So according to 4E, you don't really need a DM to run a game. Now a DM can be replaced by a series of Combat cards, that you draw from to pick your random encounter..........If I had read this on a message board pre-release I would have thought someone was wanking with me. This really is a sick joke.
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So according to 4E, you don't really need a DM to run a game. Now a DM can be replaced by a series of Combat cards, that you draw from to pick your random encounter..........If I had read this on a message board pre-release I would have thought someone was wanking with me. This really is a sick joke.
Explain?
There is a section in the DMG that suggests that for nights when you don't have a DM available or when you want to play but do not have any adventure planned out, you might have a series of cards with encounters on them, and you could randomly pick a card and run the encounter, having the player on the left of the player's whose current turn it is run the monster that is currently "up to bat."
To be fair, this was a suggestion about playing when a DM isn't available, not a suggestion that you don't need a DM.
Since pretty much all the rules you need to play are in the PHB, the DMG is devoted almost 100% to how to DM the game. Trying to suggest that it honestly recommends you play without one is misleading at best.
At best.
Since pretty much all the rules you need to play are in the PHB, the DMG is devoted almost 100% to how to DM the game. Trying to suggest that it honestly recommends you play without one is misleading at best.
At best.
Well, again, to be fair, it does in fact recommend that if you want to play and a DM isn't available, that you can still play. It doesn't recommend this as the standard, or as a long term solution, but it does indeed recommend this course of action in some situations.
So, you know, maybe we shouldn't overreact in the opposite direction either and act like the statement wasn't in the DMG. Honestly, I can see where it could be viewed as an odd ball statement, and even the DMG says its kind of a strange suggestion.
So its not that the DMG says a DM is optional, but it does say that in extreme situations when you just have to play, there are ways to work around this issue.
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In fairness, although I dislike 4e, the comments therein about playing without a DM are not part of any plot to usurp the DM. In truth, back in the '80s, some nights we would just round up characters we hadn't used in a while and put them up against a black dragon. If some died in the process, it lightened our TRAPPER KEEPER binder of folders containing character sheets. (man, I'm really dating myself)
In fairness, the munchkin design of 4e pretty much ensures that those who are creatively-challenged now have the kewl creative stuff built in (reminiscent of bumper-bowling), so even munchkins can have a kewl game of dnd. But I believe the spirit of that comment is designed to point out to new players that there is fun in the game, even when the conventional game is not available.
But I believe the spirit of that comment is designed to point out to new players that there is fun in the game, even when the conventional game is not available.
That's how I took it as well.
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Sounds like directions for how to run a solitaire game (except with instructions for multiple people); I do it in CoC right now--in fact, I began In Search of the Wendigo for the millionth time a couple days ago. It's set up just as you describe, except there aren't cards, just encounter numbers you flip to.
Pax, are you capable of not being inflammatory?
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Seemed mild to me - he was suggesting that the 4e designers didn't have in for the DM, unlike the OP. Me, I have no idea since I'm not getting the books for a few month so that I get a version with the errata (mostly) ironed out, so can't comment on the veracity. But Pax's comment didn't read as imflammatory to me - quite the opposite (munchkin dissing aside, which I can more or less ignore).
And I have very happy memories of Alone Against the Wendigo - and turning into a wendigo, going mad and discovering bigfoot.
Well 1st and 3.5 DMGs have random dungeon generators and random monster tables. Its technically possible to play a game in those editions as well - though I'd not really consider them to be on par with the true D&D experience of playing with a DM in a well crafted adventure.
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So according to 4E, you don't really need a DM to run a game. Now a DM can be replaced by a series of Combat cards, that you draw from to pick your random encounter..........If I had read this on a message board pre-release I would have thought someone was wanking with me. This really is a sick joke.
This isn't new. First edition had random dungeon, terrain and encounter generators that gave instructions for solo play.
In fairness, although I dislike 4e, the comments therein about playing without a DM are not part of any plot to usurp the DM. In truth, back in the '80s, some nights we would just round up characters we hadn't used in a while and put them up against a black dragon. If some died in the process, it lightened our TRAPPER KEEPER binder of folders containing character sheets. (man, I'm really dating myself)
Nice! We used to do the same thing back in the Day. (I especially enjoyed the Trapper Keeper comment. Are those things still available?)
In fairness, the munchkin design of 4e pretty much ensures that those who are creatively-challenged now have the kewl creative stuff built in (reminiscent of bumper-bowling), so even munchkins can have a kewl game of dnd. But I believe the spirit of that comment is designed to point out to new players that there is fun in the game, even when the conventional game is not available.
Boo! Hiss! Come on Pax, this paragraph is a bit mean-spirited. I'm going to edit this for you in the spirit of gamesmanship:
In fairness, ..... I believe the spirit of that comment is designed to point out to new players that there is fun in the game, even when the conventional game is not available.
There! Now you don't sound like such a ......ah, nevermind.
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This isn't new. First edition had random dungeon, terrain and encounter generators that gave instructions for solo play.
Not to mention the entry that concludes Paizo's own "DRAGON Compendium Volume 1" :)
As for the OP - nothing could be further from the truth. As one of 4E's designers put it recently, making the DM happy is a central agenda of the game, since a happy DM makes for a happy group. Inversely, the happiest D&D groups are those with a happy DM, not those without a DM.
If you read the opening of the new DMG you get a passionate insistence on the DM being the game's most valuable 'asset', and that it is his presence which most distinguishes a RPG from other, similar games.
There's a couple of issues one may have about 4E, but downplaying the DM's importance for the game's enjoyment is not among them.
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This is a great example of why the SATs have been invalidated as a national barometer of education and academic potential (kids in Appalachia, NC who don't understand a sentence using 'California Rolls' and 'toboggan')--I'm not upset by the remarks of Pax, because I don't understand the references to a level that subconsciously (immediately, and without forethought) infuriates or offends me personally. I can guess--I know what a munchkin is (Wizard of Oz and Dunkin' Donuts, right), and 'creatively-challenged', while not Sunday morning-nice, wasn't directed at any individual or personality; the bumper-bowling comment wasn't off-base-- that's how I learned to bowl when I was a kid, so I can see canned encounters and the like in the same light, especially for a younger audience who has never played or participated in any way in an RPG--so what's there, really, to be mad about?
Seriously, I don't understand what's offensive or denigrating about what Pax wrote.
I wasn't offended.
And, as a DM for more than 20 years (not including my geographically-induced hiatus this last 10 months), I have found nights where I was definitely creatively-challenged and resorted to The Book of Lairs.
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I wasn't offended.I am glad that you were not - but that does not mean his comments were not offensive.
I'm not trying to be obtuse; what was offensive? Like I wrote, I can guess, but when I analyze the comments, they're not patently offensive.
EDIT: I looked up 'munchkin', and it seems to boil down to a term used to represent a player focused on creating and playing a powerful character, rather than role-playing, and / or an immature player who plays more aggressively than the other players, and is given to bickering, etc.
In this context, I'd say Pax might have misused the word, but I've never heard anyone use it in an actual game, so, maybe I don't really understand all the connotations.
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I'm not trying to be obtuse; what was offensive?
Ok, I will break it down ...
"In fairness, the munchkin design of 4e..." = 4e is designed by and for immature power gamers.
"pretty much ensures that those who are creatively-challenged" = AKA dumb munchkins
"now have the kewl creative stuff built in (reminiscent of bumper-bowling)" = so 4e is bumper bowling for gamers - short bus D&D. Oh, and throw in "kewl" to indicate that 4e is for those WoW kidz.
", so even munchkins can have a kewl game of dnd. = now any idiot can play.
How is it possible to read this an non-offensive?
Hit the nail on the head there.
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I'm not trying to be obtuse; what was offensive?
[explanation abridged]...How is it possible to read this an non-offensive?
Well, I initially read it as inoffensive, but I definitely see where you're coming from; and I mean that sincerely.
I think I'll just sit quietly and listen a bit more than I talk... well... for a while, at least.
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Oh well, I guess I'll go play dnd, which is more than what is seems like all these bitter grognards are doing anyway (I'm still wondering why they are putting in so much effort into 4th edition, an edition they probbaly won't play, I mean it can take hours to stat up and prepare for a 3.x game [I know I've been there], so really get cracking, don't you guys have some dnd to play rather than badwrongfun to pronounce?
This kind of response does not help. Civility has to come from all sides.
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And so another 4e thread collapses in acrimony. I'm in the odd position of being offended by everyone while not really giving a s%%~ either way. I'll wait until I get the books in a few months.
EDIT: To be honest, 4e actually sounds, from what I am hearing, pretty good. I have some misgivings, but all the "End of the DM/End of Roleplaying" stuff seems wide of the mark to me - that is down to the players, not the game. I'm more bothered by possible "flavour loss" for want of a better term - the little things that made D&D what it is (to me) - hand spells named after Bigby, half-orcs and gnomes, a rich selection of spells rather than generic blasters.
This kind of response does not help. Civility has to come from all sides.
Why do you insist on patrolling these boards looking for offense and incivility? All criticism is inherently offensive to someone, and definitely in the eye of the beholder, as Andrew Turner has shown. Enforced civility is not civility at all. Stop looking for offense in every post and just deal with the fact that some people are not civil, have strong opinions and will state them regardless. Being outraged and offended at every second post is not virtuous not does it place you on a higher moral plane, as you seem to imagine.
I'm interested in hearing all opinions, no matter how offensive, incoherent or "uncivil" they may be.
And so another 4e thread collapses in acrimony. I'm in the odd position of being offended by everyone while not really giving a s#&# either way. I'll wait until I get the books in a few months.
Luckily, this site suffers from only a minute percentage of people not gifted enough to be able to avoid personally insulting others when trying to make a point.
"Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a (speaker fills in the blank with something demonstrating their own limitations)..."
Let's show them how it's done.
"Aubrey, whatever system you decide on, I choose the other. That said, you're a deft wit and your writing is incisive."
Now, when Aubrey reads that and says to himself, "Ug, this insufferable twit is at it again," he'll have the civility to keep it to himself and reply "Indeed" or not respond at all, as if he'd missed the post altogether.
And that, my friends, is how you keep the peace. ;)
And so another 4e thread collapses in acrimony. I'm in the odd position of being offended by everyone while not really giving a s#@~ either way. I'll wait until I get the books in a few months.
EDIT: To be honest, 4e actually sounds, from what I am hearing, pretty good. I have some misgivings, but all the "End of the DM/End of Roleplaying" stuff seems wide of the mark to me - that is down to the players, not the game. I'm more bothered by possible "flavour loss" for want of a better term - the little things that made D&D what it is (to me) - hand spells named after Bigby, half-orcs and gnomes, a rich selection of spells rather than generic blasters.
There are still a handful (hah!) of Bigby spells (I can think of two off-hand; ok ok, I'm donw with puns). I also saw a few Mordenkainens, and I think some Leomunds popping around in the Wizard's spell list as well. Gnomes are still kicking around in the back of the MM ... hopefully they'll get a full writeup like Warforged did on the DDI soon, although I guess that might wait for the PHB II. Later this month the DDI has an installment for more Illusionist flavored Wizards, although I don't know how far it will go.
Cheers! :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Is it just me or are we growing into a generation of easily offended people who take no responsibility for the offense we cause? I blame the Internet. The internet teaches people that they can say whatever they want without real life ramifications no matter who it upsets. It also seems to teach them that when people say something you mildly disagree with the appropriate response is to read all sorts of other stuff into it and start a bloody flame war.
Grow a thicker skin and learn to listen to people's ideas and intentions without letting the conversation degenerate into a backseat-of-daddy's-car round of who snuck their hand down the middle of the seat first. Most people are here to talk about a game they love and want to share.
Here's a suggestion. Before you post, pretend the person you are talking to matters to you and you don't want to lose their friendship. Just for fun.
Luckily, this site suffers from only a minute percentage of people not gifted enough to be able to avoid dipersonally insulting others when trying to make a point.
"Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a (speaker fills in the blank with something demonstrating their own limitations)..."
Let's show them how it's done.
"Aubrey, whatever system you decide on, I choose the other. That said, you're an deft wit and your writing is incisive."
Now, when Aubrey reads that and says to himself, "Ug, this insufferable twit is at it again," he'll have the civility to keep it to himself and reply "Indeed" or not respond at all, as if he'd missed the post altogether.
And that, my friends, is how you keep the peace. ;)
Biting your tongue and ignoring inflamatory posts are indeed some of the best options available. Attempting civil engagement is another option, although it tends to lead to tongue loosening. Part of the problem is this board suffers from a few posters whose sole intent is to stir trouble and incite flames, not that I'd name any names (those who read here often can likely come up with a few on their own.)
After a while, it does become difficult to always keep your cool. I've been drawn to post some angry responses myself (I mostly try to edit those out, and always feel bad about it afterwards:()
Can't we all just get along?
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Being outraged and offended at every second post is not virtuous not does it place you on a higher moral plane, as you seem to imagine.
Thanks for the insult - that helps.
I want to talk about 4e - that is why I am on this board. I did not come here to be flamed and degraded for playing a freaking game.
I am not, do not seek to be, and do not believe I should be on a higher moral plane. I am just sick of this place spiraling down into crap-o-sphere.
Why is it such a bad thing to call foul when Lisa and company have been asking us to knock it off with the offensive derogatory comments for months now?
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Grow a thicker skin and learn to listen to people's ideas and intentions without letting the conversation degenerate into a backseat-of-daddy's-car round of who snuck their hand down the middle of the seat first. Most people are here to talk about a game they love and want to share.
I agree completely. The internet is NOT serious business, as much as it might seem so. If you find yourself getting angry about someone's posts, it's probably time to take a break.
No, it's not right that someone can post horrible, insulting things on the Internet, but that's just life. There are some awesome people (many of which are on these boards, might I add, even with all the 4E vitriol flying every which way, at the end of the day, this is still one of the nicer, more polite communities on the web), but there are also some horrible people. At the end of the day, insulting, horrible posts just reflect poorly on the poster.
Maybe I have an easier time of it because I don't generally hold very strong opinions, but taking a step back from the boards every now and again and doing something you love (perhaps building a new awesome character and writing a story about him?) might help stop the blood from boiling.
Can't we all just get along?
Yes! And eventually, I'm sure everything will settle down here. The whole 4E vs. PRPG debate will disappear. I'm betting on it!
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And so another 4e thread collapses in acrimony. I'm in the odd position of being offended by everyone while not really giving a s#&# either way. I'll wait until I get the books in a few months.Luckily, this site suffers from only a minute percentage of people not gifted enough to be able to avoid dipersonally insulting others when trying to make a point.
"Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a (speaker fills in the blank with something demonstrating their own limitations)..."
Let's show them how it's done.
"Aubrey, whatever system you decide on, I choose the other. That said, you're an deft wit and your writing is incisive."
Now, when Aubrey reads that and says to himself, "Ug, this insufferable twit is at it again," he'll have the civility to keep it to himself and reply "Indeed" or not respond at all, as if he'd missed the post altogether.
And that, my friends, is how you keep the peace. ;)
You insufferable twit!
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Grow a thicker skin and learn to listen to people's ideas and intentions without letting the conversation degenerate into a backseat-of-daddy's-car round of who snuck their hand down the middle of the seat first. Most people are here to talk about a game they love and want to share.
Growing a thicker skin is not the answer. Yes, people should be patient and try not to be offended. The other half of the solution is for people to actually adhere to the rules of this board and chill with the mud slinging.
It is easy to let a slight pass by but a barrage of flaming rocks is intolerable. I can't even begin to be able to decipher the actual issue when a post is just filled with bile.
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And so another 4e thread collapses in acrimony. I'm in the odd position of being offended by everyone while not really giving a s#@~ either way. I'll wait until I get the books in a few months.
EDIT: To be honest, 4e actually sounds, from what I am hearing, pretty good. I have some misgivings, but all the "End of the DM/End of Roleplaying" stuff seems wide of the mark to me - that is down to the players, not the game. I'm more bothered by possible "flavour loss" for want of a better term - the little things that made D&D what it is (to me) - hand spells named after Bigby, half-orcs and gnomes, a rich selection of spells rather than generic blasters.
There are still a handful (hah!) of Bigby spells (I can think of two off-hand; ok ok, I'm donw with puns). I also saw a few Mordenkainens, and I think some Leomunds popping around in the Wizard's spell list as well. Gnomes are still kicking around in the back of the MM ... hopefully they'll get a full writeup like Warforged did on the DDI soon, although I guess that might wait for the PHB II. Later this month the DDI has an installment for more Illusionist flavored Wizards, although I don't know how far it will go.
Cheers! :)
Even better! To clarify - have they done warforged as a PC race yet?
Even better! To clarify - have they done warforged as a PC race yet?Yes they have.
And quite well indeed! I kinda wish the races already in the PHB were given so much space (although the PHB is already extremely freakin huge!)
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I agree completely. The internet is NOT serious business, as much as it might seem so. If you find yourself getting angry about someone's posts, it's probably time to take a break.
Except that this part of the Net actually is a business. This is not some unmoderated usenet group. This is the place where Paizo customers come to talk. If this place becomes like the Net's wild zones it will reflect very poorly on Paizo.
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Except that this part of the Net actually is a business. This is not some unmoderated usenet group. This is the place where Paizo customers come to talk. If this place becomes like the Net's wild zones it will reflect very poorly on Paizo.
But then it is Paizo's job to moderate the forums, not ours. Don't get me wrong here, it would be nice if everyone could keep civil and respect each other, but that's not going to happen. Many people are jerks. And even those that aren't have their jerk moments.
We can do what we can to encourage civility by being civil to one-another, but we can't force people to be civil. We don't have the authority to do so. After all, who are we to enforce proper messageboard behaviour?
I know that the Paizo employees don't want to moderate the boards full-time because they have enough work to do already. And, if you were to ask me, I don't think these boards need serious moderation. There are some insults thrown here and there, but this is the Internet, after all.
In the end, all we can do is treat each other politely and with civility and hope to lead by example.
...If you find yourself getting angry about someone's posts, it's probably time to take a break.
Agreed.
If more people managed to stop responding to every slight (and walking away from the debate would work great), things would be a lot less nasty.
Edition bashing is kind of lame. Cheerleading for one is equally so.
Can't we all just get along?
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...If you find yourself getting angry about someone's posts, it's probably time to take a break.Agreed.
If more people managed to stop responding to every slight (and walking away from the debate would work great), things would be a lot less nasty.
So those that offend can just post until their fingers bleed and anyone that does not like it should leave? How would that make it any less nasty?
Is it just me or are we growing into a generation of easily offended people who take no responsibility for the offense we cause? I blame the Internet. The internet teaches people that they can say whatever they want without real life ramifications no matter who it upsets. It also seems to teach them that when people say something you mildly disagree with the appropriate response is to read all sorts of other stuff into it and start a bloody flame war.
Grow a thicker skin and learn to listen to people's ideas and intentions without letting the conversation degenerate into a backseat-of-daddy's-car round of who snuck their hand down the middle of the seat first. Most people are here to talk about a game they love and want to share.
Here's a suggestion. Before you post, pretend the person you are talking to matters to you and you don't want to lose their friendship. Just for fun.
Harumph.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Harumph.Is it just me or are we growing into a generation of easily offended people who take no responsibility for the offense we cause? I blame the Internet. The internet teaches people that they can say whatever they want without real life ramifications no matter who it upsets. It also seems to teach them that when people say something you mildly disagree with the appropriate response is to read all sorts of other stuff into it and start a bloody flame war.
Grow a thicker skin and learn to listen to people's ideas and intentions without letting the conversation degenerate into a backseat-of-daddy's-car round of who snuck their hand down the middle of the seat first. Most people are here to talk about a game they love and want to share.
Here's a suggestion. Before you post, pretend the person you are talking to matters to you and you don't want to lose their friendship. Just for fun.
I have no idea what 'Harumph' means so I'm going to assume it is an insult and launch a spew of bile at you ... any minute now ... wait for it ...
'Harumph,' is after bein' an ancient word o' dwarven origin. It be meanin', roughly speaking, "I can't be disputin' the reality afore me but I'm plannin' on being annoyed at reality all the same."
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[THREADJACK]
I can guess--I know what a munchkin is (Wizard of Oz and Dunkin' Donuts, right)
*sigh* I am SO MUCH the Dunkin' Donuts kind of munchkin ... nom nom nom!
[/THREADJACK]Well 1st and 3.5 DMGs have random dungeon generators and random monster tables. Its technically possible to play a game in those editions as well - though I'd not really consider them to be on par with the true D&D experience of playing with a DM in a well crafted adventure.
Yes, and to be fair, I've also done this a number of times with AD&D. I also do this when learning any RPG in some form or another to work out rules and such. In fact, Flying Buffalo did a whole lot of solitaire work with its Tunnels and Trolls aspect. Most enjoyable, but death was cheap and easy ...