RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I tend to over give treasure in my games so I know I need to brush up on this topic.
I understand the wealth by level tables, my question is about armor and weapons and their enchantments.
At what levels should I start expecting to see/give out the different levels of arms/armor enchantments?
For example, when should a PC typically have a +1 sword? What about a +2, +3, +4 or +5? What about effective enchantments, not just the enchantment to attack and damage, like +1 flaming?
As an example, what should we expect a 10th level Fighter to have by way of weapons and armor? What about other classes?
On a similar topic, what about other items with straight numerical bonuses to specific stats? For example, ring of protection or cloak of resistance?
PCs generally shouldn't have a single item worth more than 1/4 of their WBL and almost never one worth more than 1/2.
I'll give the fighter a sword worth maybe half his WBL, but other characters I'll make wait a bit.
For most melee characters armor worth 1/4 of their Bab is about right. Stat items should be around here too.
Rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor, and Cloaks of Protection I'll usually stick to around 1/6 to 1/4 WBL.
A Fighter might spend 1/2 of his WBL on a Weapon, 1/4 on armour and protective gear, 1/6 on a belt of Str.
WBL is just the suggested value for standard fantasy games; feel free to place treasure however it works for you.
The following uses the WBL chart which states that it is for gearing up characters who start above 1st level who are able to distribute their wealth in whatever fashion they desire.
Expectations made by the are that a balanced character should spend roughly 25% of their wealth on permanent magic weapons, and a like amount on permanent defensive items. At level 4 the suggested wealth for a character is 6000. A quarter of that is 1500, which is just over the cost of +1 light armors, around the cost of +1 medium armors, and a bit under the cost of +1 heavy armors. At level 5 the suggested wealth for a character is 10500. A quarter of that is 2625, just over the cost of a +1 weapon. So for a balanced character it should be expected that the character have picked these things up by level 4 and 5 respectively. A martial character might wish to distribute his wealth closer to 33% for weapons and a like amount for armor, thus being able to afford both of these easily by level 4. As such I would recommend presenting +1 armor around level 2 to 3 and +1 weapons around levels 3 to 4 for warrior types, and comparable weapons and armors aimed at non-full-BAB classes a level or so later with low level gear better fitting thier area of expertise earlier.
Creating a fighter at level 10 using standard WBL you should likely see a +3 primary weapon, a +1 secondary weapon, a ring of protection +2, and amulet of natural armor +1, a +3 clock of resistance, a +2 armor, a +2 shield, and a belt of +4 to 1 physical ability or +2 to 2; give or take a few items and altering others to suit the fighter's tastes, not to mention a few potions or other consumables.*
*Note I did this this math in a couple of minutes on a post-it at my work desk, it may or may not be entirely accurate. If it is off, I apoligize.
As for the rings of protection and cloaks of resistance I would lump them in with armor and other protective devices, which for a balanced character is again, 25% of suggested wealth by level, perhaps edging on a a third to a half for more combat oriented characters, thus assume non-martial types might be a bit less inclined to yearn for weapons and armor and more inclined to do so on misc. wounderous items and consumables such as wands and scrolls. That isn't to say they don't want them at all.
The best advice I have for figuring this out is to examine what you intend to have the PC's battle, what their character sheets look like before having gear, decide how difficult that is, then decide how much gear you wish to give in order to scale the difficulty of the game and then divide that wealth into categories such as 25% into armor, 25% into weapons, and so forth to make sure there is a balanced share for all. Obviously you likely won't want those numbers to be exact and you might have to alter it depending on how heavily crafting focused your group is or if you want to throw in some fun and flavorful though slightly less mechanically powerful treasure items.
Whew that took a lot longer than I had intended.
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My easy rule of thumb:
i.e. 9th level adventurers should expect to have (at most) +3 Weapon (including non-enhancement bonuses, a la flaming, keen et al), and +3 Armor/Shield.
That's not to say everyone has every slot filled with maximum power items, but that's the upper limit for baseline, at least in my experience.
My easy rule of thumb:
i.e. 9th level adventurers should expect to have (at most) +3 Weapon (including non-enhancement bonuses, a la flaming, keen et al), and +3 Armor/Shield.
That's not to say everyone has every slot filled with maximum power items, but that's the upper limit for baseline, at least in my experience.
But this would mean you would never get a +10 weapon.
But this would mean you would never get a +10 weapon.My easy rule of thumb:
i.e. 9th level adventurers should expect to have (at most) +3 Weapon (including non-enhancement bonuses, a la flaming, keen et al), and +3 Armor/Shield.
That's not to say everyone has every slot filled with maximum power items, but that's the upper limit for baseline, at least in my experience.
It's actually not a bad rule of thumb, if you remember that we're talking averages here. So, no single classification should be more than +25% of the 1/3 of level. A fighter might indeed, at 20th level, have a +10 (which would be 1/3 of 20 = 7.66, or 8. 8 + 25% = 10).
In other words, average bonuses should probably be about 1/3rd of level for a quick and dirty rule of thumb, and say one object that's +25% of that.
Mmmm, the good old 1/4 restriction. Or as I like to call it; the "Kick the fighter while he is down, and laugh at his pitiful attempt to be useful, while no other class feels any effect from this because balance is a joke anyway"-rule.
Because the main worry in this game is not that the casters can shatter the world by a snap of their fingers, and end even ALP+4 encounters in a single round. It is that the fighter does his only function well enough to warrant a spot in the party.
Hmm, what is that? Why YES, this is a pet peeve of mine. 3.5 and PF have turned me off martial characters in general. But I am enough of a masochist to play my favorite fluff class (paladin) anyway, for some reason.
Mmmm, the good old 1/4 restriction. Or as I like to call it; the "Kick the fighter while he is down, and laugh at his pitiful attempt to be useful, while no other class feels any effect from this because balance is a joke anyway"-rule.
Because the main worry in this game is not that the casters can shatter the world by a snap of their fingers, and end even ALP+4 encounters in a single round. It is that the fighter does his only function well enough to warrant a spot in the party.
Hmm, what is that? Why YES, this is a pet peeve of mine. 3.5 and PF have turned me off martial characters in general. But I am enough of a masochist to play my favorite fluff class (paladin) anyway, for some reason.
I would so love to run a campaign for you and others with this mindset. I'm willing to bet you'd change your opinion fast. No house rules. No tricks. Just a GM who knows the rules and writes adventures that challenge all the characters/players. Honestly, if you came into my game with that perception, you would find that you are in for a world of hurt. Your characters would be dead quite often and not because I am targeting them as GM. So far, the character with the most deaths in my campaign: wizard (3). The character with the least number of deaths: the fighter (0).
Going with the balanced approach between offense, defense, and utility isn't a bad idea. But I'd add another aspect to that for better balanced loot distribution.
Include items for the martial characters (weapons, armor, utility items that mainly help them) at least 2x as often as caster-focused items. 1e and 2e's treasure tables were tilted away from miscellaneous magic (the wondrous items), wands, and staffs and in favor of consumables like potions and scrolls, weapons, and armor. 3e tables, being based more on cash value, don't really seem to reflect that nearly as well.
Let the equipment flow to the characters who use equipment. Let the characters who can rely on spells pay for their equipment.
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But this would mean you would never get a +10 weapon.My easy rule of thumb:
i.e. 9th level adventurers should expect to have (at most) +3 Weapon (including non-enhancement bonuses, a la flaming, keen et al), and +3 Armor/Shield.
That's not to say everyone has every slot filled with maximum power items, but that's the upper limit for baseline, at least in my experience.
True, the 20th level Fighter may not have a +10 weapon, but there's nothing stopping him (in the above scenario) from having, say, a +5 Keen, Vicious weapon. Or even a +5 Holy, Flaming weapon. Like I said, this is a quick & dirty rule of thumb, not intended to match the #'s 100%.
At least for judging whether a particular weapon/armor/etc is overpowered, underpowered, or (like Goldilocks) just right for a given level of adventurer, it works.
Here is a 10th level fighter:
Standard WBL - 62,000gp.
+2 Full Plate 6000
+1 Composite (+5) longbow - 3000
+1 Shortsword - 2000
+1 Shock Greatsword - 8000
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 - 4,000
Belt of Physical might Str +2, Con +2, - 10000
Amulet of natural armor +2 - 8000
Cloak of resistance +3 - 9000
Ring of Protection +2 - 8000
58K With 4,000 left over for cold iron and silver weapons, potions, and various other consumables.
I would say you could bump up the armor to +3 or make the belt +2 to all physical stats, but I really wouldn't go past that. I don't think most characters should have items worth more then 20% of WBL.*
*The exception is some miscellaneous items that are rarely useful, but very expensive.
[Note: Values rounded up and down because I'm lazy. This character also lacks any items to aid his movement, skills, or resistances. I feel that these items are probably more optimized then the character would have ended up with organically, but not too min/maxed.
I would so love to run a campaign for you and others with this mindset. I'm willing to bet you'd change your opinion fast. No house rules. No tricks. Just a GM who knows the rules and writes adventures that challenge all the characters/players. Honestly, if you came into my game with that perception, you would find that you are in for a world of hurt. Your characters would be dead quite often and not because I am targeting them as GM. So far, the character with the most deaths in my campaign: wizard (3). The character with the least number of deaths: the fighter (0).Mmmm, the good old 1/4 restriction. Or as I like to call it; the "Kick the fighter while he is down, and laugh at his pitiful attempt to be useful, while no other class feels any effect from this because balance is a joke anyway"-rule.
Because the main worry in this game is not that the casters can shatter the world by a snap of their fingers, and end even ALP+4 encounters in a single round. It is that the fighter does his only function well enough to warrant a spot in the party.
Hmm, what is that? Why YES, this is a pet peeve of mine. 3.5 and PF have turned me off martial characters in general. But I am enough of a masochist to play my favorite fluff class (paladin) anyway, for some reason.
Implying I don't know the rules, and that I don't know how to challenge all classes? Not hard, but 9 out of 10 "effective caster killing tactics" drips with molten cheese at most times.
The overarching point here is that a fighter restricted to a +2 weapon will have no chance of breaking through damage reductions other than "magic", and thus be rather gimped. While any caster class will not lose out outside being restricted to a +4 to caster stat headband, rather than the coveted +6. Unless you force the wizard to waste several thousand on a +2 dagger or some such nonsense.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Kamelguru:
I thank you for you points, but that doesn't help me answer the question and is far off of the topic. Would you mind moving your thoughts and discussion elsewhere? You seem to know what you are talking about, and I appreciate your enthusiasm to post here. I just want to keep this on topic, and the topic is wealth by level and not which class is more effective or which one you would like to play more.
Thank you.
To everyone else:
Thank you so much. That helps me a great deal and puts my mind at ease. I learned a good deal, and I appreciate this communities willingness to jump in and answer questions.
I was worried there were going to be greatly varying opinions on this, as I couldn't really find much in the rulebooks. Everyone here seemed to have similar answers, and that helped a great deal.
Thank you again.
Why would the fighter be restricted to +2 weapons and then the GM throw creatures that...I would so love to run a campaign for you and others with this mindset. I'm willing to bet you'd change your opinion fast. No house rules. No tricks. Just a GM who knows the rules and writes adventures that challenge all the characters/players. Honestly, if you came into my game with that perception, you would find that you are in for a world of hurt. Your characters would be dead quite often and not because I am targeting them as GM. So far, the character with the most deaths in my campaign: wizard (3). The character with the least number of deaths: the fighter (0).Mmmm, the good old 1/4 restriction. Or as I like to call it; the "Kick the fighter while he is down, and laugh at his pitiful attempt to be useful, while no other class feels any effect from this because balance is a joke anyway"-rule.
Because the main worry in this game is not that the casters can shatter the world by a snap of their fingers, and end even ALP+4 encounters in a single round. It is that the fighter does his only function well enough to warrant a spot in the party.
Hmm, what is that? Why YES, this is a pet peeve of mine. 3.5 and PF have turned me off martial characters in general. But I am enough of a masochist to play my favorite fluff class (paladin) anyway, for some reason.
Implying I don't know the rules, and that I don't know how to challenge all classes? Not hard, but 9 out of 10 "effective caster killing tactics" drips with molten cheese at most times.
The overarching point here is that a fighter restricted to a +2 weapon will have no chance of breaking through damage reductions other than "magic", and thus be rather gimped. While any caster class will not lose out outside being restricted to a +4 to caster stat headband, rather than the coveted +6. Unless you force the wizard to waste several thousand on a +2 dagger or some such nonsense.
I remember this one 3.5 campaign I was in. I was a Warlock and we had a psion and a couple of others. The psion won every battle more or less by himself except for one. I was Dispelled most of the bosses buffs on the first round and readied actions to counter spell there after. The psion said if I hadn't done that he would had to have. After rolling 3 nat 20's in a row on my counter spell checks I drew agro and got beaten to a bloody pulp.
Kamelguru:
I thank you for you points, but that doesn't help me answer the question and is far off of the topic. Would you mind moving your thoughts and discussion elsewhere? You seem to know what you are talking about, and I appreciate your enthusiasm to post here. I just want to keep this on topic, and the topic is wealth by level and not which class is more effective or which one you would like to play more.
Thank you.
To everyone else:
Thank you so much. That helps me a great deal and puts my mind at ease. I learned a good deal, and I appreciate this communities willingness to jump in and answer questions.
I was worried there were going to be greatly varying opinions on this, as I couldn't really find much in the rulebooks. Everyone here seemed to have similar answers, and that helped a great deal.
Thank you again.
There is no fixed answer as to when people should be getting X items. In Kingmaker, you can find a +3 weapon at lv4, while you won't find a decent magical sword at ALL in Serpent Skull. Both are published adventures.
Personally, I prefer to let the players craft. Makes the wizard less powerful, as his feats go towards crafting, and allows the other PCs to wield uncommon weapons and not be shafted. Sure, some people think you grow "too powerful" but there is a limiter; 1/3 lv on base enhancements, meaning you need to be lv9 to make a sword+3. Sure, you can make a Keen, Flaming Burst, Holy Sword+3, but that takes a LOT of money and about half a year of downtime, so it won't happen in-game.
This way, most people get the stuff they need to be effective, and no arbitrary nerfs occurs due to item availability or other nonsense. Sure, some people think that it takes away some archaic "feeling of wonder", but that has no place in a game that uses items as a balancing factor.
I posted a chart of enchantments by level a while back, but it wasn't based on the 25% rule. The only issue with it (that I see) is it means in the mid-upper levels characters are swapping out weapons a lot (if they want to keep building up their primary weapon, that is) on their way to getting that +10 weapon at high levels.
I also am not sure how to classify some of the "defensive" items in order to categorize them according to which bucket they fall into. I generally think anything that adds to armor class is a "defensive" item, but is that right? I really don't know. Good luck!
In Kingmaker, you can find a +3 weapon at lv4, while you won't find a decent magical sword at ALL in Serpent Skull. Both are published adventures.Personally, I prefer to let the players craft. Makes the wizard less powerful, as his feats go towards crafting, and allows the other PCs to wield uncommon weapons and not be shafted. Sure, some people think you grow "too powerful" but there is a limiter; 1/3 lv on base enhancements, meaning you need to be lv9 to make a sword+3. Sure, you can make a Keen, Flaming Burst, Holy Sword+3, but that takes a LOT of money and about half a year of downtime, so it won't happen in-game.
First of all WHERE in the kingmaker you can find a +3 weapon? I am a player in kingmaker (just hit level 6, second book) and we haven't found a +2 weapon yet.
Also i agree on the crafting thing.|
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In Kingmaker, you can find a +3 weapon at lv4, while you won't find a decent magical sword at ALL in Serpent Skull. Both are published adventures.Personally, I prefer to let the players craft. Makes the wizard less powerful, as his feats go towards crafting, and allows the other PCs to wield uncommon weapons and not be shafted. Sure, some people think you grow "too powerful" but there is a limiter; 1/3 lv on base enhancements, meaning you need to be lv9 to make a sword+3. Sure, you can make a Keen, Flaming Burst, Holy Sword+3, but that takes a LOT of money and about half a year of downtime, so it won't happen in-game.
First of all WHERE in the kingmaker you can find a +3 weapon? I am a player in kingmaker (just hit level 6, second book) and we haven't found a +2 weapon yet.
Also i agree on the crafting thing.
not to spoil anything, but he's probably talking about a +2 xyz Bane weapon, rather than a +3 enhancement.
As far as I remember, that's the most powerful treasure weapon in the first two adventures
"For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins."
That's not the entire statement from the Gamemastery section. . .
Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
Fighters spend a lot more on armor and weapons than other magic items and disposable items. So it makes a lot more sense for a fighter to have a fairly powerful weapon or weapons.
I believe the old 3.5 Players Handbook 2 stated that physical classes that primarily use weapons should probably spend up to about half their character's wealth on weapons.
In Kingmaker, you can find a +3 weapon at lv4, while you won't find a decent magical sword at ALL in Serpent Skull. Both are published adventures.Personally, I prefer to let the players craft. Makes the wizard less powerful, as his feats go towards crafting, and allows the other PCs to wield uncommon weapons and not be shafted. Sure, some people think you grow "too powerful" but there is a limiter; 1/3 lv on base enhancements, meaning you need to be lv9 to make a sword+3. Sure, you can make a Keen, Flaming Burst, Holy Sword+3, but that takes a LOT of money and about half a year of downtime, so it won't happen in-game.
First of all WHERE in the kingmaker you can find a +3 weapon? I am a player in kingmaker (just hit level 6, second book) and we haven't found a +2 weapon yet.
Also i agree on the crafting thing.not to spoil anything, but he's probably talking about a +2 xyz Bane weapon, rather than a +3 enhancement.
As far as I remember, that's the most powerful treasure weapon in the first two adventures
Oh yes the map-treasure weapon, i know about it (we get the map at last session in which we also level up and we are now 6th), our DM told us