One of my players decided to play a Paladin recently, and asked me about the gods of my campaign setting. I'll admit, I hadn't given much thought to them until now (for some reason, somehow, it's never been a huge issue). But I think the big problem is the fact that I'm TERRIBLY brain-dead on how to incorporate something like "the divine" into my specific setting. Let me explain:
The setting itself is fairly abstract and isn't always completely understandable, but thats been done on purpose! Thats because the setting itself is a dream. The plane has fallen asleep and dreamt up whatever it wants, including humans, elves, orcs, monsters (nightmares), etc. Spellcasters are able to manipulate the world to their bidding through the power of lucidity (which is basically the understanding that you are, in fact, dreaming, and can thus do whatever you want - if you're really interested, I suggest you look it up; it's fascinating stuff).
Gods have never fit into the equation... I never felt the need for them, and in my games they were always left on the back burner. Technically, since magic is the way it is, I never felt the need for there to be a differentiation between divine and arcane magic, but (like the gods) its always been there, just in the background and never before brought to my attention. I understand that there could just be a cleric or paladin that worships some sort of ideal or whatnot, but I would really like to substantiate something for them (and yes, I do understand that this technically contradicts what I said earlier about abstraction, but bear with me).
The thing is, I'm not looking for your standard "big guns from upstairs" approach on gods, in fact, I'm not even looking to necessarily exemplify a singular being so much as have a "religion." And now that I've thought about it, I really can't think of how to explain them. Sure, maybe you could worship the Dreamer (the plane), but that always felt more druidic to me. Should "gods" just be really renown people who aren't so much omnipotent as they are powerful? Should people just worship certain ideals?
I've thought of maybe having some really strange dreamt-up things that people could revere (a giant gear that floats in the sky), but that always gave off a sot of isolated tribal feel. I've dug deep into my wells of creativity and books on psychology to see if maybe there's some gold to be had there... but alas, I haven't stumbled upon any. Can anybody spur some imagination into me? Or am I hopelessly blabbing on about something that doesn't make sense?
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You're not babbling at all, and nifty ideas by the way. Hard to do! As for gods, you immediately put me in mind of Jungian archetypes -- and a far future sci-fi novel I read about an private-eye whose title escapes me.
What about this: gods are the accumulated memes common to all sentient beings. The idea turns on the existence of free will. Although the plane has 'dreamt up' the beings which inhabit it, it has dreamt beings who themselves have independent sentience and dream. 'Gods' occur whenever the universal figures common throughout the dreaming of the multitude are also a figure dreamed by the plane, thus reinforcing it.
Gods are very alien and its not clear if they are entirely sentient. More like, reactive with a purpose. For example, Murder is probably a god as is a King figure. But you can't talk to Murder and if you interact with it too much, well, bad things can happen. On the other hand, it empowers and is empowered by the act of murder throughout the plane. The King figure rules and commands what encounters it, but its agenda is not clear because ruling and commanding, not planning, are all it does. Keep it a mystery precisely how sentient and intelligent are the gods, with various sects arguing -- even warring -- over it. Maybe they have agendas, maybe they are simply to alien to fit into a category like 'agenda'. Have the gods wander the plane, spotted randomly going about there business but have the obvlivious to mortals. They just don't notice us. The world we live in is as a dream to them.
They are like a structure made from the same material as the plane -- the dream -- itself, but are filled, fueled and animated by all the dreams of all mortals, themselves dreamed by the planes.
The gods in this structure are energies that one can tap -- at the risk of being noticed by the god. They are forces something like a hurricane or a tsunami. The jury is still out on whether praying or other acts propitiates them or encourages them to favor or dislike specific individuals. No one has done a study on whether the "response" of the gods to requests for intercession is random or not. The lucid see the forces at work within the gods and not just the gods-as-beings. Perhaps a prerequisite to being a priest is first being a lucid magician?
Perhaps a priest is merely a magician enraptured of the dream-force coalesced within a god whose mind has been altered by contact with the god. Perhaps all priests are slightly mad and slightly covetous of their ability to touch the divine -- as well as in danger of being consumed if they touch it too much. Perhaps this is somewhat addictive. Perhaps Paladins are not called directly by the god but designated a Paladin by priests who create a channel between the god and the Paladin, with themselves as an semi-addicted conduit for the divine energies. Could get a lot of personal and political friction out of that, if it jazzes you.
Some great powers pose as gods to fool other mortals. Prayers are really repetitive invocations through which a priest quells their own consciousness and fills it with the meme structure of the archetype in question, calling on the King for a 'command' or 'dominate' spell for expample.
Something like that. Here's hoping I provided some creativity food. Like I said, neat idea you have going there.
You're not babbling at all, and nifty ideas by the way. Hard to do! As for gods, you immediately put me in mind of Jungian archetypes -- and a far future sci-fi novel I read about an private-eye whose title escapes me.
Aha! Nice to see another person knowledgeable of good ol' Carl. I've always been intrigued with dreams, and I decided I'd finally weave one of my favorite things with it (D&D) to create this setting (I've been working/DMing on/in it for about 4 years now, and it's still rough around the edges).
As for that novel, if you think of the name please point me in its direction. I'd love a good read!
What about this: gods are the accumulated memes common to all sentient beings. The idea turns on the existence of free will. Although the plane has 'dreamt up' the beings which inhabit it, it has dreamt beings who themselves have independent sentience and dream. 'Gods' occur whenever the universal figures common throughout the dreaming of the multitude are also a figure dreamed by the plane, thus reinforcing it.
Wow. This is gold right here, ladies and gentlemen. First of all, I'm very surprised you got the gist of the setting without me really needing to further explain it. Secondly, the idea of gods being memetic had actually occurred to me a while ago, but I clearly didn't think far enough into it... I love what you've done with it here [/gush].
Gods are very alien and its not clear if they are entirely sentient. More like, reactive with a purpose. For example, Murder is probably a god as is a King figure. But you can't talk to Murder and if you interact with it too much, well, bad things can happen. On the other hand, it empowers and is empowered by the act of murder throughout the plane. The King figure rules and commands what encounters it, but its agenda is not clear because ruling and commanding, not planning, are all it does. Keep it a mystery precisely how sentient and intelligent are the gods, with various sects arguing -- even warring -- over it. Maybe they have agendas, maybe they are simply to alien to fit into a category like 'agenda'. Have the gods wander the plane, spotted randomly going about there business but have the obvlivious to mortals. They just don't notice us. The world we live in is as a dream to them.
They are like a structure made from the same material as the plane -- the dream -- itself, but are filled, fueled and animated by all the dreams of all mortals, themselves dreamed by the planes.
The gods in this structure are energies that one can tap -- at the risk of being noticed by the god. They are forces something like a hurricane or a tsunami. The jury is still out on whether praying or other acts propitiates them or encourages them to favor or dislike specific individuals. No one has done a study on whether the "response" of the gods to requests for intercession is random or not. The lucid see the forces at work within the gods and not just the gods-as-beings. Perhaps a prerequisite to being a priest is first being a lucid magician?
Perhaps a priest is merely a magician enraptured of the dream-force coalesced within a god whose mind has been altered by contact with the god. Perhaps all priests are slightly mad and slightly covetous of their ability to touch the divine -- as well as in danger of being consumed if they touch it too much. Perhaps this is somewhat addictive. Perhaps Paladins are not called directly by the god but designated a Paladin by priests who create a channel between the god and the Paladin, with themselves as an semi-addicted conduit for the divine energies. Could get a lot of personal and political friction out of that, if it jazzes you.
Some great powers pose as gods to fool other mortals. Prayers are really repetitive invocations through which a priest quells their own consciousness and fills it with the meme structure of the archetype in question, calling on the King for a 'command' or 'dominate' spell for expample.
Something like that. Here's hoping I provided some creativity food. Like I said, neat idea you have going there.
Thanks a ton Louis, I never expected to get this good of a reply on my first shot. I was always afraid to really sit down and post something about it; I thought I'd look like some babbling idiot trying to explain all that I had in my head. I'm glad I succeeded in summing it up nicely enough for you to drop this excellent food for thought post.
If I had a cookie to give, you'd have earned it :]. And thanks for the compliments on my setting, it's very encouraging.
I too like your origin story. It also encourages plane traveling. Who wouldn't want to see if they cold find the original dreamer?
As to advice about gods, I have found that the most intriguing gods are those that has aspects normally considered unrelated. Juxtapositions are much more intriguing over the long term then simple concepts.
Examples:
God of the sun & death (giant ball of fire in the sky)
God of healing and war (God of splitting and mending flesh)
God of fertility and death (God of harvest)
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Weave05,
Glad it worked for you! I love creative brainstorming. And ArchLich - of course, who wouldn't want to find the original dreamer! What an awesome quest only to find the world is the original dreamer.
Hey - I wonder if divination works because people put their minds in synch with the dream of the plane itself. As in a dream, the plane knows things it couldn't know, including how things will go in the 'future'. People, as in a dream, are both themselves and another person, etc. And the diviner catches snatches of the plane's meta dream.
This makes the obscurity of poets, prophets and oracles make a lot of sense -- because their source is the dream of nature itself. Their source is as in/coherent as any dream, in an alien mind, and they have to interpret that.
Just a thought.
Oooh - you should have a god of dreaming and divination maybe?
*munches weave05's cookie happily and strolls off humming*
This makes me think of:
"I have known gods. He who denies them is as blind as he who trusts them too deeply. I seek not beyond death. It may be the blackness averred by Nemedian skeptics, or Crom’s realm of ice and cloud, or the snowy plains and vaulted halls of the Nordheimer’s Valhalla. I know not, nor do I care. Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content." – Conan of Cimmeria
EDIT: One thing to consider is that divine folks do not have to actually worship deities, they can worship ideals. In your dream setting these ideals can take on manifestations that appear as deities, but they are still ideals. A paladin might worship the idea of a perfect knight, and that may manifest into a creation that is similar to herionous (sp?).
Weave05,
Glad it worked for you! I love creative brainstorming. And ArchLich - of course, who wouldn't want to find the original dreamer! What an awesome quest only to find the world is the original dreamer.
Hey - I wonder if divination works because people put their minds in synch with the dream of the plane itself. As in a dream, the plane knows things it couldn't know, including how things will go in the 'future'. People, as in a dream, are both themselves and another person, etc. And the diviner catches snatches of the plane's meta dream.
This makes the obscurity of poets, prophets and oracles make a lot of sense -- because their source is the dream of nature itself. Their source is as in/coherent as any dream, in an alien mind, and they have to interpret that.
Just a thought.
Oooh - you should have a god of dreaming and divination maybe?
*munches weave05's cookie happily and strolls off humming*
Again Louis, this is great stuff! I've been tinkering with the methods behind the schools of magic, but I had only put the slightest effort into it. Currently, I'm trying to work out necromancy, but it's a little tough (I haven't determined what happens to people when they die and are buried in the Dream).
Evocation I thought of as being a sort of physical manifestation of passion and emotion, like a fire from the soul or the cold of a blackened heart. It involves perfect control over emotion and feeling, to manifest the desired result (of course, this is just a rough draft, I might completely change it at another time... it doesn't seem to compatible with some other evocation spells).
Now, Illusion should be something I've given thought to, because it seems like it would only logically fit in such a setting, but I actually haven't worked anything into it yet. I'll do a little brainstorming on that...
Speaking of brainstorms, I've been also thinking about having certain weather patterns represent various thought or dream processes of the plane (probably the former, because I have a metallic monolith with the initials R.E.M. on it, as well as an endless amount of intricate carvings that tell a tale from a different time (I see it as this: once in every so many thousands of years or whatever, the plane undergoes the sleeping cycle. The current world [dream] is destroyed/ends before the REM cycle, and when in its REM state, the world conjures up [dreams] a new world with new creatures. To them, the whole span of time is so incomprehensibly huge that they're able to develop and advance society from simple cavemen to complex political systems.) The REM monolith is the single thing that all the worlds have in common; it remains unchanged and always in the same place no matter what the dream.
Oh dear... it appears as though I just used up a lot of space just to say nothing at all really, heh. Oh well, it was a good mental exercise for me.
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This makes me think of:
"I have known gods. He who denies them is as blind as he who trusts them too deeply. I seek not beyond death. It may be the blackness averred by Nemedian skeptics, or Crom’s realm of ice and cloud, or the snowy plains and vaulted halls of the Nordheimer’s Valhalla. I know not, nor do I care. Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content." – Conan of Cimmeria
EDIT: One thing to consider is that divine folks do not have to actually worship deities, they can worship ideals. In your dream setting these ideals can take on manifestations that appear as deities, but they are still ideals. A paladin might worship the idea of a perfect knight, and that may manifest into a creation that is similar to herionous (sp?).
Gods that prose sings! I get chills whenever I read it. Thanks Pres man. Good thought on the 'no need to worship' ...
It's all a dream, right? And you play on the assumption that dreams are thoughts made manifest, a way for the mind to work out things?
Gods are those things. They are the dreamer's really big issues.
Usually, over the course of a day, you have several issues, both positive and negative, you will try to work out in your dreams. They will be personified, objectified, thematicised. They will often be in disguise. Your misgivings about your father's recent decisions might translate into that weird guy you think you should know who blathers inconherent gibberish.
So each god will be one issue, made manifest, cloaked, disguised, transformed, idealised. You don't necessary know what they're about, not at first, but you will interact with them.
And that is what priests are: They help you work out your issues. At first, they will see the guy talking gibberish, and try to understand him. As they gain experience, they gain a better understanding what they're dealing with, from vague suspicions to final certainty. That's why you start with weak stuff like bless (because you just know that this guy talks gibberish and try to understand what language he speaks in) and end up with storm of vengeance and miracle (because you realise it's your father's weird decisions, and finally get behind his reasonings).
So you need to get a picture of what your plane's big issues are, and how to translate them into deities. Maybe have several levels of descriptions for your deities:
One source you might look into is H.P. Lovecraft's Dream Cycle, specificially his Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. Seems like it's right up your alley and a lot of it might fit wholecloth into your setting.
There is also a setting in the works by our very own Clinton Boomer through Rite Publishing, called Coliseum Morpheuon which takes place entirely within the Plane of Dreams. That might be worth looking into. Everything Boomer does is gold.
Anyway, like so many others here I have to compliment you on your very brave and original fantasy setting. Sounds very cool.
Example: Cayden Cailean, the Drunken Hero
Good posts by others, hehe gonna stand on my soapbox for a few; bear with hehe.
First thing I think you should consider is what number of dieties are best for your game; one overall god, perhaps with many aspects that have cult followings; two diameterically opposed dieties; dark/vs light or good vs evil; or law vs chaos; that sort of thing. Or, would you rather have a multitude of dieties like one huge dysfunctional family. Give this some serious consideration as for the long term affects as this will have a lot to do with shaping your diety concept and shaping in game worshipers. It pretty easy for a player to wrap their head around; this is the good guy; that is the bad guy; it is a lot more sublte to have a dieity of Victory; victory has no morality; a good guy or evil guy could both achieve victory. Having a diety of Love; well that is a big barrel of monkeys, beetles and worms; look up Love in the Oxford English dictionary; or any good dictionary and anything that takes more than a few senteces to explain is not very well understood; Love takes several pages with many subtle variations. This is kinda cool as there are several of these things; so religious heritics can be come part of your game and splinter groups and whatnot as various people interpret and understand the diety differently.
ok; next consideration:
In game terms; where do the dieties get their power. This is a fundamental question that defines the relationship between diety and worshipper. If you have dieties that exist from mortal desire and are fueled by mortal worship; well, they are going to be a lot more interactive about gaining worshipers. If you have dieties who just have their power and no amount of worship changes their abilities; their relationship with mortals is going to be far different as are thier goals. I suggest you have a few dieties of the second sort; kinda like parents of the dieties of the first sort; that kind of dychotomy works well for me.
here is how my game is set up after the knowledge I have gained in over 30 years of running my homebrew:
1) One overall diety - unknown to mortals
2) Three very powerful dieties who serve the first; known to a handful of mortals, independent of mortals.
3)"father/creator" type dieties who head pantheons are represent the baseline beliefs and desires of an entire culture. Knows of the Three; suspects the One.
4) A multitude of dieties that define the other aspects of a culture much like the Greek Pantheon with some more powerful and some less powerful with of course more of the less powerful and few of the more powerful; usually they define science and human thought; so if Apollo is the sun god; for that culture; he really does drive the Sun accross the sky and if he doesnt; that really is a dark day. The height of pc expression of their goals can be to become a demigod; a demigod to me is the ultimate expression and union between mortal and immortal. The interplay this group four constantly shifts perception, science and realitiy as followers fuel different dieties; wars between religions are common. these dieties know if group three; but only the most introspective of them suspect group 2.
hope this helps.
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Example: Cayden Cailean, the Drunken Hero
Layperson/Acolyte: Cayden is the god of bravery, alcohol and freedom, his domains are..., his favoured weapon is...
Initiate: Cayden is said to have ascended to godhood while totally hammered, and doesn't remember this trial during the Test of the Star Stone. He encourages you to eat, drink and be merry, and seems to get confidence when he drinks. He likes freedom
Adept: His driving force seems to be his struggle against slavery and other forms of tyranny and bereavement of freedom. He uses alcohol as a crutches because he thinks he isn't brave enough to stand up to bullies without it. The acolyte has a vague feeling that there is a deeper message about hidden strengths and crutches.
Hierophant: Issue behind the avatar "Cayden" is that the universe is not content with the state of things concerning Freedom, but doesn't realise that it has the power to change this itself. Instead, ot relies on agents to right wrongs on a case-by-case basis, battling devils one at a time instead of realising it can obliterate hell itself.
Ascendant: The goal of every cleric of Cayden needs to use their power against hell forcefully enough to make the universe realise that it is its very own power that can combat hell. With enough efforts, the clergy will one day be able to open the universe's eyes and make it realise that it has the power itself.
Hey KaeYoss,
I like your structure. Nice riff. Such an approach should lend thematic depth while preserving mystery. How would you approach the self-awareness of your version of dream-gods? How self-aware are they? How aware of being dreams are they? If aware on both accounts, how do they feel about it? How they feel about it might provide extremely interesting motivations and agendas. I can see a potent god wanting to be something else besides someones issue of the day -- and scheming accordingly.
Example: Cayden Cailean, the Drunken Hero
Layperson/Acolyte: Cayden is the god of bravery, alcohol and freedom, his domains are..., his favoured weapon is...
Initiate: Cayden is said to have ascended to godhood while totally hammered, and doesn't remember this trial during the Test of the Star Stone. He encourages you to eat, drink and be merry, and seems to get confidence when he drinks. He likes freedom
Adept: His driving force seems to be his struggle against slavery and other forms of tyranny and bereavement of freedom. He uses alcohol as a crutches because he thinks he isn't brave enough to stand up to bullies without it. The acolyte has a vague feeling that there is a deeper message about hidden strengths and crutches.
Hierophant: Issue behind the avatar "Cayden" is that the universe is not content with the state of things concerning Freedom, but doesn't realise that it has the power to change this itself. Instead, ot relies on agents to right wrongs on a case-by-case basis, battling devils one at a time instead of realising it can obliterate hell itself.
Ascendant: The goal of every cleric of Cayden needs to use their power against hell forcefully enough to make the universe realise that it is its very own power that can combat hell. With enough efforts, the clergy will one day be able to open the universe's eyes and make it realise that it has the power itself.
Now this is interesting as well. My paladin's player would surely enjoy the mystery behind his deity and the path to enlightenment... and I think I would have a lot of fun crafting one up (with many twists and turns, to keep it from being too simple). In one sense though, I don't think I would want the ability to ascend to godhood. Rather, I would like to keep gods as mysterious figures/beings/things that appear as very distant (but that wouldn't necessarily mean they wouldn't interact with their worshippers; they would just do so in very subtle or obscured ways). Of course, this is just a simple nitpick in an otherwise excellent setup. And I do LOVE this little explanation you have here, it could keep the gods interesting and involved throughout the whole campaign with the player. It would build up relationship and compassion between them, and they wouldn't seem so tacked on. Of course, if I chose this course, there would probably be many gods (or at least, many facets to each god so as to make them interesting to other players who want to worship them).
Thanks KaeYoss!
So, what happens if the universe solves an issue? Continuing with the example above, what happens if the universe realizes it has the power to simply will hell out of existence (it being just a part of the dream) and does so? Does the issue represented by Cayden find a new goal? Does it linger as an echoing memory of what was? Or does it no longer have a purpose and simply dissappear with the issue that spawned it? If the last of those, then the pantheon would be quite mutable, which might not be a bad thing for this dream world. One of the problems in getting to know some gods may be that they simply don't exist long enough for people to figure things out.
Or all logic could be totally thrown out the window, as in a true dream; i.e., learning of a god for the first time, a god which is newly formed, yet you know already and have always known to be there. You could use that to make a pantheon that's infinitely mutible and infinitely stable simultaneously, with all the weird contradictions that come in true dreams.