| Story Archer |
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I’m a huge fan of the Summoner, particularly the Master Summoner and almost always have one in play. In my opinion its one of the most versatile and powerful classes/archetypes in the game, and while playing one I’ve managed to pull off things that entire parties of characters would have difficulty with – and I’m not just talking about straight combat either. At any rate, if any class is open to being labeled ‘over-powered’, I believe the Summoner to be it and I’ve been thinking about ways to tweak it, to tone down its versatility and potency a tiny bit without negatively impacting the joy of playing one. What I’ve come up with is three-tier approach and I encourage anyone to feel free to utterly disregard in part or in entirety anything that follows.
Tier 1: Re-imagining the Summoner class itself
To start I simply can’t reconcile medium BAB progression, light armor proficiency and a d8 HD for a character that’s essentially a puppet master - if any pure casting class can make an argument for those benefits it’s more likely the Sorcerer. Dropping the Summoner's BAB progression to slow, nixing the light armor proficiency and dropping their HD to d6 goes a long way towards making them appropriately ‘fragile’.
Secondly, I don’t think Gate is an appropriate spell-like ability to be usable a dozen or more times a day. Add it instead to the Summoner’s standard spell list and in its place (either at 19th level or as a capstone ability at 20th), grant them the class feature ‘Perfect Summons’. Perfect Summons causes all summoned creatures to arrive with maximum hit points and to gain a +4 to saving throws against dismissal, banishment or compulsion effects.
Tier 2: Re-creating Monster Summoning
To better reflect the way play often progresses, we've decided that as part and parcel of the various Summoning spells, the caster has the ability to communicate with his summoned creatures and to direct them as he wishes... but it costs him a move action to do so. Whether that’s a move action every round automatically for the duration of the spell or only one spent when changing their instructions (stop attacking the kobolds and attack the dragon that just flew in) is up to interpretation at the moment. Next when casting the spell, you may select a creature from your highest available tier or up to 2 creatures from the second highest, up to 3 creatures from the 3rd highest and so on. In other words, the entire list is always available to you provided you are high enough level to access it – this can be incredibly useful considering the wide array of abilities your summoning list might offer, and helps make up for the fewer initial options of the more specialized summoning lists below. The Superior Summoning feat and similar bonuses still apply as normal.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that teleporting and dimension door type abilities should be able to function as normally, though the prohibition against summoned creatures being able to summon creatures in turn be upheld, nor should they be able to Planeshift or engage in any other form of extra-dimensional travel.
Tier 3: Theme-based Summoning lists
One of the biggest advantages that a Summoner, Master Summoner or Conjurer has is the ability to customize his weapons, the ability to summon exactly the right type of creature to meet whatever threat they encounter. This advantage was recently made obvious in our Skull and Shackles campaign where being able to summon aquatic creatures or water elementals provided a huge advantage in encounters where we were intended to be out of our element. Moreover, that versatility creates something of an identity crisis for the Summoner, essentially giving him so many options that he never really develops a concept for his character beyond ‘the guy who summons random things’ or mor eoften simply falls into a rut summoning the same creatures over and over again because they represent the most optimized choice from those available to him. The solution to that? Custom Summoning lists, each centered around specific themes.
What we’ve done is put together a number of new lists with the idea that a Summoner would select aparticular theme at the time his character is created, build around it and in so doing develop a much more specific identity. This idea was then extended to spell lists for Wizards and Sorcerers, basically saying that each level of each custom list was a separate spell (i.e. Summon Undead III wouldn’t allow you to summon a creature from the III tier of the Fey list). In each case there is usually a choice between two creatures at each level, though not in all cases as the lists were managed to balance with one another as much as possible over the life of the character. Some lists offer more options early on but fewer as you level up, some lists may lack a new option entirely from one tier to another, but gain earlier access to a more powerful creature or a more versatile list overall. The lists were designed to be relatively balanced based on the CR spread of the original Summon options but in no way homogenous – we wanted each custom summon list to have a unique ‘feel’ to it.
Obviously not everyone will like every list or every option presented on it. That’s fine. If you consider this option in your game don’t feel compelled to include anything you don’t like. The entire point of this is to provide a place to start and to offer more options, not to create an opportunity to upset anyone’s game from a numbers or role-play standpoint.
Below are the 22 or so Summon lists we’ve put together. The options are far more limited and theme-based, but we’ve found this actually improves the character’s pliability rather than inhibiting it. We’re currently working on a few more to add in the future and any suggestions, questions or critiques are very welcome in the meantime. In every case we made the maximum possible effort to include only Paizo creations and avoid 3rd party options though there are a few of them here and there, usually indicated by an ‘*’.
Aberration
For those who wish to play servants of the Aboleths, mystic dabblers who’ve delved too deeply the secrets of the far realms or simply insane arcanists conjuring forth visions from their own twisted dreams.
Grindylow
Sagari
II
Flumph
Akata
III
Choker
Incutilis
IV
Otyugh
Rust Monster
V
Naga, Lunar
Gibbering Mouther
VI
Naga, Dark
Destrachan
VII
Naga, Guardian
Gug
VIII
Naga, Royal
Roper
IX
Froghemoth
Vemerak
Animal
Whether summoning creatures who live upon it, fly high above or burrow deep beneath, conjurers of this sort favor the creatures of the natural world to fight on their behalf.
Badger
Dog
Eagle
II
Horse
Wolf
Frog, Giant
III
Bat Swarm
Dire Bat
Crocodile
IV
Dire Wolf
Eagle, Giant
V
Bear, Grizzly
Snake, Emperor Cobra
VI
Dire Bear
Dire Crocodile
VII
Roc
Snake, Giant Anaconda
VIII
Purple Worm
IX
Great Worm (Advanced, Giant Purple Worm)
Aquatic
Practitioners who live near the sea, ply their trade upon it or under it are best served by summoning creatures from the rocky shores, the shallow seas and the hidden depths.
Dolphin
Stingray
II
Octopus
Snake, Sea
III
Crab, Giant
Shark
IV
Narwhal
Sea Snake Swarm (venomous)
V
Moray Eel, Giant
Jellyfish Swarm
VI
Jellyfish, Giant
Snake, Sea, Giant
VII
Dire Shark
Squid, Giant
VIII
Sapphire Jellyfish
Sea Serpent
IX
Whale, Great White
Crab, Shipwrecker
Constructs
For the mechanically minded summoner who fancies being served by clockwork minions, defended by massive golems and for whom even mundane objects come to life.
Clockwork Spy
Animated Object (tiny)
II
Homunculus
Animated Object (small)
III
Clockwork Servant
Iron Cobra
IV
Adamantine Cobra
Animated Object (medium)
V
Clockwork Soldier
Wood Golem
VI
Aballonian
Glass Golem
VII
Aluum
Clay Golem
VIII
Clockwork Leviathon
Stone Golem
IX
Iron Golem
Brass Golem
Dragons
Your affinity from dragons and their kin allow you to summon them to your side, from the smallest to those most mighty.
Kobold
II
Psuedodragon
III
Faerie Dragon
Tatzlwyrm
IV
Fire Drake
Forest Drake
Ice Drake
River Drake
V
Wyvren
VI
Chromatic Dragon (CR 7-8) or
Metallic Dragon (CR 7-8)
VII
Dragonkin
VIII
Chromatic Dragon (CR 11-12) or
Metallic Dragon (CR 11-12)
IX
Chromatic Dragon (CR 13-14) or
Metallic Dragon (CR13-14)
Elemental – Air
The denizens of the plane of elemental air are yours to command.
Slyph
Zhyen, Air
II
Air Elemental (small)
III
Air Mephit
IV
Air Elemental (medium)
V
Air Elemental (large)
Arrowhawk
VI
Air Elemental (huge)
Genie, Djinni
VII
Air Elemental (greater)
Invisible Stalker
VIII
Air Elemental (elder)
IX
Elemental Dragon, Air* (add at 19th level)
Elemental – Earth
The denizens of the plane of elemental earth are yours to command.
Oread
Zhyen, Earth
II
Earth Elemental (small)
III
Earth Mephit
IV
Earth Elemental (medium)
Crysmal
V
Earth Elemental (large)
Xorn
VI
Earth Elemental (huge)
Genie, Shaitan
VII
Earth Elemental (greater)
VIII
Earth Elemental (elder)
IX
Elemental Dragon, Earth* (add at 19th level)
Elemental – Fire
The denizens of the plane of elemental fire are yours to command.
Ifrit
Zhyen, Fire
II
Fire Elemental (small)
III
Fire Mephit
IV
Fire Elemental (medium)
Hell Hound
V
Fire Elemental (large)
Salamander
VI
Fire Elemental (huge)
Genie, Efreeti
VII
Fire Elemental (greater)
VIII
Fire Elemental (elder)
IX
Elemental Dragon, Fire* (add at 19th level)
Elemental – Water
The denizens of the plane of elemental water are yours to command.
Undine
Zhyen, Water
II
Water Elemental (small)
III
Water Mephit
Triton
IV
Water Elemental (medium)
V
Water Elemental (large)
VI
Water Elemental (huge)
Genie, Marid
VII
Water Elemental (greater)
Nereid
VIII
Water Elemental (elder)
IX
Elemental Dragon, Water* (add at 19th level)
Fey
Through a mystical connection to the world of the fey, you can draw forth spirits and sprites, fantastic animals and skulking nightmares.
Owl, Fey
Sprite
II
Badger, Fey
Gremlin, Jinkin
III
Wolf, Fey
Gremlin, Nuglub
IV
Dire Wolf, Fey
Quickling
V
Grizzly Bear, Fey
Redcap
VI
Dire Bear, Fey
Nymph
VII
Roc, Fey
Nereid
VIII
Whale, Fey
Larabay
IX
Ankou
Grimm*
Humanoid
Some look among the savage humanoids of our own realm to do their brutal bidding.
Goblin
Orc
II
Gnoll
Half-Ogre
III
Bugbear
Werewolf
IV
Ogre
Werebear
V
Troll
Ettin
VI
Hill Giant
Stone Giant
VII
Frost Giant
Fire Giant
VIII
Cloud Giant
IX
Storm Giant
Ooze
Oozes, fungi, molds, jellies and puddings, parasitic offal and carrion-eaters who have evolved a wide array of bizarre and dangerous abilities.
Ooze Swarm, Sanguine
Ooze Swarm, Phlegmatic
II
Amoeba, Giant
Shrieker*
III
Gelatinous Orb
Slime Mold
IV
Gelatinous Cube
Ooze, Gray
V
Jelly, Ochre
Ooze, Verdurous
VI
Jelly, Mustard
Pudding, Black
VII
Pudding, Behemoth
VIII
Ooze, Verdurous (greater)
IX
Carnivorous Blob
Outsider – Lawful Good
From the upper planes, the might of the Archons and their lesser heralds are yours to command.
Aasimar
Horned Owl, Celestial
II
Horse, Celestial
Mongrelman, Celestial
III
Archon, Lantern
Blink Dog, Celestial
IV
Archon, Hound
Griffon, Celestial
V
Giant Owl, Celestial
VI
Archon, Legion
VII
Archon, Shield
Couatl
VIII
Sleipnir, Celestial
IX
Archon, Trumpet
Kirin*
Outsider – Neutral Good
Angels and celestial beings come when you call.
Aasimar
Eagle, Celestial
II
Riding Dog, Celestial
Horse, Celestial
III
Angel, Cassisian
Agathion, Silvanshee
IV
Giant Eagle, Celestial
V
Agathion, Vulpinal
VI
Criosphinx, Celestial
VII
Angel, Movanic Deva
Agathion, Avoral
VIII
Angel, Monadic Deva
Agathion, Leonal
IX
Angel, Astral Deva
Peri
Outsider – Chaotic Good
You draw forth the capricious and sublime fury of good spirits from the wild places.
Aasimar
Otter, Celestial
II
Ram, Celestial
Horse, Celestial
III
Azata, Lyrakien
Farie Dragon, Celestial
IV
Pegasus, Celestial
V
Azata, Bralani
Unicorn, Celestial
VI
Azata, Lillend
VII
Androsphinx, Celestial
Garuda
VIII
Thunderbird, Celestial
IX
Azata, Ghaele
Azurverda
Outsider – Lawful Evil
One must wonder what deals must be struck to send such devils against your foes.
Tiefling
Snake, Viper, Fiendish
II
Devil, Lemure
Wolf, Fiendish
III
Devil, Imp
Snake, Constrictor, Fiendish
IV
Devil, Gaav
Devil, Zebub
V
Devil, Barbazu
Devil, Magaav
VI
Devil, Levaloch
Devil, Erinyes
VII
Devil, Osyluth
Devil, Phistophilus
VIII
Devil, Hamatula
Devil, Ayngavhaul
IX
Devil, Gelugon
Devil, Gylou
Outsider – Neutral Evil
Bizarre and powerful daemons torment the living and the dead alike at your command.
Tiefling
Centipede, Giant, Fiendish
II
Dire Corby, Fiendish
Cave Scorpion, Fiendish
III
Cacodaemon
Div, Doru
IV
Lacridaemon
Div, Aghash
V
Venedaemon
Ceustodaemon
VI
Hydrodaemon
Div, Pairaka
VII
Leukodaemon
Div, Ghawwas
VIII
Meladaemon
Derghodaemon
IX
Thanadaemon
Div, Sepid
Outsider – Chaotic Evil
You do not gaze long into the Abyss, you merely summon creatures from its darkest depths to do your bidding.
Tiefling
Maggot, Giant, Fiendish
II
Abyssal Larva*
Hyena, Fiendish
III
Demon, Dretch
Demon, Quasit
IV
Demon, Hala
Demon, Schir
V
Demon, Babau
Demon, Brimorak
VI
Demon, Succubus
Demon, Shadow
VII
Demon, Kalavakus
Demon, Vrock
VIII
Demon, Omox
Demon, Hezrou
IX
Demon, Glabrezu
Demon, Nalfeshee
Outsider – Elementals
A broader mastery of elemental powers allows you to draw allies from air, water, earth or fire.
Ifrit
Oread
Sylph
Undine
II
Elemental (small - any)
Zhyen (any)
III
None.
IV
Elemental (medium – any)
Mephit (any)
V
Elemental (large – any)
VI
Elemental (huge – any)
VII
Elemental (greater – any)
VIII
Elemental (elder – any)
IX
None.
Plant
All manner of plant-like creatures from the exotic to the deadly sprout, grow and bloom at your word.
Vegepygmy
Leshy, Leaf
II
Shrieker*
Leshy, Gourd
III
Yellow Musk Creeper
Leshy, Fungus
IV
Mandragora
Violet Fungus
V
Shambling Mound
Ascomoid
VI
Treat
Hangman Tree
VII
Fetid Spore Mound
Flytrap, Giant
VIII
Treant, Advanced Lightning
Tobongo
IX
Viper Vine
Mandragora Swarm
Undead
The spirits of the dead, and the decayed bodies of the living rise to do your bidding.
Skeleton
Zombie
II
Skeleton, Mount
Ghoul
III
Skeleton, Ogre
Ghoul, Ghast
IV
Wight
Shadow
V
Wraith
Skeleton Mage
VI
Spectre
Shadow, Greater
VII
Vampire
Undead Raven Swarm*
VIII
Graveknight
Lich
IX
Banshee
Demi-Lich
Vermin
Vermin infest every part of the world and as individuals or in massive swarms they are yours to command.
Centipede, Giant
Dire Rat
II
Fly, Giant
Spider, Giant
III
Rat Swarm
Spider Swarm
IV
Wasp, Giant
Mosquito Swarm
V
Mosquito, Giant
Ant Swarm, Army Ants
VI
Beetle, Goliath Stag
Slug, Giant
VII
Centipede, Titan
Tick Swarm
VIII
Scorpion, Giant
Chain Worm*
IX
Scorpion, Black
| Cheapy |
I love posts where I have to open a new window to respond :D
Tier 1:
I believe their martial proficiency (overall, not weapon type) is there to give them things to do other than just summon all the time. Summoning all the time takes up a lot of time for the average table, so not encouraging flooding the battle map is a good thing. It's also there to help differentiate between other summoners, I'd imagine. Some fight with their eidolon, and people wouldn't be too happy if they couldn't do that.
Tier 2:
Is the move action for all summons? Per group of summons? Per summoned creature? I think either way, it's a huge boost. (That is, it's a huge buff no matter what, even if it's per summoned creature.) It means that most creatures can be commanded without the full-round action that is now necessary (and intentional too) ever since the change from 3.5. I assume that even creatures you can communicate with would need this move action, so that's a slight nerf, but overall, you come out a head due to all the creatures you can now communicate with.
Being able to pick and choose which creatures from a lower spell level is a huge boost, in addition for no cap like there is now. I suppose my friend could finally use Summon Monster 9 to summon a small horde of bees... Swarm of Bees? I'm going to stick with horde. (Why aren't there any insect based archetypes? Hmmmm). Note that I haven't read the specialized lists so far.
I'd recommend against the teleportation. It makes them far too versatile.
Theme-based summoning lists: a noble pursuit.
Read this post by the God of d20 Design for his thoughts on summoning undead, and why he made his line of summon undead spells no-spellcasting or SLAing. I think this will apply to some of your lists.
| Story Archer |
I love posts where I have to open a new window to respond :D
Tier 1:
I believe their martial proficiency (overall, not weapon type) is there to give them things to do other than just summon all the time. Summoning all the time takes up a lot of time for the average table, so not encouraging flooding the battle map is a good thing. It's also there to help differentiate between other summoners, I'd imagine. Some fight with their eidolon, and people wouldn't be too happy if they couldn't do that.Tier 2:
Is the move action for all summons? Per group of summons? Per summoned creature? I think either way, it's a huge boost. (That is, it's a huge buff no matter what, even if it's per summoned creature.) It means that most creatures can be commanded without the full-round action that is now necessary (and intentional too) ever since the change from 3.5. I assume that even creatures you can communicate with would need this move action, so that's a slight nerf, but overall, you come out a head due to all the creatures you can now communicate with.Being able to pick and choose which creatures from a lower spell level is a huge boost, in addition for no cap like there is now. I suppose my friend could finally use Summon Monster 9 to summon a small horde of bees... Swarm of Bees? I'm going to stick with horde. (Why aren't there any insect based archetypes? Hmmmm). Note that I haven't read the specialized lists so far.
I'd recommend against the teleportation. It makes them far too versatile.
Theme-based summoning lists: a noble pursuit.
Read this post by the God of d20 Design for his thoughts on summoning undead, and why he made his line of summon undead spells no-spellcasting or SLAing. I think this will apply to some of your lists.
I understand that reasoning and that take on Summoners and their martial ability - figure in the first 6 rounds of combat or so (and it rarely seems to last much longer than that), my Master Summoner summons and uses spells or a wand with little to no need for a martial effort. Call it a bias created by my own play, but for a class as powerful as the Summoner to gain light armor and weapon ability too seems like overkill.
There may be a degree of misunderstanding on my part when it comes to commanding summoned creatures. I've never seen a specific rule governing their control - in play, when my turn comes up, the GM basically asks me what my creatures do and then asks me what I do. Its generally assumed that they attack the nearest foe unless I specify otherwise, but mechanically they just end up being more 'me's that I control since you can talk (and therefor theoretically utter commands) as a free action. It was my intention by introducing a move action as a sort of penalty for controlling summoned creatures I was actually de-buffing the character rather than reducing a greater requirement already in place.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'in addition for no cap like there is now'. Yes, going off my lists at 17th level a Summoner could theoretically 1 Storm Giant, 4 Hill Giants, 6 Ogres or 9 Orcs, but I don't see anything particularly over-powering about any of those options. It may be that a Summoner needs to call forth a lesser creature to make use of a particular ability or immunity they have and I don't really like the idea that he may have 'forgotten' how to do that in the pursuit of more powerful minions.
Thank you for the responses. As experienced as I am with the character, clearly there are some perspectives I'm lacking.
| Cheapy |
Believe me, I'm a fan of any attempts to modify the summoner :) I've had a few modifications to it, in the form of one archetype up on d20pfsrd as well as the one linked to in my profile. The former is more probably powerful than the master summoner, but oozes theme so I went with it, the latter is less powerful, but more interesting.
Responses!
Well, the martial aspect can be showcased by the ever popular mounted summoner who uses a lance. Other ideas are those that flank with their eidolons and take up teamwork feats.
Ah, I suppose I was a bit vague there. What I was referring to was Handle Animal. In 3.5, if you summoned a celestial / fiendish animal, they became magical beasts and could understand languages (in this case: celestial or fiendish. Either by the rule, or just assumed). This meant that by taking just those two languages, or even one, you could just talk to the animal to command it to do things. In PF, they no longer become magical beasts, and remain Animal type. This means that they no longer understand any human languages (unless they would otherwise, of which I can't think of many animals that do. Or any for that matter!). So RAW / RAI, you can't just speak to command the animals to do things.
For example, if you have tony the celestial dire tiger attacking a kobold, and the dragon comes up, you can't just yell out "TONY! Make a GREEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAT Attack against the dragon!". Well, you can. But he won't listen. You'd have to use a full-round action to Push the animal to do so. I think it's assumed they don't have any tricks known, as the rules don't say they do.
So, if you have 4 tigers (tony, bony, crony, and zony), you would have to do 4 FRA to get them to change.
If played by the rules, I think the summoner's power is held to a possibly reasonable level.
Note that creatures that understand language, elementals, most outsiders, etc, can be commanded as a free action by talking.
So! In effect, tier 2's first change is negating that Handle Animal check, and lowering the action to just a move action. It's instituting a move action for those who would be able to understand anyways, which is actually an interesting idea. The first link I posted goes into this a bit "don't understand languages" a bit.
The "in addition for no cap like there is now" thing is referring to the cap on summons right now. So, using SM III lets you drop down 1d4+1 SM I creatures. And SM IX lets you drop down 1d4+1 SM VII, but no more. That's the cap I was referring to.
The thematic summonings does temper that a bit though. If it could be used for the base SM, then I think things could get a bit wonky. Summoning a highly tailored army with just one action is too good. It's an issue of versatility for an already highly versatile class, as you pointed out.
| Story Archer |
Well, the martial aspect can be showcased by the ever popular mounted summoner who uses a lance. Other ideas are those that flank with their eidolons and take up teamwork feats.
Ah, I suppose I was a bit vague there. What I was referring to was Handle Animal. In 3.5, if you summoned a celestial / fiendish animal, they became magical beasts and could understand languages (in this case: celestial or fiendish. Either by the rule, or just assumed). This meant that by taking just those two languages, or even one, you could just talk to the animal to command it to do things. In PF, they no longer become magical beasts, and remain Animal type. This means that they no longer understand any human languages (unless they would otherwise, of which I can't think of many animals that do. Or any for that matter!). So RAW / RAI, you can't just speak to command the animals to do things.
For example, if you have tony the celestial dire tiger attacking a kobold, and the dragon comes up, you can't just yell out "TONY! Make a GREEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAT Attack against the dragon!". Well, you can. But he won't listen. You'd have to use a full-round action to Push the animal to do so. I think it's assumed they don't have any tricks known, as the rules don't say they do.
So, if you have 4 tigers (tony, bony, crony, and zony), you would have to do 4 FRA to get them to change.
If played by the rules, I think the summoner's power is held to a possibly reasonable level.
Note that creatures that understand language, elementals, most outsiders, etc, can be commanded as a free action by talking.
So! In effect, tier 2's first change is negating that Handle Animal check, and lowering the action to just a move action. It's instituting a move action for those who would be able to understand anyways, which is actually an interesting idea. The first link I posted goes into this a bit "don't understand languages" a bit.
The "in addition for no cap like there is now" thing is referring to the cap on summons right now. So, using SM III lets you drop down 1d4+1 SM I creatures. And SM IX lets you drop down 1d4+1 SM VII, but no more. That's the cap I was referring to.
The thematic summonings does temper that a bit though. If it could be used for the base SM, then I think things could get a bit wonky. Summoning a highly tailored army with just one action is too good. It's an issue of versatility for an already highly versatile class, as you pointed out.
Alright, I get what you're saying. For the my part I can't imagine instituting a full round action to direct the actions of 1 summoned creature and a free action to direct the actions of all the others. That seems wonky to me, so simply assuming that the creatures that you particularly specialize in summoning can do your bidding for no more than the cost of a move action across the board seems a much more equitable way to go.
Referencing the 'no cap like now' thing, I think with the sleeker lists its perfectly balanced. Summon Monster IV from the humanoid list lets you get 4 Goblins or 3 Gnolls or 2 Bugbears or 1 Ogre. And let's face it, at 7th level 4 goblins are basically just PMD's.