't shed too many tears, as they won't be receiving multiples of Biter unless they purchase multiple copies of the same Iconics pack. But these all look great, and I can't wait to see how they turn out when all is said and done.

If I'm not mistaken, this is the first non-celeistial Dire Badger we've seen in pre-painted plastic miniature form.

I'm a little disappointed Merisiel isn't throwing the daggers like she was originally shown. But I'll certainly be getting this set.

Harsk really needs to take better care of his axe. When was the last time he honed the edge? It looks like it's made of flint!

Seriously though, they look cool. Can't wait to see masters.

All look great. Ezren looks the best to me in this digital rendition. I like the Merisiel version here better than the one throwing the daggers. I will like having a badger PPM, too.

I'm not a Pathfinder player, but these will work very well for PCs or NPCs in D&D.

Looking forward to more Lost Coast next week.

Another one for the collection. Like you Berk I'm a little bummed to see the knife throwing effect gone, but I'm happy with the final Merisiel. I am a hopeless fan of the transparent effects though. It looks likes set 3 will need to include some non core iconics unless they start in on the prestige classes.

I also like the small badger, adding that lone companion/familiar to each set is a real winner in my eyes, maybe We'll even get Balazars eidolon.

I'm all for more iconics, but I have some doubts about the digital sculpts. I know that Wizkids' minis for Wizards of the Coast were digital sculpts, and honestly I wasn't terribly impressed with the results. Something with them just seems -- off. I don't know, maybe they fall into the uncanny valley. And if you're familiar with the Heroclix line, they seem to be recycling poses from that line, too. So I'm watching with an open mind, but I hope this doesn't become a door to a decline in quality, whether of sculpts, painting, or both.

We don't need no stinking badgers!!

(Okay, maybe we do)

Any subscription info yet for the Iconics packs?

I am really happy with the selection on these sets. I am already shifting some budget so I can pick them up.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the miniatures that Wizkids produced for the recent D&D line were advertised as high quality painting jobs. Erik and other Paizo members have already said this Iconics line will be done with a high quality paint job.

Erik will know this better than I will, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The appeal of using digital sculpts is that it allows the people picking out the characters to use (Paizo, in this case) more input on what makes it into the final sculpt. The digital sculpts allow Erik and others to choose the specific details of what part of an illustration they desire for the sculpt. It makes it easier for them to include the little bits and pieces on a miniature, and choosing the color schemes that will fit best. A good example would be how more of the nicknacks show up on Ezren's cloat, and in better detail.

But the same folks that have painted them before will still be painting them in the future. But because the Iconics will be very detail-oriented as far as the amount of steps are concerned, the painters will spend more time on them. More steps to focus on the details, and get the colors right.

And it's not like Paizo is unaware of the issues in the past, especially with the medium human miniatures. It's for this very reason that Erik has made it clear that both he and Wizkids seem to have an understanding of the level of quality these pre-painted Iconics need to be.

I agree with you, Cleanthes, that watching with an open mind is good. Indeed, the final test--the only one that matters--is how the miniatures look at the end of the day. But I don't think comparing the recent D&D line to what the plan is for these Iconics is the apples-to-apples comparison I feel like you think it is.

Having said that, it sounds like The Lost Coast line will be also be made from digital sculpts. I do think a comparison between the recent D&D line and the Lost Coast line is applicable. And I'm on the same boat as you, in that I found the overall quality of the D&D line to be a bit of a letdown. All I can say is that I hope that was Wizkids getting the kinks out, as far as making fantasy miniatures from digital sculpts.

Either way, it all seems to go back to the actual painting performance. The more time spent on the miniature the better. But in order to keep each miniature from falling into the Rare category, there needs to be a balance struck between number of steps to paint and time allotted for each individual miniature.

Again, this is just what I've been able to glean after reading these threads and some on other boards. I could be completely wrong, so I welcome Erik or anyone else able to give a more clear or accurate description.

What I do know is obviously there is not one tried-and-true way to go about doing pre-painted plastic miniatures. If there was, everyone would be doing it the same, and it wouldn't have changed through the years. But when you look back at the old DDM lines, you see some of the same issues. Some of the lines are really well done, while others look pretty bad. Likewise, some of the Pathfinder Battles lines are done better than others. Indeed, Erik even references the 4-pack of Iconics Paizo put out a handful of years ago as a benchmark that they've been trying to get back to, quality-wise, and specifically regarding the humanoids.

So my question is what is it that makes that set so hard to duplicate in quality? Was it done by a completely different company? Was it because it was the first release of playable miniatures that Paizo/Wizkids put out for Pathfinder that extra time, and/or steps, went into their creation? If so, how come you don't return to that level of quality care for all the battles lines?

I wasn't here for the Heroes & Monsters release, but it sounds like many people had issues with the paint jobs of some of the miniatures in that line. I'm guessing some steps were changed, and the Rise of the Runelords came out. From everything I can tell, that is one of the most well-received sets with regards to paint quality. But I think a set or two later, the paint jobs were attacked again (Legends of Golarion, I think). And so due to the quality issues, I feel like I read that even more steps in the method were changed for the Wraith of the Righteous Battles line. I considered that well received from a paint-job/sculpt perspective. Overall I was fine with the Reign of Winter set; It seemed like aside from Feiya and one or two others, the big issue there was selection.

So again, do we know why the miniatures haven't been able to get back to a level found in that 4-hero pack released back in 2011 (or whenever)? Is it as simple as the first set received more steps--and Paizo/Wizkids took a loss in the process--to help kick off the launch of the Pathfinder Battles lines? That seems feasible to me, and I think it's a common enough practice when companies launch lines they hope will continue. But maybe there are other reasons?

Having said that, it sounds like The Lost Coast line will be also be made from digital sculpts. I do think a comparison between the recent D&D line and the Lost Coast line is applicable. And I'm on the same boat as you, in that I found the overall quality of the D&D line to be a bit of a letdown. All I can say is that I hope that was Wizkids getting the kinks out, as far as making fantasy miniatures from digital sculpts.

Nope. Lost Coast is all practical sculpts. The NEXT set (which we haven't announced yet) will be digital sculpts.

We are going to do everything we can to make sure this is a step forward in overall quality.

I can't speak to the D&D minis (I don't have mine yet), but I know for a fact they have fewer paint steps than Pathfinder figures and generally speaking go through a much less rigorous approval process.

As we've all seen, things outside of the licensor's control sometimes happen at the factory, but we are watching the next few sets--and especially these Iconic figures--with arcane eyes.

What I do know is obviously there is not one tried-and-true way to go about doing pre-painted plastic miniatures. If there was, everyone would be doing it the same, and it wouldn't have changed through the years. But when you look back at the old DDM lines, you see some of the same issues. Some of the lines are really well done, while others look pretty bad. Likewise, some of the Pathfinder Battles lines are done better than others. Indeed, Erik even references the 4-pack of Iconics Paizo put out a handful of years ago as a benchmark that they've been trying to get back to, quality-wise, and specifically regarding the humanoids.

So my question is what is it that makes that set so hard to duplicate in quality? Was it done by a completely different company? Was it because it was the first release of playable miniatures that Paizo/Wizkids put out for Pathfinder that extra time, and/or steps, went into their creation? If so, how come you don't return to that level of quality care for all the battles lines?

Darn. I was a little nervous that folks would read what I wrote in this way.

To be clear, I think we've exceeded that quality many times. With iconics alone, I think Harsk, Seoni, and Amiri easily equal or surpass the Beginner Box Heroes set.

The Beginner Box Heroes set had a very, very, very special Kyra figure with an AMAZING "tampo" of the robe details that surpassed everyone's expectations, and was probably one of the best tampos on a prepainted gaming figure up to that point. THAT's the quality I've been trying to chase ever since.

If you look at the Beginner Box Heroes set, they're great sculpts (all digital, btw), but they really lack the shading and inks that current figures get. The faces are a lot pastier as a result.

So we've moved past that set in quality in many ways (anyone miss the old foot pads? I don't). It's just… that tampo was AWESOME and I want to make something even better.

On the subject of Kyra, would it be possible for her right wrist to be a little stronger this time please? I know that it's a result of the pose and the arm being to the correct scale (**cough** Games Workshop **cough**), but I've seen so many that are broken just there...

In a lot of ways, I worry more about what goes on at Wizkids than I do about what goes on at Paizo. I'm confident that you in particular, Erik, are a gamer a lot like me in the relevant respects, and you want awesome pre-paints in hand as much as I do. And everything I've read here every week tells me that you have similar standards for quality and aesthetics. (I can say the same about Mr. Wertz, I think.) But I find Wizkids a great deal more opaque and less responsive, and I have less confidence in their willingness/ability to reliably turn out good product. The material they turned out for WotC just confirmed my worries about them. Part of me just wishes you had a different company making your minis, but I have no idea who that might be. (Though if Reaper were turning out pre-painted Bones, I know which company I'd recommend. Customer service and Heart-of-the-Gamer wise, to me the guys at Reaper are to minis what Paizo is to fantasy RPG's.)
Fwiw, I didn't read your statement about the original Kyra as a slam on the minis that have come since. I was holding the original Beginner Box minis in hand just this week and thinking that a couple of them are pretty middle-of-the-pack (no stinkers, though.) But Kyra just pops, in a way that few other pre-paints have. I've often wondered what made that mini so special and why it's been so hard to hit that standard since. I don't know, maybe Sarenrae took a hand ;-)

Looks like I'll be picking up at least one mini from this set. :)

I had a clarification question...will each of these sets contain a PFACG card for each of the iconics it contains? In other words will each box have six minis and also five cards in it? Because honestly, I love the minis (and yes, expensive as it is, I have a mini for every iconic* currently released), but I am at least as interested in new promo cards for my PFACG adventure paths as I am in the minis.

*And yes, this means I have both an original Kyra and a joker-face Feiya, which I contrast in person to at least one newcomer during my PFS games every week

Finally, A Badger, now my Dwarf Sorcerer can have his familiar, Lazybones.

Ezren, Merisiel, Kyra and Valeros (from the last preview) are what's really getting me excited for this sub-line. I like the "Beginner Box Heroes" set just fine, but I always thought it was kind of weird how all four minis were basically in the same pose. Not only do the new ones look amazing, but they're all posing in different ways that show more personality and better demonstrate the abilities/roles of their classes.

I already loved this line for making my goal of "owning a mini for every iconic" feasible, but this just made it even better. :)

Is it just me, or do Merisiel's eyes have whites (not correct for Elves in Pathfinder)?

I think that is light reflecting of her all-black eyes

Erik, can you confirm if the Merisiel figure will come with the action effect thrown daggers shown in the WizKids solicitation pictures? I hope that it does not or that the action effect can be easily cut from the mini.

Yeah, a badger! Jamilda will now have a Slag that looks like it is supposed to!

I had a clarification question...will each of these sets contain a PFACG card for each of the iconics it contains? In other words will each box have six minis and also five cards in it? Because honestly, I love the minis (and yes, expensive as it is, I have a mini for every iconic* currently released), but I am at least as interested in new promo cards for my PFACG adventure paths as I am in the minis.

Not only the iconics. Even the "other" sixth figure will get a card.

I cut the "action throw" because it looked too goofy and WK couldn't figure out how to make it removable.

I cut the "action throw" because it looked too goofy and WK couldn't figure out how to make it removable.

Thanks, Erik!

Is it just me, or do Merisiel's eyes have whites (not correct for Elves in Pathfinder)?

I believe those "white parts" are meant to be the reflection of a light source gleaming off her solid black eyes.

In any case, I remember reading somewhere that elven eyes are ALMOST entirely one color (typically black, sometimes blue or green). Near the edges, like the part you can't see anyway because they're hidden when the elf is looking straight ahead, there is some white there. In other words, if you got an elf to move her eyes to the side, you'd start to see the inklings of the white of her eyes.

I cut the "action throw" because it looked too goofy and WK couldn't figure out how to make it removable.

That's great! I know some people did like the effect, but I thought it took away from the overall appearance of the mini.

Its great to hear that you looked at the option of making it detachable. On the Plasticrypt forums we have been discussing this and I think there is an even split between people who like effects included in the minis, and those that don't. Removable effects satisfies both :)

@Erik: Will the Lini figure from the first iconics set be able to ride the accompanying Droogami?

No.

Too bad, mountable miniatures are one of the few things I miss about PFB so far. (Alternatives similar to Alan of unmounted, mounted and mount without rider as separate minis would of course be welcome instead)

The new dungeon crawler kickstarter will be starting September 29th and will be mostly mounted prepainted miniatures.

Also, Erik, sorry for recommending alternative minis lines again on your thread. PFB really are excellent but I love the little guys too.

There is another section of the boards for other miniatures.

jjvreed wrote:

I had a clarification question...will each of these sets contain a PFACG card for each of the iconics it contains? In other words will each box have six minis and also five cards in it? Because honestly, I love the minis (and yes, expensive as it is, I have a mini for every iconic* currently released), but I am at least as interested in new promo cards for my PFACG adventure paths as I am in the minis.

Not only the iconics. Even the "other" sixth figure will get a card.

Or, to put it another way, the sixth figure will *be* a card.

As part of that process, they've shifted the Pathfinder Battles line to digital sculpts, which allows us here at Paizo a much higher degree of control over the way the miniatures look and the colors used to paint them. This is especially important with our iconic characters, all of whom have key pieces of important equipment that must be reproduced in exacting detail. While digital sculpts can look really cool, it's also impossible to show all of the drybrushing and inking effects that the final figures will have, so it's best to imagine that the final figures will share all of the details and the general color scheme, but will look more "finished" and less "clean" than the images provided below.

I may be odd, but I'd rather the figures looked like the digital sculpts.

The problems seem to arise from trying to fit too many painting stages into the process, which are either too fiddly for mass production, or lead to the temptation to rush to meet deadlines.
I resprayed a 'fire snake' from WotC recently, that looked like the drybrushing had been applied with a wallpaper brush.

Back in the day when I had time to sit painting in games stores, I'd be asked for advice from younger players, and in the majority of cases, they'd seen some advanced technique from the 'Eavy Metal crew, that they wanted to pull off, but they hadn't learned the steadiness of hand to get the basics right. Doesn't matter how good your 'psychic lighting' effect is, or how good the eyes, if you leave primer (or even bare metal) poking through the upper coats, and slather your drybrushing with an overloaded brush. So I'd show them how to ensure their basecoats were done neatly and got into all the crevices, and they would have an army that was ready for the tabletop. They could then go back and do fiddly bits at their leisure, no pressure.

So I would prefer PPMs with less stages, done neatly, maybe with a wash to bring up detail, then if I think they deserve extra attention, I'll add my own highlights and flourishes.
Because it's easier for me to bring up the detail on a neatly basecoated mini, than to try rescuing a mini that's had 20 stages of paint, hastily misapplied.

Erik wrote:

As part of that process, they've shifted the Pathfinder Battles line to digital sculpts, which allows us here at Paizo a much higher degree of control over the way the miniatures look and the colors used to paint them. This is especially important with our iconic characters, all of whom have key pieces of important equipment that must be reproduced in exacting detail. While digital sculpts can look really cool, it's also impossible to show all of the drybrushing and inking effects that the final figures will have, so it's best to imagine that the final figures will share all of the details and the general color scheme, but will look more "finished" and less "clean" than the images provided below.

I may be odd, but I'd rather the figures looked like the digital sculpts.

They have neat, clean, simple lines, and are recognisable from the distance that you'd be using them at.

The problems seem to arise from trying to fit too many painting stages into the process, which are either too fiddly for mass production, or lead to the temptation to rush to meet deadlines.
I resprayed a 'fire snake' from WotC recently, that looked like the drybrushing had been applied with a wallpaper brush.

Back in the day when I had time to sit painting in games stores, I'd be asked for advice from younger players, and in the majority of cases, they'd seen some advanced technique from the 'Eavy Metal crew, that they wanted to pull off, but they hadn't learned the steadiness of hand to get the basics right. Doesn't matter how good your 'psychic lighting' effect is, or how good the eyes, if you leave primer (or even bare metal) poking through the upper coats, and slather your drybrushing with an overloaded brush. So I'd show them how to ensure their basecoats were done neatly and got into all the crevices, and they would have an army that was ready for the tabletop. They could then go back and do fiddly bits at their leisure, no pressure.

So I would prefer PPMs with less stages, done neatly, maybe...

As a none-artsy person, I don't want miniatures that I will need to touch up, regardless of how much work needs to be done. It's not a matter of being lazy, I just simply don't have the time for something like that. And truthfully, I don't have the desire, either. If I did, I'd be buying unpainted miniatures to make a go at it myself.

I admit that I'm not really sure what miniatures would look like if they were a 100% accurate representation as the ones in the digital images. I like the images because they appear to allow for better detail, both on the sculpt and thus in the paint job and tampo application. I don't know how the actual painting job would play out, or if it is even possible to pull off by hand while keeping costs under control.

I will say that I've been rather happy with the way most of the miniatures in the Battles line have turned out. Paizo/Wizkids do a pretty good job on the monsters and other creatures, and those are always the ones I look forward to most in the set. Despite my RP-heavy campaigns, I rarely bust out NPC's unless I anticipate or plan for some sort of PC/NPC altercation. When that does happen, sure, it's great to have the right miniature. More importantly, I find it really helps my players that struggle with spatial awareness, and/or are better visual learners. But if there is no potential battle going on, I've found it just slows down the game too much to make a habit out of it.

Because more NPC-types can mean more choices of miniatures for players to pick from to use as table PC's, I welcome the addition of such pieces. Likewise, I'm always on the hunt for great NPCs that can be used in certain situations where he or she becomes a recurring enemy. Therefore, I'm always a supporter of Erik, Paizo and Wizkids being able to get the Humanoid faces looking good on all their miniatures. In my humble opinion this is really the only area of the entire Battles line that has suffered any recurring issues from set to set.

As a supporter of the Pathfinder Battles miniatures line, I buy at least one case every release. I don't do it blindly, as instead I come here every week to get an idea of what the selections are and what they will look like. With Paizo lowering the cost of a subscription here on this website, it's become affordable to buy straight from them.

With the Paizo subscription, I will receive 129 miniatures for the price of about $305.00. This includes the cost of shipping and after the $10.00 discount on shipping is applied. This price includes the Gargantuan incentive included with each release. Breaking it down further, that comes out to be about $2.37 per miniature (after rounding up). Because I am lucky enough to be able to afford a case, and because I think Erik does a fantastic job at slotting rarities, I will continue to support the line as long as they make miniatures I'm not embarrassed to set down on the table. And because I don't consider $2.37 too much for a solid looking miniature, I don't feel my expectations get too far out of hand.

That doesn't mean that I'm advocating for lesser quality miniatures. One of the biggest reasons I continued purchasing miniatures was because Erik appears to genuinely care about the quality of the product, and thus I assumed I wouldn't be stuck with entire lines that are horrible. So if the digital sculpts can be done to look nearly identical to the images--and as long as they look pretty decent in the process--then I'm all for it. Otherwise, I'm pretty comfortable with the miniatures we've been getting, minus the handful of exceptions among the humanoids since the first set was released.

I haven't seen this listed yet.
Will the line be part of the subscription, or must we order them seperately?

I haven't seen this listed yet.

Will the line be part of the subscription, or must we order them seperately?

The question's been asked and ignored several times. I'm guessing their plans are in flux, and they'll make an announcement if and when they're ready to.

The Iconic Sets are not part of the subscription, but subscribers will be getting their discount on them.

The Iconic Sets are not part of the subscription, but subscribers will be getting their discount on them.

Thank you Liz.

The Iconic Sets are not part of the subscription, but subscribers will be getting their discount on them.

Is that discount for the Pathfinder Battles subscribers only or is it available to PACG subscribers as well? Tried to pre-order this and still showing list price of $29.99 in my cart. Very interested in picking these up.

Any updates whether PACG subscribers will get a discount as well? Waiting to pull the trigger on this.

Yeah, it would be nice if PACG subscribers also got their discount, since these items include PACG cards.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game subscribers will get their 20% discount on the Iconics sets. If you subscribe to both lines, you will get the greater of the two discounts—it does not stack.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game subscribers will get their 20% discount on the Iconics sets. If you subscribe to both lines, you will get the greater of the two discounts—it does not stack.

Awesome, thanks!

I have enough humanoid figures. Give me a 6-pack of Biters!