I did a quick search on this and didn't see anything, but I didn't do an exhaustive search. Forgive me if it's been covered.
My druid uses a metamagic rod of "extend" on her summoning spells sometimes to extend the time that the summoned animal exists.
What if she used our sorcerer's metamagic rod of "empower?"
Would the summoned animals have 1.5x their normal hit points?
Would a maximized summon have maximum hit points?
Would an intensified summon have +X hit dice?
Empower: 50% more creatures summoned if from a lower level list.
Maximized: See Empower, replace "50% more" with "Maximun number of"
Intensified: Only effects spells with caps based on level, like burning hands.
I did a quick search on this and didn't see anything, but I didn't do an exhaustive search. Forgive me if it's been covered.
My druid uses a metamagic rod of "extend" on her summoning spells sometimes to extend the time that the summoned animal exists.
What if she used our sorcerer's metamagic rod of "empower?"
Would the summoned animals have 1.5x their normal hit points?
Would a maximized summon have maximum hit points?
Would an intensified summon have +X hit dice?
No to all of these.
Nor would a 'maximized' summon automatically roll 20s on all of their attacks.
A small note- if you're spontaneously converting to summons then using a metamagic rod increases the casting time... (not that I agree with this prejudice against spontaneous casters mind you)
-James
Good reminder on the spontaneous converting of summons.
As for the "no" on these, what should I refer to in the rulebook to support this? Has this been in an errata? What, specifically, about the hit dice exempts them from the "random effects" clause in these metamagic effects?
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Just a quick look, I would say that you are correct for both Empower and Maximized because the HPs are technically a random varible of the spell, but not Intensified. Intensified states that it increased the damage dice. HD aren't damage dice. And before you ask, no, I don't think it would increase the damage the summoned creature would do with it's attack.
For most of those I completly agree that "no" is the answer, but why doesnt Extend spell work for summonings?
Empower: 50% more creatures summoned if from a lower level list.
Maximized: See Empower, replace "50% more" with "Maximun number of"
Intensified: Only effects spells with caps based on level, like burning hands.
OK, that makes sense. At least empowering a summons can now provide some benefit.Probably not worth it though.
Just a quick look, I would say that you are correct for both Empower and Maximized because the HPs are technically a random varible of the spell.
The number of Hit Points is determined by the creature, not the spell that summons it.
Just a quick look, I would say that you are correct for both Empower and Maximized because the HPs are technically a random varible of the spell.The number of Hit Points is determined by the creature, not the spell that summons it.
OK, that makes sense. Thanks.
Creatures are assumed to have the average hp just like in the book.
The summoned creature really exist. When you kill it, it just does not really die like a called creature does. It just gets sent back to its home plane.
Empower and maximize only affect die rolls that such as the damage from magic missile. At no point does the spell(summon monster) tell you to roll for hp.
Creatures are assumed to have the average hp just like in the book.
The summoned creature really exist. When you kill it, it just does not really die like a called creature does. It just gets sent back to its home plane.
Empower and maximize only affect die rolls that such as the damage from magic missile. At no point does the spell(summon monster) tell you to roll for hp.
Yeah, I agree now. I do appreciate Azten's point about summing lower level creatures, which does use a die.
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Well let me ask this: When you use a Summon spell, do you just use the base Hit Points, or do you roll the Hit Dice?
I mandate the average Bestiary values modified by Augment Summoning if the feat is being used.
Because going through a char generation process for each summoned creature would have to be the stupidest waste of game time that I've seen suggested to date.
Because going through a char generation process for each summoned creature would have to be the stupidest waste of game time that I've seen suggested to date.
And who, precisely, suggested doing that?
I believe he's reffering to TClifford question of whether or not you roll the Hit Points.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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For most of those I completly agree that "no" is the answer, but why doesnt Extend spell work for summonings?
I think james maissen was replying "no" to Empower, Maximize, and Intensify. Extend certainly should double the duration of summons, although the utlity of doing so is questionable after you get to 6-7 rounds or so. You start entering the realm of "longer than one fight, but not enough time to get to a second one."
Might be better used outside of combat, like when a Large flyer could ferry the party over an obstacle. The 2 round casting time for metamagic on a spontaneous spell would be less of a problem there as well.
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There is a major difference between char generation and just rolling the hps of the summoned creature.
Still, if you are using just the average, what is wrong with saying Empowered gives the average x 1.5 and Maximized gives max HPs?
I mean really why would anyone do this in the first place? Which would you rather do? Summon a Monster I but Maximized or Monster IV with normal hit points? The higher level creature is going to be better than the lower level creature in all other aspects.
Celestial Eagle at full hit points or a Hound Archon as base points. Your choice.
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Still, if you are using just the average, what is wrong with saying Empowered gives the average x 1.5 and Maximized gives max HPs?
The spell is not making them, but rather just bringing them.
As to power issues.. metamagic rods, etc.
-James
Wait we are already conceding that we are just summoning in an average representation of the creatures, but as we all know if there is an average there is a better than average. Empower just brings in a creature that is 50% bigger than the average and Maximize just finds the absolute pinicle of that creature.
I believe he's reffering to TClifford question of whether or not you roll the Hit Points.
Oh, so he's suggesting that rolling a few d8s and adding them up is some sort of onerous burden that destroys game play....
Hmmmm I wonder how he feels about rolling a few d6s to determine spell damage....
Wait we are already conceding that we are just summoning in an average representation of the creatures, but as we all know if there is an average there is a better than average. Empower just brings in a creature that is 50% bigger than the average and Maximize just finds the absolute pinicle of that creature.
Still, if you are using just the average, what is wrong with saying Empowered gives the average x 1.5 and Maximized gives max HPs?
The spell is not making them, but rather just bringing them.
As to power issues.. metamagic rods, etc.
-James
If you summon Bob the Babua the spell does not make Bob stronger. The hit point are never called out in the spell so you get Bob's average hit points because for simplicity the game assumes Bob is just like every other Babua. If you cast a high level summon monster spell you get Bob, David, and Tony because that variable(how many) is called out. If you can't call or gate Bob in and make him stronger(more hp), and those spells allow Bob to possibly stab you in the face among other things then it would make no sense for the weaker summon monster spell to do such things either.
If you want the monsters to be stronger than normal there are feats such as augment summon for that.
PS:The monster's hit points are not a variable of the spell. If we are just arguing a potential house rule then that should be stated so anyone who comes here is not confused.
FTFY
Okay.. genius...
What's the average value of the following numbers:
3, 3, 3, 3, 3, and 3.
What's the highest? What's the lowest?
:)
-James
pedantic - marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects
Of course the context of the conversation here is a situation where the population of animals the spell is summoning from would literally be in the billions, which means the odds of every single animal having the same hit points is as close to zero as you can get in this universe. In that situation, apart from that ridiculously vanishingly small chance, of course it is absolutely valid and accurate to say "there is a better than average".