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I think we've really got a lot more structure for the discussions now, and going forward things will be even easier to do for future APs and even starfinder products.
The new discussion is up with timestamps here on the channel.
Expect my complete review of Spore War Book 3 to follow, but for now the short version is here on the product review page.
I am immensely shocked to find my rating of the 3 books are the highest of those available thus far. Hopefully that will change, but I cannot say I am surprised. Not enough war in spore war, and it did feel like a spy/mission impossible AP instead of an actual all out war with Treerazer which is what we came for, and that suffers a lot since the war interludes themselves are just cutscenes the players cannot participate or contribute towards outside a subsystem decision. Not the best way to have handled this, as Podfinder offered up alternatives to make it a bit more hands on for the players in book 2's discussion.
Mythkeeper was extremely excited for this, and insightful with his rundown of the Deep dive of Kyonin he recently released which pairs very well with this adventure. I advise people check that out.
He felt some of the boons from the countries at the end were a bit lack luster, or broad stroked. A few he even disagreed with like Ustalav using necromancers, as he states their relationship with undead and necromancers has been negative.
Iron, Ryan, and I also made some suggestions for Druma and the Knights of Lastwall in particular whom seemed to be rather a bit behind the other countries in terms of meaningful contributions- and offered some advice for reworking as well. The Blackcoats for instance assuming the identity of mercenaries where Treerazer is looking to hire them in book 2 and then turning on him mid battle, or Lastwall doing more than just a heal for their action.
We've very eager to see what other people think about the module while prepping it even though Treerazer is undoubtedly a year or more away for most of you , and what other GMs have to say about the content. Podfinder will be chiming in later, and is compiling his own notes from the discussion as he had a family emergency which kept him, though I expect he will be posting his own "So you want to run/play" series on Sporewars sometime in the future. He expressed he will be willing to join in future discussions as well.
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I suppose the first thing I should look at first is not the module itself as a whole or even book 3, but the offical reaction to the module getting its proper release from a childhood keepsake colored pencil creation to full AP. The creative director remarked on stream that he is his own worst critic. I hope he can become a better critic of himself, so the work will improve to reflect it.
We know that every AP needs at least 3 writers, or it cannot be approved for production. This led to the initial paizo live stream with it being said that one writer was let on simply to make the AP happen, and their contribution in book 1 was to be focused on material they wanted. Namely Razmir and making the Knights of Everflame part of the official cannon. What we got was a collection of society play adventures dealing with Tarby that lead to a Treerazer adventure seed cutting down the AP down to 2 books, which is the material they had to show for the two writers originally on board.
“Manage your expectations,” is not something said when you are confident in your product, nor to tell customers after the advertisements and marketing are done. While the end fights of two books were passionately done and fulfilling, the lead up to them with infiltration and numerous other subsystems are essentially pure filler. This is a trend we’ve seen a lot from paizo in the last year of APs. Some of the GMs I talk with feel this is laziness, and I have personally proven it’s not substantial or entertaining content for players in my past discussion for Whispers in the Dirt, nor The Secret of Deathstalk Tower. It’s a logistical war, and fought in the shadows for the PCs.
Paizo advertised and marketed this as Spore War. They were projecting a full scale direct war with Treerazer for the elves, and neglected to mention for the players this wouldn’t be the case in gameplay. As some of you may have noticed over the past year, I have become very good at making predictions based on the evidence before me and the way I can critical read and digest the material rather than skimming and becoming enthralled by the art on day 1, alongside the various returning NPCs for the sake of member berries referencing the forums feedback allowed a cameo to happen. I’ll take better content over a returning NPC anyday.
Yes the Queen and Shalelu are nice, but I wasn’t here for PF1E so I don’t suffer from the rose tinted goggles. They exist solely in the background for a majority of this adventure. Everything I need I’ve read in preparation of my AP examination from those previous modules. I did my leg work, and ultimately it didn’t add anything to the experience. It in fact showed the material is incomplete due to a new retconning book coming out due to the ancestries involved with the Drow no longer existing, and the Spore Queen’s prior defeat as a succubus.
The main problems of the AP as a whole are as follows:
1) See Book summaries in Chapter 1 Book 1 of Whispers in the Dirt – “But even more amazing, the elven gods themselves have taken notice ...”
Book 3 However says at the end of Chapter 1: “ Such a gift won’t trigger divine allies of Treerazer…”
What divine allies does Treerazer have? He’s an outcast who is viewed as weak and that’s how he likes it. Where is this divine help coming from? It’s not his father. We know that from all the memories and interference where he directly contacts the players. We already have the full backmatter on Worship of Treerazer and there were no allies listed among them.. This is a pretty huge thing to casually drop and then move away from essentially telling the DM and players “Don’t think about this”. Was Typhon going to originally help or pursue the players? Cyth-V’sug will definitely not be helping. Ydersius and Abraxas are mentioned, but never connected to him.
2) The missing ancestries and undead in the Darklands. We have no occupants of the Darklands to witness anything that’s happened with Treerazer’s plan in the last few centuries despite knowing the serpentfolk, cavern elves, and others are all watching their front yards and possible demon worshipers themselves. So no aid or resistance to Treerazer’s minions and Jeharlu spores being set up when physically these demons are unmistakably his. No one seeks to gain influence with Kyonin by telling them this, or risk exposing their own involvement if any.
3) The Jeharlu spores at the end of Book 1 being “discovered” and then placed as an immediate threat the elves must deal with and actively find by Whispers in the Dirt’s conclusion.
Book 2 declaring right off that these spores are protected by magical wards that didn’t exist in book 1, which would have taken away from the escalated ending and the demon responsible for detonating because he supposedly had no other choice being found out.
Book 3 where the Jeharlu spores cease existing, but were inferred to be Treerazer’s biggest wide reaching weapon scattered throughout Kyonin. They are not used in the siege, the final battle, or found; nor are they even present with the adventure seeds in the back matter.
Clearly missing, I am led to believe the author of the third book left the lab in Witchbole to explain their manufacturing and distribution, but wasn’t required to showcase their solution since they were told it would be dealt with at this point of the story, which they were not. The author of Book 2 simply put them on hold, and they were never touched again past that point.
4) A missed opportunity for the ‘Speak with Plants’ spell which is underutilized or not given a chance to shine in this adventure. Several usages for it exist at least in book 2 to gain circumstance bonuses and at the DM's discretion it can be used, but doesn’t circumvent obstacles. Druids, Tree Kineticists, and Animists don’t get much in the way of class identity for this shortcoming along with other abilities they possess. Talking corpse gets more highlight and usage along with direct rewards.
5) Shalelu and her rangers aren’t the scouts kidnapped by Treerazer in the Witchbole come book 3. That was the perfect place to reach back and rescue them for some satisfaction and character development. Another missed opportunity as the Queen gets captured, or killed if players so much as sneeze.
6) Treerazer’s clone has no free will and doesn’t rob his father of the Blackaxe utilizing the same abilities of returning to his hands, and is functionally a brute encounter rather than something tangible we can learn from and further exploit in the final battle. He is essentially Treerazer controlling a less powerful version of himself to delay the players.
There we go, all out of the way.
“A Return to Memory” starts us off with not informing the queen of victory or ensuring that she resurrects the elven wizard we strived to save- and thus giving more power to the war against Treerazer. Okay, well that seems to follow the players would immediately contact her at the very least. Less work to write the detour than the excuse. The message meant for Sisafex is broadcasting with the added message of anyone to come help. That seems like it can wait, but the adventure wants the players to move on after that brutal infiltration adventure from last time to the next brutal infiltration adventure.
There seems to be no actual war with Treerazer’s forces-simply “now this happens”. Most media like bad movies suffer from this sort of jumping around, there is no time to decompress and inform the queen.
Typhon’s reveal doesn’t hit hard, again I know nothing about the lore. This is why I reached out to Mythkeeper and Podfinder, I did my own reading and found out about the previous archduke of hell, the red angel, and Asmodeous all coming down on him ordering his destruction for the relationship he had with the demonlord Lamashu.
I can infer why that is something Asmodeous wants to keep secret, but it’s implied he doesn’t even care from the explanation the writer gives. If my player who is a champion of Avathreal wasn’t here, I’d have stopped focusing on it altogether, but there is history and substance for the player to work with. This is more of an afterthought and an out for the players to get them to sign a contract. The secret is something even Typhon doesn’t keep with a congregation and altar inside the prison. Best kept secret in hell perhaps, not outside of hell.
The Wizard is kept behind a wall of force, and then more freeing of captive souls leads to the Elven Gods making the relics into legendary items. This jail break doesn’t alert Treerazer at all because the plot says not too. We don’t have time to explore that, or his reaction to the wizard being resurrected to help defend the Iadara. 100 page limit is about giving the GM what they need after all.
“The Siege of the Iadara” Introduces Treerazer’s clone which seems like such a great concept. Can he wield the Blackaxe and make it fly into his hands, slaying his “father” and taking over his domain because Treerazer is weak now inside of the cocoon? No. That would be character development and dramatic ironic and we have no time for satisfying conclusions. It's a mindless telepathically controlled spawn that's an HP sponge to delay players.
Looking into the demonlord’s past memories while he looks at the players is a fantastic idea, but exists just to score more points for the subsystem and not even an opportunity for roleplay.
War Interludes: In Book 2 it was easier to include the players in these as Podfinder recommended, but in Book 3 they are just there to discuss what’s happening while the PCs conduct the infiltrations and are mainly separate from the elven people’s action. During the siege it can be worked in a bit, but the elves really have to fend for themselves with whatever pennies the players are willing to throw their way. I updated my resource for keeping track of the points used and the 6 day countdown is the hardest to accommodate towards, so best to end it asap to keep from spending more TP.
The Delegates and Country contribution in the Treerazer fight: there is no getting around that Razmir is the absolute most on point contribution. The dark humor and sacrifice just to delay a turn from TR is hilarious.
Mythkeeper in particular was not pleased with several of the countries contributions, and we all agreed that Lastwall’s was the weakest with the simple healing, and that will need to be significantly improved by the DM.
Ustalav was another that caught our attention as hMythkeepr stated that Ustalav’s relationship with necromancers is shaky at best due to the Tarby. They wouldn’t implement necromancers as a weapon in Mythkeeper's experience. A lot of the contributions felt like ‘broad strokes’ according to MK, and they didn’t really land as appropriately as Razmir's (The best with dark humor) or feel like they were worth the effort.