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Going back to "the message". Although I think of it as an insult to comic book fans.I still don’t understand the stance that this is an insult to comic fans. How so?
Well, to be honest, that's more a "my hope" that most actual comic book Superman fans would see the reinvention of Superman's Kryptonian parents as evil supremacists who are no better than Zod as an insult. Who knows, though? Maybe there aren't enough left, and modern fans are okay with the change.
But, yes, I think such a reinvention of the characters would be insulting to fans. Taking a long held canon that Jor-El and Lara weren't evil and instead turning them into something closer to General Zod. If Gunn then kept the canon that Jor-El was a leading scientist of Krypton, it would further imply that most or all of Krypton thought the same way when the planet was destroyed.
Granted, again this is also predicated on the whether Gunn retcons his retcon. After watching the movie again, I think Gunn did intend for the video to be real, but seems to have changed his mind when it seemed to prove unpopular. Which I can at least give him credit for listening to fan criticism. Still, I think it could be made to work for future stories and still restore Jor-El and Lara to being NOT evil.
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Jor-El and Lara being benevolent and kind aliens isn’t from the comics though. Jor-El was always aloof at best, Lara had barely any characterization beyond being sad to let Kal-El go. Even the version from the Silver age which basically tired Jor-El into a thinly veiled John Carter knock off was an arrogant jerk.
Byrne made the El’s out and out derisive and condescending about humanity; Post Rebirth Jor-El was flat out a villain albeit one manipulated into being one.
Various Elseworld’s El’s have said things more clearly villainous than what was said in S25.
The “good” version of the characters were mostly products of Brando and York’s performances in S:TM and S2 respectively.
It’s hard to feel like this is an insult to my fandom when it’s barely even connected to it.
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Well, I never said "benevolent and kind". I just said they typically aren't depicted as evil, with behavior closer to Zod's. That's where I felt the insult came in, making them just as bad as Zod. And potentially the rest of Krypton by implication.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. That's nothing new. Fans have been doing it for years. I am, nevertheless, glad that Gunn seems to realize it was unpopular and seems to be moving away from the "It's the real message". Unless he's changed his mind again.
Although I did forget about the changes after Rebirth, which is, I think, a big transition point for the comic industry towards a far younger (than me, anyway), modern audience. Of course, I don't think the problems with Rebirth limited themselves to Superman.
Giving instructions on how to carry Krypton’s legacy forward by fathering many children isn’t “behavior closer to Zod”
I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill
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Jor-El: The people there are simple and profoundly confused; weak of mind, spirit, and body. Lord over the planet as the Last Son of Krypton.
Lara Lor-Van: Dispatch of anyone unable or unwilling to serve you, Kal-El. Take as many wives as you can so your genes and Krypton’s might and legacy will live on in this new frontier.
Jor-El: Do us proud, our beloved son. Rule without mercy.
Sure sounds like something Zod might say.
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“ On this third planet from the star Sol, you will be a god among men. They are a flawed race. Rule them with strength, my son. That is where your greatness lies." - Jor-El - Smallville 2003
Jor-El: “In time he will become the supreme being on their planet, almost a god.”
Lara Lor-Van: “Then he will rule them? Reshape them into proper Kryptonian ways?”
Jor-El: “Perhaps.”
Man of Steel 1986
So, what you're saying is Hollywood has some fetish about being dominated by aliens?
That actually explains a lot.
No, what I’m saying is that the comics had a nearly identical depiction in the 1980’s.
Smallville’s Jor-El said almost verbatim what Gunn’s Jor-El said. Those weren’t “insulting”
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Ah, that's why Man of Steel said 1986. My brain immediately went to the Snyder film from a few years ago. Although that still doesn't change that Hollywood probably does have some weird domination fetish.
Still, methinks "Dispatch of anyone unable or unwilling to serve you" and "Rule without Mercy" are far more brutal and "Zod-like". And the depiction of Jor-El in Smallville was kind of a-hole-ish as well.
Man of Steel's "Perhaps" he'll rule them is still a far cry from that.
As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. I found Gunn's depiction insulting. I imagine other people did as well, hence the backlash that perhaps contributed to Gunn walking it back. You apparently did not.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Just saw it, and enjoyed it overall. I still think it would have been a better Superman 2 movie, even if they skipped the origin story, having more set up for Lex/Superman rivalry before this story would have made it better. Also, while I get that the movie is 3 years into Superman's appearance, Lex felt way to accomplished to just in backstory have created a pocket universe prison, as well as having a baby kaiju ready to go as a distraction when he chose.
Also, aside from just being there to be introduced, it felt like Hawkgirl could have easily not been in the movie at all. It would have also helped a bit with the huge cast of characters by having one less.
As for the message, I assumed that a) it was "real" in the sense that it wasn't doctored, but b) was still manipulated. We know next to nothing about how much was restored - so it could be that every frame of footage was real, but there was still a tone unrecovered, and if you were to fill in the blanks, the message could have meant many other things. It's possible that what was recovered was still less than 50% of the full message, or that other parts were recovered, and conveniently just kept secret by Lex and not shared with the world. More convoluted explanations could also work, but it's super common in the real world to conveniently exclude bits of footage to give a very different message, and in fact, that's often what's done with political attack messages.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Also, "making money" is much murkier with streaming services involved. Not only are there direct TVOD rental/purchases which are pretty easy to account for, but there are the harder to measure benefits of how many subscriptions to HBO does it drive - I did read that it had 13M viewers in the first week on HBO (and I myself subscribed yesterday for a month to watch it and Peacemaker). When you factor that in, I'm sure it made money, not to mention all the licensing.